¤ ¤ Subodh K. Pandit, M.D.
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Welcome again, this time to
Session Nine. We're going to do
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a little shift now. We have been
talking about the literature of
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these different religions.
Now we're going to shift to the
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founders of them and compare
the founders. All of them are
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powerful, wonderful messages
brought through them, but we
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want to compare them. So
the next four sessions will be a
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comparison of the founders.
Here's the first question I
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asked the founder: What is
the highest claim you make for
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yourself? Now why did I ask that
It's because they brought such
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an amazing, an amazing message
and a message that allows us or
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rather pushes us to shift from
this world to the next. Now such
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a powerful claim; how do I know
that you are really authentic?
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And how do I know that you are
able to do that. So I was asking
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for their credentials. In other
words, like a CV, a resume. What
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is the highest claim you make
for yourself? So here's what we
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got when I asked that question.
In Hinduism, the founder is not
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Visvamitra. He's just one of
the authors and there are many
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authors in Hinduism who brought
to us the actual message. But
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the highest claim all the
authors made was that of a sage.
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Who is a sage? A sage is
a revered individual in the
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society, in the community,
in which they live. Good poise,
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personality, deep piety and
a good grasp of the literature
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their sacred literature of
that community. That's a sage.
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How about Buddhism?
Gautama Buddha claimed to be the
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Enlightened One, the one who had
all the light in the world. He
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says that one night in the
eastern part of India he was
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given that light in four stages.
So he got up in the morning and
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he said, Now I am
the Enlightened One.
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Islam: Muhammad said he was the
Seal of the Prophets. Islamic
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tradition says that Allah sent
down 124,000 prophets. About
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20 or 25 of them are by name
in the Quran beginning from Adam
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and then Enoch, maybe Noah,
Abraham, the 12 patriarchs of
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the Jews, Jesus, John
the Baptist. All of them are
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mentioned by name, but among all
of them Muhammad is considered
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the Seal of the Prophets. That
was his highest claim. Judaism:
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Let's say Moses was their
founder. Abraham also could be
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a part of that. But
Moses declared himself to be a
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Prophet of God and the people
described him as the lawgiver
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of Israel. He went up on a
mountain, Mt. Sinai, and got the
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law from God's own hand and came
down. Lawgiver of Israel. Then
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you come to Jesus, this is what
he said: He claimed to be the
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Son of God. Now some
differentiate between Son of God
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and God, but really the Son of
God is God. He came to be God.
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Wow! Look at those five and
consider all of them. And I am
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asking the question, which is
the highest claim you make for
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yourself? So which is the
highest claim? You will have to
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agree that the line has to be
drawn between the first four and
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the last, the fifth. Because the
first four are all human. Jesus
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came to be God, to
belong to that realm, which is a
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supernatural realm. Wow! Hard to
believe but that's what he said.
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Now you and I cannot controvert
any of their claims. None of us
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can say Gautama Buddha you're
not the Enlightened One, or
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Muhammad you are not the Seal
of the Prophets. Similarly we
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can't say to Jesus you
are not the Son of God. We may
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disbelieve but we can't really
make a claim on that point.
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So we are going to look at them
at face value and if you take
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the face value then here's the
obvious claim that Jesus made
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of being the Son of God. NO
other founder claimed to be at
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the level of God. But still our
faith and belief still struggles
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So here's what I did. I looked
to see if they were humans
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who called themselves God. And
here the claim is to the title
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of God. Mad or deluded. Number
two: A liar or impostor. Number
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three: An egomaniac or a
megalomaniac. Number four: Just
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honestly mistaken. And number
five: May be truly God. Was he
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mad or deluded? What do some
great thinkers say? I'm going to
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describe and quote the words of
a person who was not considered
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always a great thinker. He was
more considered a world emperor.
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His name: Napoleon Bonaparte. In
his exile years they asked him
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to check out those teachings
of Jesus and he had time so when
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he did it these are his words:
Everything in Christ astonishes
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me... the nearer I approach,
the more carefully I examine,
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everything is above me -
everything remains grand,
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of a grandeur which overpowers
...neither history, nor humanity
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nor the ages, nor nature, offer
me anything with which I am able
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to compare it or [even to]
explain it. Here everything is
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extraordinary." That was said
because he compared the kingdom
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that Jesus built to his. He
had made his kingdom with force,
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deceit and bloodshed and
military genius. Jesus without
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a sword just spoke words,
and his kingdom was set. And
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Napoleon came 1800 years
after Jesus and this was his
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confession. People are willing
to die for Jesus. Nobody's
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willing to die for me. He must
have created an extraordinary
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empire. That's why he said those
words. And how about Bernard
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Ramm who spoke about the words
of Jesus: "They are read more,
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quoted more, loved more,
believed more, and translated
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more because they are the
greatest words ever spoken.
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And where is their greatness?
Their greatness lies in the pure
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lucid spirituality in dealing
clearly, definitively and
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authoritatively with the
greatest problems that throb in
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the human breast." So I did
not find any serious scholar who
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ever called Jesus mad. Was he a
liar or an impostor? Not likely
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because of the Sanhedrin trial.
During that trial they asked him
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the same question we are asking
today: "Tell us if you are...the
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Son of God." Jesus was a
thoroughbred Jew. He knew that
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if he claimed to be the Son of
God, they would charge him with
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blasphemy and he would go to his
death. Now you tell me; if you
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are on trial for your life would
you not bring truthful evidence
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to escape the death sentence.
Would you not also be severely
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tempted, maybe you would bring
untruthful, false testimony to
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escape the death sentence. Yeah,
people in their right mind don't
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want to die. Nobody in their
right mind will ever bring false
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testimony to bring on the death
sentence. And in this case Jesus
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answered in the affirmative. He
agreed to being the Son of God.
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And he went to his death. So
it's difficult for us to say he
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was a liar. Who is a liar? A
person who knows the truth and
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purposefully states something
else. Difficult. Now pin that on
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Jesus. He died for what he said.
Therefore, I don't know if he is
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the Son of God, but this much
I know. He fully, completely,
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totally believed that he was the
Son of God because he confessed
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it. So I could not call him
a liar. How about egomaniac?
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Now we do have humans who have
called themselves God because
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they're egomaniacal,
megalomaniacs we call them.
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The Pharaohs of Egypt called
themselves god. The Caesars of
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Rome called themselves god
on pain of death. They had the
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position and authority to
enforce that, you have to call
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me god. This man had no
authority. He washed the dirty
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feet of his disciples like a
common servant at one time. That
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is not being puffed up
with an polluted sense of self
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importance. No. And he turned
to his disciples and he said you
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also must wash one another's
feet. This is a picture of self
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abnegation, not of being a
megalomaniac. How about being
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honestly mistaken. This is what
Richard Dawkins said: "A fourth
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possibility, almost too obvious
to need mentioning is that Jesus
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was honestly mistaken. Plenty
of people are." Tell me, really?
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Would be "honestly mistaken"
that you are the king or the
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queen of England? Would you
be honestly mistaken that you
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landed just here from Mars
on a space ship? No friend. You
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cannot be honestly mistaken
about major things. Yes, you can
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be honestly mistaken a face in
a crowd or where you left your
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keys. But you cannot be mistaken
about huge big things. "Is such
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an intellect, clear as the sky,
bracing as the mountain air,
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sharp and penetrating as a sword
thoroughly healthy and vigorous,
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always ready and always self-
possessed, liable to a radical
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and most serious delusion
concerning his own character
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and mission? Preposterous
suggestion!" He was clear in his
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mind and yet he made the claim.
And therefore it doesn't seem
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that he was honestly mistaken.
Because we cannot be honestly
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mistaken about major factors.
So, truly God? I don't know, you
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don't know. We're just inquirers
right now. And when we look at
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the claim, well he looks just
like anybody else, he behaves
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like anybody else, he dresses
like anybody else, he eats like
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and he works like anybody
else. How can he be called God?
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So we will give him the
highest we can give, the highest
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position, but not God. We'll say
he's a great moral teacher, a
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wonderful, powerful prophet but
not God. And then I read these
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words by C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis
was one time an avowed atheist,
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professor of literature at
Cambridge University who looked
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at it in a logical way and so
here are his words: "I am trying
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here to prevent anyone saying
the really foolish thing that
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people often say about him: [And
that is] 'I'm ready to accept
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Jesus as a great moral teacher
but, I don't accept his claim to
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be God'. That is the one thing
we must not say. A man who was
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merely a man and said the sort
of things Jesus said would not
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be a great moral teacher.
He would be either a lunatic-on
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a level with the man who says
he is a poached egg or else he
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would be a devil of hell. You
must make your choice. Either
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this man was, and is, the
Son of God: or else a mad man or
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something worse. You can shut
Him up for a fool, you can spit
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at Him and kill Him as a demon;
or you can fall at his feet and
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call Him Lord and God. But
let us not come up with any
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patronizing nonsense about His
being a great human teacher. He
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has not left that open to us. He
did not intend to." Now whether
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we agree to that or not, when we
look at all the claims that have
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been made it is very clear that
Jesus made the highest claim of
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all, that of being God. We can't
get away from that because it
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was there in the writings.
The next one: How were the words
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given to us regarding the
message and mission? Now the
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message and mission is huge
and broad, but my question was
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would we be able to put it in a
nutshell just a sentence or two?
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How do you describe your
mission? And here is what we
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find. Hinduism: The whole
message and mission of the Hindu
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writers and authors were: To
show the way to ultimate truth
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of the matter, which is,
the merging of the human Atma or
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soul with the Super soul or
Brahman. And that is the way you
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escape this world and get to
the abode of Brahma. So we will
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teach you the way to the
truth of the matter. That is the
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message and the
mission of the Hindu authors.
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How about Buddhism?
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Here are the words of Gautama
Buddha: "For Enlightenment I was
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born, for the good of all that
lives." So what was the message
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and mission of Gautama Buddha?
His message was to bring light
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to the world. This is what he
claimed. I was enlightened and
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so because I was enlightened
I've got the information that I
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can enlighten you also. And
the basis of it would be what is
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called the Four Golden Rules and
the Eight Right Circumstances. I
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was enlightened. So that's
my claim. The highest claim of
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Gautama Buddha was that of being
an enlightened individual. How
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about Islam? For Muslims the
Quran is the infallible Word of
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God...revealed to the prophet
Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel.
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So what was the message and
mission of Mohammad? To bring
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the word of Allah to the human
race. The word of god to the
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human race. Now when you look
at the writings we will have to
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agree to something. When you use
the word Word of God then in one
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sense only the Quran can
actually fit that description.
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Here's what I mean. When you
look at say the Hindu writings
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you will find so and so, and
so and so, and so and so, also
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speaking, writing. When you look
at the Buddhist literature the
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disciples also write in the
writings. Amamabo Gautama Buddha
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himself writes. He never called
himself god. But he writes there
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When you look at the Judaic
scriptures well Moses spoke and
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Samuel spoke and David spoke,
Isaiah spoke. When you look at
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the Christian literature, well
Matthew spoke and Paul spoke
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Peter spoke. So in most all of
these writings people other than
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god speak in the writings.
The Quran is the only writing in
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which are written the words of
Allah and nobody else. Therefore
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in a technical sense that can be
called the Word of God. So fair
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enough. Did you saw wow to
that? It is amazing. That can be
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called the words of Allah,
the words of god. And so the
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message and mission of Muhammad:
Bring the word of Allah, of god,
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to the human race. How about
Judaism? "You shall therefore
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keep My statutes [these
are the words of God] You shall
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therefore keep My statutes
and My judgments, which if a man
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does, he shall live..." This is
the mouth of Yahweh God speaking
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to Moses, giving him the
commands, the statutes, the
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rules that must govern the
people. And if you keep to those
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rules, oh well then,
you're on the right side.
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You will have life.
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If you break the rules then you
don't have life, you'll die. So
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what was the message and mission
of Moses? To bring the rules and
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the commands of God so that
you can keep it and have life.
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So he will bring life via the
commands of God. How about Jesus
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now? Here we've come to a
big difference because he stated
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words which are quite different
from anyone else. He used the
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words I Am. Look at the way he
writes. "I am the way, the truth
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and the life." "I am the light
of the world." I am "the Word
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[that] became flesh." "I am the
resurrection and the life." The
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words I Am are absolutely unique
No other founder ever used the
00:17:59.44\00:18:04.88
words I Am. So let's compare
now what the other founders and
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writers wrote and look at
how he used the words I Am. The
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Hindu writers said we will show
you the way to the truth of the
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matter. He said, I Am the way,
the truth. When Gautama Buddha
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said I was enlightened and
because of the light that I got
00:18:28.77\00:18:33.74
I will make others also
enlightened. Jesus said, I Am
00:18:33.78\00:18:38.41
the light that enlightens. Now
which would you prefer? If you
00:18:38.45\00:18:43.55
were going out in a stormy night
would you prefer just the light,
00:18:43.59\00:18:47.26
say a candle or even a lantern
or would you prefer the source
00:18:47.29\00:18:51.23
of the light which can always be
beside you to light your candle
00:18:51.26\00:18:54.96
in case the wind blows it
out? Which would you prefer? The
00:18:55.00\00:18:59.90
light as an entity in your hand
or the source of the light which
00:18:59.93\00:19:06.88
can always light up in case your
light goes out. When Jesus said
00:19:06.91\00:19:12.71
I am the light he was describing
himself as the source of that
00:19:12.75\00:19:17.09
light. An amazing difference.
How about what Muhammad said?
00:19:17.12\00:19:23.16
We agreed that the Quran was
what Allah would send through
00:19:23.19\00:19:28.76
Muhammad to the race. And
therefore Muhammad's message
00:19:28.80\00:19:32.70
and mission was to bring the
world the words of Allah to the
00:19:32.73\00:19:34.87
human race. Jesus described
himself as being the Word. If
00:19:34.90\00:19:40.44
Muhammad said I'm bringing you
the word, Jesus said I Am the
00:19:40.48\00:19:43.55
Word in the flesh. When it comes
to Moses, Moses said I will
00:19:43.58\00:19:49.78
bring you the commands so that
you can have life. Jesus said I
00:19:49.82\00:19:54.06
Am the life and the resurrection
The words I Am set him apart.
00:19:54.09\00:19:59.33
For example,
really, if you remove Buddha
00:19:59.36\00:20:03.50
one can still reach
00:20:03.53\00:20:05.57
Buddhahood by following the
writings that he has left behind
00:20:05.60\00:20:09.80
and the other writers
and authors have expanded on.
00:20:09.84\00:20:14.11
If you remove Moses, you
can still be an Israelite by
00:20:14.14\00:20:18.21
following the writings of Moses,
the Old Testament, the Talmud
00:20:18.25\00:20:22.32
and all the rest. If you remove
the authors in Hinduism, one can
00:20:22.35\00:20:28.19
still reach the abode of Brahma
by following those writings.
00:20:28.22\00:20:32.13
And if you remove Muhammad, the
perfect man who really brought
00:20:32.16\00:20:36.60
the word of Allah to us one
can still pass judgment on the
00:20:36.63\00:20:40.80
judgment day by following
the words that were in the book.
00:20:40.84\00:20:45.37
We did not really need him
although he was a good example.
00:20:45.41\00:20:48.68
But we did not need him for us
to pass judgment. But here's the
00:20:48.71\00:20:53.78
difference. When it comes
to Christianity, if you remove
00:20:53.82\00:20:58.15
Jesus the Christianity statement
claims that there is actually
00:20:58.19\00:21:04.89
nothing left because he was
the message. In other words, all
00:21:04.93\00:21:11.60
the founders of the various
religions and belief systems
00:21:11.63\00:21:14.44
claimed to bring a message
to the world. None ever claimed
00:21:14.47\00:21:19.67
to be the message except Jesus.
So the declaration of I Am sets
00:21:19.71\00:21:25.35
him apart as truly unique. Now
we need to go back a little bit
00:21:25.38\00:21:31.72
to find out what we have done so
far. Remember, we are asking the
00:21:31.75\00:21:36.66
question to the founders. And
the question I asked was what's
00:21:36.69\00:21:42.00
the highest claim you make
for yourself? We are asking for
00:21:42.03\00:21:46.60
credentials. We want to be
sure because I wanted to be sure
00:21:46.63\00:21:50.24
about where to hang my eternal
destiny. That's what they were
00:21:50.27\00:21:55.11
claiming. Come, we will give you
an eternal destiny. And here, if
00:21:55.14\00:21:58.65
we want to hang it there we must
know their credentials. Think.
00:21:58.68\00:22:02.82
Would you follow just a human
who is living on this earth?
00:22:02.85\00:22:06.76
Who is surrounded by what
surrounds us? And is subject to
00:22:06.79\00:22:11.89
all the limitations that we
are subject to? Is that a person
00:22:11.93\00:22:16.46
whose words I will really follow
or should it be a person who
00:22:16.50\00:22:23.17
really came from there, who
claimed to have a connection
00:22:23.20\00:22:26.71
with the top, with the realm and
the dimension of God? That he
00:22:26.74\00:22:32.85
can tell us how to get from this
dimension to the next. How to
00:22:32.88\00:22:37.62
get away from this realm
and with so much of pain and
00:22:37.65\00:22:41.09
suffering and death to a place
where all of these are gone.
00:22:41.12\00:22:45.06
That is what we were trying
to do. And if you look at the
00:22:45.09\00:22:50.23
question and the answer it seems
to be very clear that Jesus made
00:22:50.27\00:22:55.47
the highest claim. His claim
written down for anyone to read.
00:22:55.50\00:23:00.38
Puts him above. And then we ask
well what is your message? Now
00:23:00.41\00:23:05.75
think of the consistency of
the answers. He claimed to come
00:23:05.78\00:23:12.65
from the realm of God. If he
really came from there then he
00:23:12.69\00:23:19.33
would bring it within himself
the message. You see the other
00:23:19.36\00:23:24.83
founders had to say I am
bringing you a message because
00:23:24.87\00:23:29.40
they got the message from
another source so they could
00:23:29.44\00:23:34.18
bring it. Jesus was able to say
I am the message because he was
00:23:34.21\00:23:40.62
the source of the message.
He came from where the message
00:23:40.65\00:23:43.59
actually dwells and lives. Let's
look at one other comparison.
00:23:43.62\00:23:50.09
Let's compare Jesus to Gautama
Buddha. He said I look for light
00:23:50.13\00:23:57.30
For six years he looked for
light, beating himself, starving
00:23:57.33\00:24:01.54
himself, going through penance.
Jesus didn't have to do any of
00:24:01.57\00:24:06.81
that. He just simply stated
I Am the light. Isn't that a
00:24:06.84\00:24:12.91
difference? How about the other
difference between Jesus and
00:24:12.95\00:24:16.65
Muhammad? You know one of the
reasons they say Muhammad and
00:24:16.69\00:24:20.36
agree that Muhammad is the Seal
of the Prophets is because of an
00:24:20.39\00:24:23.26
experience he had. It's called
issurah mirej. Issurah means
00:24:23.29\00:24:29.50
night journey, mirej means the
accent and this is the story.
00:24:29.53\00:24:34.04
One night he was sleeping
in Mecca when the angel Gabriel
00:24:34.07\00:24:38.01
came to him and said, Come
with me. And beside them was the
00:24:38.04\00:24:42.44
heavenly horse Buraq. So
they both climbed onto Buraq and
00:24:42.48\00:24:47.45
Buraq flew them from Mecca to
the temple mount in Jerusalem.
00:24:47.48\00:24:52.25
There was a ladder that was
going upwards. You see Allah had
00:24:52.29\00:24:57.73
created seven heavens and so
this ladder was going up to the
00:24:57.76\00:25:01.73
first, second, third, fourth, up
to the seventh heaven. Now the
00:25:01.76\00:25:05.47
seventh heaven is where Allah
dwells. So Angel Gabriel told
00:25:05.50\00:25:11.04
Muhammad, Come with me. And they
climbed to the first heaven.
00:25:11.07\00:25:14.68
It was presided over by one of
the prophets, John the Baptist
00:25:14.71\00:25:20.88
maybe. And then to the next one
and then to the next one. Jesus
00:25:20.92\00:25:26.05
and Moses, ah Enoch, these
names Abraham, Moses, each one
00:25:26.09\00:25:33.80
presiding over a heaven. And
then they came finally to the
00:25:33.83\00:25:37.37
seventh heaven and there Allah
had a conversation with God
00:25:37.40\00:25:41.67
and then he came down that same
night to this earth. So in the
00:25:41.70\00:25:45.24
morning when he told the people
I've been to the seventh heaven
00:25:45.27\00:25:47.98
Wow! That was amazing. You see
in Islamic tradition you cannot
00:25:48.01\00:25:53.95
get anywhere near God.
Allah is transcendent. So if a
00:25:53.98\00:25:58.85
prophet went from here to the
seventh heaven to be with God
00:25:58.89\00:26:02.66
and he came back, that was
amazing. And that is why he is
00:26:02.69\00:26:05.69
called the Seal of the
Prophets. Now in that story is a
00:26:05.73\00:26:09.13
confession that he belongs here
and he went there for a visit.
00:26:09.16\00:26:14.37
Contrast that with Jesus.
He said where Muhammad went to
00:26:14.40\00:26:19.91
heaven, that is my home. I
live there and I came here for a
00:26:19.94\00:26:25.38
visit. And so the origins
and the direction of travel are
00:26:25.41\00:26:30.35
exactly the opposite. Not the
same. Now you tell me who knows
00:26:30.39\00:26:35.92
more about the town where you
live? The person who has lived
00:26:35.96\00:26:38.66
there all his life or me
who might come there for a visit
00:26:38.69\00:26:42.46
for about three or four hours.
Think. The one who lives there
00:26:42.50\00:26:47.14
can tell about that place.
The one who lives in that other
00:26:47.17\00:26:52.71
realm where absolute truth
resides is the one who can come
00:26:52.74\00:26:57.51
down to us and tell us that this
is the truth of the matter. The
00:26:57.55\00:27:02.88
credibility of those words
are amazing. He said I came from
00:27:02.92\00:27:08.86
there. I bring the message not
only in my hands, but I Am the
00:27:08.89\00:27:14.63
message. These words, I Am,
set Jesus completely apart from
00:27:14.66\00:27:20.60
every other claim of every other
founder. Could it still be a
00:27:20.64\00:27:25.81
red marble?
00:27:25.84\00:27:27.98
If you have enjoyed this
presentation with Dr. Subodh
00:27:28.01\00:27:32.01
Pandit and wish to watch more of
this unique 13 part series for
00:27:32.05\00:27:36.55
free online visit the website
GodFactOrFiction.com. That's
00:27:36.58\00:27:42.22
GodFactOrFiction.com. If
you would like to order this
00:27:42.26\00:27:45.89
fascinating series on DVD it is
now available from White Horse
00:27:45.93\00:27:49.53
Media...
00:27:49.56\00:27:57.74
Dr. Subodh Pandit has written
two eye-opening books entitled
00:27:57.77\00:28:01.11
Come Search With Me: Does God
Really Exist? and Come Search
00:28:01.14\00:28:05.51
With Me: The Weight of Evidence
which further explore the topics
00:28:05.55\00:28:08.98
of evolution, theism,
atheism, and religion.
00:28:09.02\00:28:12.99
¤ ¤
00:28:13.02\00:28:23.60