Welcome back to our
series, Evolution Impossible,
00:00:36.63\00:00:39.63
where we are currently exploring
whether the fossil record
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supports evolution.
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My name is Dr. Sven  string,
and we're privileged to have
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Dr. John Aston joining us again.
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Thanks for being here.
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And we also have
Justin Torossian.
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Good to have you here.
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My good friend, Morgan Vincent,
and also Stephen Aveling-Rowe.
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We love hearing
your infectious laugh.
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You know, it's an
all male team, guys.
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But that's fine.
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One of the things
that we have in evolution
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is that there is a
fairly smooth transition
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from species of
an animal to another.
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So there should have
been a whole lot of animals
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in between fish and reptiles,
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and in the same way
between dinosaurs and birds.
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This means that there should
have been a lot of fossils
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of these intermediate animals.
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The question is, do
these fossils exist?
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It feels a little bit
like a detective story,
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looking for the
links in the chain.
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So, John, going back
to our previous episode,
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we had a question
about uniformitarianism.
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It's a long word.
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But, can you share with
us, what is that concept?
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And how does it
apply to geology,
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and also fossils as well?
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Okay, so the concept
of uniformitarianism,
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I think I mentioned briefly,
was proposed by James Hutton
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in one of his books
that he wrote about 1785.
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And the idea was that
the processes on earth
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had been going on
much as they are today,
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but for millions of years.
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And so, we get these
gradual changes over time.
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You know, boulders are rounded
over time by wind action,
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there's wave
action eroding rocks.
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And so, by
studying what happens today,
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we can assume that essentially
happened over the past.
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Now, one of the reasons why
this is very important is that
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evolution requires
a lot of generations
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to produce all
these supposed mutations
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to evolve new creatures.
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So they need
long periods of time.
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And therefore, the Bible's short
time frame didn't fit that.
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So they needed
very, very long times
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for evolution to fit;
the evolutionary model.
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And John, one of the
questions I have is that,
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obviously scientists recognize
there are extinction events.
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Meteorites, you know,
being crashed into the earth,
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and things like that.
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So you've got
these catastrophes and
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you've got these
uniformitarian processes.
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So how do they decide
whether it's a catastrophe
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or a uniformitarian
process which is actually
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generating this
geological feature?
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Well okay, that's an
interesting question.
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I mean, we've got the layer
of particular mineralization
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associated with the
extinction of the dinosaurs
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at the end of the Cretaceous,
and this sort of thing.
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One of the theories for
that is that it was a meteorite
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impact, and so forth.
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But the thing is, we actually
don't know the mechanism.
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Where did the meteorite land?
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You know, there's so many...
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Anybody can put up
all sorts of theories.
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But what does
the evidence tell us?
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The evidence tells us that
there was a massive water-based
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catastrophic event that
eliminated and buried the
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animals, you know, as
opposed to all these...
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You know, we can all sit
around the fire and come up with
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fanciful events,
and a meteorite hitting,
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and tidal waves, and
all this sort of thing.
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And it's true, there
are catastrophic events.
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And we can probably
discuss that in more detail.
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~ Sure.
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And one of the things
which really interests people
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is dinosaurs.
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And it's a fascinating topic.
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And I know Justin,
you actually had a real
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interest in this topic as well.
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So did you have a
question on that for John?
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Yeah, I did.
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In chapter 5, the last chapter,
but it ties into this one
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because of the fossil
record, you bring up how
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Dr. Mary Schweitzer and
her team discovered a T-Rex
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with soft tissue in it.
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And you listed a number of
others that I hadn't heard.
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And my question is, I first read
an article by Mary Schweitzer
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about their
discover a few years ago,
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and she said that when
they realized that this was
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a not fully fossilized T-Rex,
she said, "I just got chills,
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because we all know
these things don't last
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for millions of years."
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And so, considering these
things are not really trumpeted
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and most people
don't know about them,
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but at the same time
they're not hidden and buried,
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what is the scientific
community doing with this?
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And Schweitzer and her
team, and others, what do they,
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what do they believe about it,
since it's not something that
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last for millions of years?
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Right, well it's very
interesting, when we study
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the chemistry of
these biopolymer molecules,
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these long chain molecules
that are associated with the
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soft tissue remains
that they discovered there,
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we've done experiments
at different temperatures
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and we know how
quickly they would break down.
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For example, DNA, if it's
stored at about 20 degrees,
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for example, they wouldn't last
only a short period of time.
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If it was only 10 degrees,
the average temperature,
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it might last a few
thousand years longer,
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and this sort of thing.
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So the fact that we find
these long polymer molecules
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seriously
challenges the long age dates,
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for the dinosaurs for example.
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And we find soft
tissues in other things.
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They've extracted DNA from
leaves and other things as well.
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But one of the issues
that they're facing now is,
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well okay, under the conditions
that they were buried,
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somehow they were preserved.
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You know, so really it
defies our current biochemical
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understanding of the
stability of these molecules
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as studied by chemists.
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So the chemists say,
"Well hang on, those molecules
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can't last that long."
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The geologists, if they
cling to their long ages,
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they say, "Well they must have.
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So there must be some
other mechanism that has
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help preserve them
that we don't know.
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Maybe there's
some iron there, or..."
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You know, they're
putting forward all sorts of
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suggestions that maybe there's
some preservation mechanism.
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But really, they have
found so many different
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types of soft tissue
now in the dinosaur remains
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that really these other
attempts to come up with
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preservation mechanisms
just don't fit known chemistry.
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So the bottom line is,
it's pointing that they can't
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be millions of years old.
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They must be only thousands
of years old to make sense.
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So John, part of what
happens in evolutionary science,
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it sounds to me like if
you come across some phenomena,
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then evolutionary science is
just looking for an explanation
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which could confirm
evolution rather than
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necessarily trying to
find what actually happened.
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Is that what happens, you
know, in terms of this real push
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towards evolutionary
explanations that are going on?
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Oh, definitely.
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I mean, because this is the
dominant paradigm in science.
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And so, that's what
everybody is looking for.
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In fact, there is no
other paradigm other than
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God and creation.
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And you're not going
to publish a scientific
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paper that goes there.
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It just won't get
published, unfortunately.
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So that's the issue.
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They force you into
that particular square.
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Which is really sad that
they attempt to hold onto this
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when the evidence is
overwhelmingly pointing in the
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direction that evolution is
no only absolutely impossible,
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but never happened as well.
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But again, more and more
scientists, particularly older
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scientists that aren't
worried about losing their jobs,
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are saying, "Well hang on,
let's look at it realistically.
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The evidence isn't there."
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And one of the key factors
is, as you mentioned earlier,
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the absence of intermediate
species in the fossil record.
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This is very, very significant.
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So tell us, in terms of
these transitional fossils,
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we also come across
the term, genetic drift.
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So, can you
explain what that term
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really means; genetic drift?
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Yeah sure, okay.
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So, as the
different organisms evolved,
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this is the standard
mechanism of trying to explain
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how new body parts
could form, you see.
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So they're saying, well
assuming that enough genes
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are transferred, then we
can get sufficient changes
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to make some new
sort of organism.
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The whole problem
with that theory...
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And people talk about, "Oh,
it's genetic drift, you know.
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And we can see
this movement of genes,
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and all these new
creatures formed."
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But essentially, it's
like I mentioned previously,
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if we try to simplify it
down so that we can understand,
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if we have the code, f-i-n,
which we interpret as fin,
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we have to make
that into an a-r-m.
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No genetic drift.
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As many times as you
reproduce the word, f-i-n,
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like n-i-f, i-f-n, all
the different combinations,
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you're never going
to end up with a-r-m.
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No way.
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It's totally new code.
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And that's what they miss.
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They miss the fact that,
for all these new developments,
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you need totally new code.
00:10:03.30\00:10:05.33
This genetic drift
concept, what they're hoping for
00:10:05.37\00:10:09.90
is that somehow these segments
of genes that will come across
00:10:09.94\00:10:15.14
will somehow trigger
this new viable mechanism.
00:10:15.18\00:10:17.75
It's absolutely
impossible because not only
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have you got to have the code
word, but you've got to have
00:10:20.72\00:10:22.78
all the other codes.
00:10:22.82\00:10:24.15
And the amount of
genetic information to move from
00:10:24.19\00:10:28.76
a fin to an arm shoulder
blade system is enormous.
00:10:28.79\00:10:34.70
And I think what
happens is that people,
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we just don't think.
00:10:38.73\00:10:40.07
Our mind can't
comprehend the enormity
00:10:40.10\00:10:42.64
of the genetic code.
00:10:42.67\00:10:44.24
And it's just glossed over.
00:10:44.67\00:10:47.64
And the other thing is
too, we've got to remember that
00:10:47.84\00:10:50.28
many of our current educators,
and this sort of thing,
00:10:50.85\00:10:54.55
have grown up being taught
all this series of evolution.
00:10:54.58\00:10:58.25
As I mentioned previously,
we've got these books now
00:10:58.29\00:11:00.86
for young children, you
know, ages 3 to 5 teaching them
00:11:01.02\00:11:05.56
about evolution.
00:11:05.59\00:11:06.93
You know, 5 to 7, 5 to
8; early primary school.
00:11:06.96\00:11:11.30
And they're being
taught, you know, fish evolved
00:11:11.47\00:11:13.57
into amphibians,
amphibians into reptiles,
00:11:13.60\00:11:17.07
reptiles into dinosaurs,
and birds, and mammals.
00:11:17.11\00:11:20.38
~ That's the story of evolution.
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.38
Yeah, it's just
inculcated at a very early age.
00:11:22.41\00:11:26.55
And this is so wrong, on
the basis of what we now know,
00:11:26.58\00:11:31.25
you know, from biochemistry,
from paleontology, and so forth.
00:11:31.72\00:11:34.76
So moving onto this
concept of transitional fossils,
00:11:35.36\00:11:38.79
so basically the idea was
from Darwin that as this genetic
00:11:39.43\00:11:45.43
drift occurred, as
mutations occurred,
00:11:45.47\00:11:48.17
after about a thousand
generations or ten thousand
00:11:48.20\00:11:50.77
generations, you branch
and become a new species.
00:11:50.81\00:11:53.71
So the challenge is,
well, where are the fossils
00:11:53.74\00:11:57.45
on that pathway through?
00:11:57.48\00:11:59.61
So tell us, are they there?
00:11:59.71\00:12:01.98
- No. - No.
00:12:02.25\00:12:03.59
That's the amazing
thing. They're not there.
00:12:04.02\00:12:05.42
And when you think
about it, you think about,
00:12:05.45\00:12:07.32
and we talked
about it previously,
00:12:07.49\00:12:09.66
98% of the species are extinct,
and we've got, you know,
00:12:09.69\00:12:12.89
millions of
species already here.
00:12:12.93\00:12:14.80
So that means we're looking
at, you know, a hundred million
00:12:14.83\00:12:17.70
to two hundred
millions species in the past.
00:12:17.90\00:12:20.90
All those species had to
evolve by our evolutionary
00:12:21.17\00:12:24.71
intermediate stages.
00:12:24.74\00:12:26.41
We should find huge amounts
of all these intermediate
00:12:26.51\00:12:31.68
evolutionary species of,
you know, trilobites evolving,
00:12:31.71\00:12:35.88
butterflies,
insects, rhinoceros.
00:12:35.92\00:12:39.89
All these sort of things.
00:12:39.92\00:12:41.26
But we don't find
them. They're not there.
00:12:41.29\00:12:43.93
You know, turtles
just form as turtles.
00:12:44.06\00:12:46.36
If we look at flight,
we've got birds, insects, bats,
00:12:46.70\00:12:52.73
and the extinct pterosaurs.
00:12:52.77\00:12:56.91
Okay, so we've got
these types of fossils.
00:12:56.94\00:13:00.74
All the fossils of those
creatures appear fully formed.
00:13:00.78\00:13:04.61
- So if we take
birds... ~ So no transitions.
00:13:04.65\00:13:06.55
No transitions.
00:13:06.58\00:13:07.92
So if we look at
birds, for example, birds have
00:13:07.95\00:13:09.68
hollow bones, they've got
different breathing systems,
00:13:09.72\00:13:11.85
you know, air sacs
that are directly associated
00:13:11.89\00:13:14.26
with the heart, and so
forth, the digestive system.
00:13:14.29\00:13:16.93
Totally different structures.
00:13:16.99\00:13:18.49
The codes for these
are absolutely massive.
00:13:18.83\00:13:21.63
Absolutely massive codes.
00:13:21.73\00:13:23.60
~ And not even
close to each other.
00:13:23.63\00:13:25.27
And there's no
evolutionary steps to it.
00:13:25.30\00:13:28.87
The same with insects.
00:13:28.90\00:13:30.37
And we look at, you know,
we had this picture of the
00:13:30.41\00:13:32.24
dragonfly up earlier,
the structure, you know,
00:13:32.27\00:13:38.75
to compose the wings
of that dragonfly and the
00:13:38.78\00:13:41.08
amazing flight that it
can perform, the genetic code
00:13:41.12\00:13:44.49
to build all those structures...
00:13:44.69\00:13:46.25
The butterfly, and even
just the wings, you know.
00:13:46.29\00:13:49.66
A guy got his
doctorate a few years ago
00:13:49.69\00:13:51.76
at the University of California,
San Diego, looking at the
00:13:51.79\00:13:54.90
patterns in the
butterfly wings, sort of thing,
00:13:54.93\00:13:57.67
and their optic properties.
00:13:57.70\00:13:59.03
I remember him saying
that somehow nature knew how
00:13:59.07\00:14:02.24
to make these defects that
produce these beautiful colors,
00:14:02.27\00:14:07.31
you know, the camouflage,
and this sort of thing.
00:14:07.34\00:14:09.74
Yeah, they call it
defects, crystal defects,
00:14:09.78\00:14:12.15
so they diffract
the light, and so forth.
00:14:12.18\00:14:14.95
But these are all represented
by codes, complex codes.
00:14:15.55\00:14:18.99
- And this is what... -
As an engineer, I love it.
00:14:19.02\00:14:21.72
And these creatures just
suddenly form and they're there.
00:14:22.56\00:14:25.19
And the same
with flowering plants,
00:14:25.23\00:14:26.70
all these different
parts of flowering plants.
00:14:26.73\00:14:28.86
And when we go to birds,
again, with feathers, you know,
00:14:29.46\00:14:32.33
when you think of the
structure of the feathers.
00:14:32.37\00:14:34.60
You know, the classic
example, "Oh, well birds
00:14:34.64\00:14:36.34
evolved from dinosaurs.
00:14:36.37\00:14:37.71
And dinosaurs, some of them
had scales, and these scales
00:14:37.74\00:14:40.44
slowly formed into feathers."
00:14:40.48\00:14:41.81
When you look at the structure
of the feather, it's amazing.
00:14:42.04\00:14:46.25
You've got this hook, barb,
and barbule system, you know,
00:14:46.28\00:14:49.98
like a Velcro thing.
00:14:50.02\00:14:51.79
But it's not only
Velcro, it's Velcro that slides.
00:14:52.09\00:14:55.12
But there's more.
00:14:55.82\00:14:57.83
The whole thing would, you
know, you get an old feather
00:14:58.86\00:15:02.03
and you put water on
it, it just all crumples up.
00:15:02.06\00:15:04.57
With birds in flight, if
they didn't oil their feathers,
00:15:04.83\00:15:08.67
those barbules
wouldn't slip as easily.
00:15:08.70\00:15:10.87
And the other thing is,
they would fall out of the sky
00:15:11.07\00:15:13.58
because the feathers
would get wet, and they'd die.
00:15:13.61\00:15:16.08
They've got to have a
preening gland producing oil,
00:15:16.11\00:15:19.58
which is a
particular biochemical
00:15:19.61\00:15:22.15
molecular structure.
00:15:22.18\00:15:23.65
You've got to
have code for all that.
00:15:23.69\00:15:25.72
Plus, the preening gland
has to arise at the same time
00:15:25.82\00:15:29.76
as the feathers, or
the feathers don't work.
00:15:29.79\00:15:32.36
But just the
biochemistry associated
00:15:33.09\00:15:35.76
with the preening gland.
00:15:35.80\00:15:37.13
And if the preening gland
was on the top of his head,
00:15:37.23\00:15:39.80
he wouldn't be able to reach
it with his beak to get the oil
00:15:39.83\00:15:42.47
to spread it on his feathers.
00:15:42.50\00:15:43.84
Yeah, it's got to be
in just the right spot.
00:15:43.87\00:15:45.87
It's brilliant engineering.
00:15:45.91\00:15:48.14
And yet, the evolutionists
believe that this all arose
00:15:48.24\00:15:51.45
by blind chance.
00:15:51.48\00:15:52.81
There's no intermediates.
00:15:52.85\00:15:54.32
And that's just one little
creature we're talking about.
00:15:54.62\00:15:58.05
Let alone all the
different types of insects.
00:15:58.09\00:15:59.79
All the bats, their sonar,
how they can adjust their sonar
00:15:59.82\00:16:03.66
to allow for diffraction
of the sound wave into water.
00:16:03.69\00:16:06.43
You know, it
just blows your mind.
00:16:06.70\00:16:08.80
And then we get
into the plant kingdoms,
00:16:08.83\00:16:10.77
and the structure of
flowers, and pollination.
00:16:10.80\00:16:14.60
You need the insects at
the same time as the flowers or
00:16:14.70\00:16:17.74
the insects don't have food, or
the flowers can't be pollinated.
00:16:17.77\00:16:20.68
And all the intermediate steps
to make all these creatures.
00:16:21.41\00:16:26.18
Where are all the fossils of all
the intermediates developing?
00:16:26.21\00:16:29.98
They're not there.
00:16:30.02\00:16:31.35
We find just
fully formed animals.
00:16:31.39\00:16:34.26
They don't change either.
00:16:34.69\00:16:36.22
So contrary to what
many scientists would suggest
00:16:36.26\00:16:39.39
when asked the
question, "Well, where are the
00:16:39.43\00:16:41.46
intermediary species?"
00:16:41.50\00:16:43.26
It's not just a
few that are missing.
00:16:43.90\00:16:45.23
It would have to be millions.
00:16:45.27\00:16:47.14
And so it's not any small
thing, but it's a massive hole
00:16:47.70\00:16:50.54
in the theory of evolution.
00:16:50.57\00:16:51.91
~ It is. The evidence is absent.
00:16:51.94\00:16:54.11
No, one example of
that which I came across
00:16:54.24\00:16:56.91
in reading your book
is the Cambrian explosion.
00:16:56.95\00:16:59.11
You know, if we look
at the pre-Cambrian strata
00:16:59.35\00:17:01.58
and what's been
preserved in that,
00:17:01.92\00:17:05.52
in contrast with
the huge diversity
00:17:05.62\00:17:08.06
and array of life that's in the
Cambrian strata, so to speak,
00:17:08.39\00:17:13.16
how does that fit in with
the evolutionary perspective?
00:17:13.56\00:17:16.06
Where did the information
come from to have such a sudden
00:17:16.10\00:17:19.07
entry of all
these different species?
00:17:19.83\00:17:22.07
Well that's right, it's the
Cambrian explosion, isn't it.
00:17:22.57\00:17:26.44
I mean, books have been
written on this, you know,
00:17:26.81\00:17:30.01
separate books on
this kind of thing.
00:17:30.05\00:17:31.75
Stephen Meyer's
book, for example.
00:17:31.78\00:17:33.55
Yeah, Darwin's Doubt.
00:17:33.75\00:17:35.08
And that's a classic example.
00:17:35.95\00:17:38.65
And this is very early.
00:17:38.75\00:17:40.09
This is right down at the
bottom of the fossil layer
00:17:40.12\00:17:42.72
that we've got these
highly complex creatures.
00:17:42.76\00:17:44.73
And we find the
fossils are the fully formed,
00:17:45.13\00:17:47.26
fully functional creatures.
00:17:47.30\00:17:48.86
But no fossils of them
developing from some ancestor,
00:17:49.06\00:17:53.00
some previous ancestor.
00:17:53.23\00:17:55.14
And yet, as you say, we
find examples where conformably
00:17:55.17\00:17:59.57
underneath these
Cambrian rocks are these earlier
00:17:59.61\00:18:03.18
sedimentary rocks
completely free of fossils.
00:18:03.21\00:18:05.95
So Stephen Meyer's book,
his title, Darwin's Doubt,
00:18:05.98\00:18:09.15
actually kind of leads
us or points us to the idea
00:18:09.18\00:18:13.22
that Darwin himself
was questioning evolution
00:18:13.25\00:18:16.29
based on the fossil record.
00:18:16.32\00:18:18.09
Is that true?
00:18:18.13\00:18:19.69
Was Darwin worried about these
lack of transitional fossils?
00:18:19.73\00:18:24.00
Look, there are a
number of issues that Darwin
00:18:24.03\00:18:26.53
thought with the theory.
00:18:26.57\00:18:27.90
I don't think he saw
that it would blow up to be
00:18:27.94\00:18:31.94
what it has become, you know.
00:18:32.27\00:18:34.71
I mean, he put
his theory out there,
00:18:34.74\00:18:36.85
he was interested in putting
out a new theory for people
00:18:36.95\00:18:39.98
to grab hold of.
00:18:40.02\00:18:41.88
And I think people really
grabbed hold of it because,
00:18:41.92\00:18:44.62
as we discussed earlier,
it was now a mechanical model
00:18:44.82\00:18:49.86
that could be applied to
the biological scientists.
00:18:49.89\00:18:53.19
And this sort of raised their
status a little bit, you know,
00:18:53.29\00:18:56.97
in terms that they could
compete with the physicists,
00:18:57.00\00:18:58.93
and chemists, and engineers.
00:18:58.97\00:19:01.00
~ And theologians.
00:19:01.04\00:19:02.37
Well, the theologians
were more or less left out.
00:19:02.67\00:19:04.64
Yeah, but they
were the opposition now.
00:19:04.67\00:19:06.74
And they had an
answer to challenge
00:19:06.78\00:19:09.54
the biblical perspective.
00:19:09.58\00:19:11.58
And you know, at the time, I
guess, the biblical supporters
00:19:11.81\00:19:17.89
didn't have as much
of the biochemistry and
00:19:17.92\00:19:20.12
geological evidences
we have today to knock
00:19:20.16\00:19:23.43
the theory on its head.
00:19:23.46\00:19:24.79
But, I mean, a
number of commentators have
00:19:24.83\00:19:27.26
pointed out that if Darwin
put forward his theory today,
00:19:27.30\00:19:30.47
on the bases of what
we know today about DNA
00:19:30.50\00:19:32.73
and the fossil
record, and so forth,
00:19:32.77\00:19:34.27
it just wouldn't get up.
00:19:35.10\00:19:36.44
They would say, "Oh yeah, nice,
but it doesn't fit the data."
00:19:36.71\00:19:39.77
Morgan, did you have a
question for John today?
00:19:40.91\00:19:43.11
Yeah, it may seem a
simple question, but sometimes
00:19:43.14\00:19:46.41
the simple
questions are foundational.
00:19:46.45\00:19:48.38
And the question is simply this:
00:19:48.58\00:19:50.15
What did the
fossils then tell us?
00:19:50.19\00:19:52.42
Well, the fossils tell us
quite clearly that creatures
00:19:53.22\00:19:57.76
were created fully formed.
00:19:57.79\00:19:59.36
So this fits the
creation model in the Bible.
00:19:59.39\00:20:02.26
There's no evidence of
evolution in the Bible.
00:20:02.30\00:20:07.34
Well, in the rock records.
00:20:08.70\00:20:10.87
So in other words, it fits
the biblical picture perfectly,
00:20:10.91\00:20:13.58
where we can see
the Bible created
00:20:13.61\00:20:15.61
all the different
creatures after their kind.
00:20:15.64\00:20:18.71
And there's another reason why
the biblical model makes sense
00:20:19.01\00:20:21.92
too, and that's the
ecological position.
00:20:21.95\00:20:23.95
So many different
species depend on one another.
00:20:23.99\00:20:27.12
You know, we talked
about pollination, and insects,
00:20:27.16\00:20:29.56
and birds, and bats that
can play a role in pollination.
00:20:29.59\00:20:33.06
So we have these
ecosystems and such,
00:20:33.26\00:20:35.60
and that's what
the Bible describes.
00:20:35.63\00:20:37.13
And that's why the Bible talks
about creation in six days.
00:20:37.17\00:20:41.97
In a very, very
short time period.
00:20:42.40\00:20:44.54
And this is again
where evolutionary theory has
00:20:44.71\00:20:47.51
major problems in
terms of ecological systems.
00:20:47.54\00:20:50.65
And you know, some
people want to cross over and
00:20:50.88\00:20:52.75
go into theistic evolution,
and this sort of thing.
00:20:52.78\00:20:54.95
There are major
problems there as well,
00:20:54.98\00:20:57.09
from a number
of different areas.
00:20:57.12\00:20:58.89
But the fossil record
paints the Bible picture;
00:20:59.12\00:21:03.36
that there were all
these creatures that existed,
00:21:03.39\00:21:07.20
and they were wiped
out suddenly in a flood.
00:21:07.50\00:21:10.00
And one of the fascinating
things is, too, that they
00:21:10.47\00:21:13.00
haven't changed over millions
of years with the transitions.
00:21:13.03\00:21:17.21
Like the coelacanth, we're
finding fossils in rocks that
00:21:17.31\00:21:20.18
they date 380 million years
old or 350 million years old.
00:21:20.21\00:21:23.75
Yeah, a very long time.
00:21:23.78\00:21:25.21
And yet, we find that
these fish are alive today
00:21:25.41\00:21:29.78
in the Indian Ocean
that look exactly the same.
00:21:29.82\00:21:33.29
They haven't morphed in any way.
00:21:33.56\00:21:35.59
They haven't changed in any
way from those particular fish.
00:21:35.62\00:21:40.16
And I think I mentioned
Dr. Carl Werner in another
00:21:40.20\00:21:43.26
episode who studied
the exhibits in museums.
00:21:43.30\00:21:48.60
And he photographed
the exhibit in the museum
00:21:48.70\00:21:51.77
and then photographed
the live creature today,
00:21:51.81\00:21:54.68
and showed in hundreds of
examples across many different
00:21:54.71\00:21:58.25
phyla that there's no change.
00:21:58.28\00:22:00.42
They haven't changed
over millions of years.
00:22:00.52\00:22:02.45
But if genetic drift
was occurring, you'd expect
00:22:02.48\00:22:05.29
there would be this
slow transition away from
00:22:05.32\00:22:08.26
the original species, you
know, which are fossilized
00:22:08.46\00:22:12.49
to what we have today.
00:22:12.53\00:22:13.86
Yeah, I mean, we've
been recording science
00:22:13.90\00:22:17.57
for the last couple
thousand years, really.
00:22:17.60\00:22:19.73
Since the Greek era
we've been making observations,
00:22:19.77\00:22:22.70
since Aristotle and so forth.
00:22:22.74\00:22:24.14
And we haven't
observed any evolution.
00:22:24.54\00:22:26.51
We've tried to
speed it up in the lab,
00:22:26.54\00:22:28.14
and we haven't observed that.
00:22:28.18\00:22:29.51
But when you think about
it, if there's been, you know,
00:22:29.54\00:22:31.51
a couple of hundred million
species evolved over the last
00:22:31.55\00:22:34.18
600 million years, we
should see a new species
00:22:34.22\00:22:37.25
fully evolving every, you
know, three or four years or so.
00:22:37.29\00:22:41.92
We haven't observed, in
the past 3000 years we haven't
00:22:41.96\00:22:44.16
observed any evolution.
00:22:44.19\00:22:45.69
So we don't see
those transitions.
00:22:46.09\00:22:47.70
Something else that you
mentioned in your book about
00:22:47.73\00:22:50.03
Dr. Carl Werner, I think it
was, was that he and his wife
00:22:50.07\00:22:53.23
discovered that as they did
research in different museums
00:22:53.27\00:22:56.30
and places, that there were
at least 430 different mammals
00:22:56.34\00:22:59.61
that were found fossilized
with dinosaurs, including birds;
00:22:59.64\00:23:04.15
which, of course, was supposedly
to have evolved from dinosaurs.
00:23:04.78\00:23:07.78
And so, but of all the
60 museums they went into,
00:23:07.82\00:23:11.19
none of these actually
shared these in their displays.
00:23:11.22\00:23:14.66
And I guess my question
is, at what point do you think
00:23:14.99\00:23:19.16
scientists and archaeologists,
or paleontologists rather,
00:23:19.26\00:23:22.03
will say, "Well, we don't know
how to answer how this happened,
00:23:22.06\00:23:25.60
but here it is," and to
actually show the public?
00:23:25.63\00:23:28.10
Yes, well I think the issue is,
as I've said, we have so many
00:23:28.94\00:23:32.64
books purporting to show
evolution in all sorts of
00:23:32.67\00:23:35.94
pictorial forms
from kindergarten onward
00:23:35.98\00:23:40.45
that it's very difficult.
00:23:41.48\00:23:42.82
The museums are
following that picture.
00:23:42.85\00:23:45.39
There are
leading paleontologists
00:23:45.62\00:23:47.82
that have questioned
this and said, "Well hang on,
00:23:47.86\00:23:49.69
we don't actually find
this evolutionary evidence
00:23:49.72\00:23:52.56
in the fossil record."
00:23:52.59\00:23:53.93
~ One of them would have been
Stephen Jay Gould from Harvard?
00:23:54.33\00:23:57.33
Well, he was more...
Yes, he did say that.
00:23:57.67\00:24:02.60
And hence, his punctuated
equilibrium, that somehow
00:24:02.64\00:24:06.37
there were sort of
massive changes that occurred
00:24:06.41\00:24:08.54
in a very short
span that produced these.
00:24:08.58\00:24:10.95
And Eugene Koonin
said the same thing.
00:24:10.98\00:24:12.85
What do you think of
punctuated equilibrium?
00:24:12.88\00:24:14.82
You know this idea
that there was this kind of
00:24:15.22\00:24:17.42
stasis, and then
these massive jumps.
00:24:18.05\00:24:20.76
Yes, well that's another fairy
tale that people are clinging
00:24:21.69\00:24:26.03
hopes on that somehow
all this massive new code
00:24:26.06\00:24:29.50
can arise by chance.
00:24:29.53\00:24:30.87
There's some sort of
environmental condition
00:24:30.90\00:24:33.54
that just promotes
massive new meaningful code.
00:24:33.57\00:24:37.01
But that's wishful
thinking, you know.
00:24:37.04\00:24:38.91
It's a fairy tale.
00:24:38.94\00:24:40.28
It's the frog turning into
a prince type thing, you know.
00:24:40.31\00:24:43.28
We can wish that, but where
is the scientific evidence?
00:24:43.31\00:24:46.08
It's not going to happen.
00:24:46.11\00:24:47.45
The code is just so
massive and so complicated,
00:24:47.58\00:24:50.29
and yet it works.
00:24:50.59\00:24:51.92
All those different little
functioning bits all line up.
00:24:51.95\00:24:55.66
And the biochemistry
is far more complex.
00:24:56.86\00:24:59.79
You know, we have biochemists
that specialize in just a
00:24:59.83\00:25:02.70
particular area of science;
00:25:02.73\00:25:04.33
in this area of
science, and this area...
00:25:04.37\00:25:05.70
The biochemistry is so huge.
00:25:05.73\00:25:07.47
And that's just
the biochemistry,
00:25:07.97\00:25:09.70
let alone anatomy and
physiology and all the
00:25:09.74\00:25:11.87
structures that
go along with it.
00:25:11.91\00:25:13.24
All the
engineering bits, you know.
00:25:13.27\00:25:14.94
And borrowing
from Justin's question
00:25:15.38\00:25:17.75
and a comment you made earlier,
you made the observation
00:25:18.31\00:25:23.35
that you'd never get a
scientific paper published
00:25:23.39\00:25:27.59
which made reference
to God, or the Bible,
00:25:28.02\00:25:30.73
or to supernatural miracles.
00:25:30.76\00:25:32.96
I mean, why is that the case if
science is in search of truth?
00:25:33.46\00:25:38.17
And God exists and He
created species supernaturally,
00:25:38.47\00:25:44.21
why couldn't we publish
that in a scientific journal?
00:25:44.54\00:25:48.41
I think it's just a cultural
change and a social change
00:25:48.74\00:25:51.91
where with political groups
atheism is the dominant culture
00:25:51.95\00:25:56.69
within science, and
it fails to recognize
00:25:56.72\00:25:59.99
that many of the leading
scientists in the past were
00:26:00.02\00:26:02.32
very devout Bible
students, believed in God,
00:26:02.36\00:26:05.53
and they made a number of the
major scientific breakthroughs.
00:26:05.56\00:26:08.70
And the dominance of Christians
right through to the mid 1950's
00:26:08.73\00:26:13.13
was very strong in universities.
00:26:13.17\00:26:14.84
But since that time,
00:26:14.94\00:26:16.47
unfortunately
it's been squeezed out.
00:26:16.50\00:26:19.44
And this is where it
all needs to be reversed now
00:26:19.47\00:26:21.68
and the evidence pointed out.
00:26:21.71\00:26:23.04
The evidence is overwhelming
00:26:23.08\00:26:24.81
for the existence
of a Creator in God.
00:26:25.11\00:26:28.68
~ You know, it's fascinating.
00:26:29.42\00:26:30.75
And so what we're looking
at here is this fossil record
00:26:30.79\00:26:34.06
and all of these animals
and plants which have existed
00:26:34.09\00:26:39.39
down through the years,
but we just don't find these
00:26:39.43\00:26:41.60
transitional fossils.
00:26:41.63\00:26:43.43
It's really, really amazing.
00:26:43.47\00:26:45.17
And you know, the fact
is that it is intriguing
00:26:45.37\00:26:48.10
that we find these fossils,
but at the same time we have
00:26:48.14\00:26:53.27
an opportunity where we can't
see these transitional forms.
00:26:53.31\00:26:57.58
We have this
massive theory of evolution,
00:26:57.78\00:27:00.15
but all the links are just
not there in the fossil record.
00:27:00.18\00:27:03.79
And the question is, where does
that leave the whole theory?
00:27:04.09\00:27:07.56
You know, it seems to me
that evolution is looking
00:27:07.92\00:27:11.26
more and more impossible.
00:27:11.29\00:27:13.70
And the good news is
this: if you have really enjoyed
00:27:14.06\00:27:17.17
the discussion
that we've had today,
00:27:17.20\00:27:18.80
and you would like to learn more
about the scientific evidence
00:27:19.00\00:27:21.84
about fossils,
about paleontology,
00:27:21.87\00:27:24.87
about geology, I'd like
to encourage you to go to
00:27:24.91\00:27:27.88
your favorite online bookstore
and get Dr. John Ashton's
00:27:27.91\00:27:31.98
book, Evolution Impossible.
00:27:32.01\00:27:33.35
It's a fantastic read.
00:27:33.38\00:27:35.02
Easy to understand, but really,
really informative as well.
00:27:35.42\00:27:39.42
And next time we're going
to be exploring the very reason
00:27:39.69\00:27:44.03
why there are all these
fossils buried in the ground.
00:27:44.06\00:27:47.63
And you might be
really surprised.
00:27:47.73\00:27:49.30
Could it be the flood which
the Bible is talking about?
00:27:49.33\00:27:52.53
And remember, you can watch
any of these previous videos
00:27:52.73\00:27:55.24
on our website on 3ABN.
00:27:55.27\00:27:57.27