¤ ¤ Subodh K. Pandit, M.D.
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Welcome back again, this time
Session Twelve. When we finished
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Session Eleven we realized that
something had to have occurred
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to explain the presence of such
a following that Jesus has today
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in the world. It is the
largest following. It cannot be
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explained by what we saw in the
last session, by such a horrible
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start to a life, the shortest
ministry and the worst ending.
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There had to be something that
occurred for us to explain it
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and that is why this session
starts off with saying what
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happened after death? In
Hinduism there is cremation,
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mourning and scattering of the
ashes over and into the river
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Ganges or Ganga - the holy river
- signifying a merger with the
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eternal. And after that
memorials and shrines are
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erected and then what that
individual has done is passed
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over to another who then
carries on the tradition and the
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writings get more and more
complicated, complex and the
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ideas get expounded even better.
In Buddhism, after he died for
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some days those who were around
him worshipped the relics,
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whatever was left, with devotion
and then divided those relics
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into eight parts. They gave them
to seven kings who would go back
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to their own kingdoms and then
those kings would go back and
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take those relics and erect
what is called stupa or memorial
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mounds in their towns, in
their kingdoms. And once Gautama
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Buddha was gone other monks
took over his job and ran the
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monasteries that they set before
In Islam, Muhammad died. The
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next leader took over. His name
was Abu Bakr who ruled or was
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the Caliph for two years and
then another took over, Umar,
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followed by the third 'Uthman,
and then the fourth, Ali. So
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what we see here is once a
leader, the founder, has gone
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the others come in and take over
and the movement continues with
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the help of the next leader. In
Judaism, the story is the same.
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"After the death of Moses...it
came to pass that the Lord spoke
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to Joshua the son of Nun..."
So Moses died, and somebody else
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took over, Joshua took over.
In each of these conditions it's
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the same pattern. The person
dies, they revere him, honor him
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lay him to rest and then
somebody else takes over.
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When you come to the fifth,
Christianity, to Jesus, look at
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these words: "...I am with you
always, even to the end of the
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age." Nobody else is going to
take over now. Wow! In fact he
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says, "I am he who lives, [I]
was dead, and behold I am alive
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forever more...And I have the
keys of Hades and of death" in
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my hands. That is an amazing
claim. Ah our first inclination
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is to just dismiss it as a
mythological story. Yes, if you
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and I are rational thinkers,
that's the way we'll think.
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But remember we asked ourselves
to be inquirers and an inquirer
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will always look at other
possibilities as well. So here
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is how we're going to look at
it. The meaning of resurrection
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is philosophical, is religious,
is Christian, doctrinal. But
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whether it really took place is
not at all religious. It's just
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historical. Here we come to
the sharp focus of the first
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principle we mentioned when
we started out by saying that we
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are going to look at the story,
the paralogous factors, not the
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doctrines and philosophies.
We are looking at the story on
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which the doctrines are based.
Thus if the story is credible,
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the religious doctrines have
a base and become believable.
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So here's the question: Can
the story of the resurrection of
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Jesus be established to
any reasonable degree as a real
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physical event or is it only
a fabricated myth? Here's what
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Wolfhart Pannenberg from Germany
said: "Whether the resurrection
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of Jesus took place or not is a
historical question." Now it is
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not a religious belief question.
It is a historical question.
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"... and so the question has
to be decided on the level of
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historical argument." Not a
belief, not a philosophy, but
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look to see if it is
historically a reliable story.
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So why not just dismiss it? Why
even look at it. Well there are
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two reasons: Number one: as
an inquirer we already saw that
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this story is written in
the best attested historical
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piece of literature.
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If it was mythological or
legendary there would be no
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problem in just tossing it
aside but because it is in a
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historical piece of literature
we cannot toss it aside without
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giving it a good reason. Even
though it's unbelievable, yes we
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recognize but we cannot throw it
aside. Number two: It's a huge
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claim. So it's so big that "it's
either the greatest miracle or
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the greatest delusion which
history records." When you say
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something that big the question
of whether it is true or false.
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If it is true, Wow! And if it is
not true oh horrible. That's the
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difference and that's why we're
going to look at it. Now it
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happened 2000 years ago. How can
we check to see whether it was a
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reliable story? I was wondering
about it until I read these
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words by Wilbur Smith. "Let it
be simply said that we know more
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about the details of the
hours immediately before and the
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actual death of Jesus...than
we know about the death of any
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other one man in all the ancient
world...We know more about the
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burial of the Lord Jesus than we
know of the burial of any single
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character in all of ancient
history." Those are quite
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stunning words. Kings, emperors,
mighty military generals have
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died. Jesus was kind of like
a barefoot, itinerant preacher
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from the backwaters of Galilee.
How do we know more about his
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death and burial than all the
others put together. How do we
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know more about him than the
death of say Napoleon or Julius
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Caesar or any of the Pharaohs?
But that is what we find, a good
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description of what happened at
the death and what happened at
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the burial. So it gave me
confidence that I could probably
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look at the story and if the
author is in question we might
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be able to pick out the points
and decide whether this is
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really reliable, has a good base
or very suspect. And here we
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follow Aristotle's dictum who
said: The benefit of the doubt
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is to be given to the document
itself, not arrogated by the
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critic to himself. Because the
critics were not there. If the
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author was probably there and
we saw that in the New Testament
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the authors were right
there, they were eyewitnesses.
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So we cannot really dismiss this
story without giving it a good
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chance. So John W. Montgomery
also expounded on this and he
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said: "One must listen to
the claims of the document under
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analysis, and not assume
fraud or error unless the author
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disqualifies himself by
contradictions or known factual
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inaccuracies." So here is what
we are faced with. If the story
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is unbelievable which it really
is to a rational thinker then
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what could the correct story
be because something happened.
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And the reason it is
unbelievable because it strains
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our rational thinking, it's
strains our sense of reasoning.
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So suppose we put another story.
We should not strain our sense
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of reasoning again otherwise we
would have jumped from the pan
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into the fire again. So we must
look for a good explanation if
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we want to toss this story
aside Philosopher David Hume's
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criteria:
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Now he was a secular philosopher
in other words, he didn't really
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believe in miracles. So this is
what he said: A miracle may be
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believed only if we find that
the arguments [and] explanations
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produced, to show that it is not
true are more unbelievable than
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the [story] itself. In other
words, disproving the miracle
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would require an explanation
even more unbelievable than the
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miracle itself! OR, any
alternate story proposed is
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even more [unbelievable]." A
greater miracle. So with that
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let's look at what they
have proposed as alternatives.
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There are many, it can be boiled
down to about two. Number one:
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He did not die - he only fainted
It's called a swoon theory.
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There was so much of blood loss
and blood pressure came down
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and he fainted. The people
thought he was dead and they
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put him into the tomb and he
rose up from there because he
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was not dead. The swoon theory.
Number two is the theft theory.
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He did die but he did not rise.
The disciples or whoever came
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and stole the body. Let's
look at these two propositions.
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First, he did not die.
That means that he only swooned.
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It's called the swoon theory.
There are five points we're
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going to look at one by one.
Who made sure that he was dead?
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Pilot did. Pilot was alive at
that time. He was the governor
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at that time. Look at the words:
"Pilate marveled that he was
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already dead." Now there's a
ring of truth to this because he
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marveled. Why would Pilot
marvel The story is this. He was
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crucified and then the friends
and relatives of Jesus came to
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Pilot and said please give us
the body so that we can bury it.
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Give him an honorable burial.
And Pilot marveled that he was
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already dead. Why would he
marvel? Because crucifixion
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takes days not hours. Some have
stayed on for two or three days.
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Some have been known to
hang there for seven days before
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dying. And here in six hours you
say he's dead. So can you see
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why Pilot would have marveled?
And therefore what did he do?
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"...summoning the centurion,
he asked him if he had been dead
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for some time. So when he
found out from the centurion, he
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granted the body to Joseph."
So who made out that he was dead
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for sure? Pilot. How did he make
sure? He asked the centurion.
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How did the centurion make sure?
We have the story. When they
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the soldiers, came to Jesus
hung on the cross, they saw that
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was motionless and appeared dead
Now the friends and people of
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Jesus wanted the body. Pilot
wants to know whether he is dead
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so they could give them the body
and here the centurion looked at
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the body, looks dead but how do
you know he's dead? And he's not
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going to bring down the body
unless it's dead. So he does the
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only think he could possibly
think of; he called a soldier
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with a spear and said, One
thrust onto that body to make
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sure that the body is dead.
Those who have looked at it and
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studied it say that if he didn't
die of crucifixion, he would
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have died of that spear thrust.
That was what it was meant to do
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kill. And the Roman soldiers
were the most trained soldiers
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in the world. They were trained
to fight against enemies who
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were also soldiers. How easy to
kill a person who is motionless
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and just hanging on the cross.
One thrust. Now we know why the
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spear was thrust, to make sure
he was dead. That is number two.
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Number three: John the
writer who was a witness says:
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"...one of the soldiers pierced
His side with a spear, and
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immediately blood and water
came out...he who has seen has
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testified." What is the meaning
of blood and water? Well, I'm a
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physician so I was looking for
a physiological explanation for
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that. Have you heard of
the expression brokenhearted
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individual? Yeah. Are
they happy or sad. They're sad.
00:14:15.95\00:14:19.79
Brokenhearted. Do you know where
that came from? One of the ways
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that expression came was from
the experience that people had
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in the good old days when they
found that two people who were
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say deeply in love, very
close to each other, couldn't do
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without one another and then
they were forced to separate
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They noted that sometimes one
of the partners died without any
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known cause. So people would
wonder how come the person died.
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They would do a post mortem and
at post mortem they would find
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that the heart muscle had
ruptured. Grief! Pain. Sorrow
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and stress could come to such
a degree that the heart muscle
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would just rupture. So
it's possible that Jesus' heart
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muscle ruptured. Now if
the heart muscle ruptures where
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would the blood go? It will
collect in the sack called the
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pericardial sack. The heart is
surrounded by a sack. When that
00:15:23.65\00:15:28.12
happens the blood is now in the
sack gushing out from the heart
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It fills the sack so the
pressure in the sack goes up and
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presses down on the muscle
and the muscle thence can't even
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pump. So the heart stops and the
patient dies. Now what happened
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to the blood in the sack? It
will mix with the pericardial
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fluid and it will partially clot
Partially clotted blood, the
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clotted portion will come
down to the bottom and leave the
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upper part which is now called
the serum without any of the red
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blood cells, the white blood
cells and the platelets. So it's
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clear and it's called serum. So
it will come down in two parts
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the bottom red bottom blood,
the one on top clear serum.
00:16:09.13\00:16:14.80
If the spear
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had hit at the junction we would
have two streams coming out.
00:16:16.27\00:16:21.04
But remember two things have
to happen: The blood has to stop
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flowing. That's number one. And
it has to stop flowing for some
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time. It doesn't happen
very quickly in a minute or two.
00:16:31.62\00:16:34.62
So when you see two streams and
John saw that. He didn't know
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about serum so he used the word
water. So when we look at that
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today we can deduce two things:
The blood had stopped flowing
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and number two, it had stopped
flowing for some time. You
00:16:48.14\00:16:53.74
remember exactly what Pilot
asked of the centurion? Was he
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dead for some time? So that's
what we see in this third point.
00:16:58.15\00:17:05.25
Number four is if he just
fainted and was put into the
00:17:05.29\00:17:09.16
tomb, how did he get out of the
tomb? Look at the questions that
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come up now. Number one: How
did he unwrap the grave clothes
00:17:14.13\00:17:18.53
which are actually strips.
Number two: How did he find his
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way to the door in the darkness
of the tomb? Number three: How
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How did he break the seal which
was on the outside of the tomb
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while he was on the inside?
Number four: How did he roll
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away the stone. In Arabic,
it's called golel. Golel means a
00:17:35.88\00:17:41.26
a large stone and when you study
the word and look at how they
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used it, it would require
anywhere from three to 15 people
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to move it and here we're saying
an individual who actually was
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half an individual, how could he
have moved that golel. His hands
00:17:54.30\00:17:59.17
were pierced and after a few
hours the wound would be really
00:17:59.21\00:18:03.75
swollen and absolutely painful.
How did he use his hands? Well
00:18:03.78\00:18:07.12
he could have used his shoulder
maybe. But if he used his
00:18:07.15\00:18:09.42
shoulder then he would have
to push with his feet. His feet
00:18:09.45\00:18:12.85
were also pierced. There's
no way he could have pushed that
00:18:12.89\00:18:17.39
golel away from the door of the
tomb. And even if he did was it
00:18:17.43\00:18:22.83
so well-greased and lubricated
so that it didn't make a sound?
00:18:22.86\00:18:27.94
Think. It would have made a
grating, crunching sound. So
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none of the guards knew that?
How do we explain? Just silent
00:18:33.51\00:18:38.61
activity. How would we explain
also the fact that the guards
00:18:38.65\00:18:41.68
were right there? They all went
to sleep and all derelict in
00:18:41.72\00:18:46.82
their duty at the same time?
That seems preposterous, right?
00:18:46.86\00:18:50.86
All of them asleep exactly when
he was coming out? And really
00:18:50.89\00:18:56.46
look at the condition of his
body, pierced in the hands and
00:18:56.50\00:18:59.80
the feet, his back lashed
and this seething mass of bloody
00:18:59.83\00:19:06.37
tissue there. His torso body
thrust with a spear. How could
00:19:06.41\00:19:11.91
he have come out and escaped
from the tomb. The most I think
00:19:11.95\00:19:16.28
we can imagine him doing
was just crawl out. None of the
00:19:16.32\00:19:21.79
soldiers caught him? That's hard
So number four: How did he get
00:19:21.82\00:19:28.30
out? We don't know. Number five:
Multiple testimonials. Pilot was
00:19:28.33\00:19:32.80
convinced Jesus was dead. The
centurion was convinced Jesus
00:19:32.83\00:19:35.80
was dead. Even his friends
were convinced. How do we know?
00:19:35.84\00:19:38.97
They brought embalming material.
Look, nobody embalms a body that
00:19:39.01\00:19:45.61
is alive. Why? Because embalming
material is so toxic that it
00:19:45.65\00:19:50.35
will kill the body. So nobody
brings embalming material to
00:19:50.39\00:19:55.79
embalm a body unless it is
gone dead. So we have today no
00:19:55.82\00:20:00.40
reasonable grounds to dispute
the question. Jesus most likely
00:20:00.43\00:20:05.67
was well and truly dead. How
about the body stolen? Here are
00:20:05.70\00:20:11.01
then five points. The report
that the soldiers gave was this.
00:20:11.04\00:20:16.78
"His disciples came at night and
stole Him away while we slept."
00:20:16.81\00:20:20.75
Now one reading of that story
will tell you it's false. Why?
00:20:20.78\00:20:24.82
Because you cannot be awake and
asleep at the same time. If you
00:20:24.85\00:20:28.82
were asleep how do you know the
disciples came and stole him?
00:20:28.86\00:20:31.59
Was one of your eyes open? No.
When you say you were asleep you
00:20:31.63\00:20:37.37
cannot say the disciples
took him. So the story is
00:20:37.40\00:20:41.40
inconsistent internally.
Externally also the report is
00:20:41.44\00:20:44.67
inconsistent because the
soldiers were armed, not the
00:20:44.71\00:20:49.31
disciples. So in both ways it's
an inconsistent report. Number
00:20:49.34\00:20:53.65
two: The story says that there
were some folded clothes inside
00:20:53.68\00:20:57.39
the tomb. Look, we are accusing
these disciples of being thieves
00:20:57.42\00:21:04.59
They came and robbed the grave.
A theft scene is not orderly.
00:21:04.63\00:21:10.87
It's always helter skelter. We
don't go and steal and say well
00:21:10.90\00:21:15.50
before we take off with our
booty let's fold some clothes.
00:21:15.54\00:21:18.57
Nobody does that. In other words
thieves don't make good house
00:21:18.61\00:21:23.65
helpers. They don't fold clothes
Number three: Remember what we
00:21:23.68\00:21:28.05
said about the person crucified?
The Romans stripped them naked
00:21:28.08\00:21:33.09
to heap the maximum amount
of shame on the body. The story
00:21:33.12\00:21:39.69
here says that the clothes were
all inside the tomb, therefore,
00:21:39.73\00:21:42.86
the theory must be that the
disciples took out a naked body.
00:21:42.90\00:21:46.74
Think of it. Why would they do
that? If you or I were going to
00:21:46.77\00:21:52.31
steal something and if it's all
nicely wrapped and packed for us
00:21:52.34\00:21:55.24
wouldn't you and I just pick it
up and run both. Why sit there
00:21:55.28\00:21:58.25
unwrapping. There is no
explanation that is possible for
00:21:58.28\00:22:03.28
unwrapping because the soldiers
were right there a few yards
00:22:03.32\00:22:07.22
away. Why would you sit and
unwrap? Just take it and go.
00:22:07.26\00:22:09.89
And also no follower of a Guru
or a shishya in the east will
00:22:09.92\00:22:17.80
ever think of exposing the
nakedness of his master. No sir!
00:22:17.83\00:22:22.20
That's a psychological hurdle
we cannot cross. They could not
00:22:22.24\00:22:25.87
have done that. So the story
actually loses its significance
00:22:25.91\00:22:29.78
right there; the credibility
falls flat. No follower would
00:22:29.81\00:22:33.45
have done that. And number four:
The same thing as Jesus coming
00:22:33.48\00:22:37.49
out from the tomb. How did the
disciples enter into the tomb?
00:22:37.52\00:22:42.76
What was the method? No
convincing, practical method of
00:22:42.79\00:22:47.90
entry by the disciples into the
tomb has ever been described.
00:22:47.93\00:22:51.90
The guards were stationed there
for only one purpose written in
00:22:51.93\00:22:55.34
the record: Prevent theft.
How did they allow that theft to
00:22:55.37\00:23:00.61
occur? There is no
plausible explanation.
00:23:00.64\00:23:03.14
Number five: When we accuse a
person of a crime and if we go
00:23:03.18\00:23:11.45
to a court of law the primary
thrust of your case is that
00:23:11.49\00:23:18.86
there's a motive. Without the
motive it's very hard to pin a
00:23:18.89\00:23:23.20
criminal activity. So what was
the motive the disciples had?
00:23:23.23\00:23:28.57
The more you think about it the
more you realize that they had
00:23:28.60\00:23:32.07
no motive. They did not know
that Jesus was going to rise up
00:23:32.11\00:23:36.21
from the dead. If they had, they
wouldn't have denied him or even
00:23:36.24\00:23:41.58
fled from him. And they did
that when he was alive. Did they
00:23:41.62\00:23:45.02
become bold after he died?
That's again a psychological
00:23:45.05\00:23:48.82
dispute there. We are doing it
the wrong way. So there cannot
00:23:48.86\00:23:54.50
be a good story without a motive
if it is theft that took place.
00:23:54.53\00:23:59.73
There was no way they could have
thought ahead and said, Well
00:23:59.77\00:24:03.61
let's make up a story of his
resurrection. Nope. No motive.
00:24:03.64\00:24:08.54
No crime. So here's what we find
"Non-miraculous explanations of
00:24:08.58\00:24:14.68
of what happened at the empty
tomb have to face a cruel choice
00:24:14.72\00:24:19.29
Either they have to rewrite the
evidence to suit themselves or
00:24:19.32\00:24:22.89
they have to accept the fact
that they are not consistent
00:24:22.92\00:24:26.70
with present evidence." In other
words Corduan says this: If you
00:24:26.73\00:24:32.80
look at the story and the
details of the story and if you
00:24:32.83\00:24:39.14
then try to make another theory
than the actual resurrection
00:24:39.17\00:24:44.65
story then you will come to
clash with the evidence that you
00:24:44.68\00:24:48.18
find in the writing. Or you
make up a story that's even more
00:24:48.22\00:24:52.62
unbelievable than the story.
Remember what Philosopher David
00:24:52.65\00:24:57.13
Hume said? A miracle may be
believed only if we find that
00:24:57.16\00:25:03.16
the arguments and the
explanations produced to show
00:25:03.20\00:25:06.63
that it is not true are
even more unbelievable than the
00:25:06.67\00:25:10.54
miracle itself. Or in other
words, disproving the miracle
00:25:10.57\00:25:14.51
would require an explanation
even more unbelievable than the
00:25:14.54\00:25:19.08
miracle itself or any other
alternative story proposed is
00:25:19.11\00:25:23.52
even more miraculous than the
original one! So now when you
00:25:23.55\00:25:27.86
look at this both the swoon
theory in which we say he just
00:25:27.89\00:25:33.76
fainted and then he came out
from the tomb by himself as well
00:25:33.80\00:25:38.00
as the theft theory which
says that the disciples came and
00:25:38.03\00:25:41.90
stole the body while the guards
all slept; these two require
00:25:41.94\00:25:48.71
more miracles. In other words,
a number, multiple miracles.
00:25:48.74\00:25:53.75
I hope you saw that, than
the one miracle which is the
00:25:53.78\00:25:57.42
resurrection story. Therefore,
if you and I want to be rational
00:25:57.45\00:26:02.66
reasonable thinkers who don't
believe in miracles at all then
00:26:02.69\00:26:07.86
we would have to first disband
or dismiss the swoon theory and
00:26:07.90\00:26:13.67
the theft theory because they
are even more miraculous and
00:26:13.70\00:26:17.34
then come to decide about
the resurrection story. Because
00:26:17.37\00:26:22.54
something did happen. We cannot
explain the Christian church
00:26:22.58\00:26:29.98
from a point in which its
founder was done to death as a
00:26:30.02\00:26:35.76
condemned criminal and publicly
humiliated, put to utter shame
00:26:35.79\00:26:41.56
and found that in their own
writings this person was hanged
00:26:41.60\00:26:47.54
was actually cursed of God. How
will anybody follow him? So when
00:26:47.57\00:26:53.54
we look at the story, the swoon
theory and the theft theory
00:26:53.58\00:26:57.21
really do not stand up to
scrutiny. Now that's on the side
00:26:57.25\00:27:02.92
of those alternative stories.
We have another question left
00:27:02.95\00:27:06.76
then. If the story is really
true do we have evidence for
00:27:06.79\00:27:13.16
that? And that is what we are
going to see next. So stay tuned
00:27:13.19\00:27:18.47
We will go to our final session
to decide and look into that.
00:27:18.50\00:27:23.47
If you have enjoyed this
presentation with Dr. Subodh
00:27:23.51\00:27:29.18
Pandit and wish to watch more of
this unique 13 part series for
00:27:29.21\00:27:33.65
free online visit the website
GodFactOrFiction.com. That's
00:27:33.68\00:27:39.45
GodFactOrFiction.com. If
you would like to order this
00:27:39.49\00:27:43.16
fascinating series on DVD it is
now available from White Horse
00:27:43.19\00:27:46.46
Media...
00:27:46.49\00:27:54.57
Dr. Subodh Pandit has written
two eye-opening books entitled
00:27:54.60\00:27:58.11
Come Search With Me: Does God
Really Exist? and Come Search
00:27:58.14\00:28:02.74
With Me: The Weight of Evidence
which further explore the topics
00:28:02.78\00:28:06.31
of evolution,
theism, atheism and religion.
00:28:06.35\00:28:10.52
¤ ¤
00:28:10.55\00:28:26.47