Hello I'm Shelley Quinn
and this is Dr. Tom Sheperd
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and we welcome you to
Heaven's Point of View.
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This series is on Love,
Marriage, Sex, and Divorce
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and this happens to be
a program that you teach
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as Professor of New
Testament Interpretation
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at Andrews University
Seminary and we're so thankful
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that you have
brought this Program to us.
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Glad to be here.
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Now, last time we started
on a rather interesting study,
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we were looking
at Romans chapter 1
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and we were beginning to discuss
the idea of homosexuality,
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the practice of homosexuality.
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I'm just going to
turn this over to you
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and let you kind of catch us up.
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Okay, so, we looked at
the outline of Paul's argument
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from Romans 1
through 3 in particular
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and more
specifically in chapter 1
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as we looked at what he
had to say about the Gentiles
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and their being lost,
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we saw that he
described three revelations,
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he mentions the revelation of
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God's
righteousness in the gospel,
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he mentions the revelation
of God's wrath against sin,
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and he mentions the revelation
of God's power in creation,
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he presents those in the reverse
order from which they happened.
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The first was
Creation, the second was Wrath
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and then the last
to come was the gospel,
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so, he puts them
in that reverse order
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because the theme of
his book is the last one
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which is the revelation
of the righteousness of God.
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But he had to indicate and
show that people were in need
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of God's help and so he
lays out this description
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of the revelation of
Creation, revelation of Wrath,
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and revelation of
God's Righteousness.
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We can say that
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at the heart of this
is God's primal revelation
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which is his power and
deity revealed through nature,
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this revelation
calls on us as creatures
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to honor and praise the Creator,
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but the human response to
this beginning with Adam and Eve
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and going on from
there was rejection.
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Instead of
worshipping the Creator,
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humans have worshipped idols.
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And last... please
give us the idea again,
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the definition of wrath,
that this is a reaction of God.
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Yes, it's a reaction
of God to sin and evil,
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it's His holy hatred of sin,
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it's not something that's
not good about His nature,
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but it is not...
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it's also something
that doesn't go on forever
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because it's only a reaction,
once sin is done, it disappears.
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God's
righteousness, His character,
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His essence of
love is permanent,
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it is forever. - Yes.
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His wrath is
"holy anger against sin"
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when the sin is
gone, that wrath is gone.
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Tom: Yeah. Shelley: Okay.
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So, if we go back to talk
about the primal revelation,
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the very first revelation,
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the one that is
the most central one,
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important... or,
what shall we say?
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Foundational,
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it's God's revelation
of who He is in nature.
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His power and His deity.
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Now, in response to that,
there's what we could call,
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"the primal sin," the
original sin against God
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and that is actually idolatry.
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So, people
sometimes get the idea that...
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"Well, we're not
idolaters anymore,"
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we'll have more to say
about that as we go on.
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His wrath is a
reaction against what is evil,
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He hands those over to...
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who sin... to be
controlled by their passions.
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We kind of talked... we
talked about that as well,
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why in the world
would God hand somebody over
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to be controlled by passions?
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It is a
Biblical sense of justice
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that the measure you use
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is the measure that
is used again on you.
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"So, you want to be a
rebel and worship these idols,
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fine, I'll hand
you over to the idols,
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see where that gets you. "
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Yeah and what it gets you is
a continually downward spiral
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and to more and more trouble,
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now, when you get down
there, sometimes what happens is
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you say, "Oh, I need help. "
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Right.
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And then you turn back
to the Creator for help.
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Amen, so... but now where does
homosexuality fit into this?
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Okay, it's described so
we'd better open our Bibles
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to Romans chapter 1
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because it's described in
the second set of exchanges
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that we already
mentioned that Paul refers to
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as the
expression of God's wrath,
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so, we said last time
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that each time when Paul
describes human sinfulness,
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he then says,
"God hands them over,"
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and he says, "God
hands them over. "
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But it's something
that they've done first
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before God hands them over.
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Yeah, and then he responds
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and his response is
"to hand them over,"
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we found that each time
there's this kind of experience
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so, it is under the
second set that we find,
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so what we have to do
is read verses 25 to 27.
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Okay, you'd want
me to start with 24?
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Yeah, I think so,
you'd better start with 24.
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Shelley: Okay. Tom: Exactly.
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"Therefore, God also
gave them up to uncleanness
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in the lusts of their hearts
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to dishonor their
bodies among themselves
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who exchanged the
truth of God for the lie,
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and worshiped and
served the creature
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rather than the Creator,
who is blessed forever, Amen.
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For this reason God gave
them up to vile passions.
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For even their women
exchanged the natural use
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for what is against nature.
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Likewise also the men,
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leaving the
natural use of the woman,
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burned in their
lust for one another,
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men with men
committing what is shameful,
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and receiving in themselves
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the penalty of their
error which was due. "
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Okay, pretty strong words.
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Those are strong words.
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Pretty strong words,
so, go back to verse 25
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to take a careful
look at it, he says,
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"Because they exchanged
the truth about God for a lie,"
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so here's truth and
error, right next to it
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and what have people done?
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They have
exchanged truth for lies,
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so, who does the exchange first?
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Shelley: The people.
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The people do and they
exchange truth for the lie
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and worship and
serve the creature
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rather than the
Creator who is blessed forever.
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And then it
says, "For this reason,
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God hands them over
to dishonorable passions"
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and what happens
then? Exchange...
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exchange takes
place in sexual relations
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where the natural
or we would even say,
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"biological pattern"
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is for a man and a
woman to have sexual relations
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and here what happens is,
there are same-sex relationships
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that are taking place
that Paul describes here.
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Now, there are
several things we can note
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from just
reading these few verses,
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Paul is obviously
very negative about
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lesbian and homosexual practice,
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he uses terms like
"dishonorable passions"
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he talks about...
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he uses the
phrase, "shameless deed,"
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he talks about the
penalty that people get,
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he talks about deception,
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twice he describes heterosexual
practice with the term,
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"natural usage," in
contrast, he speaks of
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the homosexual
practice as unnatural,
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he appears to zero in
on homosexual practice
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because it illustrates
the exchange that took place
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when people left the worship
of God for the worship of idols.
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Quite commonly in the Bible
the measure you use, as we said,
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is the measure
used to judge you,
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Jesus said that in Matthew 7.
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Paul calls the
practice of homosexuality
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as something that is unnatural,
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the Greek term is "para
physin or phoosin" aka physiken
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he speaks of the natural
use of the female in verse 27
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what does he mean
then by these terms?
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we're actually helped by
reading Romans 11 verse 21
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so turn over to
Romans 11 verse 21.
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Okay, you know I
realize this is a
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very sensitive topic
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and I want to say how much
I appreciate your sensitivity
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and particularly
in the last program
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as you set this up
for understanding this,
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Romans 11:21 says,
"For if God did not spare
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the natural branches, he
may not spare you either. "
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Now this is... yeah...
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Speaking here of where
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He has cut of the
branches... being Israel...
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and grafted in...
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Yeah, He has
grafted in the Gentiles
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and He says that,
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"For if God did not
spare the natural branches... "
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He uses the same
kind of terminology, so,
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"natural branches" are branches
that are naturally part of...
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they are of the same nature...
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They are the original
root not grafted in...
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Yeah, they're not grafted in,
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they don't come
from something else,
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so, that's what his
terminology of "natural" is,
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that which is
according to nature,
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that which is a
part of a natural order
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or a natural system
in nature like a tree,
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it has branches that
it had originally, so,
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when he speaks
over here in Romans 1,
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he speaks of the natural
use and the unnatural use
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and it's
biology that teaches you
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that the sexual organs of man
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fit with the sexual
organs of the woman,
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there's a natural
kind of linkage there,
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so, these are the branches...
what he describes in chapter 11,
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there was the
domesticated olive tree
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and then you had
this other part put in
00:10:07.27\00:10:09.40
so, the term "natural" in
Romans 1 is the creation order
00:10:09.44\00:10:13.04
that God set up in Genesis,
00:10:13.07\00:10:14.54
something that
biology itself teaches you
00:10:14.58\00:10:18.81
when God made the human beings,
He made them male and female.
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Okay, but how do homosexuals...
00:10:23.82\00:10:28.06
he compares them
here to idolaters,
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how does that work?
00:10:31.49\00:10:32.83
Yeah, well, actually idolatry
comes before the practice.
00:10:32.86\00:10:37.40
- That's what he
describes. - Yes.
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Okay, so, actually these verses
are discussed in great detail
00:10:39.63\00:10:46.17
by many people,
there's much dispute over them
00:10:46.21\00:10:48.44
many writers
are questioning Paul
00:10:48.48\00:10:51.68
so those who
practice homosexuality...
00:10:51.71\00:10:55.25
are who defend it
00:10:55.28\00:10:56.62
will dispute the applicability
of this passage to them today,
00:10:56.69\00:11:01.12
first they'll
claim... they'd say,
00:11:01.19\00:11:03.66
"Wait, we're not idolaters"
00:11:03.73\00:11:05.29
and some will say,
"Paul had this idea
00:11:05.33\00:11:09.66
that idolatry is what caused
homosexual practice orientation,
00:11:09.73\00:11:15.50
and that if
idolatry were to disappear,
00:11:15.54\00:11:18.04
so would homosexuality,
00:11:18.07\00:11:19.47
that's the argument
that some people will say,
00:11:19.51\00:11:22.91
They'll say,
"Wait, we're not idolaters
00:11:22.94\00:11:24.28
and Paul's ideas
are kind of mixed up"
00:11:24.31\00:11:26.45
they insist that
this passage describes
00:11:26.48\00:11:29.32
not the people with
homosexual orientation
00:11:29.35\00:11:32.15
but heterosexual people
00:11:32.19\00:11:33.89
who exchanged
their sexual expression
00:11:33.96\00:11:37.79
for homosexual expression
and since homosexuals themselves
00:11:37.83\00:11:42.43
do not make the exchange,
00:11:42.46\00:11:44.60
in other words they're trying
to be true to their orientation
00:11:44.63\00:11:47.44
that the text does
not apply to them either
00:11:47.47\00:11:50.11
they'd even go further in to say
00:11:50.14\00:11:52.04
that if they were to "change"
and try to be heterosexual
00:11:52.11\00:11:56.01
that would be
going against nature.
00:11:56.04\00:11:57.78
And how would you
respond to those arguments?
00:11:57.81\00:11:59.41
Oh, well we got to...
00:11:59.48\00:12:00.82
I got to give you
the third one first,
00:12:00.85\00:12:02.18
and then we'll come to that,
00:12:02.22\00:12:03.59
they suggest that
Paul does not understand
00:12:03.62\00:12:05.42
homosexual orientation,
00:12:05.45\00:12:07.46
and that the
person is naturally...
00:12:07.49\00:12:09.29
their birthright
being homosexual,
00:12:09.32\00:12:11.06
so homosexuals maintain
that God made them this way
00:12:11.09\00:12:13.50
and to deny this orientation
would be to go against God,
00:12:13.53\00:12:16.80
so there are three ideas,
that they're not idolaters,
00:12:16.87\00:12:20.04
that they
insist that the passage
00:12:20.14\00:12:21.87
is not talking about them
00:12:21.90\00:12:23.24
it's talking about heterosexuals
00:12:23.27\00:12:24.61
and the third idea
that their orientation means
00:12:24.64\00:12:27.94
that that's their nature,
that's the natural approach.
00:12:27.98\00:12:31.58
Okay, so, we start with
the first one about idolatry
00:12:31.61\00:12:35.15
and the basic idea we
have to come to look at
00:12:35.18\00:12:39.25
is the question
of, "What is idolatry?"
00:12:39.29\00:12:42.26
Okay, so, if I were to
ask you, "What is idolatry?"
00:12:42.29\00:12:46.26
It's to worship
something other than God.
00:12:46.29\00:12:48.20
To worship
something other than God...
00:12:48.23\00:12:50.10
that's a nice,
general way to put it,
00:12:50.17\00:12:52.60
okay, now, in the ancient world,
they used to have physical idols
00:12:52.63\00:12:57.11
that represented their gods
and they worshipped those idols
00:12:57.14\00:13:01.21
to say that they were
worshipping their gods
00:13:01.28\00:13:03.38
and things like that,
00:13:03.45\00:13:04.78
the Bible is very, very
strong against idolatry.
00:13:04.81\00:13:08.95
I heard one time
that there was a man
00:13:08.98\00:13:10.49
who read through
his Bible very quickly,
00:13:10.52\00:13:12.15
maybe a week's time,
00:13:12.19\00:13:13.56
and when he
finished, people said to him,
00:13:13.59\00:13:15.29
"So... so what's
the Bible's message?"
00:13:15.32\00:13:17.13
And he said, "Well,
there are two things,"
00:13:17.16\00:13:18.83
he said, "God hates idols"
00:13:18.86\00:13:21.90
and number two, "But He
really loves His people"
00:13:21.93\00:13:25.63
Oh, how interesting.
00:13:25.67\00:13:27.34
God hates idols but He
really loves His people
00:13:27.37\00:13:29.34
and it's true, why
does God hate idols?
00:13:29.37\00:13:32.01
Why is He so down on idols?
00:13:32.04\00:13:34.54
Because you become
like whatever you worship.
00:13:34.61\00:13:38.25
Shelley: Become what you behold.
00:13:38.28\00:13:40.25
Yeah, "By
beholding we become changed"
00:13:40.32\00:13:41.95
whatever you worship
is what you become like.
00:13:41.98\00:13:44.39
Now, people will say today,
00:13:44.42\00:13:46.62
"Well, we don't have
idolatry in the land today,
00:13:46.65\00:13:49.59
we don't have people
bowing down at graven images.
00:13:49.62\00:13:51.93
Or you think of these
poor little teen girls that are
00:13:51.96\00:13:54.30
idolizing some of
these Rock-Star type people
00:13:54.33\00:13:57.40
and you see how they
become what they behold.
00:13:57.47\00:14:00.54
There are lots of
idols in the land,
00:14:00.57\00:14:02.64
it can be money, it can
be sex, it can be power,
00:14:02.67\00:14:05.94
it can be
position, it can be any...
00:14:05.97\00:14:08.54
just like you said,
00:14:08.58\00:14:09.91
"Anything that takes the
place of God, is an idol. "
00:14:09.94\00:14:13.92
So, today in most Societies,
00:14:13.95\00:14:17.32
we don't have people
worshipping deities, you know,
00:14:17.39\00:14:20.36
in forms like that,
00:14:20.39\00:14:21.89
or in some
Societies that's still there,
00:14:21.92\00:14:23.66
Hmmm... I was just thinking,
excuse this, but this is to me
00:14:23.73\00:14:28.23
a profound thought that if
your top priority is not God,
00:14:28.26\00:14:31.70
whatever priority you
have above God, is your idol.
00:14:31.73\00:14:35.17
Tom: Yes, right. Shelley: Wow.
00:14:35.24\00:14:36.84
Where does our allegiance lie?
00:14:36.91\00:14:38.27
Okay, now, if our
allegiance lies to God,
00:14:38.31\00:14:41.34
then we submit to His
Word and to His truth.
00:14:41.38\00:14:43.95
Hmmm...
00:14:43.98\00:14:45.31
Whatever His
Scriptures teaches us
00:14:45.35\00:14:47.12
in his commands,
if we resist those,
00:14:47.15\00:14:49.05
if we say, "No, but,
I'm not going to do that"
00:14:49.08\00:14:51.45
then we're rebelling
against God, that's still...
00:14:51.49\00:14:53.86
that's really idolatry,
00:14:53.89\00:14:55.22
where we're putting
something in the place of God.
00:14:55.26\00:14:57.79
Okay, but... what
about the claim that
00:14:57.83\00:15:00.70
the passage is
about heterosexuals
00:15:00.73\00:15:03.47
who have
switched to homosexuality?
00:15:03.50\00:15:06.23
Right, to homosexual practice
00:15:06.27\00:15:07.64
or bi-sexuality... sometimes
people will describe it.
00:15:07.67\00:15:10.31
Paul uses the term, "exchange,"
00:15:10.34\00:15:12.94
okay, and this is
where people land on it,
00:15:12.97\00:15:15.58
they'll say,
"Wait... " they exchange it
00:15:15.61\00:15:17.81
homosexuals will say,
00:15:17.85\00:15:19.18
"Wait, we're not
exchanging anything
00:15:19.21\00:15:20.82
that's our orientation,
that's what we've been, okay,"
00:15:20.85\00:15:24.72
this is the reason why I
wanted to place this passage
00:15:24.75\00:15:28.59
in the broader context
of Romans chapter 1, okay,
00:15:28.62\00:15:32.83
so we could see,
in a broader sense,
00:15:32.86\00:15:35.60
what Paul is trying to describe.
00:15:35.63\00:15:37.47
In Romans 1:21 to 23, Paul
describes the pagan world's
00:15:37.50\00:15:42.97
reaction to the
revelation of God in nature,
00:15:43.00\00:15:44.94
remember, we said that
was the primal revelation...
00:15:44.97\00:15:46.88
that was the first revelation,
verse 21 clearly indicates
00:15:46.91\00:15:50.35
that they did not
glorify God, read verse 21.
00:15:50.45\00:15:53.42
"Because although they knew God,
00:15:53.45\00:15:55.55
they did not glorify Him
as God nor were thankful:
00:15:55.58\00:15:58.09
but became futile
in their thoughts,
00:15:58.12\00:15:59.69
and their foolish
hearts were darkened. "
00:15:59.72\00:16:02.42
Okay, and in
verse 22 and 23 it says,
00:16:02.46\00:16:05.09
"Claiming to be
wise they became fools,
00:16:05.16\00:16:06.73
and exchanged the
glory and will of God
00:16:06.80\00:16:08.60
for images resembling mortal man
00:16:08.63\00:16:10.07
and beasts and
animals and creeping things. "
00:16:10.10\00:16:13.84
Okay, so, when we get
to verse 23 and onward
00:16:13.87\00:16:17.51
and we read the word,
00:16:17.54\00:16:18.87
"exchanged the
glory of the invisible God
00:16:18.91\00:16:21.04
for the likeness
of perishable men
00:16:21.08\00:16:22.88
and creatures and so forth,"
00:16:22.91\00:16:24.48
we know that the
exchange does not suggest
00:16:24.51\00:16:27.88
that formally they
were worshipping God,
00:16:27.92\00:16:31.22
they never worshipped God,
00:16:31.29\00:16:34.06
they rejected what
God was saying, you see,
00:16:34.09\00:16:37.13
so there was never...
the exchange was not a case
00:16:37.16\00:16:40.00
of, "We used to do this,
now, we're going to do this. "
00:16:40.03\00:16:42.80
No, the exchange is actually
a rejection of what God had said
00:16:42.83\00:16:48.17
and they were
going to go their own way
00:16:48.20\00:16:51.04
and follow their own
path, see... right...
00:16:51.07\00:16:53.88
so, "exchange" here was at
this more fundamental level,
00:16:53.91\00:16:57.88
it was not leaving
a "former practice,"
00:16:57.91\00:17:00.98
it was the rejection
of the truth about God
00:17:01.02\00:17:04.02
and embracing
the lie of idolatry.
00:17:04.09\00:17:06.89
This is really
actually very important
00:17:06.96\00:17:09.72
when we come to verse 26
00:17:09.76\00:17:11.16
and it describes homosexual
practice as an exchange
00:17:11.23\00:17:14.70
it is not speaking
of an individual level
00:17:14.73\00:17:18.33
as though a heterosexual person
00:17:18.37\00:17:20.84
left heterosexual relations
for homosexual relations
00:17:20.87\00:17:23.91
and that that was the sin,
00:17:23.94\00:17:26.14
instead Paul is
describing people
00:17:26.17\00:17:30.35
who rejected the God-given
order of male-female relations
00:17:30.38\00:17:34.02
and instead practiced
homosexual relations, okay.
00:17:34.05\00:17:38.05
So, that...
explanation defines that
00:17:38.09\00:17:47.40
or we explained that...
00:17:47.43\00:17:49.70
what about the idea that
someone has a "birthright"
00:17:49.73\00:17:54.17
if you will of
homosexual orientation?
00:17:54.24\00:17:56.60
Right, okay, this
argument is actually more subtle
00:17:56.71\00:17:59.61
and it's
important to understand.
00:17:59.64\00:18:01.41
There's a difference between
"orientation" and "practice. "
00:18:01.48\00:18:04.05
See, orientation
is something "inside,"
00:18:04.08\00:18:07.35
your feelings or for
what you're attracted to,
00:18:07.42\00:18:11.65
okay, practice is
what you do, all right,
00:18:11.69\00:18:15.29
and so Paul is describing
here homosexual practice.
00:18:15.32\00:18:18.93
Orientation is different,
00:18:18.96\00:18:20.80
that's something that
has lots of different roots
00:18:20.83\00:18:24.33
and I'm no Psychologist,
00:18:24.37\00:18:26.50
so I don't pretend to try
to explain all those things
00:18:26.53\00:18:29.24
you know, I don't have the
answers to all those things.
00:18:29.27\00:18:31.94
So... but Paul is
describing now practice...
00:18:31.97\00:18:36.95
so as a Biblical Scholar,
I feel the question of...
00:18:36.98\00:18:40.15
when people say,
00:18:40.22\00:18:41.55
"Well, what about my birthright
of homosexual orientation?"
00:18:41.58\00:18:44.79
It mistakes the
question of "orientation"
00:18:44.82\00:18:47.69
with the question of "practice,"
Paul is describing two things
00:18:47.76\00:18:51.29
internal desires
which he calls "passions,"
00:18:51.36\00:18:55.00
and a resulting
practice in homosexual behavior.
00:18:55.03\00:18:58.80
Paul condemns the practice,
the homosexual behavior
00:18:58.83\00:19:02.50
which he over and over describes
in quite negative terms
00:19:02.54\00:19:06.78
as we've already said,
00:19:06.81\00:19:08.14
so, I give my opinion on
the matter of "orientation"
00:19:08.18\00:19:11.81
orientation is not practice,
00:19:11.85\00:19:14.22
what Paul condemns is the
practice of homosexual behavior.
00:19:14.25\00:19:18.19
Hmmm... hmmm...
00:19:18.22\00:19:19.55
"We indicate in line with
Christian teaching in general
00:19:19.59\00:19:22.72
and in harmony with the
stance of the Adventist Church,
00:19:22.76\00:19:25.03
that sexual relations
are reserved for marriage,
00:19:25.06\00:19:27.60
we've been talking about
that already in this program,
00:19:27.63\00:19:30.47
sex is for marriage
between a man and a woman,
00:19:30.50\00:19:34.27
outside of that,
00:19:34.30\00:19:35.74
whether a person is
homosexual or heterosexual,
00:19:35.77\00:19:38.64
it doesn't matter
they are to remain chaste,
00:19:38.67\00:19:41.44
they are not to
engage in homosexuality
00:19:41.51\00:19:43.95
outside of that
marriage relationship
00:19:43.98\00:19:46.38
between male and female
00:19:46.41\00:19:47.78
so, it's not a
question of orientation
00:19:47.82\00:19:50.19
we're talking
about here but practice
00:19:50.22\00:19:52.45
and remember that we did
not describe homosexuality
00:19:52.49\00:19:55.72
as the primal sin,
00:19:55.76\00:19:57.13
we didn't say that this
is one of the big things
00:19:57.16\00:20:00.30
that led to this expression
of the "wrath of God,"
00:20:00.33\00:20:03.40
actually it's a
result, it's not...
00:20:03.47\00:20:04.97
it's not the expression itself,
00:20:05.00\00:20:06.47
we said that
idolatry was the first sin
00:20:06.50\00:20:09.17
and these exchanges that
people made in a prior decision
00:20:09.24\00:20:12.44
is what Paul describes now
00:20:12.47\00:20:15.01
as showing itself
in these expressions
00:20:15.04\00:20:18.85
of these different passions
and these different problems.
00:20:18.88\00:20:21.75
You know, during Paul's
time in the ancient world,
00:20:21.78\00:20:27.79
in the Roman-Greco world
there were a lot of practices
00:20:27.86\00:20:33.90
going on, homosexual practice.
00:20:33.93\00:20:35.66
Hmmm... hmmm... there was.
00:20:35.70\00:20:37.07
And there was...
00:20:37.10\00:20:39.07
It was valued
even by the Greeks.
00:20:39.10\00:20:41.34
And this is something
that their "pederasty?"
00:20:41.37\00:20:46.34
Yes, it's called, "pederasty. "
00:20:46.37\00:20:48.28
Pederasty... what...
00:20:48.31\00:20:51.41
was Paul just
addressing that idea?
00:20:51.45\00:20:56.02
Yeah, this is another argument
that's sometimes brought up
00:20:56.05\00:20:58.72
that the Apostle Paul...
pederasty is a relationship...
00:20:58.75\00:21:03.76
a sexual relationship between...
well, it can be a man or a...
00:21:03.83\00:21:07.86
it's typically a man and a boy,
00:21:07.90\00:21:09.60
this is a boy
before he's reached puberty
00:21:09.63\00:21:12.30
and the man is
having sex with him,
00:21:12.33\00:21:13.84
all right, and that was
practiced in the ancient world
00:21:13.87\00:21:17.04
and it wasn't taken as
something terrible, okay,
00:21:17.11\00:21:22.31
so, people will say,
00:21:22.38\00:21:25.28
"Well, maybe Paul is
just talking about pederasty
00:21:25.31\00:21:28.58
and he's simply ruling that out,
00:21:28.62\00:21:31.02
okay, that you shouldn't do that
00:21:31.05\00:21:33.12
but that he approves of
committed homosexual relations"
00:21:33.15\00:21:38.03
Now, we do have
examples in the ancient world
00:21:38.06\00:21:42.36
of loving, committed
homosexual relationships
00:21:42.40\00:21:45.97
and so, sometimes
people will want to say,
00:21:46.00\00:21:49.50
"Well, they just didn't
have any of that back then
00:21:49.54\00:21:51.57
and so... it
doesn't apply to us today
00:21:51.61\00:21:53.58
because they didn't
have those experiences,"
00:21:53.61\00:21:55.38
no, they actually did
and it assumes much to assume
00:21:55.41\00:21:58.98
that the Apostle Paul
had no knowledge of that,
00:21:59.01\00:22:02.18
or any understanding
of what was going on
00:22:02.22\00:22:06.22
among the gentiles, he did,
00:22:06.25\00:22:08.59
he gives quite a
fair understanding
00:22:08.62\00:22:12.09
of what he has to say, so,
is he just describing pederasty
00:22:12.13\00:22:16.23
and that he's
really okay with...
00:22:16.26\00:22:20.17
once people become mature
00:22:20.24\00:22:24.64
and they make
decisions for themselves
00:22:24.67\00:22:26.78
that they could have
these loving relationships,
00:22:26.81\00:22:30.78
the link to Old
Testament passages
00:22:30.85\00:22:37.59
opposing homosexual practice
and Paul's arguments in Romans 1
00:22:37.62\00:22:41.02
and again in Romans...
00:22:41.06\00:22:43.63
in 1st
Corinthians 6 verses 9 and 10
00:22:43.66\00:22:46.33
indicates that this argument
doesn't really hold true,
00:22:46.36\00:22:50.57
the Apostle Paul... you see...
00:22:50.60\00:22:54.64
you'd have a
strange kind of argument
00:22:54.67\00:22:56.74
that would be involved here,
00:22:56.81\00:22:58.54
first, there is
no place in the Bible
00:22:58.57\00:23:01.74
where homosexual
practice is affirmed,
00:23:01.81\00:23:04.91
there's no text that
says, "Oh, that's good,"
00:23:04.95\00:23:07.52
there's no text that says that,
00:23:07.55\00:23:09.48
and homosexuals
who argue on that topic
00:23:09.52\00:23:12.45
and people who argue
from that same point...
00:23:12.49\00:23:14.86
they recognize that,
they agree with that,
00:23:14.89\00:23:17.23
that there is no
text that says that,
00:23:17.26\00:23:18.93
but if they say,
00:23:18.96\00:23:21.46
"Well, Paul is just not
describing homosexual practice
00:23:21.50\00:23:24.80
of a loving relationship,
he's against pederasty,"
00:23:24.87\00:23:28.30
now, that would be
rather odd reasoning
00:23:28.34\00:23:31.04
because in that case...
you see, the Greeks said
00:23:31.07\00:23:34.48
that when the boy reaches
puberty, this should stop,
00:23:34.51\00:23:37.88
this should stop, so they said,
00:23:37.91\00:23:40.32
"It's okay when he's a boy
00:23:40.35\00:23:41.68
but when he reaches
maturity, this should stop"
00:23:41.72\00:23:43.62
now, if Paul is
against pederasty,
00:23:43.69\00:23:46.32
he opposes what
the Greeks approve,
00:23:46.35\00:23:48.96
if when it comes to
the homosexual practice
00:23:48.99\00:23:54.33
of a later time, then,
00:23:54.36\00:23:57.27
what the Greeks just
approved Paul is approving?
00:23:57.30\00:23:59.53
That's rather odd
reasoning, you see,
00:23:59.60\00:24:02.04
it's flipping... Paul is
just the opposite of the Greeks,
00:24:02.07\00:24:04.24
while it
doesn't seem too likely,
00:24:04.31\00:24:07.31
in fact, it's what we call,
"an argument from silence,"
00:24:07.38\00:24:10.85
to argue that Paul
somehow affirms these...
00:24:10.88\00:24:15.22
even loving
homosexual practices,
00:24:15.25\00:24:17.59
there's no
statement along that line
00:24:17.62\00:24:19.32
and always "an
argument from silence"
00:24:19.35\00:24:21.06
is a weaker argument.
00:24:21.09\00:24:22.52
So, we maintain that
actually Paul is opposing
00:24:22.56\00:24:25.73
the practice of
homosexual behavior.
00:24:25.76\00:24:28.90
So, is there a parallel to
today... in today's society
00:24:28.93\00:24:37.14
in what's going on
and what Paul says?
00:24:37.21\00:24:38.74
Yes, the strong parallel
00:24:38.77\00:24:40.78
is the pluralism of
ethical traditions that we have
00:24:40.81\00:24:43.85
both in the
ancient setting and now,
00:24:43.88\00:24:45.48
the claims made that homosexual
psychosexual orientation
00:24:45.51\00:24:51.25
was not a Biblical
issue is really confused,
00:24:51.29\00:24:54.42
there's an important Biblical
Scholar named Anthony Thiselton
00:24:54.46\00:24:59.66
who wrote a powerful
commentary on 1st Corinthians
00:24:59.69\00:25:04.27
that I like a lot,
00:25:04.30\00:25:05.90
it's in the New
International Greek Testament
00:25:05.93\00:25:08.17
Commentary Series,
bit fat, thick book
00:25:08.20\00:25:10.71
on 1st Corinthians
and... so this is what Thiselton
00:25:10.74\00:25:15.58
concluded as he
describes this whole issue,
00:25:15.61\00:25:20.22
he says, "Paul addresses
every form of 'desire,'
00:25:20.25\00:25:24.35
whether
heterosexual or materialistic,
00:25:24.39\00:25:27.09
and distinguishes between
passionate longing and action.
00:25:27.16\00:25:30.83
It is true that
'homosexual orientation'
00:25:30.86\00:25:33.63
does not feature as a
phenomenon for explicit comment,
00:25:33.70\00:25:36.46
but to dismiss the parallel that
is between heterosexual desire
00:25:36.50\00:25:40.67
and an illicit habitual
heterosexual relationship
00:25:40.74\00:25:43.54
is itself to
isolate same-sex relations
00:25:43.61\00:25:46.68
from other ethical issues
in a way which such writers
00:25:46.71\00:25:50.68
as Furnish, Scroggs, Boswell,
and Nelson rightly deplore...
00:25:50.75\00:25:54.12
Paul witnessed around him
00:25:54.15\00:25:55.72
both abusive
relationships of power or money
00:25:55.75\00:25:58.62
and examples of
'genuine love' between males.
00:25:58.65\00:26:00.96
We must not misunderstand
Paul's 'worldly' knowledge. "
00:26:00.99\00:26:04.93
Shelley: Hmmm...
Tom: That's from page 452
00:26:04.96\00:26:08.50
in his commentary, so
basically what he's saying is
00:26:08.53\00:26:11.83
Paul knew about these
things, he knew it was going on
00:26:11.87\00:26:15.17
these are pretty
strong statements
00:26:15.20\00:26:18.17
that I have been making
here in talking about this,
00:26:18.21\00:26:20.81
it's a serious topic,
00:26:20.88\00:26:22.81
I want to go back to some
of the things that we said
00:26:22.88\00:26:26.25
at the beginning when
we were talking about Rome,
00:26:26.28\00:26:29.65
was... why does
Paul talk like this?
00:26:29.68\00:26:31.02
What is he describing,
he's describing a sinful world
00:26:31.05\00:26:34.66
that needs the gospel,
that needs the love of God,
00:26:34.69\00:26:37.96
for the change that is
necessary for us to actually
00:26:37.99\00:26:41.26
to be saved, all
of us are sinners,
00:26:41.30\00:26:43.97
Paul goes on in
Romans 1 to describe people
00:26:44.00\00:26:46.40
who do other kinds of practices
that are rampant in our Society,
00:26:46.43\00:26:49.57
you see some of those kinds of
things happening in the church,
00:26:49.60\00:26:52.71
Paul is down on sin and he
says that we are all sinners
00:26:52.74\00:26:57.38
who need the grace of
God to bring us out of that,
00:26:57.45\00:27:00.35
it is my prayer that
this kind of experience
00:27:00.42\00:27:03.82
of salvation can be
one that we all experience
00:27:03.89\00:27:07.26
and find the love of God.
00:27:07.29\00:27:09.72
Amen, amen, and
that's something that...
00:27:09.76\00:27:11.96
when it comes to listening what
are abominations to the Lord,
00:27:11.99\00:27:16.53
lying tongue is an
abomination to the Lord,
00:27:16.56\00:27:19.00
we... this is something that...
00:27:19.03\00:27:20.94
as Paul said, repeatedly,
00:27:20.97\00:27:25.34
that it is only by the
righteousness of Jesus Christ
00:27:25.37\00:27:29.11
that heirs can be
saved, we're all sinners
00:27:29.14\00:27:31.55
and praise the Lord for
the good news of the gospel
00:27:31.58\00:27:35.42
that is from faith to faith.
00:27:35.45\00:27:36.79
This has been a
very sensitive topic
00:27:36.82\00:27:39.32
but I feel like I've
learned some things from you,
00:27:39.35\00:27:41.62
and I want to thank you
00:27:41.66\00:27:42.99
and we just want to
thank you for staying tuned
00:27:43.02\00:27:46.29
we've learned a lot,
00:27:46.36\00:27:47.70
I think, this is the end on the
sex, we're getting ready to...
00:27:47.73\00:27:50.17
the next program
will be on divorce,
00:27:50.20\00:27:51.53
is that correct?
Tom: That is correct.
00:27:51.57\00:27:52.90
So, we just hope that
you've learned something
00:27:52.93\00:27:56.81
from what the Bible has
to say in the New Testament
00:27:56.84\00:27:59.47
about sex and sexuality,
00:27:59.51\00:28:01.24
now, our prayer for you is that
God will multiply His mercy,
00:28:01.28\00:28:05.45
His love and His
grace to you. Good bye.
00:28:05.48\00:28:08.35