¤ ¤ Subodh K. Pandit, M.D.
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We are now in session seven.
Glad to have you back. Let's
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look at what we've done so far.
We looked first at how we must
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set the premises, become an
inquirer. And then we looked at
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the Theory of Evolution along
with the idea atheism before
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that and when we looked at
that we looked at both sides.
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Whenever there were two theories
we looked at both. We gave both
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sides the same chance to win.
And because of that we can say
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that so far we've done a
very good job of being a neutral
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inquirer. We also now looked
at pluralism which says that all
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the religions lead to the same
final destination. And we looked
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at that, no it didn't pan out
in any of the religious writings
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because each of the religions
claim to be the only way. We
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looked at the logic of that and
found that ultimately there's
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only one that can really be
called legitimately the only way
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We also said that we could not
compare the doctrines, tenents
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of belief, the philosophies. We
had to put something else onto
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them to help us make that choice
And so I said we'd look at the
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stories. We also said that
there's a way in which we would
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look at it and not look for the
superiority but for something
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else, uniqueness. So
let's remind ourselves about the
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marbles. I said if there
was only one correct marble, one
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correct colored marble and I had
four purples, three blues, two
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green and one red marble in my
hand which would be the correct
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colored marble? The red because
that was the only one that was
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red. Similarly now when we look
at the para religious factors
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that's the history part of it,
we are looking for the correct
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colored marble, the red one, the
one that is so different from
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all the others. So now,
we're going to ask the questions
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regarding those factors. Not
the religious beliefs, not the
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doctrines, not those
philosophies but the story and
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those para religious factors.
The first question, we're going
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to ask quite a few as we go
through the next few sessions.
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The first question is what kind
of a writing is that scripture?
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By the way, we are going to look
at five major world religions.
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Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism,
Christianity and Judaism.
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Each of them has a founder
except Hinduism which does not
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have a founder, but all of them
have writings which are called
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the basic writings of that
religion. So the question now is
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what kind of writing is that
scripture? Ancient writing is
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divided into four: Folklore
or folktale, legend, myth or
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or historical. What do we
mean by these words? A folktale:
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There is no attempt to state
a real or true story. The main
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intent is to be interesting and
bring out a lesson or a moral.
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In other words, we know that the
story is not really true and so
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the wind can give you a nice
secret or the sun can smile at
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you or the animals can meet in a
big committee meeting. They know
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it's not true. Yes, making
it up so that they can tell us a
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lesson or a moral from that. So
a folktale, the story itself is
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not true. When it comes to a
legend it is probably based on a
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real, true story. But here's
what makes it a legend. Changes
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come in little by little
until what is ordinary becomes
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extraordinary, what is
human becomes superhuman and as
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changes begin usually
generations after the event when
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there is no longer any
live witnesses to challenge the
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change. Sometimes the time
period for making a legend is
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centuries. It's not right away.
A legend is not made in the same
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generation as the event. Here's
an example of how long it takes.
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This medallion referring to
something that was carved out
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about Gautama Buddha was back
when. This medallion dates back
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certainly to the second century
B.C. If we put the Buddha's
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nirvana, or his death, during
the fifth century B.C. then the
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artist who carved the medallion
must have lived at a time when
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the memory of the Blessed
One was still very fresh in the
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minds of the people. Can you
see the span, 300 years and the
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memory is still fresh. In other
words, you can't make too much
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of a change. And that is why we
say legends are made generations
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after the event and the time
period is at least centuries.
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A myth is so far back in history
that it is generally accepted as
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somebody's imagination. The
story is probably not true, the
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characters are probably
fictitions and they usually
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involve the supernatural world
of gods and goddesses. And here
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the time frame is many centuries
and even millennia. How about
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historical? Here the attempt is
to state the story as it really
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was. No significant additions,
no core changes and we
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specifically use the word core
because all ancient writings
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have changes. The question is
are there peripheral changes or
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are they changes that really
shift the story out from its
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original form? And one more
criterion. The closer to the
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event the writing the better
it is, the more credible it is.
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In fact of all of these
four, folktale, legend, myth,
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historical, the historical
is the best credited piece of
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ancient literature. Now look
at those letters on the screen.
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EV means event. Whenever there's
an unusual event the people make
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it into a story because that's
the only way they can pass it
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from the generation to the next
and from that generation to the
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next. So when it's being passed
it is called oral tradition. So
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from the event we get the
oral tradition. The after a few
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generations said they might
forget some of the details and
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so they agree to write it down.
Somebody writes it down and then
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it becomes a written tradition
- WT. So event to oral tradition
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to written tradition. Now we
do not have any of the original
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manuscripts. All you have are
copies. So now we want to ask
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which is the earliest manuscript
we have, which is the earliest
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copy we have? It's called an
EM. And you also notice a dash
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between those letters. The dash
refers to those gaps. If the
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gaps are really wide then
the credibility of that piece of
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literature goes down. If
the gaps are very close then the
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credibility goes up. So
let's look at now the writings
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themselves of these five great
world religions to see how they
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fare when compared to the
descriptions of these four types
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which we said. Hinduism:
The Rig Veda is the earliest and
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then the anthologies which is
Upanishads. Then the epic, big
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story the Ramayana followed
by the Mahabharata in which is
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found the Bhagavad Gita which
everybody quotes and says that's
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the core of Hindu thought. So
the Bhagavad Gita is basically
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the baby of the traditional
Hindu writings. Look at the
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statement that is in the
Bhagavad Gita: Lord Krishna
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first spoke Bhagavad Vita
to the Sun God some hundreds of
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millions of years ago. There
is no way anybody can check that
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out. The fact is the story says
it was lost to the human race
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and came back again at the
Battle of Kurukshetra at the
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beginning of the present era,
the Hindu era, 3102 B.C. The
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battle also was 5000 years ago.
It is difficult to get back to
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check on the story and that is
why most scholars agree that the
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Hindu story, these big ones like
the Hermine and the Mahabharata
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are actually mythological in
their core quality. And that's
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why the Ultimate Encyclopedia
of Mythology says: "Krishna
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according to Hindu mythology
is an avatar or an incarnate of
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Vishnu the preserver of the
Hindu universe. So the Hindu
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writings basically mythological,
not wrong, you are not
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discrediting them but we
do state they're mythological.
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How about Buddhism? Here are
four statements: "The humanity
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of the Buddha is expressed by a
Theravada monk" A Theravada monk
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who lived at the time of
Gautama Buddha. And he said this
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"Was he not born at Lumbini,...
Did he not complete existence at
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Kusinara?" In other words, he
was born here and he died here
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just like anybody else. Sentence
or statement two: "Soon after
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the passing of the Master,
a change began to set in."
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How about the third sentence?
"At the beginning of the
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Christian era..." Four to Five
hundred years have now gone by.
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"...the transcendental nature"
the superhuman nature of the
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the Buddha "became more and more
pronounced." Little by little,
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more and more. And statement
four: "In one of the most
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important pieces of Mahayana
literature there is not much of
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the man left in the Buddha.
Mahayana Buddhism came onto the
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scene about 700 to 1000
years later. He is now, in this
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Mahayana literature "an
exalted being who has lived for
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countless ages in the past and
will continue to live forever.
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So it was written in the
earliest writings that he was
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just an ordinary person who
was born here and he died here.
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Seven hundred to a thousand
years later, Oh no he was not
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born, he always lived, and he
didn't die, he always will live.
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This change tells us the story
of Gautama Buddha basically is
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legendary. How about Judaism?
Thirty-nine books in the Old
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Testament, 20 authors. These are
the books that the scholars take
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and from there it was pulled out
the Talmud, Torah, the Talmud,
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the main writings of the Judaic
literature. I could not classify
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all of them into a single one,
so I left it unclassified. How
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about Islam. "The Quran was put
together in writing by 652 C.E."
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Common Era, same as A.D.
"within 20 years of Muhammad's
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life. [And] the writing
was confined to one generation.
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But Muhammad did not write it."
He was supposed to be not so
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conversant with writing and
reading. And he is the only one
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who is inspired in Islamic
tradition. Therefore uninspired
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individuals wrote it out. Yeah
they may have got it from him
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but they wrote it out. It
was compiled twice and after the
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second compilation of the Quran
it was done in the Caliphate of
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Uthman. Uthman now the leader
ordered all the manuscripts
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destroyed. So really it's
difficult now to go back to
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to see if the Quran really were
the words of Mohammad because
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the only connection or
one of the big connections is
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manuscripts and the manuscripts
are destroyed. But still what we
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are dealing is the time period
and since it was early written
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compared to the
event, historical. How about
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Christianity? The earliest
manuscript is about 114- 134
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A.D. The original manuscripts
were 20 to 50 years of the life
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of Jesus, confined to one
generation and we do not have
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core changes. But do you
know what the earliest Christian
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writing is? It is not in the
Bible. Eleazar Sukenik Professor
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at the Hebrew University in
Jerusalem found two "ossuaries."
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Ossuaries are the
receptacle pots in which you put
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the dead man's
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bones and then bury the whole
pot. The ossuaries are where the
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earliest Christian writing is
found. They are dated about A.D.
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41, within 10 years of the life
of Jesus. One of the ossuaries
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reads "Jesus God". And another
ossuary said: Jesus ascended One
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Take note, think. It required
Gautama Buddha 700 to 1000 years
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to transform him from a human to
god-like. Here within 10 years
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the whole process has shifted
from event to oral tradition to
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written tradition. Earliest
manuscript in this case is the
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written tradition itself because
those writings were the original
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writings on the ossuaries. Ten
years is actually no time. And
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all the while as God. Nobody
shifted from being human to
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a God in that time. This is the
only writing that has no gap.
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So we can already say
emphatically that no longer any
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solid basis for dating any book
of the New Testament after A.D.
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80. That is Sir William Albright
One of the greatest American
00:14:49.02\00:14:52.29
archeologists. The next
statement is by Nelson Glueck
00:14:52.32\00:14:56.49
a Jewish archeologist,
and he said: It may be stated
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categorically that no
archeological discovery has ever
00:15:01.33\00:15:05.83
controverted a biblical
reference. You have got to say
00:15:05.87\00:15:11.74
Wow! Not a single. Give credit
where credit is due. How about
00:15:11.77\00:15:17.55
one of the greatest
archeologists of all time, the
00:15:17.58\00:15:19.81
British archeologist Sir William
Ramsey. He was doing his work
00:15:19.85\00:15:24.59
in the same time period of the
New Testament or about 100 A.D.
00:15:24.62\00:15:29.62
The first century. In his digs
he came across a situation he
00:15:29.66\00:15:34.10
was not really able to explain.
He looked here and there for an
00:15:34.13\00:15:39.73
explanation, finally found
it in Luke's writing of the New
00:15:39.77\00:15:43.61
Testament. He then went to
his dig and came across another
00:15:43.64\00:15:48.38
perplexing situation and Luke
helped him out. It went on and
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on for 30 years and after 30
years this is what Sir William
00:15:52.31\00:15:55.92
Ramsey said about Luke. "Luke's
history is unsurpassed in
00:15:55.95\00:16:00.59
respect of its trustworthiness."
"This author should be placed
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along with the very greatest
of historians." Not religious
00:16:03.66\00:16:08.33
historians, very greatest
of all the historians that have
00:16:08.36\00:16:11.50
assembled themselves on planet
earth. This is what Norman
00:16:11.53\00:16:16.67
Geisler said: "In all, Luke
names 32 countries, 54 cities
00:16:16.71\00:16:20.88
and nine islands without
[a single] error." Unusual. So
00:16:20.91\00:16:25.65
obviously the New Testament
appears to be historical. So I
00:16:25.68\00:16:29.28
then compared that with other
books, writings, I think that
00:16:29.32\00:16:34.12
everyone acknowledges as
historical from about the same
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time period. These Roman
historians for example Caesar's
00:16:37.46\00:16:42.26
Gallic wars. Herodotus history
and Tacitus annals. Now I want
00:16:42.30\00:16:47.27
you to look at three factors
here. Number one: Time gap.
00:16:47.30\00:16:51.71
Number two: The number of
manuscripts, the back view
00:16:51.74\00:16:56.04
writing and number three: The
proximity of the authors. Where
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were the authors who then wrote
out the stories regarding what
00:17:00.58\00:17:06.09
happened the event. So first the
gaps. Caesar's Gallic Wars was
00:17:06.12\00:17:12.26
written in about 100 B.C. about
then. The earliest manuscript
00:17:12.29\00:17:15.86
is 900 A.D. a gap 1000 years.
Herodotus History a gap of 1300
00:17:15.90\00:17:23.37
years. Tacitus Annals a gap of
1000 years. In other words, no
00:17:23.41\00:17:29.34
historian and any other person
can vouch that anything was
00:17:29.38\00:17:33.42
changed, added, deleted or
modified for 1000 years. And yet
00:17:33.45\00:17:40.76
they call it historical. So the
gap is 1000 years. Here in the
00:17:40.79\00:17:45.96
New Testament the gap is
basically just 20 to 50 years
00:17:45.99\00:17:49.50
and if you look at the ossuary
the gap is less than 10 years.
00:17:49.53\00:17:54.07
So if 1000 years of a gap
is historical we should have no
00:17:54.10\00:17:59.64
problem with 10 years. In fact,
there is no gap at all. High up
00:17:59.67\00:18:04.95
in its credibility. How
about the number of manuscripts?
00:18:04.98\00:18:09.08
Why do we look at the number
of manuscripts? Because if there
00:18:09.12\00:18:14.16
are just two or three, say one
in your house in this town and I
00:18:14.19\00:18:17.99
live in the same town and
one of the manuscripts is in my
00:18:18.03\00:18:20.60
house and one is in the grocery
store and one in that library.
00:18:20.63\00:18:23.60
Then one night a few of us
who don't like what is said the
00:18:23.63\00:18:27.44
third or fourth paragraph on
that page. We don't like it. We
00:18:27.47\00:18:30.61
want to change it. We go to all
the manuscripts and we change it
00:18:30.64\00:18:33.88
In the morning nobody knows
it was changed but it has been
00:18:33.91\00:18:37.25
corrupted because all of them
have been changed the same way.
00:18:37.28\00:18:42.12
There's no way to decide whether
it was corrupted or not. Whereas
00:18:42.15\00:18:48.32
we had say 50 manuscripts, one
here and one there and one in
00:18:48.36\00:18:52.46
this country and one in that
state and one in another town.
00:18:52.49\00:18:55.76
You cannot go to all of them in
a short period of time and make
00:18:55.80\00:18:59.27
the change. While you are making
the change, people will know
00:18:59.30\00:19:02.70
that the change is being
made and they'll go back to the
00:19:02.74\00:19:05.67
search on that and realize it's
been corrupted. But we also know
00:19:05.71\00:19:10.71
the original that has not been
corrupted. In other words, if it
00:19:10.75\00:19:14.98
is a small number, it's possible
that it's corrupted whereas if
00:19:15.02\00:19:20.72
it's a large number then the
charge of corruption goes down.
00:19:20.76\00:19:25.26
Because if they all say the
same thing it is hard to imagine
00:19:25.29\00:19:29.03
anybody going and doing the same
thing in all the records. So the
00:19:29.06\00:19:33.07
number of manuscripts. Caesar's
Gallic War is backed by 10
00:19:33.10\00:19:38.04
manuscripts worldwide. Herodotus
History by eight manuscripts
00:19:38.07\00:19:42.34
worldwide. Tacitus Annals by 20
manuscripts worldwide. The top
00:19:42.38\00:19:48.55
of Greek literature is Homer's
Iliad. Homer's Iliad is backed
00:19:48.58\00:19:54.99
by 643 manuscripts. You can
almost say wow because these
00:19:55.02\00:20:00.36
numbers are so small, eight and
20 and that Homer's Iliad is 643
00:20:00.40\00:20:04.47
Now suppose I tell you that the
New Testament is backed by 686
00:20:04.50\00:20:13.38
manuscripts. Would you
give credit where credit is due?
00:20:13.41\00:20:18.75
I hope you would. But really
what is the number? You know
00:20:18.78\00:20:24.82
the New Testament is backed
by 5686 manuscripts and they're
00:20:24.85\00:20:33.09
just the Greek manuscripts.
If you add the Armenian and the
00:20:33.13\00:20:38.50
Arabic and the Egyptian which is
the Coptic and all the rest of
00:20:38.53\00:20:43.71
them put together you know how
many manuscripts back the New
00:20:43.74\00:20:47.64
Testament? 24,900. Look at the
number. Look at 10 and 20. And
00:20:47.68\00:20:58.05
look at 24,900. So in that
factor to the New Testament
00:20:58.09\00:21:04.83
really is amazing. Impressive.
How about where the authors
00:21:04.86\00:21:13.17
were? Where were these authors?
Were they close by or were they
00:21:13.20\00:21:17.61
distant? Distant maybe
geographical location, maybe on
00:21:17.64\00:21:20.98
the next continent. Well then
the credibility goes down a bit.
00:21:21.01\00:21:24.05
Maybe they were separated
by a few generations. Again the
00:21:24.08\00:21:27.28
credibility will go down,
whereas if they were close
00:21:27.32\00:21:30.82
by credibility rises. Now if
you look at all the historical
00:21:30.85\00:21:35.52
writings of that day there is
hardly any writing in which the
00:21:35.56\00:21:41.70
author was very, very close
to the event. But look at these
00:21:41.73\00:21:47.40
statements of the authors of the
New Testament. Peter who was an
00:21:47.44\00:21:52.94
author, he said: "We did
not follow fables...but were eye
00:21:52.97\00:21:58.58
witnesses." They were right
there. Same as John. In the next
00:21:58.61\00:22:03.92
statement John says that "From
that hour that disciple [meaning
00:22:03.95\00:22:07.72
himself, John] took her [meaning
Mary] to his own home." So John
00:22:07.76\00:22:13.43
is writing about himself. How
about Luke? He says: "When we
00:22:13.46\00:22:19.10
sailed over the sea...when we
came to Myra." He's right there.
00:22:19.13\00:22:24.11
So are these authors far away or
close by? They're not just close
00:22:24.14\00:22:32.15
by, they are part of the story.
And you cannot get any closer
00:22:32.18\00:22:36.48
than inside. Can you see the
credibility then of this piece
00:22:36.52\00:22:41.62
of literature? Therefore, "in
real terms," says Ravi Zacharias
00:22:41.66\00:22:45.83
"the New Testament is
easily the best attested ancient
00:22:45.86\00:22:48.93
writing in terms
00:22:48.96\00:22:51.03
of the sheer number of documents
the time span between the events
00:22:51.07\00:22:55.60
and the document, and the
variety of documents available
00:22:55.64\00:22:59.17
to sustain or contradict
it. There is nothing in ancient
00:22:59.21\00:23:03.04
manuscript evidence to match
such textual availability and
00:23:03.08\00:23:08.12
integrity." How about the
statement by Sir Frederic Kenyon
00:23:08.15\00:23:12.25
He looked at all of these
factors again just like we did
00:23:12.29\00:23:15.22
now and this is what he
said: "No other ancient book has
00:23:15.26\00:23:20.20
anything like such early and
plentiful testimony to its text,
00:23:20.23\00:23:24.30
and no unbiased scholar would
deny that the text that has come
00:23:24.33\00:23:29.00
down to us is substantially
sound." Now that is saying
00:23:29.04\00:23:34.08
something, isn't it? And here's
a statement by F.J.A. Hort: "In
00:23:34.11\00:23:40.55
the variety and fullness of the
evidence on which it rests the
00:23:40.58\00:23:43.22
text of the New Testament stands
absolutely and unapproachably
00:23:43.25\00:23:49.02
alone among ancient prose
writings." Not ancient prose
00:23:49.06\00:23:55.50
religious writings. Among all
ancient writings. In other words
00:23:55.53\00:24:01.47
look at the unstructured
writings of the Mayans and the
00:24:01.50\00:24:06.27
Sumerians and the somewhat
structured writings of the
00:24:06.31\00:24:10.28
Egyptians and the Assyrians
and the Babylonians and then the
00:24:10.31\00:24:15.12
more structured writings of the
Chinese and the Indian and the
00:24:15.15\00:24:19.45
Greek and the Roman. And you put
them all on a table at a level
00:24:19.49\00:24:24.93
plain. This New Testament will
rise up as the best attested
00:24:24.96\00:24:31.53
historical piece of literature
in the world based on the
00:24:31.57\00:24:37.17
features of that which makes
it historical. And historical
00:24:37.21\00:24:42.08
increased credibility. That is
what we are looking at. So some
00:24:42.11\00:24:47.05
people say Oh I don't think that
I can agree to what you think it
00:24:47.08\00:24:51.62
said there because it sounds
mythological. Yes it does. But
00:24:51.65\00:24:55.82
the features of the writing
are clearly historical. In other
00:24:55.86\00:25:00.83
words, its historicity is so
strong that this is what John
00:25:00.86\00:25:06.74
Warwick Montgomery said: "To be
skeptical of the resultant text
00:25:06.77\00:25:12.77
of the New Testament books is to
allow all of classical antiquity
00:25:12.81\00:25:16.78
to slip into obscurity, for no
documents of the ancient period
00:25:16.81\00:25:21.58
are as well attested
bibliographically as the
00:25:21.62\00:25:25.69
New Testament." Do you know the
import of those words? In other
00:25:25.72\00:25:31.43
words this is what he's saying:
If you look at the New Testament
00:25:31.46\00:25:34.76
and say I'm not sure if I would
like it. I want set it aside and
00:25:34.80\00:25:39.40
you do set it aside then you
will have to set aside all the
00:25:39.43\00:25:44.64
other historical writings of
that ancient period because all
00:25:44.67\00:25:48.84
of the others do not match the
credibility of the New Testament
00:25:48.88\00:25:52.81
This has the highest credibility
So if we discard it well then
00:25:52.85\00:25:59.49
you'll not be able to
talk about the Pharaohs or the
00:25:59.52\00:26:02.26
Chinese dynasty or Babylon or
Cyrus the Great or Alexander the
00:26:02.29\00:26:06.70
Great or Caesar Augustus or
Julius Caesar or any one of them
00:26:06.73\00:26:10.67
All of them have to be shifted
off into obscurity. This seems
00:26:10.70\00:26:15.97
to be the standard. Now it's
amazing because it's a religious
00:26:16.00\00:26:22.78
writing and people sometimes
differentiate between religious
00:26:22.81\00:26:27.02
writing and a secular history.
They call it religious history
00:26:27.05\00:26:31.49
and secular history. But friend
actually there is no difference
00:26:31.52\00:26:37.29
between religious history
and secular history. If it is
00:26:37.33\00:26:41.36
historical it just
stays historical. There is no
00:26:41.40\00:26:44.67
difference between those two
categories. Look at what you see
00:26:44.70\00:26:48.77
and look at the factor that we
have placed into consideration.
00:26:48.80\00:26:53.27
We've looked at not just one,
two, three, four, five factors
00:26:53.31\00:26:57.81
and when you look at all of
them compared all the religious
00:26:57.85\00:27:02.82
writings, the New Testament
is not just historical, solidly,
00:27:02.85\00:27:08.12
but the best attested historical
piece of literature in the world
00:27:08.16\00:27:13.33
Do you think it is like unique?
Like it is colored red? So while
00:27:13.36\00:27:20.77
the Quran and the New Testament
are historical in nature
00:27:20.80\00:27:23.47
according to criteria we applied
the New Testament clearly has
00:27:23.51\00:27:28.38
the highest credibility
and integrity of text.
00:27:28.41\00:27:31.41
Probably a red marble?
00:27:31.45\00:27:35.15
If you have enjoyed this
presentation with Dr. Subodh
00:27:35.18\00:27:38.49
Pandit and wish to watch more of
this unique 13 part series for
00:27:38.52\00:27:43.02
free online, visit the website
GodFactOrFiction.com. That's
00:27:43.06\00:27:48.90
GodFactOrFiction.com. If
you would like to order this
00:27:48.93\00:27:52.77
fascinating series on DVD it is
now available from White Horse
00:27:52.80\00:27:56.44
Media...
00:27:56.47\00:28:03.55
Dr. Subodh Pandit has written
two eye-opening books entitled
00:28:03.58\00:28:07.25
Come Search With Me: Does God
Really Exist? and Come Search
00:28:07.28\00:28:11.32
With Me: The Weight of Evidence
which further explore the topics
00:28:11.35\00:28:14.86
of evolution,
theism, atheism and religion.
00:28:14.89\00:28:18.53
¤ ¤
00:28:18.56\00:28:28.44