Hello and welcome
to Issues and Answers
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My name is Melissa
Summers and if you have Issues,
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you know what? We have answers.
In fact, the Lord has those
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answers. Issues and Answers
has a committee of Christian
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counselors that we can turn
to by the prompting of the Holy
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Spirit to help with those issues
and to get those answers, Okay.
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So make sure if you
would like you can e-mail me at
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melissa.summers@3abn.org
and later on I will give you the
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actual address if you would like
to mail in you issues, okay.
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For today's topic, we are going
to be talking about separation
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of church and state.
Attorney James Standish who is
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the executive director of
the North American Religious
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Liberty Association has agreed
to join us and I am just so
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thankful. Now we have had you
on with us before and I had to
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have you back. Well
thanks so much for having
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me and it's
great seeing you again.
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Now this whole thing with
separation of church and state
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let's just dig right into
because when I was on the air
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in Atlanta I had people call
in saying, All right what is the
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problem? There's no such thing
as separation of church and
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state. Who needs it? You know
the moral decline of society is
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at such a low ebb we need
this. So what is the argument?
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Sure, It's a good question.
Some people have said that the
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founding fathers, those
instrumental in writing the
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constitution and also bill
of rights and passing it had no
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intention of separating church
and state. Other people say
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that was absolutely their
intent. But I think the first
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step in understanding
separation of church and state
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is to take a step a little
bit back and know one thing from
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the beginning. Different people
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mean very
different things when they
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say separation of church
and state. So sometimes the old
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saying is, we are a people
separated by a common language.
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We have a term that one person
thinks means one thing and
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another person thinks means
another and because of that
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we can have
significant disagreements and
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misunderstandings. Different
people mean different things by
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this term. In think importantly
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also it's good
to know where this
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term came from, the history, a
little bit of history to sort of
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put it in context. Actually
Roger Williams is the first
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person who, there may have been
earlier references to this idea
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but he was certainly the first
person who wrote about this
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to any great extent. You
remember Roger Williams was the
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early colonist who left, he
actually didn't leave of his own
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accord, he was asked to leave or
forced to leave because of his
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religious beliefs and he
eventually went and founded the
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colony that eventually became
the state of Rhode Island.
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He wrote about the separating
a wall between the garden of
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the state and the garden of the
church; this idea that the two
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things were separate.
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So this man left and founded
this colony based on religious
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persecution that
he was receiving.
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Exactly, and like all people in
history if you look into their
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lives carefully, he wasn't
a perfect person like anybody
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else but he had some very
interesting ideas. He treated
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the native American population
very fairly and equitably and
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he also believed in religious
liberty. And so Rhode Island
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became the prototype for
the spread of religious liberty
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throughout the
colonies and eventually becoming
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established across the United
States. So that was where this
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idea got started. Thomas
Jefferson refers the wall
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of separation of church and
state in a letter that's been by
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many historical scholars
viewed as being a reflection of
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Jefferson's perspective on what
the ban on establishing religion
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in the federal constitution
means. Now some people have said
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if you don't mind me going into
a little bit more history, but
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history is important here,
have said, why do we care what
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Jefferson says about the
first amendment? He wasn't the
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person who wrote and he wasn't
the person who got it passed.
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Of course, that's true, but
it's also true that the first
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amendment's religious
provision are based on the
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provisions that were established
in the colony of Virginia and
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Jefferson is the one who wrote
and got those passed. So if you
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like you have Roger
Williams' ideas which
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eventually become reflected
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in what Jefferson writes and
also is instrumental in passing
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in Virginia. In fact, if you
go to Thomas Jefferson's grave,
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he only lists three things
that he accomplished in life:
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writing the Declaration
of Independence, founding the
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University of Virginia, I'm
a graduate of the University of
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Virginia, I had to get that out
there, I did my master's there,
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and then also writing the bill
of religious liberty for the
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State of Virginia. Then
that particular bill becomes the
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prototype for the federal free
exercise of religion and the
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ban on establishing religion
that's in the first amendment.
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So that gives a little bit of
a historical perspective where
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the term came from, how it
got into the constitution but
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it doesn't necessarily describe
what different people view and
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how different people read it.
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Right because I'm just thinking
an everyday person like me
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watching and it's like okay
what's wrong with separation
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of church and state? Why is
there such a big issue? What is
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the problem. We need God in our
society. That's the problem; we
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are taking God out
of everything so...
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I think that's a very good
question. Of course, we need
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God in everything. I'm a
Christian and I believe that the
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solutions to the vast
majority of our problems both
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individually but also nationally
come straight out of the Bible.
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It doesn't mean that the
solution is the government
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enforcing the Bible. But it
means that most of our problems
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come out of individual behavior
that can be changed by the
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gospel and by the work of Christ
in individual lives and it goes
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from everything from substance
abuse through to unwanted
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pregnancies, you name it. Many
of the other social problems
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that we have come directly
out of people not following the
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guidelines set out in the Bible
and not having that on their
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life. Some people have gone so
far and said, you know this idea
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of separation of church and
state, it's what stopping us
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from being a moral or a good
nation. I think you'd have to
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be very, very careful making
that statement. It's true that
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some people's interpretation of
separation of church and state
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means including religion from
the public square. But other
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people have a view of religious
separation of church and state
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that is not that broad or
that exclusive of religion.
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Okay. Just hearing it my mind
gets confused back in that same
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line. What is the problem?
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Okay. Well let's go through sort
of the range of interpretations
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of what separation of
church and state means.
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Okay because I tell you the
first thing that comes to mind
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is you know in the United States
all these different little signs
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about 10 commandments, post the
10 commandments and so forth.
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Why can't we pray in schools?
You know, again, I don't know
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again I don't know what's going
on in other parts of the world,
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but you know just based right
here with what we are and what
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I know. Sure,
let's talk about the
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American experience because for
two reasons: One here we are in
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the United States but also the
United States is for the time
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being the most
powerful nation on earth.
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So we're like the
template everybody is watching.
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Exactly. It doesn't mean every
one agrees with the way it's
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handled in the U.S. but it means
it's not an insignificant bottle
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In the U.S., we have two
predominant, different ideas
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on what separation of
church and state means.
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Now keep it simple for me, okay?
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I'm going to keep it
very simple. One idea is that
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separation of church means that
religion is essentially excluded
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from the public square in any
way, shape or form. That's the
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perspective that says that
we have to get rid of "In God We
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Trust" as our national motto,
that children should not be
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saying one nation "under God" in
the public schools and so forth.
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That's what you might want to
call the far secularist ideas.
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On the other side you have
people on the other extreme
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who think that it's perfectly
acceptable for the government
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to take religious perspectives,
positions, and actually advance
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those particular perspectives.
Now let's take the 10
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commandments as a good example.
Because on the far left, you
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might want to say, the
secularist side of it on the
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the extremists that say you can
never have the 10 commandments
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anyway because this is religious
and you can't put it anywhere
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on government property and so
forth. On the far right are the
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extreme religious side of things
that say the government can post
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this anywhere, they can put it
as the sole religious document.
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We should have recognition that
our laws are based on the 10
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commandments and all these very
explicit endorsements of this as
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a particular religious
perspective. In the middle,
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because there is a middle,
in any debate are those who say
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the 10 commandments as well as
a number of other documents and
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religious teachings do form the
basis of part of our laws. It's
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not all because we come out of
a long legal tradition and the
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British legal tradition as well
as influence by Roman law and
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so forth. But it's part of it.
So if you want to have a display
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about, a government display
about where our laws come from
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it would be totally
inappropriate to leave the
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10 commandment out
because it's part of our legal
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tradition. On the other hand,
to try to pretend that it is the
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predominant law or that this is
the only law that the government
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recognizes or that this is
the only perspective that is
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respected in this country would
also be problematic. Let me give
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you an example where this
balance is reached. You hear a
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lot about it but in the actual
U.S. Supreme Court, my office
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is right across the street from
the Supreme Court so I get to
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see a lot of it, and in
the U.S. Supreme Court the 10
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commandments are represented.
But on the back side or the east
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side of the court you have
Moses with the 10 commandments
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and then to his right is
Confucius. You don't often
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think of Moses and Confucius
together. Not together. On
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his other side is one of
the ancient Roman lawgivers who
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was what we'd refer to as
a pagan, this is pagan Rome.
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So you have that balance.
In truth the 10 commandments is
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part of our legal tradition, but
you know if you start breaking
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down the 10 commandments we
don't have laws against coveting
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we don't have laws that say you
can't have idols, these are all
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part of the 10 commandments.
We don't have laws anymore that
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deal with adultery; we did
in the past but we don't anymore
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typically and we don't have laws
that say you can't take God's
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name in vain, blasphemy laws.
So when you start going through
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the 10 commandments there
are only about two or three that
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actually are reflected in that
civil law. So you have to be
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honest about that. So there's
this wide extreme on that
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particular issue. Prayer in
school is another good example.
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Or religion in school in
general. On the far left any
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kind of association
with religion, any kind of
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recognition of the importance
of religion in society is
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considered a violation of
separation of church and state.
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On the far right people feel
that public school should teach
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religion and particularly they
should teach OUR religion, or
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at least our
particular version of religion.
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Yes right and whoever's
teaching that particular day.
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Exactly. Of course, it's
one thing to say you want prayer
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in school. It's another thing to
say if your a Christian and your
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kid went to school and the
teacher was a Hindu. Would you
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be happy with them doing Hindu
prayers. Most of us would say
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well I don't know, maybe
not. Maybe we're not so keen on
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prayer in schools when it's a
whole different theology behind
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it. In the middle, there are
groups, and I think that they
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are right, who say first of all
recognizing the importance of
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religion in society is
absolutely appropriate; it's
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part of sociology, it's part
of our history and it's a part
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of our social studies today
and also teaching comparative
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religions, that is, what
different religions believe is
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part of being a
well-rounded educated person.
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I'm sorry. You know hearing all
of this we know there's a left,
00:13:05.98\00:13:11.98
there's a right and there's
a middle, but when we look at
00:13:12.02\00:13:15.46
the decision makers, they're
going beyond all of that.
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We've got, what is it, the free
speech restoration act, you've
00:13:18.60\00:13:22.61
got the faith-based initiatives
and this is just looking through
00:13:22.64\00:13:26.62
the United States and what
comes to my mind is looking
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historically at what has
happened because of this left,
00:13:30.89\00:13:34.59
right, middle separation of
church and state. You know the
00:13:34.63\00:13:38.30
persecutions. I mean, you
look back to the history of Rome
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and where that went and
now you look at the Vatican
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which is a symbol of church
and state. I mean the Vatican
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represents the state.
00:13:47.86\00:13:49.21
It's a religious
state. Where are we
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headed? You
brought out a lot of issues
00:13:52.70\00:13:56.09
here, I think very good ones.
One is whenever somebody tells
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me they are opposed to
separation of church and state,
00:13:59.15\00:14:01.54
I say how would you like to live
in Saudi Arabia. They've got no
00:14:01.58\00:14:06.24
separation there. It just
so happens that the combination
00:14:06.27\00:14:09.12
is Islam and the state religion.
00:14:09.16\00:14:11.05
You can't preach
anything that's outside of Islam
00:14:11.09\00:14:13.40
you can't have a church,
no where in the whole of Saudi
00:14:13.43\00:14:16.48
Arabia are you allowed to have
a church. If somebody converts
00:14:16.52\00:14:19.63
from Islam to another faith,
they are subject to the death
00:14:19.66\00:14:23.01
penalty, the whole shebang. You
want that? I think most of us
00:14:23.04\00:14:26.36
realize, no we want some
separation of church and state.
00:14:26.39\00:14:30.61
Let me add, you know
working here at Three Angels
00:14:30.64\00:14:33.07
Broadcasting Network where we
can reach literally almost every
00:14:33.11\00:14:37.67
continent of the world, we know
personally of people that have
00:14:37.70\00:14:42.98
hide, sneak and the whole thing
at risk of death so this is a
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passion and a reality.
00:14:48.29\00:14:49.26
So that's one side of it as you
say. Globally when you look at
00:14:49.27\00:14:53.35
the extreme of combining church
and state or religion and state,
00:14:53.38\00:14:58.05
in that case, this is also very
problematic. In addition, if you
00:14:58.09\00:15:02.73
look at history, even
within Christian nations, the
00:15:02.76\00:15:05.78
combination of church and state
together, for example even in
00:15:05.82\00:15:10.19
Great Britain, but certainly in
countries like Spain where they
00:15:10.22\00:15:14.10
had the inquisition for example
it was a disaster not only for
00:15:14.14\00:15:19.38
the state which disrupted things
and created a lot of civil war
00:15:19.42\00:15:24.63
and so forth but also for
the church. The church was not
00:15:24.66\00:15:27.98
purified was not brought up by
having civil power. It brought
00:15:28.02\00:15:32.82
it down. Even today you know
a lot of people think you know
00:15:32.86\00:15:36.87
in America how do we revitalize
the church? Maybe we need the
00:15:36.91\00:15:41.12
government to help the church in
one way or another. Once again,
00:15:41.16\00:15:44.75
you got to go overseas and see
in countries like for example
00:15:44.78\00:15:48.07
Germany and Great Britain, the
government does help the church
00:15:48.11\00:15:51.20
I mean in Great Britain there's
a state church, it's called the
00:15:51.23\00:15:54.60
Church of England and the queen
is an officer of the church and
00:15:54.64\00:15:57.98
that's why it's called the
Church of England. In Germany,
00:15:58.01\00:16:00.90
the state provides government
funding to both the Lutheran
00:16:00.94\00:16:03.80
and the Catholic churches.
These are not places where
00:16:03.83\00:16:05.92
religion is flourishing.
00:16:05.95\00:16:06.95
Okay so how different is that
from the United States' version
00:16:06.99\00:16:10.25
of faith-based initiatives?
00:16:10.28\00:16:11.99
I think the faith-based
initiative which is also called
00:16:12.03\00:16:15.25
the most controversial part of
that is what we call charitable
00:16:15.29\00:16:19.32
choice where individuals
can direct state funding to
00:16:19.35\00:16:24.46
religious-based organizations.
It's a little bit different from
00:16:24.50\00:16:28.44
the Church of England where
the money just goes from the
00:16:28.47\00:16:31.80
government to the church
and even the government approves
00:16:31.84\00:16:34.75
bishops and so forth. I
mean it's so, so closely tied up
00:16:34.78\00:16:39.24
together. It deals with funding
issues but in the past in the
00:16:39.27\00:16:43.70
U.S. we have said we don't
want the state funding religious
00:16:43.73\00:16:46.97
activities. This is a debate
incidentally that isn't a new
00:16:47.01\00:16:49.93
debate. Once again, you can go
back to the founding generation.
00:16:49.97\00:16:54.56
James Madison and Patrick Henry
fought this issue in Virginia.
00:16:54.60\00:16:59.14
The issue was that Patrick Henry
wanted the government to pay for
00:16:59.18\00:17:03.69
the teachers of the Christian
religion. He said, look this
00:17:03.72\00:17:07.49
isn't a sort of a prejudicial
bill. Any Christian religion can
00:17:07.52\00:17:10.70
get paid for. That was progress.
I mean in Great Britain you
00:17:10.74\00:17:13.24
never would have had that at
that time. You know, it was the
00:17:13.28\00:17:15.56
Church of England or it was
nothing. That's why the pilgrims
00:17:15.59\00:17:20.16
had to come over and so forth.
But Madison said wait a minute.
00:17:20.20\00:17:24.51
First of all we don't want a
government that can establish
00:17:24.55\00:17:29.15
Christianity as a whole and
say that's an essentially Kosher
00:17:29.19\00:17:33.76
religion, to mix my metaphors
a little bit. It can also
00:17:33.79\00:17:37.43
establish one sect of
Christianity or one denomination
00:17:37.47\00:17:41.04
of religion. In addition, both
Benjamin Franklin and Thomas
00:17:41.08\00:17:45.30
Jefferson spoke up. One of
the comments Benjamin Franklin
00:17:45.33\00:17:49.48
was if a religion is good God
will take care of it and if it's
00:17:51.97\00:17:57.14
not good then I don't think that
if it needs money then maybe
00:17:57.17\00:18:02.31
that's a sign that it isn't
such a good religion. That's
00:18:02.34\00:18:03.71
powerful. Jefferson on the other
hand put it a different way.
00:18:03.75\00:18:09.83
He said that to tax people
to take your money to pay for
00:18:09.87\00:18:14.10
the activities of a faith that
you don't agree with is an act
00:18:14.14\00:18:18.20
of tyranny. Maybe you wouldn't
go as far or use such strong
00:18:18.23\00:18:22.57
language but that forms the
basis of people who said wait
00:18:22.61\00:18:26.97
a second. Do we really want
the government funding religion?
00:18:27.01\00:18:31.09
Okay, let me do this. We're
going to put your attorney hat
00:18:31.12\00:18:36.23
on. Did I ever take it off?
If you were making an argument
00:18:36.26\00:18:40.84
about the issue of faith-based
initiatives for those of who
00:18:40.88\00:18:45.05
who don't really understand
what the problems with them are
00:18:45.08\00:18:49.22
or what the problems
are not, what would you say?
00:18:49.25\00:18:53.26
My argument would be two fold.
The first argument I'd take
00:18:53.30\00:18:56.85
from the position of people who
are religious, people who have
00:18:56.88\00:18:59.80
religious institutions. I'd
say this: The minute you start
00:18:59.84\00:19:02.40
taking government money,
you start accepting government
00:19:02.43\00:19:04.92
regulation. The question is are
you willing to put the autonomy
00:19:04.96\00:19:08.84
of your religious institution
at risk to get a little bit of
00:19:08.87\00:19:12.83
money from the government?
Make no mistake about it, with
00:19:12.87\00:19:16.44
government money comes
government rules. I used to work
00:19:16.47\00:19:19.97
in a law firm where we had a
whole department that just dealt
00:19:20.01\00:19:22.96
with government contracts,
contracts between the government
00:19:22.99\00:19:26.16
and different entities. It's
very complicated. You don't want
00:19:26.19\00:19:29.32
to run afoul of the government.
You better abide by their rules
00:19:29.35\00:19:33.38
and those rules change and they
can be very invasive. So from
00:19:33.41\00:19:37.41
a church perspective be
very, very careful because with
00:19:37.44\00:19:41.38
government money
comes government control.
00:19:41.41\00:19:44.33
And that's so important because
me just being a homemaker, a
00:19:44.37\00:19:48.55
housewife, that sounds great
for the church. You know the
00:19:48.59\00:19:52.70
government helping and you
know you even have churches that
00:19:52.74\00:19:56.82
don't see that there is
a problem. So this is very
00:19:56.85\00:19:59.44
important. I can
give you examples of how
00:19:59.47\00:20:01.29
this is played out as a problem,
but maybe I should go through
00:20:01.33\00:20:04.52
to my second point. My second
point is this: As soon as the
00:20:04.55\00:20:08.07
government starts funding
religious activities they start
00:20:08.10\00:20:11.57
choosing, by necessity. There's
a limited amount of funds,
00:20:11.61\00:20:14.67
there's almost an unlimited
amount of religious activity
00:20:14.71\00:20:18.32
and variety. They start choosing
who gets the money. Do you
00:20:18.35\00:20:22.39
really want the government
deciding, with your tax money,
00:20:22.43\00:20:26.40
to put that money into
a religious organization
00:20:26.44\00:20:27.89
that you may have very profound
00:20:27.93\00:20:30.69
theological differences with?
Look in the United States, we
00:20:30.72\00:20:33.95
have a great privilege and
that is when we give money to a
00:20:33.98\00:20:38.18
charity, a church, we get a tax
deduction, churches and other
00:20:38.22\00:20:42.39
institutions run tax free. Not
every country has that. We are
00:20:43.15\00:20:50.46
a very wealthy nation and are
we really that desperately in
00:20:50.49\00:20:55.30
need as a religious community
to go out cap in hand to the
00:20:55.34\00:21:00.24
government saying please help
us? Surely as a community of
00:21:00.28\00:21:04.29
believers, God's given us
resources. We don't need the
00:21:04.32\00:21:08.65
strings attached to government
money and we don't want the
00:21:08.68\00:21:12.61
government choosing which faith
we're supporting and which one
00:21:12.65\00:21:16.26
we're not. So my argument would
be on both of those grounds,
00:21:16.30\00:21:19.88
very practical grounds,
theoretical grounds. Let's look
00:21:19.91\00:21:23.07
back and see what the
first amendment really meant
00:21:23.11\00:21:26.20
and I think it's very hard
to argue when you have Madison's
00:21:26.24\00:21:31.33
writing on this and Madison was
key to getting that passed and
00:21:31.36\00:21:36.34
Jefferson because of his initial
work on this issue in Virginia,
00:21:36.38\00:21:41.33
it's very hard to argue
that they had any intention of
00:21:41.36\00:21:44.30
getting the government
involved in funding religion.
00:21:44.33\00:21:47.20
It's like the media uses this,
and you know I'm a part of the
00:21:47.23\00:21:53.93
media. Your a part of the
problem. Are we going to make
00:21:53.96\00:21:59.46
a solution. We'll take this
jargon and talk it in such a
00:21:59.49\00:22:04.92
circle that it still leaves us
confused so when the government
00:22:04.96\00:22:08.96
announces that this is happening
and that's happening, you know
00:22:08.99\00:22:12.96
surface-wise your everyday
household person is like, Oh
00:22:12.99\00:22:15.97
that's a good
thing, that's a good thing.
00:22:16.00\00:22:17.72
I think the one thing that I
would say about the faith-based
00:22:17.76\00:22:21.65
initiative and school vouchers
and the whole issue, because
00:22:21.68\00:22:24.90
these issues are all in the
same sort of general category
00:22:24.94\00:22:28.09
as this and that is, it is fair
to say that there are folks in
00:22:28.13\00:22:32.57
the United States in desperate
need, of course, all around the
00:22:32.61\00:22:37.60
world and it's also fair to say
that religious groups' charities
00:22:37.63\00:22:41.29
and schools and so forth are
an important part of delivering
00:22:41.33\00:22:46.02
services to those people. To
recognize that and to praise it
00:22:46.05\00:22:50.71
I think is absolutely
appropriate. I would argue
00:22:50.74\00:22:53.66
though that getting them
embroiled with government
00:22:53.70\00:22:56.55
funding is not going to make
them more effective but in the
00:22:56.59\00:23:00.49
long run will compromise the
unique contributions that they
00:23:00.53\00:23:04.40
make. Okay. With
you being a whole lot
00:23:04.43\00:23:07.69
of things including an attorney
and a speaker, how would you
00:23:07.73\00:23:11.81
just really verbally break down
the problem of separation of
00:23:11.84\00:23:15.89
church state biblically.
Sure, I think this is very
00:23:15.92\00:23:20.61
important because a lot of
people look at the Bible and say
00:23:20.65\00:23:26.20
look at the Old Testament. I
mean, there God was the ruler of
00:23:26.24\00:23:30.59
the state and there was no
separation of church and state.
00:23:30.63\00:23:34.91
I mean, people were put to death
for religious crimes, blasphemy
00:23:34.95\00:23:38.10
for example, idolatry and
Sabbath breaking, the whole
00:23:38.14\00:23:44.00
thing. Some people thought maybe
that's what God expects from us
00:23:44.03\00:23:49.04
now. I would argue that that's
not the case. The children of
00:23:49.07\00:23:54.04
Israel were a very special case
in a number of ways. The most
00:23:54.11\00:23:57.48
important way was that as a
whole group in unanimity with
00:23:59.97\00:24:04.92
God they entered into an
agreement with God that he would
00:24:04.96\00:24:09.06
be their leader, they would
follow his rules. In a sense,
00:24:09.10\00:24:13.54
as a lawyer I think of that
almost as a contract, a contract
00:24:13.58\00:24:17.99
of how things are going to go.
00:24:18.02\00:24:18.99
And then do we really want the
Lord to deal with us as he did
00:24:19.00\00:24:22.26
in the old days. Because if you
said or did something wrong you
00:24:22.29\00:24:25.71
could be stricken dead
immediately. I mean the earth
00:24:25.74\00:24:28.42
will open up and I mean...
00:24:28.45\00:24:29.73
Sure, though if you take the
Bible as a whole those instances
00:24:29.77\00:24:33.91
are relatively few but I think
they are illustrative of when
00:24:33.94\00:24:38.21
you enter into an agreement with
God, God will bless you, God
00:24:38.24\00:24:42.48
blessed Israel in ways
that were fabulous, fantastic,
00:24:42.51\00:24:45.36
unbelievable, but at the same
time there was an obligation
00:24:45.39\00:24:50.07
that came with that. In
the New Testament, Christ never
00:24:50.10\00:24:54.04
established a state. He could
have, he had the authority.
00:24:54.07\00:24:57.22
People were looking for him to
be a civil leader, but he made
00:24:57.26\00:25:00.57
it very clear, My kingdom is not
of this world. I mean you can't
00:25:00.60\00:25:03.97
make it a whole lot clearer than
that. Peter wanted to go out
00:25:04.00\00:25:07.08
there with the sword, you know,
and really go out there and
00:25:07.12\00:25:11.05
exert civil power. Christ
rejected that idea. Christ was
00:25:11.09\00:25:16.24
never out there asking the
Romans for money. He sacked the
00:25:16.28\00:25:21.95
money changers in the temple.
He got rid of them. If you take
00:25:21.98\00:25:27.62
Christ's example which is I
think the example for all of us
00:25:27.66\00:25:32.51
who are Christians, you have to
say there's just no evidence at
00:25:32.55\00:25:37.37
all that He tried to use the
state to advance his cause in
00:25:37.40\00:25:41.01
any way, shape or form. Romans
tells us that the state is there
00:25:41.05\00:25:46.68
to advance good, Paul tells us
that, and to punish evildoers.
00:25:46.72\00:25:51.45
That's appropriate. But to
actually establish a religion
00:25:51.48\00:25:56.14
to fund a religion, to become a
vehicle for religion, that's an
00:25:56.18\00:26:01.03
admission by the church that
we don't have the vitality, we
00:26:01.06\00:26:05.75
don't have the spiritual power,
we don't have the faith to make
00:26:05.79\00:26:11.03
this happen. To me, you now,
it's not the worst thing in the
00:26:11.06\00:26:16.64
world that people are going to
have disagreements on funding of
00:26:16.68\00:26:20.85
institutions and so forth. I'm
not saying that it's a sin to
00:26:20.88\00:26:25.01
take government money, I
wouldn't go that far, but I
00:26:25.05\00:26:27.09
would say to the community,
to Christians, what does it say
00:26:27.12\00:26:30.92
when we're going cap in hand
to the government when our king
00:26:30.96\00:26:35.80
owns the cattle on a 1000 hills
He's there for us and I think
00:26:35.84\00:26:40.65
that when we're going to
the state we're missing great
00:26:40.68\00:26:45.32
blessing of going
to our heavenly Father.
00:26:45.36\00:26:46.33
Attorney Standish, shall
we say Pastor now? Thank you
00:26:46.34\00:26:52.36
so much. This is like
really a heartfelt again from me
00:26:52.40\00:26:58.49
because you know when you just
hear and read the e-mails and
00:26:58.53\00:27:02.37
so forth of people from around
the world that are dealing right
00:27:02.40\00:27:06.42
now with precautions because of
their beliefs and this unity of
00:27:06.46\00:27:10.59
separation of church and state
to really define a clear line
00:27:10.62\00:27:14.72
not to the left, not to
the right, to the middle, but
00:27:14.75\00:27:18.38
exactly where is that
line is paramount to our soul
00:27:18.41\00:27:21.97
salvation basically. So thank
you so much for joining us.
00:27:22.01\00:27:25.88
Thanks for having me. Can I just
mention to viewers that if they
00:27:25.92\00:27:28.91
would lime to find out
more they can visit our website
00:27:28.94\00:27:31.13
religiousliberty.info
00:27:31.16\00:27:35.65
Thank you so much for joining
us. If you have issues, well
00:27:35.69\00:27:38.73
the Lord has the answers
and you know what? We will seek
00:27:38.77\00:27:41.58
them out together. Okay?
So feel free to e-mail me at
00:27:41.61\00:27:44.39
melissa.summers@3abn.org
00:27:44.43\00:27:48.27
Until next time, God bless
you. Whatever you dealing with,
00:27:48.31\00:27:51.18
you're not dealing with it
alone. You have your family
00:27:51.21\00:27:54.05
here. Okay. God Bless. Bye.
00:27:54.08\00:27:57.24