Hello, I'm Dr. Sven  string.
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Welcome back to
Evolution Impossible.
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Here with me to
continue this fascinating
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journey is Dr. John Ashton,
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Ellie Turner, Jeandré
Roux, and Stephen Aveling-Rowe.
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Thanks for
joining me once again.
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As soon as I say
the name, "Darwin,"
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I'm sure that you'll instantly
know who I'm talking about.
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And pictures of the
voyage of the HMS Beagle,
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the Galapagos
Islands, finch beaks,
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and that very well known
picture of a line-up of monkeys
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slowly standing up and
gradually becoming a human being
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will come to mind.
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But sometimes
people really don't know
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what Darwin's
theory actually was.
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So, John, can you clarify for
us, what was Darwin's theory?
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How did he explain
how life came about?
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Yeah, sure, well Darwin
grew up in the age when we had
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the mechanical world
view was being developed,
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and in particular
machines were being developed.
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- It was very
mechanistic. - Well, yes.
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But machines were evolving.
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And there was talk
about these changes,
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and people were
actually saying, "Well, did life
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actually change like this too?"
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Because there was also
a group of intellectuals
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that believed that the
earth was millions of years old.
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So James Hutton back in the
late 1700's had proposed this,
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that the biblical
timeline was too short,
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that the rocks were
millions of years old,
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and that time was much longer.
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Now the other thing
was that Darwin, of course,
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was very interested in nature.
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And he'd been interested
in breeding, and so forth.
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He was very interested in
beetles, if I remember rightly.
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Is that correct?
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Well, that was among the
many different types of animals.
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He was interested
in lots of animals.
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Part of this initial
concept, though, came from
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studying, for example,
just grass in the lawn.
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- Watching grass
grow. - Well, yes.
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But what he noticed
was that when he looked at
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a square yard of grass...
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And they had yards
back in those days,
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Meters today.
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...that there were
all these different types
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of grass in there, and
they were essentially competing
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for the same space
and the same nutrients.
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And this was, in his mind,
there was competition here.
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Now at that time, as
well, he went on the voyage
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on the Beagle, that
we learn about, and he
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was given a copy of the book
by Charles Lyell, the geologist.
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Now Lyell, again, was certainly
enamored with long ages
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and long periods of time.
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And so, Darwin read this book.
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Now in the meantime,
Darwin was putting together
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his ideas of how
perhaps mutations produced
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different types of organisms.
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And he drew a
tree, a tree of life.
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And he proposed that...
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He saw this piece of grass, and
many of them were so similar.
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So he thought, well
maybe there are mutations.
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And they breed, and they
breed, and then over time
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after enough generations
of sufficient differences
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that they actually
form a new species.
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So how many generations
does it take for that tree
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to start branching?
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Well, Darwin didn't know,
of course, but he proposed
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initially in his diagram,
and as he wrote about it,
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about a thousand generations.
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But he also made the
proposal, well maybe it
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could be ten
thousand generations.
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So he didn't really know.
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Which was quite
reasonable, you know,
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in terms of
developing his theory.
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So essentially, when he
read Lyell's book on the journey
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and saw that Lyell had noticed
that in the fossil record
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the fossils
higher up in the stratum,
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which was the
more recent strata,
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seemed to be more
complex compared to the animals
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that were further down.
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This sort of matched
Darwin's little diagram
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of his tree of mutations.
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And essentially,
that's what he did.
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He put the two together.
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And of course, he
noticed in that island off the
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west coast of Africa,
Madeira, I think it is,
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that there were a couple hundred
species of wingless beetles,
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and they had survived, because
it's a very windy island.
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And of course, the
beetles that have wings
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just got blown off the island.
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So they didn't stay
around to mate and breed.
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But the ones that developed
deformities, had mutations,
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and so their wings were smaller,
they didn't get blown off.
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So they can breed and progress.
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So the beetles were evolving.
That's what he was thinking.
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Yes. And so that led
to this idea of survival
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of the fittest
for the environment.
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So that eliminated the
mutations that weren't suited.
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So the best mutations survived.
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So it's a combination of
those three factors, really.
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The competition of
species, saw them there,
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but there were a lot of
similarities with the grass.
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So maybe there was a
common ancestor, and they all
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sort of bred and
slowly developed differences;
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represented by that little tree.
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And then Lyell's theory; well
hang on, we've got all these
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different layers in the rocks,
and they contain different
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types of fossils, it would
seem, in varying complexity.
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And then this observation
of many species competing
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for food, or in the
environment, and so forth.
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I mean, it was a
brilliant idea he went through.
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One of the things,
of course, was he didn't
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know how life started.
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He said, whatever,
some primordial ancestry
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into which life
was first breathed.
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So that common
ancestor going back in time
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through this tree of life.
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That's right, yes.
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And look, this tree of life,
it's a brilliant teaching tool.
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You know, in terms of you just
draw it out there on a notebook,
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or on a blackboard back then.
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And I guess my question
for our panel here is this:
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Does Darwin's tree of
life, does it make sense to you?
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Does it, you know,
does it kind of explain,
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do you get what
Darwin was trying to say?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, for me, the twigs on
the branches, they make sense.
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But the branches and the
trunk itself, that's where
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I struggle to
see the connections.
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Right, right.
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So you start to
doubt the history
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of this very tree of life.
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Seeing the record there, I just
haven't seen enough evidence
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for me to personally
say that it makes sense.
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Right. And what
about you, Jeandré?
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Yeah, yeah, for
me it's very vague.
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Like, he draws this tree
of life, and he explains it,
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but he doesn't
really know anything.
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It could be a
thousand years, it could be
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a thousand
generations, you know.
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He's just vague.
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And I guess the big
question, John, is this:
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Was this the only theory around?
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And Ellie, just wanted to
know, did you have any questions
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for John on that topic?
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Yeah, I was specifically
wondering what other theories
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in the western world
existed in the time of Darwin,
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in terms of the origin of life?
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Obviously there were lots
of religions around the world
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that believed different things
about how life originated.
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But was it widely believed
in Darwin's time that God
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created the world and
the things that we see?
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Or was there other
theories that were circulating?
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No, certainly in Darwin's time
at leading European universities
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most leading scientists
and philosophers would have
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believed in God and creation.
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In fact, flood theory to
explain the origin of structures
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was probably taught at Oxford
University up at least until
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the early 1800's.
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So these scientists
certainly believed in that.
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And many of the
leading scientists
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were, in fact, creationists.
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You know, people like Newton.
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And even after Darwin's
time, there were scientists that
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recognized, hang on, there are
major problems with his theory.
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And one of those scientists
is James Clerk Maxwell.
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And Maxwell was the physicist
that proposed that life was
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a combination of
electric and magnetic fields.
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He developed field
theory. Brilliant physicist.
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Matter of fact, Einstein
simply applied his theories
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to gravity and built on Maxwell.
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So Maxwell is one of
the great scientists,
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along with Einstein and Newton.
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And Maxwell is a very
strong anti-Darwinist.
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And he would say, "Well,
how did molecules evolve?"
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And, "How did atoms evolve?"
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He raised a lot of
very interesting questions.
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But in actual fact, the
theory of evolution goes back
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to the ancient Greek times.
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So you've got Greek
philosophers living about
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500 BC, that sort of
era, Democritus, and so forth,
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they believed that, they didn't
believe in God; so atheists.
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And so they believed
originally that matter,
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there were just all these
little particles of matter,
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and they float around
and they come together,
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and they became the
animals, and the trees,
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and this sort of thing.
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And those theories were
recorded, I recall, in a poem
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by Lucretius, a Roman poet.
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He wrote around the
first century, I think,
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or there abouts.
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And his poem was essentially
lost and rediscovered.
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And again, boy, you're
testing me on my history now.
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But I think round about the
1300's a copy of Lucretius' poem
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was discovered that encapsulated
these earlier theories
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of Democritus and so forth,
in terms of atoms and so forth.
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And that really led to
an explosion of thinking
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along these particular lines
and laid the foundations later
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for evolutionary theory.
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Of course, in the meantime
there had been these theories
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of, you know, that life
was spontaneously generated.
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You know, people
had noted, well hang on,
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if you leave a bag of wheat
out, or something, you know,
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you'd find mice there.
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But Pasteur, again, was
able to show that, hang on,
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if you boiled a
liquid and sterilized it,
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and separated it from
air, you didn't get anything
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coming to life or grow.
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So even today, of
course, we still don't know how
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the first life,
you know, started.
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Darwin's theory
really provided a mechanical
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theory based on
a mechanical model.
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Because at that time,
Newton had published his
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principle of mechanics
and the laws of motion.
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The laws of physics
had been discovered.
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But biology was
out there by itself.
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So now if you had the tree
of life, you had your mutation
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mechanisms, your
natural selection.
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You had this
mechanical mechanism now
00:11:17.67\00:11:20.08
that could be
applied to biology.
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So that's why it
really, really took off.
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Plus, Lyell was a
brilliant geologist,
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and he did a lot of mapping,
he developed this concept
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of the
geological column over time.
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And that was embraced too.
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The only issue was that
a lot of the measurements
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that he did were based
on estimates and so forth
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that we know now are wrong.
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And so, from what I understand,
Darwin's grandfather,
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Erasmus Darwin,
actually believed in a
00:11:50.87\00:11:54.48
form of evolution as well.
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And he had a colleague,
Wallace, if I recall correctly,
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who was also
developing these ideas.
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So, there is this real
fascination with machines,
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but also this real
emphasis on how do we kind of
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eliminate or push
these supernatural out of the
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developmental
process for life as well.
00:12:14.60\00:12:16.87
So it's very interesting,
this whole year in which these
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theories were developing.
00:12:20.97\00:12:22.30
But of course, Darwin
had a friend, a colleague,
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Thomas Huxley.
00:12:25.54\00:12:27.04
And can you tell us a little
bit more about Thomas Huxley
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and his involvement
with Darwin and the promotion
00:12:30.48\00:12:34.55
of the theory of evolution which
followed from Darwin's book?
00:12:34.58\00:12:38.72
Yeah, so Huxley wrote a
book three or four years after
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Darwin, it would have
been published 1864, I think.
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Something like,
The Ascent of Man.
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Something like that.
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And essentially, his
claim was that man had
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ascended from the apes.
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And so he applied
Darwin's theory of evolution,
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particularly in the
concept of the origin of man,
00:13:04.11\00:13:07.12
and that man has
essentially evolved from apes.
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And that's, of course,
why anthropologists and
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paleontologists began looking
for the earliest, you know,
00:13:13.96\00:13:18.06
remains of
human-like species in Africa.
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That was the whole
basis of that because apes
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were found in Africa there.
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So that was a
very important aspect.
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And my understanding from
the reading of literature is,
00:13:29.77\00:13:32.84
that whole mid-1800 area
was so enamored with this
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mechanical view of things.
00:13:40.32\00:13:42.58
And they were certainly
talking about, you know,
00:13:42.62\00:13:45.75
in academic circles, machines,
and they saw the gradual
00:13:45.79\00:13:50.29
evolution of the steam engine
and people with better valves,
00:13:50.33\00:13:54.76
and better safety
valves, and you know, so forth,
00:13:54.80\00:13:58.20
develop better machines.
00:13:58.23\00:13:59.57
But at the same time we also,
with the industrial revolution,
00:13:59.60\00:14:03.34
saw people moved off
their little cottage industries
00:14:03.54\00:14:06.44
into the cities, and there
wasn't there enough work now,
00:14:06.47\00:14:09.94
there wasn't enough food, and
so there was intense competition
00:14:09.98\00:14:12.98
for survival in the
cities to get enough food.
00:14:13.01\00:14:16.12
So there was all this social
change that you talked about
00:14:16.15\00:14:20.36
taking place, where
you saw that in society.
00:14:20.39\00:14:22.69
People were fighting over the
limited resources in the city.
00:14:22.72\00:14:25.96
And at the same time there were
all these machines evolving,
00:14:26.26\00:14:28.96
powering the cotton mills,
people with better governors
00:14:29.00\00:14:32.73
on their machines,
and better horsepower,
00:14:32.77\00:14:34.84
and could produce more.
00:14:34.87\00:14:36.20
And so those factories did
better, and the other ones,
00:14:36.91\00:14:39.64
you know, sort of went
broke, and this sort of thing.
00:14:39.67\00:14:41.58
So it was a whole
environment at that time.
00:14:41.61\00:14:44.41
At the same time, the power
of the church was very strong,
00:14:44.51\00:14:48.18
and there were a lot of
academics that didn't want
00:14:48.22\00:14:51.19
and were looking
for ways to challenge
00:14:51.22\00:14:53.76
the power of the church.
00:14:53.79\00:14:55.29
And Darwin's theory was
seen in this way, hang on,
00:14:55.52\00:14:58.23
we can explain the
origin of life outside the story
00:14:58.59\00:15:03.87
or the account in Genesis.
00:15:03.97\00:15:05.60
And this had really
gripped that group of academics
00:15:06.03\00:15:09.10
that didn't want
God in the picture.
00:15:09.27\00:15:11.47
And that would explain
the debate between the bishop
00:15:11.67\00:15:14.44
Samuel
Wilberforce, Thomas Huxley,
00:15:14.48\00:15:17.35
and also Charles Darwin as well.
00:15:17.38\00:15:19.38
One of the comments
they made is, you know,
00:15:19.41\00:15:22.42
whether they evolved
from a monkey or an ape.
00:15:22.45\00:15:26.09
You know, whether their
grandmother was an ape or not.
00:15:26.12\00:15:29.12
And I guess the
question for us today is this:
00:15:29.22\00:15:31.83
How do you feel about
this concept of us evolving
00:15:31.86\00:15:35.93
from some kind of
ape-like creature in the past?
00:15:35.96\00:15:39.13
How does that strike you?
00:15:39.23\00:15:40.57
I've always
struggled with the idea that my
00:15:41.47\00:15:43.34
great great great
grandfather was a monkey.
00:15:43.37\00:15:45.51
But I actually had a specific
question for Dr. Ashton on that.
00:15:46.37\00:15:49.54
In chapter two of your book you
mentioned the find of a skeleton
00:15:50.31\00:15:55.35
that they call, Lucy.
00:15:55.38\00:15:56.82
And that was suppose to
be a transitional fossil
00:15:57.39\00:15:59.42
between humans and apes.
00:15:59.45\00:16:00.96
And you noted that since
then, there has been more recent
00:16:01.32\00:16:05.63
finds that Lucy was
actually more different
00:16:05.66\00:16:08.56
from humans and apes than humans
and apes are from each other.
00:16:08.60\00:16:12.10
And I was also wondering what
that find exactly was based on.
00:16:13.13\00:16:17.01
Was it based on the skeleton
structure, or was it based on
00:16:17.04\00:16:21.14
DNA evidence, or how did
they come to that conclusion?
00:16:21.18\00:16:24.41
Yeah, so it's certainly
based on anatomical evidence.
00:16:24.51\00:16:27.45
So it was based on the physical
bone structure and so forth
00:16:27.85\00:16:31.89
when that was examined.
00:16:31.92\00:16:33.25
It's interesting, in museums
that sometimes have models
00:16:33.29\00:16:36.99
of Lucy, and one of the ones
that I saw would have been like
00:16:37.19\00:16:42.90
a typical human model
where they put hair all over her
00:16:42.93\00:16:47.30
and put sort of
an ape-like face.
00:16:47.54\00:16:49.60
But humans stand
very different to apes.
00:16:49.64\00:16:54.44
We have a very
different pelvic structure,
00:16:54.48\00:16:56.31
the way the bones
enter there, and so forth.
00:16:56.34\00:17:00.18
And it's very different.
00:17:00.22\00:17:02.42
And so what happens is,
sometimes in these museums
00:17:02.45\00:17:06.92
and in these reconstructions
that are portrayed in books,
00:17:06.96\00:17:10.43
they're portrayed it
would seem more human-like
00:17:10.63\00:17:13.26
than in actual fact they are,
if we actually portrayed them
00:17:13.29\00:17:16.80
as they are
correctly anatomically.
00:17:16.83\00:17:19.07
They wouldn't look as
human-like as they're portrayed.
00:17:19.27\00:17:22.24
And of course, this all
helps confirm this concept
00:17:22.27\00:17:26.17
that we did evolve from apes.
00:17:26.21\00:17:27.54
Where in actual fact, when we
look at the actual physiology,
00:17:27.58\00:17:30.18
when we examine the
bones, when we examine how they
00:17:30.21\00:17:32.71
would have stood, it would have
been very different to those
00:17:32.75\00:17:34.78
images that are created.
00:17:34.82\00:17:36.79
So carry on from that then.
00:17:37.42\00:17:38.89
Think of living fossils.
00:17:38.99\00:17:40.49
I mean, how, within
evolutionary millions of years,
00:17:40.69\00:17:44.53
would we still have fossilized
remains of things like, I mean,
00:17:44.73\00:17:48.23
there whales, there's
so many different species
00:17:48.26\00:17:50.53
that we have exact
conformity to what we see
00:17:50.63\00:17:53.47
in the natural world
today, and yet, if we look back
00:17:53.50\00:17:56.54
you know, there are
also fossil records?
00:17:56.74\00:17:58.84
How does that fit in with
the evolutionary perspective?
00:17:58.94\00:18:01.44
Well, of course, yes, Darwin
claimed that, you know, we would
00:18:01.94\00:18:06.25
find the fossils of
the intermediate species.
00:18:06.28\00:18:08.45
This was a major problem.
00:18:08.48\00:18:10.52
And so, what we find in
the fossil record is that
00:18:10.55\00:18:13.29
the species
essentially don't change.
00:18:13.52\00:18:15.26
They appear, they stay the same,
and then they become extinct,
00:18:15.29\00:18:19.16
or we find fossils
like, you say, of whales
00:18:19.19\00:18:21.60
and they're the same today.
00:18:21.63\00:18:22.96
What we're not
finding is the intermediate.
00:18:24.17\00:18:26.53
So we should have seen slowly,
say, the development of turtles.
00:18:26.57\00:18:30.41
We should have seen slowly a
creature changing into a turtle.
00:18:30.44\00:18:34.31
Or the development of horns,
00:18:34.34\00:18:36.38
say, you know, on
different species,
00:18:37.05\00:18:39.38
whether it's dinosaurs,
where we should have seen the
00:18:39.41\00:18:42.05
gradual development of these.
00:18:42.08\00:18:43.75
But we don't.
00:18:43.79\00:18:45.12
We don't find these
evolutionary intermediates.
00:18:45.15\00:18:48.46
You know, a classic one is
sort of from dinosaurs to birds,
00:18:48.49\00:18:51.96
looking for the intermediates,
they're often desperate
00:18:52.16\00:18:54.66
to find a fossil.
00:18:54.70\00:18:57.20
But the point is that if
Darwin's theory really happened,
00:18:57.37\00:19:00.40
and we find trillions
of fossils just about,
00:19:00.44\00:19:02.94
there should also be millions
of intermediate fossils.
00:19:03.54\00:19:10.65
Millions of fossils
showing this gradual transition.
00:19:10.68\00:19:14.35
But we don't find those changes.
00:19:14.72\00:19:16.28
This is a major, major problem.
00:19:16.32\00:19:18.85
And leading paleontologists
recognize this too,
00:19:18.89\00:19:21.59
that the geologic
column doesn't actually show
00:19:21.62\00:19:25.59
the gradual
progression that originally
00:19:25.63\00:19:28.30
Lyell thought that it did.
00:19:28.33\00:19:29.73
And secondly...
00:19:29.83\00:19:31.17
In actual fact, the
fossils are all mixed up.
00:19:31.20\00:19:33.44
Like, for example, when
I was in Hawaii recently
00:19:33.50\00:19:35.67
I saw in the museum
there a fossil of a mammal
00:19:35.70\00:19:40.01
with the remains of a
dinosaur in its stomach.
00:19:40.31\00:19:43.75
Well, people often think, you
know, the mammals came later,
00:19:44.35\00:19:46.72
but no, they
coexisted with dinosaurs.
00:19:46.75\00:19:48.42
Now that's not the
picture that we often get.
00:19:48.45\00:19:50.95
No, the fossils, in actual
fact, are a lot more mixed up
00:19:51.19\00:19:54.22
than they'd have us to believe
in the geological column,
00:19:54.26\00:19:56.93
in actual fact, out there.
00:19:57.26\00:19:58.79
And the other thing is, the
lack of these intermediates.
00:19:58.83\00:20:02.36
We haven't found the
intermediate fossils.
00:20:02.63\00:20:04.60
So the geologic record,
the paleontologic record
00:20:04.63\00:20:09.14
doesn't actually
provide evidence for evolution.
00:20:09.17\00:20:12.41
And this is a major problem.
00:20:12.67\00:20:14.18
But again, this isn't really
enforced to the young people.
00:20:14.21\00:20:18.78
You know, Dr. Ashton,
for me it's always been,
00:20:19.71\00:20:22.25
if evolution teaches
that we evolved from apes,
00:20:23.08\00:20:26.19
why are there still apes?
00:20:26.69\00:20:28.02
So how does
evolution explain that?
00:20:28.06\00:20:29.79
Well, I guess from
the tree they would say
00:20:29.99\00:20:32.39
some continue the same,
but you have these mutations
00:20:32.43\00:20:35.50
that come off, and they've
accumulated, and so forth.
00:20:35.53\00:20:40.17
But another question
that follows from that is,
00:20:40.20\00:20:42.44
it's well known that
human beings, chimpanzees, apes,
00:20:42.47\00:20:47.48
we're about 96% the
same, in terms of our genome.
00:20:47.58\00:20:51.38
That sounds really suspiciously
like the fact that we evolved.
00:20:52.01\00:20:56.62
How would we address that,
00:20:56.65\00:20:59.15
that sort of genetic
piece of information?
00:20:59.19\00:21:02.22
Yeah, sure.
00:21:02.42\00:21:03.76
Okay, well look,
that's pretty subjective.
00:21:03.79\00:21:05.99
That 96%, I guess, looks at
the number of genes that are
00:21:06.03\00:21:12.37
responsible for biochemical
pathways that we have.
00:21:12.40\00:21:14.87
So, we are very complex.
00:21:14.90\00:21:16.60
Our biochemistry
is extremely complex.
00:21:16.64\00:21:19.21
And so, we have a lot
of DNA in us to provide
00:21:19.44\00:21:23.45
those biochemical pathways
and all those molecular machines
00:21:23.48\00:21:26.15
that are very
similar in a lot of mammals,
00:21:26.18\00:21:27.98
and particularly in apes
that are slightly similar to us.
00:21:28.02\00:21:32.39
But that kind of similarity
doesn't include a lot of the
00:21:32.65\00:21:35.36
junk DNA which they didn't know.
00:21:35.39\00:21:37.03
So there's a lot of
questions over that.
00:21:37.06\00:21:38.59
And when you
actually look at the code,
00:21:38.69\00:21:40.30
when I look at
the code and read it,
00:21:40.33\00:21:42.93
man, it doesn't
look similar to me.
00:21:43.13\00:21:44.47
It doesn't look
like 96% similarity.
00:21:44.50\00:21:46.43
It looks totally different.
00:21:46.47\00:21:48.37
What they're saying is that
there are sections of code that
00:21:48.40\00:21:50.54
switch on similar
genes, and so forth.
00:21:50.57\00:21:55.41
But again, to me, if we use the
example of Porsche and VW cars,
00:21:56.18\00:22:02.05
you know, they
have the same designer.
00:22:02.08\00:22:03.65
They're quite different.
00:22:03.69\00:22:05.12
But they have a
lot of commonality,
00:22:05.85\00:22:07.42
you know, common properties.
00:22:07.46\00:22:08.79
You know,
horizontally opposed engines
00:22:08.82\00:22:10.16
and rear engines, and so forth,
00:22:10.19\00:22:12.23
because they have the same
designer, father and son team.
00:22:12.26\00:22:14.96
So what you're saying is,
similarities in terms of anatomy
00:22:15.16\00:22:18.63
and genetics, and the genome,
could also be explained by the
00:22:18.67\00:22:22.57
common designer rather
than just a common ancestor.
00:22:22.60\00:22:25.24
- That's the designer
reasoning. - Ah yes, yes.
00:22:25.57\00:22:28.14
And look, one of the
fascinating things is that
00:22:28.34\00:22:30.65
Darwin's tree and the
original evolutionary trees
00:22:30.85\00:22:34.92
that were proposed after Darwin
based on the fossil record,
00:22:34.95\00:22:39.39
and the geologic column,
and the shape of animals,
00:22:39.42\00:22:44.43
their anatomy and
physiology, which we call the
00:22:44.46\00:22:47.23
homologous series, of sort,
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.53
that's based on their
anatomy and physiology.
00:22:49.63\00:22:51.57
When we started analyzing
the DNA, when we got that
00:22:51.87\00:22:55.00
capability, we
found, whoa, hang on,
00:22:55.04\00:22:57.17
it's a totally
different picture.
00:22:57.41\00:22:59.27
And so when we drew the, what
we call, phylogenetic trees, now
00:22:59.87\00:23:03.58
based on the similarities
in DNA, they go really wild.
00:23:03.61\00:23:07.95
Like, I think the ones for
humans, we're related to dogs,
00:23:07.98\00:23:11.52
and fungi, and E. coli.
00:23:11.99\00:23:15.56
You know, I mean, it
just goes really weird.
00:23:15.99\00:23:21.43
And I think one of the things
that people don't realize is
00:23:21.46\00:23:23.57
that the same piece of
code in a different environment
00:23:23.60\00:23:27.94
will produce different outcomes.
00:23:27.97\00:23:29.90
And this is one of
the fascinating things.
00:23:30.57\00:23:32.31
So you can have a code
that might produce an eye
00:23:32.34\00:23:34.21
in one organism,
and in another organism
00:23:34.24\00:23:37.35
it doesn't produce an eye.
00:23:37.71\00:23:39.18
This is one of the
fascinating things.
00:23:39.51\00:23:42.02
And one of the diagrams that
you probably would have seen
00:23:42.22\00:23:44.75
in your science
textbooks would have been
00:23:44.79\00:23:47.76
this series of embryos.
00:23:47.79\00:23:50.16
So not only the
similarities between chimpanzees
00:23:50.26\00:23:53.50
and apes and human
beings, but also embryos.
00:23:53.53\00:23:56.97
Following the development,
and you start to see, hang on,
00:23:57.00\00:24:00.50
it looks like evolution.
00:24:00.54\00:24:02.20
You can watch
evolution in action.
00:24:02.24\00:24:03.91
So I just wanted to know, do
you have any sort of thoughts
00:24:04.11\00:24:07.14
or comments or questions
on that aspect of evolution?
00:24:07.18\00:24:10.81
Jumping in on that
one, I mean, you know,
00:24:11.41\00:24:13.48
Haeckel's drawing that we
see was done quite a while ago.
00:24:13.52\00:24:16.85
You know, it's still being in
textbooks right into the 2000's.
00:24:17.72\00:24:21.52
What is the
evidence to support that?
00:24:22.39\00:24:24.23
And have there been
further photographic studies
00:24:24.26\00:24:26.90
done to document that?
00:24:26.93\00:24:28.66
Yes, yes, certainly.
00:24:29.30\00:24:30.70
So, yes, Haeckel, the German
embryologist, proposed that,
00:24:30.73\00:24:35.77
that the embryos went
through stages that represented
00:24:35.80\00:24:38.84
the evolutionary
ancestor of the species.
00:24:38.87\00:24:42.64
And this has certainly
been in textbooks, you know,
00:24:43.45\00:24:47.55
up until fairly recently,
as you say, in the mid-2000's.
00:24:47.58\00:24:50.82
I remember seeing that
purported or written up in a
00:24:50.85\00:24:53.92
textbook at a university
in the university library.
00:24:53.96\00:24:56.59
Which I thought was
really wrong, because
00:24:56.62\00:24:58.29
back in the
mid-1990's Dr. Richardson
00:24:58.49\00:25:02.20
with a team of colleagues
did a major study photographing
00:25:02.40\00:25:05.47
embryos from a number
of different creatures
00:25:05.50\00:25:07.20
and putting them together.
00:25:07.24\00:25:08.57
And that was
published in, Science, in 1998.
00:25:08.60\00:25:11.01
It was published in, The Journal
of Embryology, I think, earlier,
00:25:11.04\00:25:13.88
but it got into, Science.
00:25:13.91\00:25:15.84
The journal, Science, is
one of the top science journals
00:25:15.88\00:25:18.71
in the world, with,
Nature; so if you get published
00:25:18.75\00:25:21.08
in that journal, you
get a lot of brownie points.
00:25:21.12\00:25:22.95
So that has definitely
been shown to be incorrect now.
00:25:23.15\00:25:28.42
He showed that
that does not occur.
00:25:28.46\00:25:30.36
No human fetus'
have gills at any stage.
00:25:30.46\00:25:34.90
None of these scenarios claimed
by Haeckel actually occur.
00:25:35.20\00:25:40.24
And really, it's morally
wrong that those textbooks
00:25:40.27\00:25:43.81
that should really be up-to-date
are publishing that now.
00:25:43.84\00:25:46.27
Because that was a major
study to investigate that.
00:25:46.31\00:25:49.58
There were multiple authors.
00:25:49.74\00:25:51.08
It was published in major
science journals in 1997, 1998.
00:25:51.11\00:25:55.05
And Dr. Ashton, it sounds
like such an emotive story,
00:25:55.42\00:25:58.59
and it's so convincing on
the surface, but I'm thinking,
00:25:58.62\00:26:02.56
I'm wondering, am I
correct in understanding that
00:26:02.59\00:26:04.76
if our DNA is fully
human right from conception,
00:26:04.99\00:26:09.23
that it wouldn't be scientific
anyway for us to reflect all the
00:26:09.43\00:26:14.70
different
evolutionary stages of the past?
00:26:14.74\00:26:16.97
- Is that
correct? - Yes, spot on.
00:26:17.01\00:26:18.91
And that's a very
interesting characteristic.
00:26:19.11\00:26:23.04
But what makes our DNA
fully human is the big picture
00:26:23.08\00:26:26.55
of the DNA.
00:26:26.58\00:26:27.92
And I guess, what upsets me is
that today authors are producing
00:26:27.98\00:26:33.46
books for young children.
00:26:33.49\00:26:35.32
I saw one titled recently,
I think, Grandmother Fish.
00:26:35.62\00:26:38.66
Something like that.
00:26:38.69\00:26:40.03
And it's teaching young children
that they evolved from fish.
00:26:40.06\00:26:44.60
And I think this is
just so morally wrong.
00:26:44.63\00:26:46.90
We don't have any
mechanism for that,
00:26:46.94\00:26:48.94
we don't have any
geological or paleontological
00:26:48.97\00:26:52.14
evidence for that, and yet this
is being put into young minds.
00:26:52.17\00:26:54.98
And that really upsets me.
00:26:55.01\00:26:57.05
You know, we really appreciate
you just being able to journey
00:26:57.65\00:27:00.72
with us through Darwin's theory
to have a better understanding;
00:27:00.75\00:27:03.99
to understand some of the
sociological, but also the
00:27:04.02\00:27:06.52
scientific aspects as well.
00:27:06.55\00:27:08.59
And you know, you might
have been thinking you wish
00:27:08.82\00:27:11.19
you were here with us to
have this discussion together.
00:27:11.23\00:27:14.20
Well, the good news is
this, you can actually join us.
00:27:14.23\00:27:17.33
Just go to any online book
store right around the world
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and get Dr. John Ashton's
book, Evolution Impossible.
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You can go chapter by chapter.
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You can be one step ahead of us.
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Wouldn't that be great?
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But, you know, it's been
really good to gain a very
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clear understanding
of what Darwin's theory
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of evolution actually was.
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Now that we have a much
better grasp of his theory,
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we can start
asking the question,
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is evolution
impossible, or is it possible?
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Next time we'll be diving
into the smallest living thing;
00:27:45.29\00:27:48.43
the living cell.
00:27:48.46\00:27:49.80
Join us on this exciting
journey of scientific discovery.
00:27:49.83\00:27:52.60