Hello, friends, grab
your Bible and a friend
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and sit back as we
explore God's word together
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on this edition of House Calls.
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Welcome to House Calls.
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The program that we believe
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is the most important
thing on television right now
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or else we
wouldn't really be on it.
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Good to have you,
John. It's good to be here.
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I tell you
whenever we get together,
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it's praise the Lord we can,
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we've been
working together so long
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that we kind of know each other
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and the
thinking even aspects of,
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of where we're at.
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Well, we
actually kind of knew that
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before we ever
started the program
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which is one of the
reasons this program exists.
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Because we said, you know,
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we are on the same
wavelength a lot of times
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and so, anyway, I
think it shows up here.
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Praise the Lord.
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And so we would
encourage you to get your Bibles
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and join us for
a thoughtful hour
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in studying God's word together.
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This program is made
up of not only the topics
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and we're gonna
begin a new topic today
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called, "Discipleship".
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Not membership, not fellowship,
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not friendship,
but discipleship.
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What does it
mean to be a disciple?
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And we're gonna look at that
not only from the New Testament
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but also from the Old
Testament perspective.
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Because the Lord has
always wanted us to be more
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than we thought we can be.
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And there is a method
by which our own growth
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and use in
ministry is made possible.
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And discipleship is significant
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when it comes to who
you become in Christ.
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Before we go in
letting, letting you know
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where to send your
questions and comments,
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we always believe
it's important to pray
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and ask for the Lord's leading.
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And John is always
the on-air designated one
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who prays.
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So, John, pray
for us. Thank you.
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Father in Heaven,
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again we ask for Your
Spirit to be here with us
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as we study Your word.
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We cannot
understand the things of God
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unless Your Spirit
tells us and teaches us
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what You're doing
here through Your word,
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and so we pray that
You would be here with us
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and speak to each person
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listening and
viewing this program,
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in Jesus' name, amen.
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Amen.
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Thank you so much
for that prayer, John,
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we really appreciate it.
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This topic is
gonna be an exciting one
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but before we do anything
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we get into our Bible questions.
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That's right.
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Bible questions
are so important,
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we always thank you for sending
those questions and comments.
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And if we you have any of
that, you would like to send,
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send those
questions and comments
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to housecalls@3abn.org.
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That's housecalls@3abn.org,
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and we're sure
you'll appreciate it.
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What do you have today, John?
I know you have a question.
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Yeah, I've got a
question here from David.
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And he says, what
does the Bible say
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about giving testimony in places
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where a believer
in Christ feels here
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she isn't allowed to
grow his or her convictions
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of the Bible,
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like being part of a
circle of meditation in school?
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Could it be rightly justified
to desire to change schools?
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So we have to infer
a few things from this.
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It sounds like the
school is not allowing them
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to give a testimony to
express their convictions.
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But more than that,
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they probably have some
wide differences of opinion
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in regard to those convictions.
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The one text that
comes to mind, John,
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is the one where Jesus send,
He's sending out His disciples
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and He says, "I'm
sending you out as lambs
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among wolves."
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Jesus knows that
the gospel was going to,
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be going to all
the world under duress.
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So in many respects I
would advocate for someone
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to share their faith in areas
where the gospel is needed.
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And I'm just speaking
in practical terms here
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at this point.
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But in some cases
where it becomes oppressive,
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say in a school
that you have to attend,
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or a place you have to
work or something to not,
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to be shut down and
to not be allowed to,
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more than not be allowed
to express your opinions,
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but when you
express your opinions to be,
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to come under great scrutiny.
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I would say that, yes, there,
I don't think there's something
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that we need to
subject ourselves too.
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It's one of the reasons
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why the Seventh-day
Adventist Church has
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the largest Protestant
parochial school system
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in the world
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is because we believe
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that people
should be able to grow up
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in an
environment that is conducive
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to allowing them
to share their faith
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and express
their growth in Christ
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and what Christ means to them
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without having
to be under duress.
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And so it's one of the things
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that we believe in
as Seventh-day Adventist
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that our church is very strong
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and that education isn't
just a knowledge of the arts,
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or knowledge of
sciences, or mathematics,
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but it includes
the whole person,
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it's a holistic approach
to our education system.
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So I don't know exactly
what David is going through
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but it could be, yes,
that he may need to look
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to move elsewhere
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where he can
feel less under duress
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to be able to share
his faith and things.
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Yet, there are some
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that do advocate or
do take the position
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that when they're amongst people
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that don't know the gospel
or haven't heard the gospel
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that it's great opportunity
to share their faith.
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And so sometimes God calls us
into those situations as well.
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I don't know where they are
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or where David is in
his education either,
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it could be that he's
in college or something,
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maybe there are no opportunities
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for a school system
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that is
supportive of his beliefs,
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but we are called regardless,
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and I think you
know this too, John,
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that we're to share
our faith wherever we go.
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There may be limits to that,
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but sharing doesn't
mean just with words.
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A loving kind of
Christian that is encouraging,
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that is positive can be a
larger or greater testimony
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than someone
that tells the facts,
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the intellectual
facts about the gospel.
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That's right.
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So I think there's
that aspect to consider too,
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so hopefully you know,
I've covered a few areas
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that David may be
able to think about here
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and his decision is to
where he might go from here.
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Okay, thank you for that. Yeah.
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That's more along
the lines of counsel
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to give somebody
insight to what the future holds
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and how the Lord
could lead and guide
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in that particular
venture for the future.
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Todd from Kentucky,
Todd sent us a snail mail.
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Says, "Please help me with this.
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I've heard several teachers say
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Christ is going
to destroy the wicked
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at the second
coming or a.k.a. rapture,
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and that is the visible
snatching way of the church.
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But I can't find it,
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the closest I can get to
it is 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
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Let's stop by looking
at 2 Thessalonians 2:8,
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and I'll share with you
another couple of scriptures
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that will give you
some support in that area.
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Okay.
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2 Thessalonians 2:8,
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and I have it
here in front of me.
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It says, "And the lawless..."
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Here I am, okay.
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Those who appreciate
this text, here it is, okay.
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And, here we are, okay,
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2 Thessalonians 2:8,
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"And then the
lawless one will be revealed,
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whom the Lord will consume
with the breath of His mouth
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and destroy with the
brightness of His coming."
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That is in fact
speaking particularly
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about the man of sin,
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and the man of sin
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in fact speaks of the deception
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or is connected to deception
that 2 Thessalonians refers to,
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let no one deceive
you by any means that,
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that they will not come
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unless there comes
a falling away first.
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The man of sin is
connected to that.
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But he, that is speaking
particularly of the man of sin
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but to give you a
broader view, go to Jeremiah 25.
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In Jeremiah 25.
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You see the clear suggestion is,
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one of the reasons why
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the wicked will be destroyed
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by the brightness of
the coming of the Lord
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is they have not
been given immortality,
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they don't have immortality.
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So they cannot withstand
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who shall stand in the evil day,
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they cannot stand, who
shall be able to stand,
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they won't be able to stand.
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Jeremiah 25:33.
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I'll start with verse 31.
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"A noise will come to
the ends of the earth,
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for the Lord has a
controversy with the nations,
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He will plead His
case with all flesh."
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And here is the text,
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"He will give those who
are wicked to the sword,"
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says the Lord.
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That is when He returns
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because He returns with
the sword of the Spirit,
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which is the Word of God.
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But he says in verse 32,
thus says the Lord of hosts,
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"Behold, disaster shall go forth
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from nation to nation,
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and a great
whirlwind shall be raised up
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from the farthest
parts of the earth.
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And verse 33,
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"And at that day
the slain of the Lord
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shall be from
one end of the earth
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even to the
other end of the earth.
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They shall not be lamented,
or gathered, or buried,
00:10:00.33\00:10:05.83
they shall become
refuse on the ground."
00:10:05.87\00:10:09.40
In another
words, when that comes,
00:10:09.44\00:10:11.31
the wicked are going
to be dead everywhere.
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And the reason
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why they're going to
be dead everywhere is
00:10:15.31\00:10:17.11
as Matthew talks about
there are two categories,
00:10:17.15\00:10:20.65
the sheep on the right
hand, the goats on the left.
00:10:20.68\00:10:24.09
The sheep will be
gathered into the barn
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that is into the
harvest, they'll be gathered in,
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and I'll use the wheat here,
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the wheat will be
gathered into the harvest
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because they are the wheat,
00:10:34.80\00:10:36.13
but the tears which also
is represented by the goat
00:10:36.16\00:10:38.47
will be gathered and
bound in bundles to burn,
00:10:38.50\00:10:42.17
so you see clearly.
00:10:42.20\00:10:43.54
And when the Lord comes back
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with the
brightness of His coming,
00:10:44.94\00:10:46.37
the Bible says, "A fiery stream
00:10:46.41\00:10:49.14
shall issue and come
forth from before Him."
00:10:49.18\00:10:52.38
A fiery stream,
00:10:52.41\00:10:53.82
that's the glory
of His second coming,
00:10:53.85\00:10:55.98
that is the fire
that as Peter says,
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"The day that
comes shall burn them up,
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the day that comes
it's burning as an oven."
00:11:01.32\00:11:03.12
Do you have that one in Peter?
00:11:03.16\00:11:06.16
But where I want to go to now
00:11:06.19\00:11:08.23
is the reference for
the suggestion I made
00:11:08.26\00:11:10.77
in Revelation, let's
go to Revelation now.
00:11:10.80\00:11:13.57
Revelation 6,
00:11:13.60\00:11:15.40
what will the wicked
be doing on that day?
00:11:15.44\00:11:18.17
That will cause them to be...
00:11:18.21\00:11:25.08
That will cause
them to be fearful
00:11:25.11\00:11:26.75
of the coming of the Lord.
00:11:26.78\00:11:28.62
Notice what the Bible
says, Revelation 6:15,
00:11:28.65\00:11:35.29
"And the kings of the earth,
the great men, the rich men,
00:11:35.32\00:11:39.19
the commanders, the mighty men,
00:11:39.23\00:11:41.73
every slave, and every free man,
00:11:41.76\00:11:45.10
hid themselves in the caves
00:11:45.13\00:11:47.20
and in the rocks
of the mountains,
00:11:47.24\00:11:49.24
and said to the rocks and
the mountains, fall on us,
00:11:49.27\00:11:52.71
that's that destruction,
00:11:52.74\00:11:54.48
and hide us from the face of Him
00:11:54.51\00:11:56.81
who sits on the throne and
from the wrath of the lamb,
00:11:56.85\00:12:00.68
for the great day
of His wrath has come
00:12:00.72\00:12:04.25
and who is able to stand."
00:12:04.29\00:12:07.09
So the wrath of God
00:12:07.12\00:12:08.86
will be poured out
on those who are alive.
00:12:08.89\00:12:12.29
That is the
wicked that are alive,
00:12:12.33\00:12:14.66
and that's why when the Bible
speaks about the second death
00:12:14.70\00:12:17.83
even if you were,
00:12:17.87\00:12:21.00
even if you never die
before the coming of the Lord,
00:12:21.04\00:12:23.41
you will
experience the first death.
00:12:23.44\00:12:26.41
And that's why the Bible
always refers to the wicked
00:12:26.44\00:12:28.71
who are ultimately destroyed
as this is the second death.
00:12:28.74\00:12:33.65
Some wicked
people have already died.
00:12:33.68\00:12:35.92
They'll come up in
the second resurrection
00:12:35.95\00:12:37.79
to be destroyed
in the lake of fire,
00:12:37.82\00:12:40.06
but the wicked that'd
be alive when Jesus comes
00:12:40.09\00:12:42.76
will be slain by the
brightness of His coming
00:12:42.79\00:12:45.26
and that's in 2
Thessalonians 2:8,
00:12:45.29\00:12:49.86
pretty much.
00:12:49.90\00:12:51.23
Yeah, I think one
of the confusing things
00:12:51.27\00:12:52.60
in regard to the secret rapture
00:12:52.63\00:12:53.97
is those that pick and
choose scriptures from the Bible
00:12:54.00\00:12:56.30
to support that
00:12:56.34\00:12:57.74
are confusing the two times
that He will come, you know,
00:12:57.77\00:13:02.44
the Bible is clear that
there is a second coming.
00:13:02.48\00:13:04.58
That's right.
00:13:04.61\00:13:05.95
And at the second coming,
00:13:05.98\00:13:07.32
there will be a
resurrection of the saints.
00:13:07.35\00:13:08.72
That's right.
00:13:08.75\00:13:10.09
But also says that
there will be a third coming
00:13:10.12\00:13:11.85
which is after
the thousand years
00:13:11.89\00:13:14.69
for the judgment
00:13:14.72\00:13:16.42
where the
judgment seat of God is set
00:13:16.46\00:13:18.03
and all must appear
before that judgment seat
00:13:18.06\00:13:20.76
those who have done evil.
00:13:20.80\00:13:23.97
And those two
passages, those two events,
00:13:24.00\00:13:27.80
and the descriptions of
them in scripture are confused
00:13:27.84\00:13:31.51
as bookends of a
seven years of tribulation
00:13:31.54\00:13:36.64
which is what the
secret rapture theorizes.
00:13:36.68\00:13:40.12
Where there is a secret rapture,
00:13:40.15\00:13:41.48
at the beginning
the church is taken up
00:13:41.52\00:13:43.49
and they're out of,
away from the tribulation,
00:13:43.52\00:13:45.89
the tribulation
happens for seven years
00:13:45.92\00:13:47.56
and at the end Jesus
comes down with the saints
00:13:47.59\00:13:51.49
but the truth is, is
that the saints go up
00:13:51.53\00:13:53.73
at the second coming with Christ
00:13:53.76\00:13:55.33
in a visible second coming,
00:13:55.36\00:13:57.73
and that at the end
of the thousand years
00:13:57.77\00:13:59.80
there's a third coming of Christ
00:13:59.83\00:14:01.17
with the saints
in the New Jerusalem
00:14:01.20\00:14:02.67
that sits down on the earth
00:14:02.70\00:14:04.04
and that's
described in Revelation 21.
00:14:04.07\00:14:07.14
So this is the
confusion that sometime is,
00:14:07.18\00:14:09.88
sometimes is there,
00:14:09.91\00:14:11.25
hence there are
passages throughout scripture
00:14:11.28\00:14:12.88
as you mentioned from Jeremiah
00:14:12.91\00:14:14.68
that speak of the
coming of the Lord,
00:14:14.72\00:14:16.72
which one is it?
00:14:16.75\00:14:18.09
Where is it, where is it placed?
00:14:18.12\00:14:19.72
And understanding those events
00:14:19.75\00:14:21.09
can be a little
bit tricky sometimes,
00:14:21.12\00:14:23.22
but if you put
all the text together
00:14:23.26\00:14:24.73
you will find very clearly
there's no secret rapture,
00:14:24.76\00:14:27.36
there is no time
where Jesus comes
00:14:27.40\00:14:28.80
but He doesn't appear.
00:14:28.83\00:14:30.17
That's right.
00:14:30.20\00:14:31.83
There's a rapture of the saints
00:14:31.87\00:14:34.37
which is described
in 1 Thessalonians 4,
00:14:34.40\00:14:37.11
catching them up to
meet them in the air,
00:14:37.14\00:14:39.07
to meet Him in the air,
00:14:39.11\00:14:40.44
but Christ is
visible in the second coming
00:14:40.48\00:14:42.24
and He meets them there.
00:14:42.28\00:14:43.85
There's also a
resurrection at that same time
00:14:43.88\00:14:47.02
that 1
Thessalonians 4 describes.
00:14:47.05\00:14:51.09
And so I think
some of this confusion
00:14:51.12\00:14:53.99
comes from
dispensational theories
00:14:54.02\00:14:57.53
that have happened
00:14:57.56\00:14:58.89
and it came out
in the 1600-1700s
00:14:58.93\00:15:03.63
that have become
very confusing today
00:15:03.67\00:15:05.10
because of books published,
00:15:05.13\00:15:07.54
in fact it goes back
even to Darby and Scofield.
00:15:07.57\00:15:10.11
That's right, John N. Darby.
00:15:10.14\00:15:11.57
And so the secret rapture,
00:15:11.61\00:15:12.94
there is no
secret about the rapture
00:15:12.97\00:15:14.64
we agree with a rapture,
a catching up of the saints,
00:15:14.68\00:15:17.95
but usually the word
rapture is used in the context
00:15:17.98\00:15:19.98
of a secret rapture
00:15:20.02\00:15:21.35
and that's just that he won't
find it because it's not here.
00:15:21.38\00:15:23.85
That's right,
it's not in scripture.
00:15:23.89\00:15:25.32
And so to add
another component to this
00:15:25.35\00:15:27.36
because there's another question
00:15:27.39\00:15:28.72
somebody asked me, John,
here and let me just read this
00:15:28.76\00:15:30.43
to kind of cap, to
connect it together
00:15:30.46\00:15:33.19
because these
are two pretty much
00:15:33.23\00:15:34.56
along the same lines.
00:15:34.60\00:15:35.93
It says, "Dear pastors,
00:15:35.96\00:15:37.30
am I to understand that
at the second resurrection
00:15:37.33\00:15:39.83
the wicked die at
the brightness of God,
00:15:39.87\00:15:43.37
therefore they died
00:15:43.41\00:15:44.74
before the fire
came down from heaven."
00:15:44.77\00:15:46.64
Oh, that's not the
case, they tried to,
00:15:46.68\00:15:49.08
and I could understand it,
00:15:49.11\00:15:50.45
so thank you for the
question so we can clarify this.
00:15:50.48\00:15:52.71
The wicked that are
destroyed at the brightness
00:15:52.75\00:15:54.45
of the coming of the
Lord is when Jesus comes back,
00:15:54.48\00:15:57.62
we'll look at the second coming,
00:15:57.65\00:15:59.12
we're waiting for Him.
00:15:59.15\00:16:00.56
That's what's going to
happen when Jesus returns.
00:16:00.59\00:16:03.32
He's already come
and He walked the earth,
00:16:03.36\00:16:04.86
but when He comes again,
00:16:04.89\00:16:06.23
the brightness
will destroy the wicked.
00:16:06.26\00:16:07.70
And they will be
dead for a thousand years.
00:16:07.73\00:16:10.77
And then at the end
of the thousand years,
00:16:10.80\00:16:12.77
they are resurrected in
the second resurrection.
00:16:12.80\00:16:15.67
John 5:28-29, the Bible says,
00:16:15.70\00:16:18.54
"Do not marvel at
this for the hour is coming
00:16:18.57\00:16:21.84
in which all
that are in the graves
00:16:21.88\00:16:24.28
will hear His
voice and come forth."
00:16:24.31\00:16:26.65
They that have done good
to the resurrection of life,
00:16:26.68\00:16:29.88
they that have done
evil to the resurrection
00:16:29.92\00:16:31.69
of condemnation.
00:16:31.72\00:16:33.05
The King James Version says,
"Resurrection of damnation,"
00:16:33.09\00:16:36.59
meaning they're
going to be condemned
00:16:36.62\00:16:38.99
in that second resurrection.
00:16:39.03\00:16:40.70
Revelation 20:6 says,
00:16:40.73\00:16:42.36
"Blessed and holy is he
00:16:42.40\00:16:43.80
who has part in
the first resurrection
00:16:43.83\00:16:46.20
over such, the
second death has no power."
00:16:46.23\00:16:49.67
That's right.
00:16:49.70\00:16:51.04
So the second
resurrection is the second death
00:16:51.07\00:16:53.88
and they don't
occur at the same time.
00:16:53.91\00:16:55.88
And so in context to
that, let me read to you,
00:16:55.91\00:16:59.71
to give you
what's going to happen
00:16:59.75\00:17:01.08
at the second coming of Jesus.
00:17:01.12\00:17:03.95
Psalm 50:3,
00:17:03.99\00:17:07.26
I'm going to
read down to verse 5.
00:17:07.29\00:17:10.13
Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come,
00:17:10.16\00:17:13.36
and shall not keep silent, a
fire shall devour before him,
00:17:13.40\00:17:19.73
and it shall be very tempestuous
00:17:19.77\00:17:22.14
all around about him.
00:17:22.17\00:17:23.71
He shall call to the heavens
from above, and to the earth,
00:17:23.74\00:17:28.34
that he may judge his people.
00:17:28.38\00:17:30.55
Gather my saints together to me,
00:17:30.58\00:17:33.11
those who have made a
covenant with me by sacrifice.
00:17:33.15\00:17:36.99
Let the heavens
declare his righteousness,
00:17:37.02\00:17:39.59
for God himself is judge."
00:17:39.62\00:17:42.82
So when the Lord comes,
He's not going to be silent.
00:17:42.86\00:17:45.56
A fire shall issue and
come forth from before Him,
00:17:45.59\00:17:48.60
that is the
brightness of His coming
00:17:48.63\00:17:50.30
that will devour the wicked.
00:17:50.33\00:17:52.87
And the unfortunate thing is,
00:17:52.90\00:17:55.14
John, sad part about that
is that's just the beginning.
00:17:55.17\00:17:59.04
They lay on the
ground, they are not lamented,
00:17:59.07\00:18:00.91
nor gathered, nor buried as
we just read in Jeremiah 25.
00:18:00.94\00:18:04.08
Nobody is there, there
are no funeral parlors,
00:18:04.11\00:18:06.95
there are no funeral
services, there are no burial,
00:18:06.98\00:18:09.65
there is nobody mourning
them, they will not be lamented,
00:18:09.68\00:18:12.39
or gathered, or buried,
00:18:12.42\00:18:14.26
but they will be
refuse on the ground.
00:18:14.29\00:18:17.03
Can you imagine
that sight, John?
00:18:17.06\00:18:21.03
Yeah, but my imagination
I think fall short of
00:18:21.06\00:18:23.16
how it's going to be,
00:18:23.20\00:18:24.53
but it's just
an amazing thought.
00:18:24.57\00:18:25.90
If you were to
drive around the world
00:18:25.93\00:18:28.10
and just look everywhere
you see fallen humanity
00:18:28.14\00:18:32.71
just laying there
00:18:32.74\00:18:34.61
and rotting for
thousand years just
00:18:34.64\00:18:38.65
and when the thousand years
the earth would have been...
00:18:38.68\00:18:42.25
Somebody showed a time lapse
00:18:42.28\00:18:43.62
once I saw this
on history channel,
00:18:43.65\00:18:45.55
so much over the time lapse,
00:18:45.59\00:18:47.09
if all humans
died from some kind of,
00:18:47.12\00:18:50.06
they call it some
kind of atomic blast,
00:18:50.09\00:18:52.63
they don't use the word atomic,
00:18:52.66\00:18:54.00
I think plutonium
blast would only kill humans,
00:18:54.03\00:18:57.07
this kind of whatever they use
00:18:57.10\00:18:58.77
but it didn't destroy buildings.
00:18:58.80\00:19:01.04
It only killed
humans, not even animals.
00:19:01.07\00:19:03.37
And they showed how the
planet will become overrun,
00:19:03.41\00:19:05.84
buildings will just
start to decay and fall apart.
00:19:05.87\00:19:09.18
Wherever, you
know, we cut our lawns,
00:19:09.21\00:19:11.91
all of a sudden
wild grass will grow
00:19:11.95\00:19:13.98
and trees will start
growing out of anywhere
00:19:14.02\00:19:15.85
and break through,
00:19:15.88\00:19:17.22
and they said
everything around us
00:19:17.25\00:19:18.59
will just begin to fall apart.
00:19:18.62\00:19:19.95
And I could
imagine a thousand years
00:19:19.99\00:19:21.52
with the earth unattended,
can you imagine the decay
00:19:21.56\00:19:25.66
and just a natural
process of degradation
00:19:25.69\00:19:28.53
that takes place at the
end of the thousand years,
00:19:28.56\00:19:31.00
that's why the Bible says,
00:19:31.03\00:19:32.37
they become refuse on
the ground, clothing strewn,
00:19:32.40\00:19:35.27
they're just rot,
bodies everywhere,
00:19:35.30\00:19:37.91
skeletals that
have just become...
00:19:37.94\00:19:40.68
This is just an awesome sight.
00:19:40.71\00:19:43.18
So why would you reject Jesus?
00:19:43.21\00:19:45.45
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:45.48\00:19:48.75
I have a quick
question here from Carlos.
00:19:48.78\00:19:52.25
Okay.
00:19:52.29\00:19:54.09
And he was watching the program
00:19:54.12\00:19:55.49
on the day that he
sent this question in.
00:19:55.52\00:19:58.29
And he says in John
6:65, God calls people to Him.
00:19:58.33\00:20:01.93
Why would He call
people who would fall away?
00:20:01.96\00:20:04.43
I think there are some
different theories out there
00:20:08.70\00:20:11.91
as to predestination.
00:20:11.94\00:20:14.71
Okay.
00:20:14.74\00:20:16.08
And I think in some cases
00:20:16.11\00:20:18.51
that word is very misunderstood.
00:20:18.55\00:20:21.42
Because in Titus,
Paul says very clearly
00:20:21.45\00:20:24.09
that the salvation of
God has appeared to all men.
00:20:24.12\00:20:26.96
Everyone has an
opportunity to be saved.
00:20:26.99\00:20:30.03
Christ has put
off His second coming
00:20:30.06\00:20:33.50
as we just talked about
00:20:33.53\00:20:34.86
so that no one
would have to perish.
00:20:34.90\00:20:37.57
So this time of probation
00:20:37.60\00:20:38.93
so to speak for
mankind is being left open
00:20:38.97\00:20:41.00
so that everybody
can hear the gospel.
00:20:41.04\00:20:43.34
God is inclusive, He's
trying to get people in,
00:20:43.37\00:20:45.57
not keep them out.
00:20:45.61\00:20:47.38
And so this whole
idea of predestination
00:20:47.41\00:20:49.21
that some are going to be lost
from the moment they're born,
00:20:49.24\00:20:53.15
they're predestined to be lost,
00:20:53.18\00:20:55.88
that comes from
00:20:55.92\00:20:57.25
some of the Calvinistic
teachings of the past,
00:20:57.29\00:20:59.09
it's just not biblical.
00:20:59.12\00:21:02.69
And so what Jesus is
saying in John 6:65 is
00:21:02.72\00:21:07.63
more in regard to
those who are following Him,
00:21:07.66\00:21:10.97
and those who do not believe
but were still following Him
00:21:11.00\00:21:14.77
and that how God
would not grant them
00:21:14.80\00:21:18.64
full access to Jesus
00:21:18.67\00:21:21.28
because of that ulterior motive,
00:21:21.31\00:21:25.31
Jesus wouldn't
be fully manifested
00:21:25.35\00:21:26.88
or understood by them
00:21:26.92\00:21:28.72
because of their
rejection of Him.
00:21:28.75\00:21:30.75
So what it's saying
there, there are many
00:21:30.79\00:21:33.89
who are in the
world who profess Christ,
00:21:33.92\00:21:35.92
but don't really follow Him.
00:21:35.96\00:21:38.16
And so I think their destiny
depends more on their decision
00:21:38.19\00:21:43.57
and their
commitment to follow Christ
00:21:43.60\00:21:45.57
and receiving His salvation
00:21:45.60\00:21:47.40
that it does
Christ holding them off
00:21:47.44\00:21:50.81
or not allowing them to
come to Him for salvation, okay.
00:21:50.84\00:21:54.91
So there's no
predestination here going on.
00:21:54.94\00:21:58.08
It's really the decision
for us to accept salvation
00:21:58.11\00:22:02.35
or to be lost because
we rejected is up to us.
00:22:02.38\00:22:07.66
It's not up to us,
we can't save ourselves,
00:22:07.69\00:22:10.49
but certainly Jesus saves us
00:22:10.53\00:22:12.93
and we must go to
Him for that salvation
00:22:12.96\00:22:14.93
if we're going to receive it.
00:22:14.96\00:22:16.30
You know,
predestination as you said
00:22:16.33\00:22:17.67
is something
that's misunderstood.
00:22:17.70\00:22:19.30
Jesus didn't set the world
00:22:19.33\00:22:21.60
in order like us spinning a cork
00:22:21.64\00:22:24.27
and just let it stay
there and continue to rotate
00:22:24.31\00:22:26.51
based on the draw of
gravity or the magnetic fields,
00:22:26.54\00:22:31.05
He didn't set the world
in motion and just leave it
00:22:31.08\00:22:33.31
and decide to go someplace else
00:22:33.35\00:22:35.22
and He'll come back
whenever He's ready,
00:22:35.25\00:22:37.62
but the word predestined is used
00:22:37.65\00:22:39.32
in the Bible at
least four times.
00:22:39.35\00:22:41.66
In Romans 8:29, you
find this predestination
00:22:41.69\00:22:46.09
that's talked about
here is not predestined
00:22:46.13\00:22:47.90
in the sense of
controlling and manipulating,
00:22:47.93\00:22:50.13
but He's made
provision, that's the key.
00:22:50.17\00:22:52.60
Let me give you an example.
00:22:52.63\00:22:53.97
If the plane was in the terminal
00:22:54.00\00:22:56.27
and someone bought you a ticket,
00:22:56.30\00:22:58.31
they predestined
you to take a trip
00:22:58.34\00:23:00.98
but you've got to
accept the journey,
00:23:01.01\00:23:03.41
if you accept the
ticket and the map
00:23:03.45\00:23:06.45
and all the amenities that
they have laid out for you,
00:23:06.48\00:23:09.32
then you're
predestined to have a good time.
00:23:09.35\00:23:12.69
They predestined
all these things,
00:23:12.72\00:23:14.06
the place you're going to
stay, the hotel reservations,
00:23:14.09\00:23:16.62
the flight, they paid
for your first class tickets,
00:23:16.66\00:23:19.79
they paid for
everything, that's all set,
00:23:19.83\00:23:22.36
that's predestined,
it's determined right there.
00:23:22.40\00:23:25.40
And so you say, well, okay,
if I accept this, what happens,
00:23:25.43\00:23:28.87
then they begin to outline.
00:23:28.90\00:23:31.31
The predestination
that the Bible talks about
00:23:31.34\00:23:33.74
is the Lord has
made it possible for us,
00:23:33.78\00:23:36.28
Romans 8:29,
00:23:36.31\00:23:38.01
"For whom he foreknew,
00:23:38.05\00:23:41.08
he also
predestined to be conformed
00:23:41.12\00:23:43.45
to the image of his son,
00:23:43.49\00:23:44.95
that he might be the
first born among many brethren.
00:23:44.99\00:23:48.96
Moreover whom he predestined
these he also called."
00:23:48.99\00:23:53.13
Romans 8:30,
00:23:53.16\00:23:54.70
"Whom he called
these he also justified,
00:23:54.73\00:23:58.30
whom he justified
these he also glorified."
00:23:58.33\00:24:02.14
And so the Lord is saying,
00:24:02.17\00:24:03.57
if you accept
the predestined plan
00:24:03.61\00:24:05.67
I have in place,
00:24:05.71\00:24:07.21
you'll be not only sons
00:24:07.24\00:24:09.78
but you will be called,
00:24:09.81\00:24:11.95
you'll be
justified, you'll be glorified.
00:24:11.98\00:24:14.65
Once you step into my plan,
00:24:14.68\00:24:16.52
these are the things
that's going to happen,
00:24:16.55\00:24:18.15
that's the predestination,
00:24:18.19\00:24:19.52
not the manipulation
of your life, not like,
00:24:19.55\00:24:21.79
I don't want to
be saved, please no.
00:24:21.82\00:24:23.86
Yeah.
00:24:23.89\00:24:25.23
That's not what
predestination is.
00:24:25.26\00:24:26.86
And that's what
happens in Ephesians 1:15,
00:24:26.90\00:24:29.63
"Having predestined
us to adoption as sons
00:24:29.66\00:24:33.60
by Jesus Christ to Himself,
00:24:33.64\00:24:35.70
according to the good
pleasure of His will."
00:24:35.74\00:24:38.87
So that's the
whole Him, we want...
00:24:38.91\00:24:41.34
Oh, let me show you the text.
00:24:41.38\00:24:43.45
1 John 3, John, read that
00:24:43.48\00:24:44.95
unless you have one
that you want to read.
00:24:44.98\00:24:46.35
No, 1 John 3. 1 John 3.
00:24:46.38\00:24:48.92
This is what happens
00:24:48.95\00:24:51.02
when you accept the
predestined plan of God,
00:24:51.05\00:24:54.72
not the manipulation of God,
00:24:54.76\00:24:57.03
and it's something that
works itself out gradually.
00:24:57.06\00:24:58.99
Okay?
00:24:59.03\00:25:00.36
What verses do
you want me to read?
00:25:00.40\00:25:01.73
1 John 3:1 and then verse 2.
00:25:01.76\00:25:05.83
"Behold, what manner of love
the Father has bestowed on us,
00:25:05.87\00:25:09.34
that we should be
called the children of God."
00:25:09.37\00:25:11.27
Okay, right.
00:25:11.31\00:25:13.01
What are we
called? Children of God.
00:25:13.04\00:25:14.54
Okay, He
predestined us to be sons.
00:25:14.58\00:25:18.08
If we accept Him,
we're the children of God.
00:25:18.11\00:25:20.62
Keep going.
00:25:20.65\00:25:22.72
"Therefore the
world does not know us
00:25:22.75\00:25:24.69
because it did not know Him."
00:25:24.72\00:25:26.05
And now look at this
beautiful plan, verse 2.
00:25:26.09\00:25:27.96
"Beloved, now we
are the children of God
00:25:27.99\00:25:31.09
and it's not yet been
revealed what we shall be
00:25:31.13\00:25:33.60
but we know that
when he is revealed
00:25:33.63\00:25:35.46
we shall be like Him, for
we shall see Him as He is."
00:25:35.50\00:25:38.43
That's the text again.
00:25:38.47\00:25:40.20
Whom He
predestined, in Romans 8:29,
00:25:40.24\00:25:44.57
whom He
predestined He also called,
00:25:44.61\00:25:46.61
whom He called,
He also justified,
00:25:46.64\00:25:48.41
whom He justified
these He also glorified.
00:25:48.44\00:25:51.51
One day we will see
ourselves in the glory
00:25:51.55\00:25:53.52
that He always knew we could be.
00:25:53.55\00:25:56.08
We know that when He
appears we shall be like Him,
00:25:56.12\00:26:00.76
for we will see Him as He is,
00:26:00.79\00:26:02.69
He predestined us
to be sons of God.
00:26:02.72\00:26:05.76
And I would
include there in the text
00:26:05.79\00:26:09.80
the masculine and feminine
is included in that passage
00:26:09.83\00:26:13.23
so it's not just saying sons,
00:26:13.27\00:26:14.97
but it's really talking
about He's predestined us
00:26:15.00\00:26:17.34
to be children of God.
00:26:17.37\00:26:18.74
Once you accept Him,
00:26:18.77\00:26:20.11
He says now you haven't seen
what you're going to look like
00:26:20.14\00:26:23.38
but I can guarantee you,
00:26:23.41\00:26:25.35
I've predestined you
to be formed completely
00:26:25.38\00:26:28.48
to the image of the
Son, you will be like Me,
00:26:28.52\00:26:31.35
for you'll see Me as I am.
00:26:31.39\00:26:33.49
There's another
aspect to this too
00:26:33.52\00:26:34.99
is that some have said,
00:26:35.02\00:26:36.59
"Well, if God knows that
someone's going to be lost,
00:26:36.62\00:26:39.79
why does He still work
so hard to bring them in?"
00:26:39.83\00:26:43.77
You know, God has foreknowledge
00:26:43.80\00:26:47.37
but He hasn't
predetermined our destiny.
00:26:47.40\00:26:50.44
Okay? Right.
00:26:50.47\00:26:51.81
Those are two different things,
00:26:51.84\00:26:53.17
and in this respect God is just,
00:26:53.21\00:26:55.64
He is faithful to us,
00:26:55.68\00:26:57.11
He's still determined
and committed to give us
00:26:57.15\00:26:59.05
every opportunity to know Him,
00:26:59.08\00:27:01.65
to receive His salvation
and to receive eternal life,
00:27:01.68\00:27:05.19
but that doesn't mean
that He forces us to do that.
00:27:05.22\00:27:08.02
And so some will fall away,
some who have come to know Him
00:27:08.06\00:27:11.29
will fall away and will be lost,
00:27:11.33\00:27:14.50
but He still gives
them an opportunity.
00:27:14.53\00:27:16.26
I think...
00:27:16.30\00:27:18.73
think about a parent.
00:27:18.77\00:27:22.00
I think if a parent knew
00:27:22.04\00:27:23.71
ultimately what would happen
with their child if it was bad,
00:27:23.74\00:27:27.78
they would still love that child
00:27:27.81\00:27:29.38
and do all they could to
give them the opportunity.
00:27:29.41\00:27:35.18
And that's a parent,
00:27:35.22\00:27:38.65
but you know, we as parents
don't have that foreknowledge,
00:27:38.69\00:27:41.12
we don't know
00:27:41.16\00:27:42.59
but to God, for God
to actually know that
00:27:42.62\00:27:44.43
shows His great love
00:27:44.46\00:27:45.96
I think even to a greater extent
00:27:45.99\00:27:47.76
than we as parents.
00:27:47.80\00:27:49.70
True, we don't know these things
00:27:49.73\00:27:51.63
but the Lord knows,
He sees us where we are
00:27:51.67\00:27:53.67
and where we can be.
00:27:53.70\00:27:55.04
Still He pursues us
and wants to save us
00:27:55.07\00:27:57.31
and that's why it's a blessing.
00:27:57.34\00:27:58.67
And so when we fall away,
00:27:58.71\00:28:00.34
we talked about
that in 2 Thessalonians,
00:28:00.38\00:28:01.98
that day will not come
00:28:02.01\00:28:03.68
unless there comes
a falling away first,
00:28:03.71\00:28:05.68
some people are
going to fall away,
00:28:05.71\00:28:07.32
Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews
6:6, "If they fall away,"
00:28:07.35\00:28:13.02
let me read verse 4,
00:28:13.05\00:28:14.39
"For it is impossible for
those who once were enlightened,
00:28:14.42\00:28:18.56
and have tasted
of the heavenly gift,
00:28:18.59\00:28:20.83
and have become
partakers of the Holy Spirit
00:28:20.86\00:28:24.50
and have tasted
the good word of God
00:28:24.53\00:28:27.30
and the powers
of the age to come."
00:28:27.34\00:28:28.97
They tasted all that
00:28:29.00\00:28:30.34
they had samples of all of that.
00:28:30.37\00:28:32.14
Verse 6, "If they
fall away to renew them
00:28:32.17\00:28:35.54
again to repentance
00:28:35.58\00:28:37.18
since they crucify again
for themselves the Son of God
00:28:37.21\00:28:41.18
and put Him to an open shame."
00:28:41.22\00:28:42.95
What's happening there is,
when people decide to fall away
00:28:42.98\00:28:46.52
and sadly, John,
we've experienced
00:28:46.55\00:28:48.66
that as pastors,
00:28:48.69\00:28:50.03
there are some people that
know the message inside out.
00:28:50.06\00:28:53.43
And we come up against the wall,
00:28:53.46\00:28:54.86
what could we tell them.
00:28:54.90\00:28:57.20
Some people know the message,
what could we tell them?
00:28:57.23\00:29:00.17
And we say, well,
we're praying for you
00:29:00.20\00:29:02.47
but like the prodigal son,
00:29:02.50\00:29:04.84
when some people walk away
unlike the coin that was lost
00:29:04.87\00:29:09.34
and did not know it was lost,
00:29:09.38\00:29:11.18
the sheep that was
lost and knew it was lost
00:29:11.21\00:29:13.72
but couldn't find its way home
00:29:13.75\00:29:15.25
and they went, and Jesus
went to bring the sheep home,
00:29:15.28\00:29:17.59
they're the prodigal sons,
who leave the father's house.
00:29:17.62\00:29:22.39
The father can't go get them,
00:29:22.42\00:29:24.13
because he made
the choice to leave.
00:29:24.16\00:29:26.09
The father has to wait
till he comes to his senses,
00:29:26.13\00:29:29.26
and the father is
waiting to welcome him back.
00:29:29.30\00:29:31.83
So the Lord
knows there are some,
00:29:31.87\00:29:33.30
there are some sons that
are going to leave the home,
00:29:33.34\00:29:35.74
but by His grace as time goes on
00:29:35.77\00:29:37.61
and the spirit
continues to work,
00:29:37.64\00:29:39.17
they will come to their
senses and they'll go back
00:29:39.21\00:29:41.68
and the father will embrace them
00:29:41.71\00:29:43.35
and welcome them
back into the fold.
00:29:43.38\00:29:45.45
Thank you for your
questions and comments,
00:29:45.48\00:29:47.35
appreciate them very much.
00:29:47.38\00:29:48.72
If you have any more to send,
00:29:48.75\00:29:50.09
send those
questions and comments
00:29:50.12\00:29:51.45
to House Calls,
housecalls@3abn.org.
00:29:51.49\00:29:54.06
And we thank you very much
00:29:54.09\00:29:56.29
for all you do
for this ministry.
00:29:56.32\00:29:59.09
That's housecalls@3abn.org.
00:29:59.13\00:30:02.40
John, a powerful
topic you've chosen today,
00:30:02.43\00:30:04.90
"Discipleship".
00:30:04.93\00:30:06.27
You've done a lot
of work on this one.
00:30:06.30\00:30:07.64
Yeah, I have
00:30:07.67\00:30:09.00
and as the
Personal Ministries Director
00:30:09.04\00:30:12.07
for the
conference that I work for,
00:30:12.11\00:30:13.61
part of my job is discipleship
00:30:13.64\00:30:15.54
and encouraging members
00:30:15.58\00:30:17.88
to get actively
involved as disciples of Christ
00:30:17.91\00:30:20.92
in the work that he's
doing in that local church.
00:30:20.95\00:30:24.35
It helps pastors as well
00:30:24.39\00:30:25.72
because a lot of people think
00:30:25.75\00:30:27.26
pastors are there to kind
of drive the church business
00:30:27.29\00:30:29.66
and to get all the work
done and to make things happen,
00:30:29.69\00:30:32.56
but really the pastor,
00:30:32.59\00:30:34.33
especially according
to Ephesians 4, he is the,
00:30:34.36\00:30:37.50
one of the equipper
trainers of the members,
00:30:37.53\00:30:40.40
the saints in ministry.
00:30:40.44\00:30:41.77
That's right. And his are...
00:30:41.80\00:30:43.87
Basically the
success of the pastor
00:30:43.91\00:30:46.07
is more determined by
the response of the members
00:30:46.11\00:30:49.28
in discipleship than it is
00:30:49.31\00:30:51.75
how good they are as a preacher.
00:30:51.78\00:30:53.82
Very good point.
00:30:53.85\00:30:55.18
And so discipleship itself
00:30:55.22\00:30:56.65
is built into the
DNA of the church.
00:30:56.69\00:30:59.75
The church exists
where disciples can come
00:30:59.79\00:31:04.13
grow in their faith and then,
00:31:04.16\00:31:07.40
then they share
their faith with others
00:31:07.43\00:31:09.13
and it increases and
grows the church in numbers.
00:31:09.16\00:31:12.83
And so, since that is the case
00:31:12.87\00:31:17.07
and in looking at what
Jesus did with His disciples,
00:31:17.11\00:31:20.28
I think it's
important to remember
00:31:20.31\00:31:22.64
that we are also disciples
who have received a commission.
00:31:22.68\00:31:26.61
At some point he will
get to the Great Commission
00:31:26.65\00:31:29.78
in Matthew 28,
00:31:29.82\00:31:32.02
but for now I
just want to start off
00:31:32.05\00:31:34.62
by talking a little
bit about discipleship
00:31:34.66\00:31:37.13
and its implications
in regard to the church
00:31:37.16\00:31:40.63
and the church's success
00:31:40.66\00:31:42.50
in sharing the
gospel with the world.
00:31:42.53\00:31:47.10
The church, every
church has a life cycle,
00:31:47.14\00:31:49.04
and you've seen this
life cycle before, John.
00:31:49.07\00:31:52.01
Every church has a life
cycle whereby, you know,
00:31:52.04\00:31:56.41
the vision is
established for a church plant,
00:31:56.44\00:32:00.08
goals are set,
ministry begins to happen,
00:32:00.12\00:32:03.65
growth happens and
then the danger zone,
00:32:03.69\00:32:07.19
you get to a danger
zone which is this plateau,
00:32:07.22\00:32:10.26
where you start to
kind of ride the wave
00:32:10.29\00:32:11.99
that you've already started,
00:32:12.03\00:32:14.06
and I think that's where
we lose focus on discipleship.
00:32:14.10\00:32:17.97
You know, visioning,
setting goals, doing ministry,
00:32:18.00\00:32:22.37
growing the church,
those are all disciple words.
00:32:22.40\00:32:26.21
But when you get
to maintenance mode,
00:32:26.24\00:32:28.64
this plateau that
shifts in this maintenance mode
00:32:28.68\00:32:30.85
and on the other side
of that is a slippery slope
00:32:30.88\00:32:33.18
into nostalgia and
that where you polarize,
00:32:33.21\00:32:35.55
and then the
death of the church.
00:32:35.58\00:32:37.72
Those are very
anti-discipleship words.
00:32:37.75\00:32:41.29
To stay in this
discipleship mode as a church,
00:32:41.32\00:32:43.69
and a critic
structure that fosters
00:32:43.73\00:32:45.13
and builds discipleship
00:32:45.16\00:32:46.86
is really
responsibility of the church
00:32:46.90\00:32:48.33
and its
leadership, not just the pastor
00:32:48.36\00:32:50.17
but the elders of the
church, deacons, deaconesses
00:32:50.20\00:32:52.67
all those who hold
leadership positions
00:32:52.70\00:32:54.64
within the church.
00:32:54.67\00:32:56.60
I'm going to
make a statement here
00:32:56.64\00:32:57.97
that is kind of the catapult
00:32:58.01\00:33:01.48
for all that we're
going to talk about
00:33:01.51\00:33:02.98
in the next couple of programs.
00:33:03.01\00:33:04.41
Okay. And that is this.
00:33:04.45\00:33:07.48
If discipleship was
done right in the church,
00:33:07.52\00:33:11.99
evangelism would
largely take care of itself.
00:33:12.02\00:33:17.86
If discipleship was
done right in the church,
00:33:17.89\00:33:20.13
if people embrace that,
00:33:20.16\00:33:21.50
and that was our focus on
being disciples of Christ.
00:33:21.53\00:33:25.23
If that was done right in
a church, in our churches,
00:33:25.27\00:33:28.10
evangelism would
largely take care of itself.
00:33:28.14\00:33:31.77
You wouldn't have to talk about.
00:33:31.81\00:33:33.84
Well, we've got to gear
up for a public meetings,
00:33:33.88\00:33:35.74
we got to get out there
and send some flyers out
00:33:35.78\00:33:38.05
so you can
generate some interest.
00:33:38.08\00:33:40.35
You know, what you
would have are disciples
00:33:40.38\00:33:42.32
who are connecting with
people outside the church,
00:33:42.35\00:33:44.45
they build relationships
00:33:44.49\00:33:45.82
they're
intentional outside the church
00:33:45.85\00:33:47.66
and they would have people
00:33:47.69\00:33:49.02
who are interested in the gospel
00:33:49.06\00:33:50.66
and then the public
meeting that you eventually have
00:33:50.69\00:33:53.03
or reaping
meetings we call those
00:33:53.06\00:33:54.86
would have
people filling the pews
00:33:54.90\00:33:56.67
to hear the
gospel that it's already,
00:33:56.70\00:33:58.77
the seed is already
been planted in them.
00:33:58.80\00:34:01.54
And so I'm
serious when I say this,
00:34:01.57\00:34:03.41
we as a church have moved
away from discipleship model,
00:34:03.44\00:34:06.37
the discipleship
model that Christ intended
00:34:06.41\00:34:09.08
into a kind of a
leadership kind of grandstand,
00:34:09.11\00:34:13.38
almost pastoral dependent model.
00:34:13.42\00:34:16.89
Yeah.
00:34:16.92\00:34:18.25
Which is not what you
find in the Book of Acts.
00:34:18.29\00:34:20.16
That model does
not exist in scripture.
00:34:20.19\00:34:22.66
The current model of pastoring
that we have in the church.
00:34:22.69\00:34:25.56
You know, like you
and I, we know sports
00:34:25.59\00:34:27.76
and we play basketball and
baseball, some in football,
00:34:27.80\00:34:31.90
it's almost become
like a football game,
00:34:31.93\00:34:34.10
they come to
cheer on the players.
00:34:34.14\00:34:35.54
Yeah.
00:34:35.57\00:34:36.91
And, but they
don't get any trophies,
00:34:36.94\00:34:38.37
they don't get any bonuses.
00:34:38.41\00:34:39.87
Yeah.
00:34:39.91\00:34:41.24
They're on the stands
week to week, they don't,
00:34:41.28\00:34:42.61
and unfortunately, you know,
we have to say who's to blame?
00:34:42.64\00:34:46.82
Us were to blame. That's right.
00:34:46.85\00:34:48.72
We can't blame the membership,
we have to say, okay, you know,
00:34:48.75\00:34:52.15
when you got visions and
goals in ministry and growth,
00:34:52.19\00:34:55.52
that plateau, you
have to always remember
00:34:55.56\00:34:57.76
in every season
that we talk about this
00:34:57.79\00:34:59.69
and we go back to
the model of our sports,
00:34:59.73\00:35:01.76
there's a season,
00:35:01.80\00:35:03.13
because they cheer at
the end of the championship,
00:35:03.16\00:35:06.13
everybody's won,
00:35:06.17\00:35:08.37
they go parade and
they started all over again
00:35:08.40\00:35:12.27
and you know why?
00:35:12.31\00:35:14.68
Because they know
if they skip a year,
00:35:14.71\00:35:17.81
if they skip a year,
this is a powerful point.
00:35:17.85\00:35:21.05
If the sports teams
decided we're not going to have
00:35:21.08\00:35:24.09
any NBA championships this year,
00:35:24.12\00:35:25.49
we're not going to have
any football championships
00:35:25.52\00:35:27.12
this year, we're not
going to have any NFL,
00:35:27.16\00:35:29.02
I mean hockey championships NHL,
00:35:29.06\00:35:31.39
we're going to skip a
year, you know what happens?
00:35:31.43\00:35:34.43
The people
plateau in their emotions.
00:35:34.46\00:35:37.20
And then they say,
00:35:37.23\00:35:39.07
boy, I remember
the good old days
00:35:39.10\00:35:40.44
when we used to
have championships,
00:35:40.47\00:35:41.80
you don't have many
more games to go to,
00:35:41.84\00:35:45.31
doesn't look forward
to one Football Sunday,
00:35:45.34\00:35:47.54
I mean, Super Bowl Sunday,
00:35:47.58\00:35:48.91
there's no Super
Bowl Sunday this year
00:35:48.94\00:35:50.71
to get into nostalgia,
to get into maintenance.
00:35:50.75\00:35:53.72
And they start
saying, you know what?
00:35:53.75\00:35:55.15
Let's have our
own football game.
00:35:55.18\00:35:56.52
Yeah.
00:35:56.55\00:35:57.89
And they start
polarizing into small groups
00:35:57.92\00:35:59.25
that want to carry on the joy.
00:35:59.29\00:36:00.62
Every, or the whole
focus becomes internal.
00:36:00.66\00:36:03.09
Yeah.
00:36:03.12\00:36:04.46
What is someone
else doing? Yeah.
00:36:04.49\00:36:06.06
You know, and in fact a
lot of the things you see
00:36:06.09\00:36:07.90
with a lot of these
preachers that come out
00:36:07.93\00:36:09.26
and they focus on
what people are dressed,
00:36:09.30\00:36:11.07
how they're dressing,
and what they're wearing
00:36:11.10\00:36:13.17
and how they're not
living up to the standards
00:36:13.20\00:36:15.20
and all that whole
internal focus is happening
00:36:15.24\00:36:18.24
because they've
lost the external focus.
00:36:18.27\00:36:20.28
Yeah, it becomes
institutionalize.
00:36:20.31\00:36:22.48
Absolutely.
00:36:22.51\00:36:25.51
I'm going to tell a story
00:36:25.55\00:36:26.88
and this story has
been impactful for me
00:36:26.92\00:36:29.38
which really has launched me,
00:36:29.42\00:36:31.12
not only just
because of what I do
00:36:31.15\00:36:32.82
for at the conference level,
00:36:32.85\00:36:34.32
but it's helped me
00:36:34.36\00:36:36.69
really become
excited about this topic.
00:36:36.73\00:36:39.33
Good.
00:36:39.36\00:36:40.70
There's a boy
named Bobby and he was...
00:36:40.73\00:36:46.23
Every year, every summer
he got to go to grandpa's,
00:36:46.27\00:36:48.57
grandma and grandpa's farm.
00:36:48.60\00:36:50.17
Love to go to
grandma and grandpa's farm.
00:36:50.21\00:36:51.64
See the animals, hang
out with grandma, grandpa,
00:36:51.67\00:36:53.91
it was that exciting thing,
00:36:53.94\00:36:55.31
but it only lasted
for a couple of few days
00:36:55.34\00:36:58.38
and he was back at home
00:36:58.41\00:37:00.42
and he spent the
rest of the summer at home
00:37:00.45\00:37:02.08
getting ready for
school the next year.
00:37:02.12\00:37:04.55
Well, his parents
would always tell him,
00:37:04.59\00:37:06.09
"Well, you know,
Bobby, you're too little
00:37:06.12\00:37:09.12
to go stay with grandma
and grandpa on their farm.
00:37:09.16\00:37:10.96
They've got a lot of
work to do during the summer
00:37:10.99\00:37:13.29
and it's very
difficult, you're too small,
00:37:13.33\00:37:17.00
you will get in the way
00:37:17.03\00:37:18.37
and they won't be able to do
the work that's needed there.
00:37:18.40\00:37:20.00
You need to be able
to be a help to grandpa
00:37:20.04\00:37:22.07
in working the farm.
00:37:22.10\00:37:24.37
But one year he didn't hear
that from his parents, he said,
00:37:24.41\00:37:28.31
he heard, Bobby,
you're old enough,
00:37:28.34\00:37:30.18
you gonna stay
with grandma and grandpa
00:37:30.21\00:37:31.55
for a couple of months,
00:37:31.58\00:37:32.91
you can go and
help out in the farm,
00:37:32.95\00:37:34.28
and he was so excited.
00:37:34.32\00:37:35.88
Mom and dad took him,
00:37:35.92\00:37:37.25
drove him to
grandma and grandpa's farm,
00:37:37.29\00:37:39.35
dropped him off there.
00:37:39.39\00:37:40.99
They said,
"Okay, we'll come back
00:37:41.02\00:37:42.36
and pick him up
in a couple of weeks,
00:37:42.39\00:37:43.73
hopefully he'd
be a big help to you
00:37:43.76\00:37:45.09
and he can learn a lot about
what farming is really about
00:37:45.13\00:37:46.56
and grandpa said,
"Oh, it will be thrilled
00:37:46.59\00:37:48.70
to have him here."
00:37:48.73\00:37:50.07
So they brought him in,
he got settled in his room
00:37:50.10\00:37:52.17
and it came time for
the evening to sleep,
00:37:52.20\00:37:54.27
and grandpa said, "Hey, Bobby,
00:37:54.30\00:37:56.27
you know, we have
a lot to do tomorrow,
00:37:56.30\00:37:59.47
so you need to get your rest.
00:37:59.51\00:38:00.84
Don't stay up,
don't get on your iPad
00:38:00.88\00:38:03.01
and on your
phone, all that stuff,
00:38:03.04\00:38:05.28
get some sleep
00:38:05.31\00:38:06.65
and he listened to grandpa
and he got to sleep that night.
00:38:06.68\00:38:09.45
Well, you know what happens
00:38:09.48\00:38:10.82
early in the
morning out in a farm?
00:38:10.85\00:38:12.19
The roosters crow and
life begins at sunrise.
00:38:12.22\00:38:15.99
And he was up early,
00:38:16.02\00:38:17.53
grandpa was
there at the doorway,
00:38:17.56\00:38:18.89
Bobby, let's get up,
it's time to get busy.
00:38:18.93\00:38:21.83
And so he showed him
out, he showed him the barn,
00:38:21.86\00:38:24.87
he showed him
how to milk the cows.
00:38:24.90\00:38:27.24
He was feeding the chickens,
giving hay to the animals.
00:38:27.27\00:38:33.68
And then he had him do
some tasks around the garden,
00:38:33.71\00:38:35.61
picking some of the weeds
up, they were really busy.
00:38:35.64\00:38:38.68
Boy, Bobby was hungry
00:38:38.71\00:38:40.25
and he could smell
this wonderful smell
00:38:40.28\00:38:43.28
coming from the kitchen,
00:38:43.32\00:38:44.89
grandma was
cooking in the kitchen
00:38:44.92\00:38:47.19
and finally he heard that bell,
00:38:47.22\00:38:48.82
"Come on, guys,
come in and eat."
00:38:48.86\00:38:50.76
And they went in
and they're eating.
00:38:50.79\00:38:52.13
Oh, he just ate up as, you know,
00:38:52.16\00:38:54.13
he ate like he'd
never eaten before.
00:38:54.16\00:38:56.83
And right about 40, 45
minutes after they began to eat
00:38:56.87\00:39:00.94
and he was full on his stomach,
grandpa stood up and he said,
00:39:00.97\00:39:03.41
"Okay, Bobby, it's
time to get to work."
00:39:03.44\00:39:07.71
And Bobby said, "grandpa,
we've already been working,
00:39:07.74\00:39:11.45
haven't we been
working all morning long."
00:39:11.48\00:39:14.12
And grandpa said,
"Bobby, that's not work,
00:39:14.15\00:39:18.42
them is chores, the
work," here's the point,
00:39:18.45\00:39:22.36
"the work is in
the harvest field."
00:39:22.39\00:39:25.83
Not in the house?
00:39:25.86\00:39:27.20
Not around the
house and in the barn.
00:39:27.23\00:39:31.77
As a disciple of Christ
and as members of God's church,
00:39:31.80\00:39:36.91
what we do in the business
of the church as elders,
00:39:36.94\00:39:39.84
as deacons, as deaconesses,
as Sabbath school leaders,
00:39:39.87\00:39:42.14
all those
things, them is chores.
00:39:42.18\00:39:44.91
Them is chores, I like that.
00:39:44.95\00:39:46.82
The work is out in the field.
00:39:46.85\00:39:48.72
The work begins when
you leave the building
00:39:48.75\00:39:51.99
and you are empowered by
the message you've heard,
00:39:52.02\00:39:54.26
by the people you meet
00:39:54.29\00:39:55.62
to go out and share the
gospel with other people.
00:39:55.66\00:39:58.59
If all we're doing is
hanging out with ourselves.
00:39:58.63\00:40:00.46
As all we're doing
is doing the business
00:40:00.50\00:40:01.93
in the work of the church,
00:40:01.96\00:40:03.30
we're just
involved in the chores
00:40:03.33\00:40:04.67
of maintaining the church,
00:40:04.70\00:40:06.03
that is maintenance
mode to the fullest.
00:40:06.07\00:40:08.24
Right.
00:40:08.27\00:40:09.60
We've got to move out
and beyond in our thinking
00:40:09.64\00:40:12.61
to get into the harvest field
00:40:12.64\00:40:14.74
and to begin to reach the people
00:40:14.78\00:40:17.98
that are starved for
the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:40:18.01\00:40:21.78
And that's left to the disciples
00:40:21.82\00:40:23.92
who are in fact laborers.
00:40:23.95\00:40:26.05
And we know, I think
00:40:26.09\00:40:27.42
we're living in
a time right now,
00:40:27.46\00:40:28.79
John, where Christ
said pray for laborers,
00:40:28.82\00:40:31.83
there aren't enough
laborers in the field.
00:40:31.86\00:40:34.50
Pray for laborers that Christ
that God will send laborers
00:40:34.53\00:40:37.20
into His harvest field
and get involved in His work.
00:40:37.23\00:40:40.60
We as His disciples,
00:40:40.64\00:40:41.97
if all we're doing is
the work of the church
00:40:42.00\00:40:44.31
and we're not
laboring in the harvest field
00:40:44.34\00:40:45.71
we're not laborers,
00:40:45.74\00:40:47.31
we're just taking up space
and doing chores in the church.
00:40:47.34\00:40:50.35
And so this whole, this
whole commission of discipleship
00:40:50.38\00:40:53.75
and the Lord says,
00:40:53.78\00:40:55.62
"Go therefore
and make disciples."
00:40:55.65\00:40:59.19
Do we misinterpret that,
go therefore and make members?
00:40:59.22\00:41:03.43
You know, the word make
actually in that passage
00:41:03.46\00:41:06.03
the word make as you
know is not in the Greek.
00:41:06.06\00:41:10.10
Right. The word
make's not there.
00:41:10.13\00:41:11.83
What it's saying is,
you who are My disciples,
00:41:11.87\00:41:14.74
go out and
disciple other people.
00:41:14.77\00:41:16.10
Right.
00:41:16.14\00:41:17.47
Be disciplers and
discipling is not involved,
00:41:17.51\00:41:21.14
it does not involve just
the chores of the church,
00:41:21.18\00:41:23.14
although some of
that, the nurturing
00:41:23.18\00:41:24.91
and the mentoring that happens
00:41:24.95\00:41:26.28
within the church
context is important
00:41:26.31\00:41:27.65
and we'll talk about that
as we get further into this.
00:41:27.68\00:41:30.85
But our first task
really is to connect with people
00:41:30.89\00:41:33.72
and to share our faith.
00:41:33.76\00:41:35.42
And you can't do that.
00:41:35.46\00:41:36.79
I've asked
hands, a show of hands,
00:41:36.83\00:41:38.56
how many people in this church,
00:41:38.59\00:41:39.93
how many have mostly
non-Adventist friends,
00:41:39.96\00:41:44.00
or non-Christian friends?
00:41:44.03\00:41:46.53
Most of the time
very few hands go up.
00:41:46.57\00:41:48.90
We need to be more intentional
00:41:48.94\00:41:50.27
about making
friends, building friendships
00:41:50.31\00:41:52.34
with people that
don't know Jesus.
00:41:52.37\00:41:54.68
Only then, only then
can we disciple someone,
00:41:54.71\00:41:59.55
and discipleship is not just by
what we say by, by how we live.
00:41:59.58\00:42:03.95
That's right.
00:42:03.99\00:42:05.32
And it's not by what we
know, as to how much we practice
00:42:05.35\00:42:08.36
what we know
either, all these things.
00:42:08.39\00:42:10.56
Discipleship is
bigger than we think it is.
00:42:10.59\00:42:13.93
Disciple isn't just a
decision, I will follow Jesus.
00:42:13.96\00:42:17.40
Discipleship is something
that we decide, we determine,
00:42:17.43\00:42:20.70
we commit to doing
every single day of our lives.
00:42:20.74\00:42:23.57
So when Jesus said,
follow me and I'll make you,
00:42:23.61\00:42:26.98
we have to, not
just say fishers of men,
00:42:27.01\00:42:29.11
follow me and I will make you,
00:42:29.14\00:42:30.65
when I make you as
He did to the disciples,
00:42:30.68\00:42:33.45
then He sent them out
00:42:33.48\00:42:35.15
know this, He
called them disciples
00:42:35.18\00:42:37.09
when they were with Him,
00:42:37.12\00:42:38.75
but He called them apostles
00:42:38.79\00:42:40.12
when the New
Testament church began.
00:42:40.16\00:42:41.62
Apostles are simply
disciples who are sent.
00:42:41.66\00:42:43.39
Right, sent, go out.
00:42:43.43\00:42:45.26
I send you forth
as lambs among wolves.
00:42:45.29\00:42:47.66
Go into the highways and
hedges compel all men to come
00:42:47.70\00:42:51.37
and Peter and the apostles,
and Paul and the apostles
00:42:51.40\00:42:54.80
they all recognize
well, that my call is,
00:42:54.84\00:42:57.97
as Paul, he traveled to
so many different cities
00:42:58.01\00:43:03.11
in Asia Minor and also in Asia.
00:43:03.14\00:43:05.75
The Corinthian church is one,
00:43:05.78\00:43:07.35
he established two
Corinthian churches.
00:43:07.38\00:43:09.72
In the city of,
00:43:09.75\00:43:11.09
in Greece, in
the city of Corinth,
00:43:11.12\00:43:14.32
he established two
bodies of believers
00:43:14.36\00:43:16.59
but he was out planting
00:43:16.62\00:43:17.96
and speaking as an
itinerant person everywhere,
00:43:17.99\00:43:21.46
he equipped the church
00:43:21.50\00:43:23.53
to carry on the work
of bringing others in.
00:43:23.57\00:43:25.87
That's right.
00:43:25.90\00:43:27.24
And the Corinthian
church was an amazing one.
00:43:27.27\00:43:28.60
Lot of conflicts for sure,
00:43:28.64\00:43:30.61
but discipleship was
happening on a day by day basis,
00:43:30.64\00:43:34.71
not on a once a week basis,
00:43:34.74\00:43:36.24
discipleship is
happening every day.
00:43:36.28\00:43:38.18
In the Book of
Acts the Bible says,
00:43:38.21\00:43:39.55
"They broke bread from
house to house every day."
00:43:39.58\00:43:42.45
They broke, that was a
day by day responsibility,
00:43:42.48\00:43:45.25
they had fellowship,
00:43:45.29\00:43:46.62
and fellowship by
the way should be,
00:43:46.65\00:43:48.52
should replace
the word friendship.
00:43:48.56\00:43:50.59
Because the Bible
doesn't talk about friendship,
00:43:50.63\00:43:52.56
it only talks about if
you're friend of the world,
00:43:52.59\00:43:54.73
then you're enemy of God,
but it talks about fellowship.
00:43:54.76\00:43:58.17
If we walk in the
light as He is in the light,
00:43:58.20\00:44:02.37
we have
fellowship with one another,
00:44:02.40\00:44:05.07
you got to walk in the light.
00:44:05.11\00:44:06.44
But this fellowship
now, when you have fellowship
00:44:06.47\00:44:09.04
with people that are in the dark
00:44:09.08\00:44:10.75
you're fellowshipping,
look at this carefully.
00:44:10.78\00:44:12.81
The fellowship of
those who are in the dark
00:44:12.85\00:44:14.88
is not to create an allegiance
00:44:14.92\00:44:17.89
but to allow your
light to reflect...
00:44:17.92\00:44:19.99
That's right.
00:44:20.02\00:44:21.36
So that people can be
attracted to the light.
00:44:21.39\00:44:23.79
Someone once said, you cannot,
you can lead a horse to water
00:44:23.83\00:44:27.06
but you can't make him drink.
00:44:27.10\00:44:28.66
I don't believe that,
you can make him drink.
00:44:28.70\00:44:33.64
Take a block of salt and
let him start licking it,
00:44:33.67\00:44:37.27
he'll drink, thus Jesus said,
00:44:37.31\00:44:39.67
"You are the salt of the earth."
00:44:39.71\00:44:42.48
That's right.
00:44:42.51\00:44:43.85
So discipleship,
John, as you study this,
00:44:43.88\00:44:45.71
go back to that again,
the cycle of the church.
00:44:45.75\00:44:47.68
I think I heard you say vision,
often begin with a vision.
00:44:47.72\00:44:50.12
Talk about that? Yeah.
00:44:50.15\00:44:51.49
The vision is established
for what that church will do
00:44:51.52\00:44:54.99
which is really Christ's vision
00:44:55.02\00:44:56.36
because He's the
head of the church.
00:44:56.39\00:44:57.73
Right.
00:44:57.76\00:44:59.09
Goals are then set,
00:44:59.13\00:45:00.46
ministry begins to
happen amongst the leadership
00:45:00.50\00:45:01.86
and in equipping
and training of ministry
00:45:01.90\00:45:04.27
in the members,
00:45:04.30\00:45:06.23
growth then occurs
as a result of that.
00:45:06.27\00:45:09.30
The danger it becomes
when you hit a plateau.
00:45:09.34\00:45:12.34
The goal is to...
00:45:12.37\00:45:13.71
The objective is
to stay on the side
00:45:13.74\00:45:15.58
of continuing
to cast the vision,
00:45:15.61\00:45:16.95
continuing to do
ministry, continue to grow,
00:45:16.98\00:45:19.11
but when maintenance happens,
00:45:19.15\00:45:20.48
you can slip off
that other side like,
00:45:20.52\00:45:22.08
okay, things are
getting to be done here
00:45:22.12\00:45:24.19
into maintenance,
00:45:24.22\00:45:25.55
nostalgia,
polarization and then death.
00:45:25.59\00:45:28.59
So the four, so
the four benefits then
00:45:28.62\00:45:30.76
is vision,
goals, ministry, growth
00:45:30.79\00:45:33.73
and the people that grow,
go back, give them the vision.
00:45:33.76\00:45:36.26
Yes. It's to cast the vision.
00:45:36.30\00:45:37.63
Cast it to the new
people, here's the vision, goal,
00:45:37.67\00:45:41.00
same thing, you've
heard the word franchise?
00:45:41.04\00:45:44.07
Sure.
00:45:44.11\00:45:45.44
The reason why franchises
like McDonald's is everywhere
00:45:45.47\00:45:48.01
is because McDonald's
has a vision which has goals,
00:45:48.04\00:45:51.95
which has a plan for growth,
they don't call it ministry,
00:45:51.98\00:45:54.98
they call it staffing.
00:45:55.02\00:45:57.19
Or more so, how do
we please our customers.
00:45:57.22\00:46:01.42
So they have vision goals,
00:46:01.46\00:46:03.43
what kind of attitude do we have
00:46:03.46\00:46:04.79
towards our customers.
00:46:04.83\00:46:06.16
Yeah, their
ministry is their business.
00:46:06.19\00:46:07.53
Their business. How
they get their business.
00:46:07.56\00:46:08.90
And then it leads to
growth and when they grow
00:46:08.93\00:46:10.57
they start a franchise,
they start a franchise
00:46:10.60\00:46:13.00
start a
franchise, it keeps going.
00:46:13.03\00:46:14.57
So what does
McDonald's been doing
00:46:14.60\00:46:15.94
for the last 35, 40 years?
00:46:15.97\00:46:18.21
Selling hamburgers,
00:46:18.24\00:46:19.57
selling burgers,
selling French fries.
00:46:19.61\00:46:21.51
And it's still happening
00:46:21.54\00:46:22.88
because they have
not lost the vision.
00:46:22.91\00:46:24.41
The danger with the church is,
00:46:24.45\00:46:25.78
we get a vision,
we get those visions
00:46:25.81\00:46:27.65
almost on
sporadic evangelistic basis
00:46:27.68\00:46:31.09
rather than a continuous basis
which in fact is the purpose
00:46:31.12\00:46:34.72
that God always
intended His church to have.
00:46:34.76\00:46:36.62
There's graph that,
that I've seen this,
00:46:36.66\00:46:38.93
it's really effective
how most churches organize
00:46:38.96\00:46:42.03
and how we should be organized
00:46:42.06\00:46:43.40
and it's basically,
00:46:43.43\00:46:45.63
a wheel with spokes
going out to the tire,
00:46:45.67\00:46:49.70
and that tire
00:46:49.74\00:46:51.07
includes the various
ministries of the church
00:46:51.11\00:46:53.11
so you'd have the...
00:46:53.14\00:46:58.78
Sabbath school,
00:46:58.81\00:47:00.15
or you'd have outreach ministry,
00:47:00.18\00:47:03.05
you'd have socials,
00:47:03.08\00:47:04.42
you have all
these different things
00:47:04.45\00:47:05.79
the church does,
00:47:05.82\00:47:07.36
and both of the wheels
00:47:07.39\00:47:08.72
are very similar in that respect
00:47:08.76\00:47:10.96
but the hub is the key.
00:47:10.99\00:47:12.76
On one the hub is
the worship service.
00:47:12.79\00:47:15.06
That's right.
00:47:15.10\00:47:16.43
Which is the way
it's usually a structure
00:47:16.46\00:47:17.80
where people, the
whole focus for the week
00:47:17.83\00:47:19.43
is getting that worship
service and doing worship.
00:47:19.47\00:47:21.77
That's right.
00:47:21.80\00:47:23.14
That should not be the hub
00:47:23.17\00:47:24.94
of a thriving disciple oriented,
00:47:24.97\00:47:27.08
or disciple focused church.
00:47:27.11\00:47:28.74
The hub is evangelism. Right.
00:47:28.78\00:47:31.91
Worship is just
one of the things,
00:47:31.95\00:47:33.65
the spokes that
go out to the tire.
00:47:33.68\00:47:36.12
Worship is one of the
things we do as a church,
00:47:36.15\00:47:38.69
but evangelism is
the focus of the church,
00:47:38.72\00:47:41.12
getting the message out there
through these various avenues
00:47:41.16\00:47:43.73
which include worship.
00:47:43.76\00:47:45.09
Worship service is not the hub.
00:47:45.13\00:47:47.60
Yeah, we've come to believe
and it's not by intention,
00:47:47.63\00:47:50.60
it's just it's happened that way
00:47:50.63\00:47:52.33
that the worship
service is the climax
00:47:52.37\00:47:54.27
of what we do as a church
00:47:54.30\00:47:55.80
and it's not.
00:47:55.84\00:47:57.17
And America has primarily,
00:47:57.21\00:47:58.54
you know, the
thing about America,
00:47:58.57\00:47:59.91
we are so entertainment
00:47:59.94\00:48:01.28
we geared in America,
00:48:01.31\00:48:02.64
that the entertainment aspects,
00:48:02.68\00:48:04.08
you know, we're
getting ready for the game.
00:48:04.11\00:48:06.11
Hey, let's, you
know, the tailgate parties
00:48:06.15\00:48:08.35
and all this
and get the popcorn,
00:48:08.38\00:48:10.35
the barbecue when,
we are so event oriented
00:48:10.39\00:48:14.99
that we don't look at
things as a continuum.
00:48:15.02\00:48:17.69
Yeah.
00:48:17.73\00:48:19.06
The church is never
intended to be an event
00:48:19.09\00:48:21.40
but a continuum,
00:48:21.43\00:48:23.13
you know, continue to
do this until I return.
00:48:23.16\00:48:25.77
Remembering all the time.
00:48:25.80\00:48:27.14
All the time, so vision,
goals, ministry and growth,
00:48:27.17\00:48:29.80
vision, goals,
ministry and growth.
00:48:29.84\00:48:31.17
Yeah, in regard to ministry
00:48:31.21\00:48:32.54
there's two kinds of
ministry that happens.
00:48:32.57\00:48:34.14
There's a
ministry for the church,
00:48:34.18\00:48:35.64
for the
sustenance of the church,
00:48:35.68\00:48:37.38
which we've already
talked about as being chores.
00:48:37.41\00:48:39.75
All right.
00:48:39.78\00:48:41.28
But then the other
ministry that happens
00:48:41.32\00:48:43.32
is personal ministry
00:48:43.35\00:48:44.85
and that's the part
that of course that's,
00:48:44.89\00:48:46.45
that's what I
oversee try and engage people
00:48:46.49\00:48:49.16
and get people
involve in personal ministry.
00:48:49.19\00:48:51.19
And that is
according to your gifts.
00:48:51.23\00:48:53.53
It may be to help sustain
the church part of your chores
00:48:53.56\00:48:57.33
but most of those gifts are used
00:48:57.37\00:48:59.07
in your connecting with others.
00:48:59.10\00:49:01.00
Reaching other people
and sharing that gift,
00:49:01.04\00:49:03.61
be the encourager, being
the one that is a leader,
00:49:03.64\00:49:09.98
whatever thing
that you decide to do,
00:49:10.01\00:49:12.45
you work to help
sustain the work of the church
00:49:12.48\00:49:14.75
as a church, as a
structure, as an organization,
00:49:14.78\00:49:17.32
but you also go beyond
that into a personal level
00:49:17.35\00:49:19.85
so there's two kinds of ministry
00:49:19.89\00:49:21.22
that we're always doing,
00:49:21.26\00:49:22.59
church ministry
and personal ministry,
00:49:22.62\00:49:25.06
and both are
absolutely necessary
00:49:25.09\00:49:27.26
to sustain
00:49:27.30\00:49:29.23
the evangelistic
work of the church.
00:49:29.26\00:49:32.83
Now here's the
statistic that's mind blowing,
00:49:32.87\00:49:35.34
and I recognize
what I'm talking about
00:49:35.37\00:49:37.34
is in North America.
00:49:37.37\00:49:38.71
Okay.
00:49:38.74\00:49:40.08
So in different countries
00:49:40.11\00:49:42.34
you'll have different
kinds of statistics that come up
00:49:42.38\00:49:47.45
but listen to this
statistic, in North America
00:49:47.48\00:49:51.75
and this is from the
NAD Ministerial Department.
00:49:51.79\00:49:54.82
Fifty percent of
our pastoral workforce
00:49:54.86\00:49:56.93
will be eligible for
retirement in the next decade.
00:49:56.96\00:50:01.33
Fifty percent.
00:50:01.36\00:50:03.60
And we do not have
00:50:03.63\00:50:05.63
nearly the numbers
coming through the seminary
00:50:05.67\00:50:07.70
and coming
through theology degrees
00:50:07.74\00:50:09.97
and other things
in undergraduate work
00:50:10.01\00:50:12.14
to replace them.
00:50:12.17\00:50:14.88
Now the question I've
asked and I ask congregations
00:50:14.91\00:50:17.38
when I go and
give this seminar is,
00:50:17.41\00:50:20.05
is this a good
thing or a bad thing.
00:50:20.08\00:50:23.32
Kind of a trick question.
00:50:23.35\00:50:24.69
Well, I like, I
see where you're headed
00:50:24.72\00:50:27.29
because you
mention North America,
00:50:27.32\00:50:28.66
that was the
framework of the context.
00:50:28.69\00:50:30.59
So is this shortage
of pastors that's coming
00:50:30.63\00:50:33.36
is this wave that's coming,
is this good or is it bad?
00:50:33.40\00:50:37.40
Is it a problem or is it
not so much of a problem?
00:50:37.43\00:50:39.67
Now in America,
00:50:39.70\00:50:41.14
that's the context, and
I see where you're headed
00:50:41.17\00:50:42.74
because in America we have
this pastor centered ministry.
00:50:42.77\00:50:45.04
Absolutely.
00:50:45.07\00:50:46.41
But you go to South America,
00:50:46.44\00:50:47.78
you go to many of
the Caribbean countries,
00:50:47.81\00:50:49.14
you go to
India, you go to Africa
00:50:49.18\00:50:50.51
where the pastor
shows up like Paul did,
00:50:50.55\00:50:52.71
he was the itinerant.
00:50:52.75\00:50:54.25
He came around.
00:50:54.28\00:50:55.62
Paul was a district pastor
and he had a huge district.
00:50:55.65\00:50:59.82
Even the elders that
he equipped and trained
00:50:59.85\00:51:01.62
began to be itinerant.
00:51:01.66\00:51:02.99
That's right.
00:51:03.02\00:51:04.36
Which is they were, they became
evangelistic in their efforts
00:51:04.39\00:51:06.39
to pastor
several house churches,
00:51:06.43\00:51:08.73
not just one.
00:51:08.76\00:51:10.10
And that was the phrase
that Paul used and he says,
00:51:10.13\00:51:12.53
"I planted, Apollos watered,
but God gave the increase."
00:51:12.57\00:51:17.61
Yeah.
00:51:17.64\00:51:18.97
Because when Paul
after 18 months in Greece,
00:51:19.01\00:51:22.44
it was after his second journey
00:51:22.48\00:51:23.81
being there for
18 months in Greece
00:51:23.85\00:51:25.38
that he planted
the Corinthian church,
00:51:25.41\00:51:27.65
after he stood, sorry,
00:51:27.68\00:51:29.18
after he planted
the Corinthian church
00:51:29.22\00:51:31.05
he stayed for 18
months to teach them.
00:51:31.09\00:51:33.62
And then after 18 months he left
00:51:33.66\00:51:35.39
and he put Apollos in charge
of the ministry at Corinth.
00:51:35.42\00:51:38.13
That's why you have...
00:51:38.16\00:51:39.49
I planted, Apollos watered,
but God gave the increase.
00:51:39.53\00:51:43.37
That's right, we
all work together.
00:51:43.40\00:51:44.73
And Apollos
came from Mesopotamia
00:51:44.77\00:51:46.27
to be a part of that ministry.
00:51:46.30\00:51:47.90
He became a part of
the Corinthian ministry
00:51:47.94\00:51:50.27
but Paul is already gone.
00:51:50.31\00:51:51.64
Yeah.
00:51:51.67\00:51:53.01
He was now going to
other districts to do
00:51:53.04\00:51:54.38
all the work
that God had given him
00:51:54.41\00:51:55.74
in another places.
00:51:55.78\00:51:57.11
Paul discipled Apollos
00:51:57.15\00:51:58.48
and left him then
to disciple others.
00:51:58.51\00:52:00.58
That's right.
00:52:00.62\00:52:01.95
Discipleship is about
passing on that knowledge
00:52:01.98\00:52:05.99
and that
experience to other people
00:52:06.02\00:52:07.99
who can then do the same
thing that you've been doing,
00:52:08.02\00:52:10.26
spread the gospel
and grow the church.
00:52:10.29\00:52:13.03
You know, you see in
the 440 in the Olympics
00:52:13.06\00:52:16.13
is the 440 two times
around or one time around
00:52:16.16\00:52:18.80
in a regular track with the 220.
00:52:18.83\00:52:21.80
The relay... No, I
don't even remember.
00:52:21.84\00:52:23.81
I think, I think it's one but...
00:52:23.84\00:52:25.74
Okay, well let's
use that 440 or the 880
00:52:25.77\00:52:28.31
let's just use this as
my own example of the relay.
00:52:28.34\00:52:31.05
This is my example, it may
be completely Olympic incorrect,
00:52:31.08\00:52:34.88
but you have four guys
that begin a relay race
00:52:34.92\00:52:38.02
and they can do two
laps around the track.
00:52:38.05\00:52:41.42
And what happens is
00:52:41.46\00:52:42.79
the first guy that began
00:52:42.82\00:52:44.16
is going to be the guy that end,
00:52:44.19\00:52:45.53
so you start with a baton,
00:52:45.56\00:52:46.90
but you pass the
baton to the next guy
00:52:46.93\00:52:48.26
he runs, he pass
it to the next guy
00:52:48.30\00:52:50.60
he runs, he pass
it to the next guy,
00:52:50.63\00:52:53.30
so one lap
includes all four guys
00:52:53.34\00:52:55.17
at different intervals.
00:52:55.20\00:52:56.71
And the first guy that ran again
00:52:56.74\00:52:58.07
is waiting for the second lap,
00:52:58.11\00:52:59.44
he starts all over
again, that's how the...
00:52:59.47\00:53:01.28
that's how the
cycle of evangelism is,
00:53:01.31\00:53:03.78
the vision, the goals,
the ministry, the growth,
00:53:03.81\00:53:07.75
they are running so to
speak, they're running circles
00:53:07.78\00:53:12.22
but the circle is the cycle
of the growth of the church.
00:53:12.25\00:53:16.42
And the coach is the...
And the coach is the one
00:53:16.46\00:53:19.36
who equipped them to do that.
00:53:19.39\00:53:20.73
In a later program
we're going to cover
00:53:20.76\00:53:22.40
what's called, I put together
as a disciple making matrix.
00:53:22.43\00:53:24.73
Okay.
00:53:24.77\00:53:26.10
So we don't need to
answer just the question
00:53:26.13\00:53:27.64
as what is a disciple, we
need to answer the question
00:53:27.67\00:53:29.44
is how do we become a
disciple making church.
00:53:29.47\00:53:33.01
Because that's the key,
how do we build a structure,
00:53:33.04\00:53:35.34
an organization that
is much more organic,
00:53:35.38\00:53:39.05
that is movable,
that will do these things,
00:53:39.08\00:53:41.28
that won't build in
almost a tendency to stagnation,
00:53:41.32\00:53:45.29
we've got to get away from that.
00:53:45.32\00:53:46.99
So I got a matrix
that we'll cover here
00:53:47.02\00:53:49.06
in the future one.
00:53:49.09\00:53:50.86
But let me share this,
there is a negative correlation
00:53:50.89\00:53:55.23
between pastor
dependence and discipleship.
00:53:55.26\00:53:59.03
Negative correlation so
you know what that means?
00:53:59.07\00:54:00.77
That means the more
pastor dependent you are,
00:54:00.80\00:54:04.17
the less disciple focused,
or disciple oriented you are.
00:54:04.21\00:54:07.14
Right.
00:54:07.18\00:54:08.51
The more you're looking at
the pastor to do this or that,
00:54:08.54\00:54:11.21
the less you're looking
to Christ to work in you
00:54:11.25\00:54:14.88
His will and His good pleasure.
00:54:14.92\00:54:17.82
So what I say often is
you've got these churches
00:54:17.85\00:54:20.56
that are a
little more polarized,
00:54:20.59\00:54:21.92
they're on the right
side of that life cycle,
00:54:21.96\00:54:23.49
they're going down,
00:54:23.53\00:54:24.86
they're the ones that will have
00:54:24.89\00:54:26.23
the greatest
number of complaints
00:54:26.26\00:54:28.06
against the pastor.
00:54:28.10\00:54:29.56
Right because they...
Because they're focused
00:54:29.60\00:54:31.53
on the pastor
making the church succeed.
00:54:31.57\00:54:34.67
I also do church councils. Okay.
00:54:34.70\00:54:36.74
And we're part of a
church council process
00:54:36.77\00:54:38.27
and what I found even
in the placement of pastors
00:54:38.31\00:54:41.21
where you go in, the
first thing people want is,
00:54:41.24\00:54:44.65
are they good preachers.
00:54:44.68\00:54:46.31
Right, I was gonna
say quite preacher.
00:54:46.35\00:54:47.68
I want to make sure
they are good preacher,
00:54:47.72\00:54:49.05
if they're good
preacher, we want those,
00:54:49.08\00:54:50.42
if they're not, we don't.
00:54:50.45\00:54:51.79
There's no,
there's really discussion
00:54:51.82\00:54:53.25
on whether or not
it's an equipping pastor.
00:54:53.29\00:54:54.89
Right.
00:54:54.92\00:54:56.26
Will that pastor get me
involved in sharing the gospel,
00:54:56.29\00:54:58.79
to sharing my faith with others?
00:54:58.83\00:55:01.23
Maybe sometimes it's
a little self-defeating
00:55:01.26\00:55:03.60
where they, they're
little uncomfortable
00:55:03.63\00:55:06.20
with the thought
of being pushed out
00:55:06.23\00:55:07.57
and driven out into that.
00:55:07.60\00:55:09.87
We'll talk about the
process of sending out disciples
00:55:09.90\00:55:12.97
here in a
future program as well.
00:55:13.01\00:55:14.84
But aren't the
health and sustainability
00:55:14.88\00:55:18.05
of the church going forward
00:55:18.08\00:55:19.41
is absolutely
dependent upon moving away
00:55:19.45\00:55:21.32
from pastor dependence
00:55:21.35\00:55:23.12
and moving back to our
dependence upon Christ.
00:55:23.15\00:55:25.69
And how He wants us to
walk with Him as a disciple,
00:55:25.72\00:55:28.66
making disciples by
sharing our faith with others
00:55:28.69\00:55:31.19
and discipling them in the way.
00:55:31.23\00:55:33.70
And Jesus acknowledged
that, in Matthew 9:37,
00:55:33.73\00:55:36.16
He said to His
disciples and this is powerful,
00:55:36.20\00:55:39.63
when we talk about the
cycle, we have vision, goals,
00:55:39.67\00:55:42.97
Ministry, growth.
00:55:43.00\00:55:44.34
Vision, goals, ministry, growth.
00:55:44.37\00:55:46.27
The Lord wasn't
seeing the growth,
00:55:46.31\00:55:48.44
and He said to His disciples,
He said to His disciples,
00:55:48.48\00:55:51.45
"The harvest truly is plentiful
but the laborers are few."
00:55:51.48\00:55:55.62
If the Lord can turn
the world upside down
00:55:55.65\00:55:57.39
with 12, He began with 12,
00:55:57.42\00:55:59.25
what could He do with
most of our congregations
00:55:59.29\00:56:01.72
if they were actively
involved in discipling others?
00:56:01.76\00:56:06.59
So the workers, I mean,
what we are called to do
00:56:06.63\00:56:09.96
is to get back to
the model of discipleship
00:56:10.00\00:56:12.57
rather than just the
model of good evangelists.
00:56:12.60\00:56:16.17
And so in
America we get the glory,
00:56:16.20\00:56:18.24
we get the glory,
00:56:18.27\00:56:19.91
because of a good sermon,
00:56:19.94\00:56:21.31
or, wow, that was
a powerful message.
00:56:21.34\00:56:23.21
Message series or evangelistic
00:56:23.24\00:56:24.75
so amazing powerful
evangelistic series.
00:56:24.78\00:56:27.52
Yet, he said to His disciples,
"The harvest is plentiful
00:56:27.55\00:56:31.19
but there isn't laborers."
00:56:31.22\00:56:32.55
Yeah.
00:56:32.59\00:56:33.92
And that's where
discipleship comes in
00:56:33.96\00:56:35.29
when we are equipped,
00:56:35.32\00:56:36.79
we go out and
labor to bring others in.
00:56:36.83\00:56:38.69
I think public evangelism
like even in that series
00:56:38.73\00:56:41.36
which was very forward thinking,
00:56:41.40\00:56:44.27
very technologically
advanced at the time,
00:56:44.30\00:56:49.94
has lost its oomph
00:56:49.97\00:56:51.34
because the
members have disengaged.
00:56:51.37\00:56:53.58
It's all about how
many flyers can we get out,
00:56:53.61\00:56:55.84
that's not member engagement in,
00:56:55.88\00:56:57.91
in the harvest field,
00:56:57.95\00:56:59.45
that is just...
00:56:59.48\00:57:00.82
In fact, I did a series,
00:57:00.85\00:57:03.55
I won't tell you which church
00:57:03.59\00:57:05.25
and I knew that
the success of that
00:57:05.29\00:57:07.22
was dependent
upon whether or not
00:57:07.26\00:57:08.59
the members
themselves would get involve
00:57:08.62\00:57:09.96
in bringing their
friends, co-workers, family.
00:57:09.99\00:57:13.36
And some of them
responded this way,
00:57:13.40\00:57:15.76
I don't have any
friends that are non-Adventists.
00:57:15.80\00:57:19.13
Others said, "I don't
have any neighbors nearby."
00:57:19.17\00:57:22.27
Some said, "My
neighbors don't like me."
00:57:22.30\00:57:26.04
And then
afterward, some of them said,
00:57:26.07\00:57:28.28
I wish I had come but I just,
00:57:28.31\00:57:29.64
I didn't come and
the reason why didn't
00:57:29.68\00:57:31.18
because I already
know all the information
00:57:31.21\00:57:32.85
you're going to share.
00:57:32.88\00:57:34.52
We don't have
you there at a series
00:57:34.55\00:57:36.58
to know the information,
00:57:36.62\00:57:37.95
we have you there to
connect with other people.
00:57:37.99\00:57:39.32
That's right.
00:57:39.35\00:57:40.69
And that is the
focus of the church.
00:57:40.72\00:57:42.06
Wow.
00:57:42.09\00:57:43.43
That is a
disciple focused church.
00:57:43.46\00:57:44.83
And therefore as
you'll discover, friends,
00:57:44.86\00:57:46.56
one of the first
components of discipleship
00:57:46.59\00:57:48.60
is Matthew 16:24,
00:57:48.63\00:57:50.50
"If anyone
desires to come after me,
00:57:50.53\00:57:53.54
if you want to be my disciple,
you have to deny yourself,
00:57:53.57\00:57:56.67
if you deny
yourself, Christ can be first
00:57:56.71\00:57:59.01
and you can be an
effective disciple."
00:57:59.04\00:58:01.28
God bless you.
00:58:01.31\00:58:02.64