¤ ¤ Subodh K. Pandit, M.D.
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Welcome, again. Now we have
come to the second session and
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remember what we have said we
will do? We'll do a Pan Process.
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But you know before we get
to the Pan Process there's one
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concept we need to address. It
is a very common response to the
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question does God exist and
it is called agnosticism. Now to
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the question does God exist the
obvious answers are yes and no.
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So is there a real true
clear option called agnosticism?
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Let's look at the word
first. What do you mean? A means
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without. Gnosis means without
knowledge. So when applied to
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our discussion it means an
inability to make a decision
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because the information
and the knowledge is simply not
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sufficient. This is the
most honest response to this big
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question and you know it also
has a mathematical base? The
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Austrian mathematician Kurt
Godel described what he called
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the Incompleteness Theorem.
The Incompleteness Theorem says
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if you are ever going to call
a theory as the truth of the
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matter then you should
have in your hand every piece of
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applicable information that can
be considered for that theory.
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Unless you know all of the
pieces of information that apply
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you cannot call it the truth of
the matter. Now you and I will
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easily confess that nobody
on earth has all the information
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related to the existence of
God. So everyone, you and I, and
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everyone else is by mathematical
certainty an agnostic. However,
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some people say they are
believers and the others say
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they are atheists. We just said
that everyone is an agnostic.
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So when you put all those
two together, all the factors
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together you come across a very
interesting situation in which
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there are six options. I'm going
to put them on the screen and
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we'll look at them. Do you
notice something, 1,2,3,4,5,6.
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All of them are agnostics.
Agnostic one if you look at the
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description is convinced that
God exists and he lives as if he
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exists. He's a believer.
Number two is an agnostic who is
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convinced God does not exist and
lives as if he does not exist.
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He's an atheist, a disbeliever.
The rest of the four are
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agnostics. So when we look
at those of first of all of them
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are agnostics but there are some
words in italics lives as if,
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I want you to follow as we read
lives as if. Agnostic number one
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lives as if God exists. Agnostic
number two lives as if God does
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not exist. Agnostic number three
lives as if God exists. Agnostic
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number four lives as if God does
not exist. Agnostic number five
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lives as if God exists and
agnostic number six lives as if
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God exists. Do you
notice something? They're all
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agnostics, that's number one.
Number two: There are actually
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only two ways to live We live an
agnostic lives as if God exists
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or as if God does not exist.
That is because they are the
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only two true practical options.
Agnosticism by itself only a
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theoretical position only
on paper. Consider this now.
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These two options we have, God
exists, God does not exist, they
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are so far apart, so distinct,
that we cannot bring them
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together by any means possible.
Now when that happens there are
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three principles that apply here
Principle number one: These two
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are mutually exclusive. What do
we mean by that? It means that
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if you are on this side you
definitely are not on this side.
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If you are on this side you are
not on this side. In other words
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both of them cannot be correct.
One or the other. Principle
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number two that fits in
is that these two are jointly
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exhaustive. Meaning
those who exhaust all the
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possibilities that one can
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think of, there is
nothing else. Jointly, together,
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they exhaust all
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the possibilities. Therefore,
both cannot be wrong. So now
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if both of them cannot be
correct, if both cannot be wrong
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then the third option comes in,
the third principle comes in.
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And it's called the principle
of the excluded middle. In other
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words you cannot take some from
here and some from there and
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form a third option. It's an
excluded middle. In other words,
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the middle ground called
agnosticism is actually not a
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true option. It is the most
honest answer and we recognize
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that. Hey, nobody gets any marks
in school for a true and false
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question to which the student
writes I don't know. If you say
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I don't know you don't get any
mark. The options are only true
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or false. Similarly here the
question is does God exist. The
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only two answers can possibly
be yes he does or no he doesn't.
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You say I can't make an answer
is to confess that you don't
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have an answer. Therefore,
agnosticism is really not an
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answer to the question. So it's
a startling realization that a
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middle ground is not clear.
Therefore, agnosticism, while it
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is a most common response,
is totally impractical in life.
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An agnostic believer then
lives as if God exists as it is.
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An agnostic disbeliever lives as
an atheist, as if God does not
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exist. In other words, nobody
can live as an agnostic, a pure,
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unqualified agnostic. Now
that we have set the question of
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agnosticism aside we then turn
our attention to the big and
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the truly controversial debate.
Does God exist or does he not
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exist. I call it the Great
Divide. A. We saw that. God
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nonexistent, fictitious. B. The
believing side, God in existence
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and factual. We'll repeat the
challenge. We should not only
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fair and balanced in our
assessment but we should make a
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deliberate attempt to show that
we are being evenhanded and fair
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We give both sides the same
chance to win. Only then can we
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be sure that the real winner has
won. And we said earlier that
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one way to do this is to
implement the Pan Process
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and that's what we're going to
do now. We'll start it off with
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the Pan Process, a pro and a
con from each side. Column one:
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Arguments for A. Let's start
there. Arguments for atheism.
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None. Wow! Doesn't that sound
amazing, startling. You know
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why? Because the only
proof of atheism is this proof
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of theism.
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So that belongs to the second
column. So there's nothing in
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this column. That's number one.
Number two reason. Why we say
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there are no arguments is
that this statement is in the
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negative. It's a negative
statement: God does not exist.
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God is nonexistent. A negative
statement is valid and can be
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accepted only when all
the possibilities have been
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exhausted. For example, if
I claim that my dad was not at
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home and our house has 20 rooms
how many rooms should I have
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inspected before making a true
and legitimate claim that my dad
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is not at home. All 20. If I
left out even one room I could
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not make a legitimate claim that
my dad was not at home. So in
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other words, to say that
somebody is not here you should
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look at all the possibilities
and exhaust them. Now apply
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this to our question. Look,
if God is existence he has to be
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somewhere. We can't say he's
nowhere. If he is nowhere he is
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nonexistent. So he's got to be
somewhere. Honestly do you know
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honestly do you know every
corner of your town, of your
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state, the whole world? How
about the moon? How about the
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sun? The sun is ony one star
in our Milky Way galaxy. Do you
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know how many stars there are?
Two hundred billion stars in our
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Milky Way galaxy. How about
the number of galaxies? The
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astronomers have guestimated
that there are about 600 Billion
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with a B galaxies in the known
universe. Think? So how many
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places have you really been to
to come back here and say, Well
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we've checked it all out.
He's not anywhere. Doesn't that
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really sound incredible,
difficult to believe. On the
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other hand, God could
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possibly move about, because
if we can move why can't he?
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So if we went looking for him in
the kitchen, he could have gone
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to the living room. So what are
we saying? We are saying that to
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make a real credible claim that
God is not anywhere we should
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not only know every nook and
cranny of the universe, but we
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should know them at the same
time. Then it is legitimate.
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Now those attributes of being
everywhere is called omnipresent
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and knowing every bit of the
universe is called omnicient.
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Those are the attributes of God.
So to say that there is no God
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you have to have the
attributes of God, but that is
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contradictory can you
see, or maybe you have become
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a god yourself.
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If you become a god yourself you
can't say there is no god. So
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there are no arguments in
this column. What grade would
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you give it. Let's
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grade every column and then
we'll put the grades together at
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the end. I gave it a zero to one
I gave it a one. That's column
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one. Arguments for atheism
one mark. I'm okay. How about
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column two? Arguments against
the claim that there's a God.
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There are a few. I'm going to
pick out one which appears to be
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quite a strong big one. It is
the argument that if there is a
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loving, all loving, almighty
God then how can that be squared
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with all the pain and suffering
and evil there is in the world
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that we experience every day?
There's a severe contradiction
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and that is the argument.
There's a severe contradiction.
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All loving, almighty, pain and
suffering. Mm-muh. Do you know
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Epicurus was a Greek philosopher
back in the third and fourth
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century B.C., he said these
words: Either he (God) is not
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good, or else he is not almighty
Can't be both. And David Hume
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a later philosopher, a brilliant
thinker, he emphasized that even
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more. His words: Is he (God)
willing to prevent evil, but not
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able? Then he is impotent. Is he
able, but not willing? Then he
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is malevolent (he is just bad
evil heart). Is he both able and
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willing? Whence then is evil?
And Stendhal another philosopher
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said, God's only excuse is that
he does not exist. And those who
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have looked at these arguments
here's what they say. Wenham
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said, Evil constitutes
the biggest single argument.
00:15:15.48\00:15:18.68
Ed Miller said, the biggest
single stumbling block and James
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Orr said, It is one of the
most crucial protests raised by
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unbelievers against the fact of
God. Now those are strong. What
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would you grade it? I graded
this argument as seven out of
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ten. But then I looked again.
Is this argument against the
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existence of God or is this an
argument against the type of God
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that he is. So look at it a
little closer. Is it truly the
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biggest single argument, is
it the most crucial argument
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against the existence of
God? I look at it in a few ways.
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Here it is. I found
that everyone is upset
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about this question of
evil/ pain and suffering.
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In fact those who believe
that God exists also have
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agreed there is horrible pain
and suffering. And despite the
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pain and suffering they believe
God exists. Therefore, just the
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existence of pain and suffering
cannot be the deciding factor.
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Number two: A contradiction in
features like we are describing
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is not proof of nonexistence.
You know, if you take a metal
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rod it can be both hot and cold
at the same time. One end could
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be sticking into a block of ice
and the other could be over fire
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So the same rod, cold
and hot. What are we saying?
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Contradictions require solutions
and explanations. They do not
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give us the license to discard
and dissolve the whole entity.
00:17:05.69\00:17:09.86
Number three: Contradictions
that we describe now is caused
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by supernatural features.
Almighty, all loving. Which
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human is almighty. No human is
ever almighty. It is God who is
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almighty and all loving.
So think. We are looking at
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supernatural characteristics,
almighty and all loving. So if
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those supernatural
characteristics are there, then
God exists. In other
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words, if there is a
contradiction then God exists
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who caused that contradiction
by his attributes. You can't use
00:17:48.90\00:17:53.97
the features and attributes of
God to disprove his existence.
00:17:54.00\00:18:00.24
That would be false reasoning.
So we have a choice. Keep the
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contradiction, keep God. Do away
with the contradiction and the
00:18:05.31\00:18:11.12
argument dies. Number four: We
do not suffer 24/7. We also have
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wonderful things on the other
side of the spectrum. Joys,
00:18:20.13\00:18:22.53
pleasures, wonderful life. Then
those are in line with a God who
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is almighty and all loving.
So really if absence of God is
00:18:30.07\00:18:35.54
based on pain and suffering
well then if there are joys and
00:18:35.58\00:18:40.72
pleasures God exists so both
the arguments... Remember we are
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inquirers who look at both. So
in other words, when we look at
00:18:45.39\00:18:48.99
both sides, pain and suffering,
joys and pleasures they cancel
00:18:49.02\00:18:52.39
out each other. But really if
evidence for the absence of an
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entity as well as evidence
for the presence of an entity is
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found in the same place then
that entity is present. Example:
00:19:03.37\00:19:07.94
Suppose we're at sea looking for
land and we have a 360 degree
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view on this. And we say that
if we see a puff of smoke in a
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certain shape that could
be evidence for land. For 369
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degrees we do not see that. But
at the 360th degree we do see
00:19:24.36\00:19:30.40
that puff of smoke, shaped
like that. Evidence of land.
00:19:30.43\00:19:36.27
So is there land looking around?
Yes there is. What happened to
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the 359 degrees in which there
was no land? Well here's the
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dictum. One piece of evidence
for presence will outweigh all
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the evidence for the absence.
So if evil and suffering denote
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the absence of God as well as
joys and pleasures which would
00:19:57.26\00:20:01.83
denote the presence of God both
are present in our lives, then
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God exists and He is a present
here. So the question of evil
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pain and suffering drawn to
its logical conclusion does not
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support the atheistic side
00:20:16.68\00:20:18.01
but places the
argument on the side of
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theism on the side that there is
a God. So one of the strongest
00:20:21.12\00:20:24.32
arguments against existence
of God actually points to the
00:20:24.35\00:20:28.22
existence of God. So the mark
that we gave, seven out of ten,
00:20:28.26\00:20:32.36
now has to be shifted out from
this column to the next column
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for all theism.
How about column three:
00:20:36.60\00:20:41.00
Arguments for theism.
00:20:41.04\00:20:44.24
There are a few. We'll look
at one of them. It's called a
00:20:44.27\00:20:47.68
logical analysis. Logic requires
two steps to be credible. Number
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one: It must have a base
statement that everyone agrees
00:20:53.31\00:20:57.35
to. You cannot start a logical
discourse with a statement that
00:20:57.39\00:21:02.82
is itself controversial. So a
base statement everyone agrees
00:21:02.86\00:21:06.90
to and on that statement we base
our steps of reasoning. That is
00:21:06.93\00:21:11.60
logic. So we look at four
logical analyses. Number one:
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Logic Analysis number one
called the Kalam Cosmological
00:21:16.81\00:21:20.31
Argument: All changes have
causes and the clearest changes
00:21:20.34\00:21:25.51
are starting and stopping. So
whatever begins or starts has to
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have a cause. The universe had a
start established scientifically
00:21:31.92\00:21:38.33
now, 13.72 billion years ago.
and therefore the universe must
00:21:38.36\00:21:43.60
have a cause. It did not
come about by itself. Logical
00:21:43.63\00:21:48.40
analysis number two: It's called
the Pan Cosmological Argument.
00:21:48.44\00:21:51.87
No effect or product causes
itself. Nobody says that this
00:21:51.91\00:21:56.85
pointer is the cause of the
pointer itself. Nor do we say
00:21:56.88\00:22:00.65
that the metal or the plastic
is the cause of the pointer.
00:22:00.68\00:22:03.72
You could say that the
manufacturer is the cause of the
00:22:03.75\00:22:07.46
pointer. But as soon as you
say that you will agree that the
00:22:07.49\00:22:11.59
manufacturer is distinct from
the product. So the cause is
00:22:11.63\00:22:18.30
always distinct, separate.
The cause then of this universe
00:22:18.33\00:22:23.71
which they say is made up of
matter, energy, time and space.
00:22:23.74\00:22:28.48
It has to be separate. In other
words, we can't appeal to matter
00:22:28.51\00:22:32.55
energy, time and space to be the
cause of matter, energy, time
00:22:32.58\00:22:38.02
and space. The cause has to be
distinct and separate. How about
00:22:38.05\00:22:46.59
logical analysis number three:
It's call Order Principle of
00:22:46.63\00:22:51.37
Science and Chronology.
Chronology means in relationship
00:22:51.40\00:22:55.87
to time, which comes first and
which comes second. All causes
00:22:55.90\00:23:00.68
produce effects. All effects
have a cause and the cause
00:23:00.71\00:23:06.85
always precedes the effect.
So if the effect and the product
00:23:06.88\00:23:12.05
is the entire universe then the
cause of the universe preceded
00:23:12.09\00:23:16.96
the universe. Logical Analysis
Number four: The Order Principle
00:23:16.99\00:23:23.43
of Science Number Two: This time
it's not which came first or
00:23:23.47\00:23:27.27
second. This time which is
bigger and which is smaller.
00:23:27.30\00:23:29.80
A specific corollary of the
order principle is the law that
00:23:29.84\00:23:34.48
no effect can be quantitatively
greater or qualitatively
00:23:34.51\00:23:38.21
superior to its cause. In
other words the cause is always
00:23:38.25\00:23:41.65
greater that its affect. Now
let's look around to see what we
00:23:41.68\00:23:46.25
have. The world has: Life,
Thinking, Matter, Energy, Time,
00:23:46.29\00:23:50.43
Space, the Laws of Nature. So
the cause of all of these would
00:23:50.46\00:23:56.50
have to have abundance of life,
A giant intellect, huge amount
00:23:56.53\00:24:01.70
of power, massive power, full
control of all the universe,
00:24:01.74\00:24:06.68
able to harmonize all the laws.
Let's look at just two of those:
00:24:06.71\00:24:09.94
Intellect and power. Here are
the words of Albert Einstein:
00:24:09.98\00:24:15.28
His feelings take the form
of rapturous amazement at the
00:24:15.32\00:24:19.15
harmony of natural law, which
reveals an intelligence of such
00:24:19.19\00:24:24.23
superiority, that compared with
it, all the systematic thinking
00:24:24.26\00:24:28.13
and acting of human beings is an
utterly insignificant reflection
00:24:28.16\00:24:32.60
In another place he called
it an infinitely superior mind.
00:24:32.63\00:24:36.74
Infinitely superior mind? It
could be omniscience. How about
00:24:36.77\00:24:45.15
power? Do you know a penny, if
it is completely converted into
00:24:45.18\00:24:51.62
energy would provide the full
energy of the atomic bomb that
00:24:51.65\00:24:58.39
was blasted over Hiroshima.
Imagine one penny if you convert
00:24:58.43\00:25:04.57
it completely into energy would
be that much energy. What if we
00:25:04.60\00:25:09.04
converted this whole room
into energy. Wow! What if we
00:25:09.07\00:25:13.81
converted all the stars.
Two hundred billion stars in our
00:25:13.84\00:25:18.55
Milky Way galaxy. Six hundred
galaxies, about a hundred
00:25:18.58\00:25:26.09
billion stars each. Woo!
And that is only less than ten
00:25:26.12\00:25:32.66
percent of the
00:25:32.69\00:25:34.03
total mass. The rest is dark
energy, dark matter which we
00:25:34.06\00:25:38.33
can't even see. So the enormous
amount of energy required to
00:25:38.37\00:25:43.81
produce such a stupendous
quantity of mass is mind bending
00:25:43.84\00:25:47.38
The clear conclusion of that
is that this cause may be called
00:25:47.41\00:25:52.08
infinite or omnipotent. So
Aristotle, father of modern day
00:25:52.11\00:25:58.29
logic who said: That the cause
of this universe or the cause of
00:25:58.32\00:26:03.93
the world has to have theistic
like omnipotence and omniscience
00:26:03.96\00:26:08.03
See those bolded letters
and bolded words. So what's the
00:26:08.06\00:26:11.33
conclusion of the logical
analysis? Four points: The
00:26:11.37\00:26:16.37
universe has a cause. The cause
is separate and distinct from
00:26:16.40\00:26:21.21
the universe. The cause preceded
the universe and the cause could
00:26:21.24\00:26:27.25
possibly be called omnipotent
and omniscient. This cause then
00:26:27.28\00:26:35.02
could be reasonably called
God because he has all those
00:26:35.06\00:26:40.16
qualities. Think now of what
we've just said. This conclusion
00:26:40.20\00:26:46.33
was reached by evidence and
logic alone, without a single
00:26:46.37\00:26:51.71
reference to any religious
writer or founder. Are you
00:26:51.74\00:26:56.91
willling to say Wow! What grade
would you give it? I gave it
00:26:56.95\00:27:02.48
an eight out of ten because the
arguments really now you will
00:27:02.52\00:27:08.99
agree tend to be strong. We've
done three of the four columns.
00:27:09.02\00:27:14.53
We will do the fourth in the
next session. So don't go away.
00:27:14.56\00:27:18.10
Come back and we'll do
session number three of
00:27:18.13\00:27:22.50
God Fact or Fiction
00:27:22.54\00:27:24.24
If you have enjoyed this
presentation with Dr. Subodh
00:27:24.27\00:27:28.58
Pandit and wish to watch more of
this unique 13 part series for
00:27:28.61\00:27:32.58
free online visit the website
GodFactOrFiction.com. That's
00:27:32.61\00:27:38.49
GodFactOrFiction.com. If
you would like to order this
00:27:38.52\00:27:42.29
fascinating series on DVD it is
now available from White Horse
00:27:42.32\00:27:46.29
Media:...
00:27:46.33\00:27:52.00
Dr. Subodh Pandit has written
two eyeopening books entitled
00:27:52.03\00:27:57.17
Come Search With Me: Does God
Really Exist? and Come Search
00:27:57.21\00:28:01.71
With Me: The Weight of Evidence
which further explore the topics
00:28:01.74\00:28:05.18
of evolution,
theism, atheism and religion.
00:28:05.21\00:28:08.65
To order...
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00:28:26.10\00:28:27.44