Welcome to Issues and
Answer, if you enjoy history,
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if you enjoy religious history,
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if you enjoy knowing
what happened in 1800s
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and how it is that
Seventh-day Adventists
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are looking forward to
the second coming of Jesus
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and what prophets may
have been around at that time.
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You may enjoy this program.
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We're gonna talk about
the life of William Foy
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and this book
"The Unknown Prophet"
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by Dr. Delbert Baker.
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Welcome to the
program, Dr Baker.
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Thank you.
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Let me tell you a little bit
about Dr Baker for those of you
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who are new to meeting him,
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he is a native of
Oakland, California,
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the 10th President
of Oakwood College.
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He is a pastor and editor
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and
administrators and a professor.
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He has written six books,
one is "Telling The Story,"
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"Make Us One Secret
Keys," "Profiles of Service,"
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"From Exile to Prime Minister"
and "The Unknown Prophet"
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and that is what we're
going to talk about today.
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So where do we begin with
this very interesting topic?
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Well, it's a wonderful story
to anyone who likes history
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and Adventist history in general
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more
specifically advent history,
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because really
William Foy, this black man
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who received
visions prior to Ellen White
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was in fact a member
of the advent movement,
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not the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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so there's a
difference between the two.
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But this gentleman
who was converted in 1835
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was born to a
family that was raised
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during very difficult
time for black people.
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But he came to know Jesus Christ
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through a
congregation's minister
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by the name of Silas Curtis.
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And following 1835, he felt that
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God was impressing
him to do something,
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so he went to Boston
Mass to go to the seminary,
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to go into the ministry.
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And it was there in Boston
that in 1842 William Ellis Foy
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received visions that
preceded that of Ellen White.
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And his visions had to
do with the advent movement
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talking about heaven to
come and the glories and trials
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and various
things that happened.
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A fascinating
story and it really shows
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that God was dealing more than
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just with one
person at one time,
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but he had a grand plan
and William for his life
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brings that out in
a very powerful way.
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Now tell me about
the advent movement,
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what exactly was that?
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The advent
movement, a good question
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because many people
confuse the advent movement
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with the Adventist movement
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or the Seventh-day
Adventist movement.
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Now, the advent
movement really preceded
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the Seventh-day
Adventist movement
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and that was really
started, the main spokesperson
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for that movement was William...
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Well, not William Foy
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but I should say William Miller.
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He was the, he
was the major figure
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and the character that
so many people know about.
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He was the one
that had the conviction
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that Jesus was coming soon.
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And he was preaching in
the 1830s and in the 1840s.
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He had this deep conviction
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that Christ was
coming to earth soon.
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And as a result
of his conviction
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he shared this and
this small movement
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of a few people
blossomed into something great
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and really magnificent
that touched the entire country
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and the world for that matter.
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That's the advent movement.
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Well, many people know about
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the prominent
figures like Lynch and Fitch
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and other people who are
part of the advent movement,
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but few people know that
there was a pretty significant
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contingent of black people
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who were part of the
advent movement as well.
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And William Foy was
one of the individuals
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when he was in Boston
that heard about the movement
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because, you know,
Boston was like a center
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to the advent
movement during that period.
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They had great rallies.
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William Foy lived on Beacon Hill
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or what they
refer to as Nigger Hill.
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And it was just a few
blocks from where they have
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these large gatherings
of the advent believers.
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Well, being a
seminary student in the area
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and wanted to
know about ministry,
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he was infected by
this advent message--
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Now, what was happening--
That Christ is coming soon.
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Around that time as far as
with transitioning from slavery,
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you know, was he in a part,
was he a part of that at all?
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Right, well, actually he
was a freedmen so he was...
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He had never been,
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his generations
had never been slave.
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His parents,
but not William Foy.
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Okay.
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So he had the
advantage of being free
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and so that why, that
way he had the liberty
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in the movement to
go from place to place
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and to do various
things unlike many people
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who were in slavery
during that period of course.
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And that's why he
was able to go to Boston,
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go to school and so forth
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and he was in
the black community.
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We'll see was there that he came
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to learn about
the advent movement.
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He was impressed
with the message,
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heard about the second
coming, believed in it,
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and he began to be a part
of the advent movement, okay.
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And I was following
his conversion that in 1842
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that he was on South Arch Street
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at a Baptist church
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and he was with a
gathering of people
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that he
received his first vision
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that was January 18, 1842.
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And there he saw
the glories of heaven
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and the rewards that
were coming to God's people
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and he was powerfully
moved by the wonderful things
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that were to take place,
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but his vision also
talked about the trials
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that they would go through.
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And that was something
that kind of burdened his heart
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and so God then
gave him this conviction
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but in this vision
he did not say to him,
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you have to relate to
others which have you seen.
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Okay. Okay.
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So William Foy
received the message,
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he was impressed
by it and understood
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that it had a
great message for people
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but because he was black
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and because of
the difficult times
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that he was living in,
he was hesitant to share it.
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Well, certainly
the name that you use
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for where he
resided maybe tells it all.
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The times, so it
probably would not have been
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very well received if
he had shared his vision
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with other people
outside of his community.
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Absolutely and but
that's really the way
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it is always been, you
know with biblical prophets
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and people who God
impresses to do something
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that there is this
challenge to share it
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but then there's a reluctance,
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if I shared how will
the people receive it,
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what might happen to
me, these types of things.
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And so William Foy
was not exempt from that,
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he struggled with
it in, and yet he knew
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that he had to share
with others what he'd seen.
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And so he carried this burden,
he just had this on his heart,
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you know, guide has
shown me these things,
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I have to tell
people, but he didn't.
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He felt impressed to tell it
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but he didn't have the
specific command to tell it.
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And so it was a few
weeks later in February
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that William Foy
received this second vision
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and in this vision
he most specifically saw
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about the difficult times that
were ahead of the Advent people
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and what they had to go through
before Christ would come.
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This time the God told him
you got to share with others
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what you've seen.
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He had the message this time.
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There was no
escape, there was no excuse,
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he couldn't say, well, I
have this wonderful message,
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I should share it
but, you know, I won't.
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Specifically the guide
said you must share with others
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what you've seen and I
will be with you always
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and that was the conviction.
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So he came out of that
vision, people around him.
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When you say the
guide what do you mean?
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Well, it was this guide
that was with him in heaven
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when he was taken to heaven
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and he saw the glories
of the world to come and...
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Okay. What was it, an angel?
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It was an angel. Okay.
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That's clearly an
angel, mighty powerful angel
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that he said was his guide there
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and was taken
from place to place.
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And it's amazing
thing, Karen, that
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what William Foy
saw was very similar
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to some of the early
visions of Ellen White,
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and in my book
The Unknown Prophet,
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I compared the two visions
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or similar visions
of the two individuals
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and it's remarkable how God gave
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similar scenes to Ellen White
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that He also
gave to William Foy.
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But at any rate
following the second vision
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that's when he had
the real commission,
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the real burden.
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And people wanted to hear it.
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And he said that he
knew he had to share it
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but he was so scared.
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He said, how will
people accept this mission
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or this vision
from me a black man.
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Now Loughborough,
John Loughborough,
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one of the early historians
in the Adventist church
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brings out how he
heard William Foy preach.
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He said he was a
powerful preacher.
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He shared the
word with conviction
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and he described him as
the light skin black man.
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Now many
individuals assume from that
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the fact that
he's a light skinned,
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he was a light skinned black man
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that he was a mulatto
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but that's really not
substantiated by history.
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There are many individuals
who are light skinned
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but that doesn't mean
that they're mulatto meaning
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that they had a
white and black parent.
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And when I
researched and studied this out,
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there is no
evidence to suggest that,
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in fact it's quite the opposite
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that he in fact
was not a mulatto.
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But at any rate
he knew that his,
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the reception of
this might be mixed,
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but he had to tell it.
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And so what happened is
there's a wonderful story,
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you can read it in the book,
there's a great chapter on that
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about how he struggled
with it and finally some people
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from the local churches
in Boston went to William Foy
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and they said, you
know, we want to hear
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what you have to say, you
know, we knew you envisioned,
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we understood that, we see that.
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Now, this is from
the white churches there?
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White and black. Okay.
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In fact, there's
a mixed response,
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white and blacks wanted
to hear what he had to say.
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He tried to put it
off, but he couldn't.
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And so they
literally escorted him
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one Sunday morning
from his house Beacon Hill
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to a local congregation there.
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He walked in there
and as he describes it
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that he had
probably or anywhere from
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800 to 1,000 people assembled
there to hear his message.
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As he walked in and then
this great fear came to him
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and he saw all
these people there
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and he is
overwhelmed with the weight
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of the commission
and what he had to do.
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He said he is, he
almost froze up there.
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And he got up there in the front
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and they were
waiting for him to speak.
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And he said to the
person leading on the program,
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he says listen, you've got
to pray or do something like
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how to get my thoughts together.
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He talks about this by the way
00:10:07.30\00:10:08.64
in his little
pamphlet that he wrote called
00:10:08.67\00:10:10.21
The Christian
Experience, William Ellis Foy.
00:10:10.24\00:10:12.87
And he said that when
his, when the guy was praying.
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He said, all of a sudden
this great peace came over him.
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The sense of the God's presence
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and he remembered
the words of his guide
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that said I will
be with you always.
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And he began to
speak and as he spoke
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he had such great
freedom and such great fluency
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that he sure did he said
and whereas once it seemed like
00:10:31.23\00:10:33.70
each person there was
like a mountain in themselves,
00:10:33.73\00:10:36.00
he said when he begin to
speak, all of a sudden he said
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he felt the power of
God washing through him.
00:10:38.80\00:10:42.27
And he talked about as
a wonderful experience,
00:10:42.30\00:10:44.37
a wonderful experience
and he shared his message
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and he was so
relieved when he did so.
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Well, you know this
is, this is interesting.
00:10:51.38\00:10:53.88
I had always heard that
there was another black man
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who had received the vision
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similar to Ellen
White at the time.
00:10:58.72\00:11:00.72
But I didn't know he
ever told it to anybody,
00:11:00.76\00:11:02.49
I had thought he didn't.
00:11:02.52\00:11:03.86
Was there anyone else that had
00:11:03.89\00:11:05.23
any type of vision
like that at that time?
00:11:05.26\00:11:07.43
Karen, that, that
your point is the point,
00:11:07.46\00:11:10.70
that I have underlined
and emphasized in the book
00:11:10.73\00:11:14.24
The Unknown Prophet.
00:11:14.27\00:11:16.00
People confuse William Foy
with a man who received visions
00:11:16.04\00:11:19.87
after him called Hazen
Foss was in fact white.
00:11:19.91\00:11:23.24
So there are three individuals,
there's William Foy,
00:11:23.28\00:11:25.81
Hazen Foss, then Ellen White.
00:11:25.85\00:11:28.42
And so you know
Foss, Foy the name
00:11:28.45\00:11:30.09
could kind of confuse
people, confuse the names.
00:11:30.12\00:11:32.69
And so they often mix the two
but in fact what happened is.
00:11:32.72\00:11:36.52
And that's one
reason why people confuse
00:11:36.56\00:11:37.99
but there's another reason.
00:11:38.03\00:11:39.69
William Foy in fact did
pause in giving his visions.
00:11:39.73\00:11:43.00
History bears out that
after he had this conviction,
00:11:43.03\00:11:45.80
after he shared
his message like he did
00:11:45.83\00:11:48.74
with that
congregation at Boston,
00:11:48.77\00:11:50.14
he did it several times.
00:11:50.17\00:11:51.51
In fact Ellen White herself
00:11:51.54\00:11:53.38
with her father
heard William Foy preach.
00:11:53.41\00:11:57.11
And she said, it was
a remarkable testimony
00:11:57.15\00:11:58.81
that he voiced, it
really impressed with
00:11:58.85\00:12:00.35
what he shared and what he said.
00:12:00.38\00:12:02.82
Well, it was following that,
that William Foy was concerned
00:12:02.85\00:12:06.05
about his livelihood and
his family, he was married.
00:12:06.09\00:12:09.12
And he wondered how
could he support himself
00:12:09.16\00:12:12.19
simply giving these
messages and so from about June
00:12:12.23\00:12:15.66
until August of
1842, he did pause
00:12:15.70\00:12:18.67
and stop giving those
visions during that period
00:12:18.70\00:12:21.47
and so he talks about
this in his book as well.
00:12:21.50\00:12:24.74
Well, during that
period when he was stopping,
00:12:24.77\00:12:26.74
he was working with his hands
00:12:26.78\00:12:28.11
earning a living for his family,
00:12:28.14\00:12:29.54
but he said he could
never shake the conviction
00:12:29.58\00:12:31.21
that he had to
tell what he had seen.
00:12:31.25\00:12:33.72
And he was never
released of that burden.
00:12:33.75\00:12:36.22
And so in August, he
once again had the conviction
00:12:36.25\00:12:40.02
he's got to share it
00:12:40.06\00:12:41.39
and he received
four visions all total,
00:12:41.42\00:12:43.59
four visions all total.
00:12:43.63\00:12:45.19
I referred it to law
that refers to the three,
00:12:45.23\00:12:47.83
the third vision
with the three platforms
00:12:47.86\00:12:49.70
and I think
there's a clear imagery
00:12:49.73\00:12:51.17
or symbolism to the
Three Angels' Messages.
00:12:51.20\00:12:53.70
Okay, now for those of
us who are not up to speed
00:12:53.74\00:12:55.50
on that platforms,
00:12:55.54\00:12:56.87
can you tell us a
little bit about that?
00:12:56.91\00:12:58.24
Well, you know, the
Three Angels' Broadcast
00:12:58.27\00:13:01.14
as ties in the
word three as well
00:13:01.18\00:13:02.88
but Adventist know
three, the number 3 well.
00:13:02.91\00:13:07.02
There's 3 this and 3
that and 7 and 12 and 14
00:13:07.05\00:13:09.98
various things like that.
00:13:10.02\00:13:11.35
But clearly the
Three Angels' Messages
00:13:11.39\00:13:15.32
that the Advent movement
00:13:15.36\00:13:16.69
and the really
the Adventist church
00:13:16.73\00:13:18.46
I should say really stressed
00:13:18.49\00:13:20.30
was integral to
the whole movement.
00:13:20.33\00:13:23.03
The messages of Revelation 14
and about what God was seeking
00:13:23.06\00:13:26.84
to give the people at that time,
00:13:26.87\00:13:28.20
it's fully explained
in Revelation Chapter 14.
00:13:28.24\00:13:30.51
It would be wonderful for
readers who could read it.
00:13:30.54\00:13:32.51
If our listeners
could read that passage
00:13:32.54\00:13:34.54
and just become
acquainted with the messages.
00:13:34.58\00:13:37.91
But William Foy
refers to these three
00:13:37.95\00:13:40.15
by the three
platforms in his third vision.
00:13:40.18\00:13:43.42
Letting them know, I
believe without question
00:13:43.45\00:13:46.52
that there had
to be a full message
00:13:46.55\00:13:48.79
that was shared
before Jesus would come,
00:13:48.82\00:13:52.23
and remembered
in that that time,
00:13:52.26\00:13:53.60
all of the messages were not
fully expounded in that period.
00:13:53.63\00:13:57.57
It's my conviction
and my strong belief
00:13:57.60\00:13:59.27
that if individuals had
fully understood his message
00:13:59.30\00:14:03.87
that some would have been spared
00:14:03.91\00:14:05.27
the great disappointment.
00:14:05.31\00:14:06.64
I mean that's a
powerful point to think about.
00:14:06.68\00:14:08.71
That God really didn't want
00:14:08.74\00:14:10.08
people to be
disappointed the way
00:14:10.11\00:14:11.45
they were just like He
didn't want the disciples
00:14:11.48\00:14:12.85
would be disappointed
when he was crucified.
00:14:12.88\00:14:14.98
He wanted to warn us to
give us a kind of insight
00:14:15.02\00:14:17.92
before it happened.
00:14:17.95\00:14:19.72
Well, in anyway
that's three platforms,
00:14:19.75\00:14:21.29
Ellen White refers
to the fourth vision.
00:14:21.32\00:14:23.06
She said she had
copies of all four
00:14:23.09\00:14:24.69
but she couldn't find them.
00:14:24.73\00:14:26.26
This is recorded
by Dores Robinson,
00:14:26.29\00:14:27.96
I think it's about
19, shortly after 1900,
00:14:28.00\00:14:30.07
he talks about his interview
00:14:30.10\00:14:33.07
with Ellen White
about William Foy.
00:14:33.10\00:14:35.90
Well, so he had
the four visions.
00:14:35.94\00:14:38.71
He paused in 1842 the summer
and because of his conviction
00:14:38.74\00:14:43.04
because he was not
relieved of this conviction,
00:14:43.08\00:14:45.38
he once again started to preach
and to share following August
00:14:45.41\00:14:49.88
and he continued to do so.
00:14:49.92\00:14:52.15
But I don't know if
you want to go this yet
00:14:52.19\00:14:53.96
but it was a wonderful
thing what happen is see,
00:14:53.99\00:14:56.52
he only received four visions.
00:14:56.56\00:14:57.99
He didn't receive the
scores and hundreds of visions
00:14:58.03\00:15:01.00
like Ellen White.
00:15:01.03\00:15:02.36
I clearly see him as
being a pre-disappointed prophet
00:15:02.40\00:15:05.67
not post-disappointed prophet.
00:15:05.70\00:15:07.57
Lot of folks are well,
00:15:07.60\00:15:08.94
if William Foy
had been faithful,
00:15:08.97\00:15:10.31
he could have been a
prophet like Ellen White.
00:15:10.34\00:15:11.67
No, no, I don't see that
as being the case at all.
00:15:11.71\00:15:13.71
God had major prophets
00:15:13.74\00:15:15.08
and He had minor
prophets in the Bible.
00:15:15.11\00:15:17.11
William Foy was a minor prophet
00:15:17.15\00:15:18.71
who received his
visions before 1844,
00:15:18.75\00:15:22.12
Ellen White is what I
consider a major prophetess
00:15:22.15\00:15:25.05
or prophet who
received visions after 1844.
00:15:25.09\00:15:29.82
And surely the fact that
she received these visions
00:15:29.86\00:15:32.19
as a young woman
17, 18 years of age
00:15:32.23\00:15:35.46
and then reflecting
back on what she had heard,
00:15:35.50\00:15:37.40
it confirmed to her,
that it was the Lord speaking.
00:15:37.43\00:15:40.00
Now, you're saying that
she actually did hear Him
00:15:40.04\00:15:42.37
prior to her when
she was a young girl...
00:15:42.40\00:15:44.81
Absolutely, you know,
she received her vision,
00:15:44.84\00:15:46.84
first vision in
December of 1844 as we know
00:15:46.88\00:15:50.28
and this was a
time when William Foy
00:15:50.31\00:15:52.31
basically had
received all his visions,
00:15:52.35\00:15:54.62
I don't have any record.
00:15:54.65\00:15:55.98
So that was good,
he had four vision
00:15:56.02\00:15:58.02
that really were
a message to those
00:15:58.05\00:16:00.12
that were involved in the Ad,
00:16:00.16\00:16:01.49
the general Advent
movement which was world,
00:16:01.52\00:16:03.59
well, to the then
known world I should say
00:16:03.63\00:16:06.13
between the United
States and Europe at that time,
00:16:06.16\00:16:08.86
just heralding the
second coming of Jesus.
00:16:08.90\00:16:11.87
But then there
was this time prophecy
00:16:11.90\00:16:14.17
that the end of the 2,300 days
00:16:14.20\00:16:16.37
that a lot of people
were kind of involved with
00:16:16.40\00:16:18.37
and focused on,
but they're not knowing
00:16:18.41\00:16:20.61
when Jesus would come
00:16:20.64\00:16:21.98
that was the
great disappointment.
00:16:22.01\00:16:24.45
You know, well stated
00:16:24.48\00:16:25.81
and I think this
is absolutely, right
00:16:25.85\00:16:27.25
that it was never
his purpose sort of plan
00:16:27.28\00:16:28.92
to received visions after that.
00:16:28.95\00:16:31.25
Following 1845 and up
to that time Ellen White
00:16:31.29\00:16:34.89
of course heard him in,
00:16:34.92\00:16:37.39
in Maine I should say
Portland in particular.
00:16:37.43\00:16:41.30
She and her
father had visited him.
00:16:41.33\00:16:43.73
In fact, she saw his wife
there and she was talking about
00:16:43.77\00:16:47.44
what a genuine
experience he had.
00:16:47.47\00:16:49.57
Well, it was following
that the William Foy moved
00:16:49.60\00:16:51.77
out of the Boston area.
00:16:51.81\00:16:53.81
And people don't know this
and this really substantiates
00:16:53.84\00:16:56.11
out of the fact that he
didn't stop sharing his message
00:16:56.14\00:16:58.95
for what his book
bears it out in 1845.
00:16:58.98\00:17:01.72
He was preaching and teaching
and he wrote out his visions
00:17:01.75\00:17:04.89
at least two of them,
00:17:04.92\00:17:06.69
so individuals
could know about them
00:17:06.72\00:17:08.59
but he left that area
00:17:08.62\00:17:09.96
and went to East
Sullivan area of Maine
00:17:09.99\00:17:14.23
and he was a pastor there,
pastor of church until 1893.
00:17:14.26\00:17:19.13
And folks don't
know this really 1870s
00:17:19.17\00:17:20.84
and then he died in 1893.
00:17:20.87\00:17:22.94
But he was
faithful to the very end.
00:17:22.97\00:17:24.54
And I had the
privilege of just traveling
00:17:24.57\00:17:27.41
through that area in
searching all of his,
00:17:27.44\00:17:29.74
his steps in
following where he was
00:17:29.78\00:17:31.51
and one of the thrills of my
research a few years back was.
00:17:31.55\00:17:35.45
I met a man who knew
someone who knew of William Foy.
00:17:35.48\00:17:38.82
This gentle black preacher
who lived in the Sullivan area
00:17:38.85\00:17:42.92
and preached the gospel he said
00:17:42.96\00:17:44.63
and he was very, very much
involved in local community.
00:17:44.66\00:17:47.60
He helped poor
and homeless families.
00:17:47.63\00:17:49.40
He helped to build shelters
for people in the area there
00:17:49.43\00:17:52.70
and had a wonderful ministry
not public, not big time
00:17:52.73\00:17:56.54
but it was a very
significant ministry.
00:17:56.57\00:17:59.47
Some people say,
"Well, what about William Foy
00:17:59.51\00:18:01.48
and the Sabbath?"
00:18:01.51\00:18:02.84
I mean did he ever
accept the Sabbath.
00:18:02.88\00:18:04.45
I have no evidence that he did
00:18:04.48\00:18:05.95
and there's nothing in
my research that suggests
00:18:05.98\00:18:08.55
that he accepted the Sabbath.
00:18:08.58\00:18:10.29
But of course many
people during that period,
00:18:10.32\00:18:11.75
many of the advent believers
didn't accept the Sabbath
00:18:11.79\00:18:14.26
and really
didn't fully buy into it
00:18:14.29\00:18:16.32
and didn't
understand it and whatever
00:18:16.36\00:18:18.59
but they were blessed of God.
00:18:18.63\00:18:20.63
Ellen White speaks about
seeing Finch and Lynch in heaven
00:18:20.66\00:18:24.13
in their part they played.
00:18:24.17\00:18:25.60
William Miller
himself as we well know
00:18:25.63\00:18:28.50
was one who had
the advent message,
00:18:28.54\00:18:30.27
but didn't fully
understand all the intricacies
00:18:30.31\00:18:32.17
of the Sabbath and
that type of thing.
00:18:32.21\00:18:34.61
But in anyway the
point is that he was faithful
00:18:34.64\00:18:37.08
in the sharing
of his commission.
00:18:37.11\00:18:38.95
He moved off the scene.
00:18:38.98\00:18:40.52
Now, I have to share this
point because this shows the,
00:18:40.55\00:18:44.49
the linking between
William Foy and Ellen White.
00:18:44.52\00:18:48.99
When Ellen received her
vision, her first vision
00:18:49.02\00:18:53.40
and feeling that
God was speaking to her.
00:18:53.43\00:18:56.10
She was speaking
one time and Hazen Foss,
00:18:56.13\00:18:59.63
the white gentleman
who received visions
00:18:59.67\00:19:01.40
after William Foy who was black.
00:19:01.44\00:19:07.38
Hazen Foss had this conviction
00:19:07.41\00:19:10.58
that he should share
what he had received.
00:19:10.61\00:19:12.91
This is again before 1844
before that whole experience
00:19:12.95\00:19:16.95
and he said, "Well, I don't know
00:19:16.99\00:19:18.32
if it's to be true,
00:19:18.35\00:19:19.69
I don't know if this
actually going to happen.
00:19:19.72\00:19:21.06
I don't know if God's
going to really come through
00:19:21.09\00:19:23.59
and when the great
disappointment happened,
00:19:23.63\00:19:25.29
I mean Hazen Foss
and no one else wanted
00:19:25.33\00:19:27.43
anything to do
with the movement.
00:19:27.46\00:19:29.33
And it seemed
well, Ellen White says
00:19:29.36\00:19:32.83
that she was speaking one
time and Hazen Foss heard her
00:19:32.87\00:19:36.91
and spoke to her after
00:19:36.94\00:19:38.27
and said be
faithful to your commission
00:19:38.31\00:19:40.64
and you will receive the crown
that I might have received.
00:19:40.68\00:19:44.18
What a shocking statement.
00:19:44.21\00:19:45.55
He was the man
who refused to do it,
00:19:45.58\00:19:46.92
he said, I am
not going to give it,
00:19:46.95\00:19:48.55
I'm not going to
give the message,
00:19:48.58\00:19:49.92
even though he
received a second vision
00:19:49.95\00:19:52.32
which had said that if you
don't share these messages,
00:19:52.35\00:19:54.26
I'm talking about Foss now,
00:19:54.29\00:19:55.66
Hazen Foss that the Sprit of God
00:19:55.69\00:19:57.33
will be withdrawn from you.
00:19:57.36\00:19:58.79
He refused to do it
and when he refused,
00:19:58.83\00:20:01.26
he had this impression come
over him that he was a lost man
00:20:01.30\00:20:04.77
and that in fact the
spirit had been withdrawn.
00:20:04.80\00:20:07.27
At that point he
became very animated
00:20:07.30\00:20:10.57
and said I'll
tell it, I'll tell it,
00:20:10.61\00:20:11.94
he pulls, he
hastily pulls together
00:20:11.97\00:20:13.31
the little group of
people and they come together
00:20:13.34\00:20:15.51
and he begins to try
to share what he's seen.
00:20:15.54\00:20:18.88
And the people who attended said
00:20:18.91\00:20:20.72
it was the most terrible
meeting they ever attended.
00:20:20.75\00:20:23.12
He said he couldn't remember
anything God had shown him
00:20:23.15\00:20:25.92
and he said before
the group, I'm a lost man.
00:20:25.95\00:20:28.92
He was a man who is disobedient,
00:20:28.96\00:20:30.76
he had rejected the
message and refused to give it,
00:20:30.79\00:20:32.96
he said I'm a lost man.
00:20:32.99\00:20:34.66
And so later when he heard
Ellen White give her visions.
00:20:34.70\00:20:37.37
He said to her, be faithful
and you will receive the crown
00:20:37.40\00:20:40.20
that I might have received.
00:20:40.24\00:20:42.00
Now, that's Hazen Foss.
00:20:42.04\00:20:43.91
William Foy also
heard Ellen White
00:20:43.94\00:20:47.38
and she records this
account in her 1912 interview.
00:20:47.41\00:20:51.45
She says that she was speaking
00:20:51.48\00:20:53.42
and there was this man
in the back of the room,
00:20:53.45\00:20:56.89
she says it was William Foy
00:20:56.92\00:20:59.02
and when she was
speaking, she said he jumped up
00:20:59.05\00:21:01.82
and said it is
just what I have seen,
00:21:01.86\00:21:03.19
just what I've
seen, he was excited,
00:21:03.22\00:21:05.23
he was animated,
he was praising God
00:21:05.26\00:21:07.13
for the message
that she had received
00:21:07.16\00:21:09.23
and she said he said
it so that it seemed like
00:21:09.26\00:21:12.13
it almost disrupted
the meeting in a sense.
00:21:12.17\00:21:13.90
She said she felt that he
thought a little embarrassed
00:21:13.94\00:21:15.97
or ill at ease by the way.
00:21:16.00\00:21:17.67
He was kind of carrying on
and sharing what he had seen.
00:21:17.71\00:21:21.41
So she said that
following that meeting,
00:21:21.44\00:21:23.51
she never heard
anything about him again.
00:21:23.55\00:21:25.68
He moved off the
scene and she said
00:21:25.71\00:21:28.02
but it's a remarkable
testimony that he bore.
00:21:28.05\00:21:30.85
It's my
impression from studying the,
00:21:30.89\00:21:33.02
the personality William
Foy that he realized here
00:21:33.05\00:21:36.16
there was this marvelous
transition that took place.
00:21:36.19\00:21:39.23
You see he had
received these visions
00:21:39.26\00:21:40.76
and he had the
raw data so to speak.
00:21:40.80\00:21:42.70
But he didn't have
the interpretation.
00:21:42.73\00:21:45.13
Here comes Ellen
White who has the vision,
00:21:45.17\00:21:46.94
she knows about the platforms
00:21:46.97\00:21:48.60
and all the messages
that would take place.
00:21:48.64\00:21:50.71
But she is not
simply the visions
00:21:50.74\00:21:52.34
but she has the
interpretation along with it,
00:21:52.37\00:21:54.84
the advent message.
00:21:54.88\00:21:57.41
And I think that he
clearly saw and understood
00:21:57.45\00:21:59.91
that God had passes
on to another individual
00:21:59.95\00:22:03.42
and that she was
faithfully proclaiming it.
00:22:03.45\00:22:05.69
He saw as he did
when he jumped up and down
00:22:05.72\00:22:07.82
in that meeting
that he didn't want
00:22:07.86\00:22:10.43
any kind of a conflict or burden
00:22:10.46\00:22:11.96
or problem or competition.
00:22:11.99\00:22:13.80
And so he saw this
and he moves off the scene
00:22:13.83\00:22:15.90
and he goes to the
southern part of Maine
00:22:15.93\00:22:18.93
and he what refer to
the southern part of Maine
00:22:18.97\00:22:21.37
and he gives his
ministry and shares his story,
00:22:21.40\00:22:23.87
never receiving other visions.
00:22:23.91\00:22:25.24
But faithfully
proclaiming what he had seen
00:22:25.27\00:22:27.31
until his death in 1893
00:22:27.34\00:22:30.45
and it's a marvelous
story when you see it,
00:22:30.48\00:22:31.88
that God is using different
people in different ways,
00:22:31.91\00:22:35.75
a different
diverse ethnic backgrounds,
00:22:35.78\00:22:39.02
the gender
issues included there,
00:22:39.05\00:22:41.69
educated and not educated.
00:22:41.72\00:22:43.19
God wants to use anyone
who is willing to be used
00:22:43.22\00:22:46.23
and he's a message
that he wants to give.
00:22:46.26\00:22:48.26
And he would give
it to those individuals
00:22:48.30\00:22:49.63
who are willing to share it.
00:22:49.66\00:22:51.90
Well, that sounds like the
message of today's program.
00:22:51.93\00:22:55.77
There's like two
individuals, two passive,
00:22:55.80\00:22:59.21
two different people
had an opportunity to take,
00:22:59.24\00:23:01.74
one was follow and do
whatever God says for you to do,
00:23:01.78\00:23:05.35
even if it's outrageous
or even if it's unusual
00:23:05.38\00:23:08.58
or it's not been done
before and one person said yes,
00:23:08.62\00:23:12.92
I'll go ahead and take that step
00:23:12.95\00:23:14.72
and the other person,
just for whatever reason
00:23:14.76\00:23:17.79
there's not a lot of history
on this other person, is there?
00:23:17.83\00:23:20.50
This is Hazen
Foss. Right, Hazen Foss.
00:23:20.53\00:23:22.06
Yeah, he was relative to
Ellen White through marriage.
00:23:22.10\00:23:24.30
And he was a man who
knew about the advent message,
00:23:24.33\00:23:27.37
yeah, he was acquainted with it.
00:23:27.40\00:23:28.74
Okay, so he
made a real decision.
00:23:28.77\00:23:31.07
And I was feeling
kind of badly about this
00:23:31.11\00:23:33.41
and not to say I shouldn't
be feeling badly about him
00:23:33.44\00:23:35.91
but he wasn't a
novice on the topic.
00:23:35.94\00:23:39.11
Okay, he just made a decision,
he did not want to do it.
00:23:39.15\00:23:42.35
He didn't want to do it, I mean
00:23:42.38\00:23:43.72
and many people
can relate to that,
00:23:43.75\00:23:45.35
I mean here was a
movement that was struggling
00:23:45.39\00:23:48.49
that was new after
the great disappointment.
00:23:48.52\00:23:51.06
October 22, 1844
people didn't know
00:23:51.09\00:23:53.73
if they want to be a
part of this movement.
00:23:53.76\00:23:55.10
And it was a
challenge, it's a tough,
00:23:55.13\00:23:57.20
it's tough thing
and people wanted to,
00:23:57.23\00:23:58.93
you know, protect their
names, their reputation,
00:23:58.97\00:24:00.60
their livelihood and so
it was a tough decision,
00:24:00.64\00:24:04.11
but Hazen Foss
made a clear choice,
00:24:04.14\00:24:06.74
he said I will not give it,
William Foy, did not do that.
00:24:06.78\00:24:09.48
In fact William Foy
did fulfill his commission.
00:24:09.51\00:24:12.38
I think that's the difference
we want to keep in mind there
00:24:12.41\00:24:14.65
and make very clear.
00:24:14.68\00:24:17.32
When I was studying my research
00:24:17.35\00:24:20.19
for this book
The Unknown Prophet
00:24:20.22\00:24:22.19
that actually
was published in 1986
00:24:22.22\00:24:26.86
by Review and Herald
publishing Association.
00:24:26.90\00:24:30.30
The breakthrough came
for me when I realize that
00:24:30.33\00:24:33.57
where some people said that
00:24:33.60\00:24:34.94
William Foy had
rejected this message
00:24:34.97\00:24:37.71
and he wasn't faithful
when he had his first vision
00:24:37.74\00:24:40.21
and he didn't share the others.
00:24:40.24\00:24:41.84
Ellen White was the
one that really provided
00:24:41.88\00:24:44.08
the breakthrough
for me when she said
00:24:44.11\00:24:45.68
that she heard
him following 1842.
00:24:45.71\00:24:49.62
Give his message
and she talked about
00:24:49.65\00:24:50.99
how remarkable it was,
00:24:51.02\00:24:52.35
what if she heard
him after this time
00:24:52.39\00:24:53.76
when people said he had rejected
00:24:53.79\00:24:55.12
and they said he
died, how could that be.
00:24:55.16\00:24:58.06
There's no way.
00:24:58.09\00:24:59.43
And that got me thinking about,
00:24:59.46\00:25:00.80
let me search this out
and find out about this man.
00:25:00.83\00:25:03.67
And I was at
Andrews University seminary
00:25:03.70\00:25:06.70
that I began my research there
00:25:06.74\00:25:09.07
that led me deeper and
deeper into the subject.
00:25:09.10\00:25:11.64
And so you see that it's clear
00:25:11.67\00:25:14.34
and then there
is this whole thing
00:25:14.38\00:25:16.14
to some people try to suggest
00:25:16.18\00:25:17.91
that it's a race
issue or the fact that,
00:25:17.95\00:25:20.28
people want to make it
seem like the black man rejected
00:25:20.32\00:25:22.42
but Ellen White was
faithful, I don't really think
00:25:22.45\00:25:25.35
that's the case at all, I
just think that between the--
00:25:25.39\00:25:27.62
With the issue the
names Foss and Foy.
00:25:27.66\00:25:30.06
The proximity of
these two individuals,
00:25:30.09\00:25:31.89
the fact that one did
reject and one didn't.
00:25:31.93\00:25:34.56
The fact that
William Foy did pause
00:25:34.60\00:25:36.80
for a brief
period during his time
00:25:36.83\00:25:38.23
and he didn't give the messages,
00:25:38.27\00:25:40.94
his visions but
he started again.
00:25:40.97\00:25:43.20
I think people are just confused
00:25:43.24\00:25:44.57
and they don't
know that much about it
00:25:44.61\00:25:45.94
as his life is never
really researched and so forth.
00:25:45.97\00:25:48.54
And I'm just happy
that we have an opportunity
00:25:48.58\00:25:51.28
now to hear the truth about
it because it helps to clarify
00:25:51.31\00:25:54.15
a very, very important
point in Adventists history
00:25:54.18\00:25:57.79
as it relates back on
advent history and William Foy.
00:25:57.82\00:26:01.72
And the exciting
thing to me though is
00:26:01.76\00:26:03.53
it doesn't stop there.
00:26:03.56\00:26:05.59
It goes on to say that God
does communicate with his people
00:26:05.63\00:26:09.70
and we have this marvelous
gift of the Spirit of Prophecy,
00:26:09.73\00:26:12.30
the writings of Ellen G. White,
that we now have in book form
00:26:12.33\00:26:16.30
and CD-ROM and in other ways.
00:26:16.34\00:26:19.74
Incredible gift that God
is using to speak to us today
00:26:19.77\00:26:23.24
if we would only
take the time and read it
00:26:23.28\00:26:25.91
and apply it to our lives.
00:26:25.95\00:26:28.25
Well, I really
appreciate your coming
00:26:28.28\00:26:29.62
on the program today, Dr. Baker.
00:26:29.65\00:26:31.92
And I have seen some
studies actually as a program
00:26:31.95\00:26:36.32
that's been aired on 3ABN
on the life of William Miller
00:26:36.36\00:26:38.69
and the advent movement.
00:26:38.73\00:26:40.06
And this is just a
wonderful piece addendum
00:26:40.10\00:26:43.20
to that
particular bit of history.
00:26:43.23\00:26:45.37
Again for those of you
00:26:45.40\00:26:46.74
who are interested
in obtaining the book.
00:26:46.77\00:26:48.17
It is "The Unknown Prophet"
by Dr. Delbert W. Baker.
00:26:48.20\00:26:53.01
And we'll have it
on the 3ABN website
00:26:53.04\00:26:55.94
on how you can get
a hold of this book.
00:26:55.98\00:26:57.88
It will be
reprinted in paperback form
00:26:57.91\00:27:01.05
so that's going to be really
convenient for our listeners
00:27:01.08\00:27:03.82
and as well viewers as well.
00:27:03.85\00:27:05.69
Would you consider this to
be a book to share with people
00:27:05.72\00:27:08.02
who enjoy history?
00:27:08.06\00:27:09.39
Absolutely. Okay.
00:27:09.42\00:27:10.76
I think it's a great book. Okay.
00:27:10.79\00:27:12.46
Well, again if you'd like
to know more about the book
00:27:12.49\00:27:15.16
"The Unknown Prophet"
and about Dr. Delbert Baker,
00:27:15.20\00:27:18.83
you can go to the
3ABN website www.3abn.org
00:27:18.87\00:27:25.01
and you can obtain
information about that
00:27:25.04\00:27:27.31
or you can call the 800 number
that you see 1800-7523-226.
00:27:27.34\00:27:34.08
You know the
point of this program
00:27:34.12\00:27:35.52
is that there always are
two roads that we can take.
00:27:35.55\00:27:38.95
The Lord gives us a choice,
00:27:38.99\00:27:40.32
He doesn't force
His will on any of us.
00:27:40.36\00:27:42.79
Why not choose life.
00:27:42.82\00:27:45.16
Choose God's way
00:27:45.19\00:27:46.53
and you'll be happy,
you'll never regret it.
00:27:46.56\00:27:48.93
And look at the
life of Ellen White,
00:27:48.96\00:27:50.63
if you want to
study more about her,
00:27:50.67\00:27:52.87
how fulfilled and happy
she was for doing God's will.
00:27:52.90\00:27:55.84
Have a blessed day in the
Lord and see you next time.
00:27:55.87\00:27:58.57