Hello again, and
welcome to another
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exciting segment of "Engage."
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In this series of
programs we've been addressing
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a lot of very relevant issues
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facing young
adults all over the world.
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Joining me today is my
good friend Dan McGrath.
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Dan, how's it
going? Pretty good.
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How are you? Doing all right.
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So, Dan, what are we
gonna be talking about today?
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Well, today we're
looking at faith versus feeling.
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A lot of young people today
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are struggling with their faith.
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Their experience doesn't always
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match up with their theology.
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And so the
tendency is to give up
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the theology for the experience.
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When in reality, we need
to learn how to match the two
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because the Bible
speaks a lot about that.
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And, uh, we have
very special guest today.
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His name is Michael Eihm.
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And Michael
we're glad you're here.
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Thanks for coming.
How're you doing today?
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I'm really good.
How's it going, Michael?
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Michael, we're very
happy that you're here.
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Um, I know you. And
Dan knows you, of course.
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Michael, we've
been-- this is of course
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a young adult
program, we've been
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addressing young adults have had
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many different guests
that have been young adults.
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And how--do you
consider yourself a young adult?
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Absolutely. Absolutely?
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If I feel that from the ages of
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one to ninety-nine,
you're a young adult.
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Oh, well, then you
qualify. You qualify that.
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So, Michael, for those that are
not familiar with who you are,
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maybe just kind of
share a little bit about
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what you're currently
doing, where you're from,
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just a little so we
get a gist of who you are.
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Well, currently I live in
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a tiny little box
in Berrien Springs.
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Box 403. Tiny little box?
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That's right. No,
I'm in Berrien Springs.
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What're you doing
in Berrien Springs?
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I'm at Andrews University.
You're at Andrews University?
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And you're not in your
20s? I'm not in my 20s.
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And you're at
Andrews University?
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I'm at Andrews University. Wow.
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Undergraduate. Undergraduate.
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You're taking
theology? Awesome. Yeah.
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Went back to school to finish up
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of what God had started in me.
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And are you
originally from Berrien Springs?
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No, I'm not. Where
are you originaally from?
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Wisconsin.
You're from Wisconsin.
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So not too far from
Berrien Springs? No.
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So I understand
that not only are you
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a student in the
undergraduate program there,
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but you're also involved
in something there with--
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what are you involved with?
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I'm the president
of the AMA which is
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Andrews Ministerial Association.
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It's a club of the
religion department there.
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Okay, so is it kind
of like a campus club
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that facilitates
programs, events?
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Yeah, we work
with the young theology
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and religion students. Okay.
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And we're bringing
programming to them
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and pastors of the campus
to talk about issues that face
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them or that they will
be facing in the ministry.
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Nice, nice. Well, Michael,
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we're really excited to
have you and, of course,
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because of the nature of
our program, well, you know,
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time is very
limited but we are gonna
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talk about your
story a little bit.
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And we're also gonna
kinda talk a little about
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this whole issue
with faith versus feeling.
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And how young people
get overwhelmed by feelings
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and sometimes
it's very difficult
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to make rational
decisions, but I understand
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for those that
are not gonna able to
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listen to the whole program.
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And because we're
not gonna have the time
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to get into all
the intricate details.
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I understand that your
story has been published
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in a magazine
is what I've heard.
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Is this true? What
magazine is your story in?
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Well, it's a
magazine that was published
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by the communications
department at Andrews.
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It's called "Envision Magazine."
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And in it, they
have different stories
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of the students on campus.
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And it is written and edited
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and all put
together by students.
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And, yeah, so
my story was in it.
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So some of the--
not only are there--
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'cause I've had
actually seen the magazine.
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So not only is your story there,
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but you also have
some pictures in there.
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Oh, we're gonna talk about that.
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So we're gonna talk
a little bit about that
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because when I saw the magazine,
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I said, "That,
that cannot be Michael."
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And indeed it was Michael.
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So, Michael, let's
talk, let's start by talking
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a little about
this issue with feeling.
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What is it about feelings
that always seem to detour
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young Christians in their faith?
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You know, why is
it that we tend to,
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as young adults,
always fall into feeling?
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Now, of course, you're
not--you're young at heart.
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And, of course,
but you've been--
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you've been a young adult.
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You know the challenges of that.
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Why is that feel--
why is it that feelings
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are so easily--why are
we a easy victim, I guess,
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young adults for
feelings to kinda take over
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and just kinda
lead us out of control?
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Well, I think it's natural
that we want to feel things.
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We want to taste
things. We want to see things.
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We want to be like Thomas.
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The Doubting
Thomas as he's called
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who needed to feel or see Jesus
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and His scars and
all that, you know?
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And so we base
everything on that.
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Interesting. So
we're kind of like,
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we wanna see things tangible.
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We wanna be able to
touch and feel, sometimes--
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And then we
believe. And then we believe.
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And sometimes when we
don't have that there,
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we tend to lose faith and then
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just kind of roll our feelings.
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So tell us about
maybe your home life.
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What was it like,
you know, growing up?
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Did you grow up an Adventist?
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Or, you know, tell us
little bit about yourself.
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Yeah, I grew up an Adventist.
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Though my mom was the Adventist.
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My dad wasn't stepfather.
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And, uh, went to
public school most of time.
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And then went to Wisconsin
Academy my senior year.
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And then I went
across the lake and I was
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at Andrews
University. So wait a second.
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You went to
Andrews University twice?
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Now this is your second
time at Andrews University?
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So, what did you originally
go to Andrews University for?
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What were you
studying? Theology.
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You were taking
theology? Really?
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So how long did you
last in Andrews University?
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Uh, not long. I was
there for about a semester.
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I left. Um, I was having
issues, and, uh, with faith.
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And I'm looking at everyone
else and I'm just not having
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or feeling what they're feeling.
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You know? So evidently,
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if I'm not feeling what
they're feeling, I left.
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So then you went
to Andrews University
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and then you just weren't--
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you were having an
issue with your feeling.
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It didn't feel right. So
why didn't it feel right?
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What was it
about the environment
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or even the beliefs that
didn't jive with your feelings?
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Well, you know, when they
would sing songs, you know,
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and we'd go to chapel
and everyone's singing,
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I wasn't feeling
what they were singing.
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When we sit in
class and people would
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passionately talk
about things and about,
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you know, these
realms of God and all that.
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I wasn't feeling
that. And so I felt if
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I wasn't feeling
it, I didn't have faith.
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It wasn't for me. Wow.
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So I left. So where did you go?
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You left, where'd you go to?
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I went to Madison, Wisconsin.
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And I thought I
would go to school there
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and get involved
with a sports program
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and, you know,
finish a degree there.
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So when you went to
a Public University,
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did you--did you gain
your faith or what happened?
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I never made it to classes.
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I started hanging
out in clubs there.
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And I started going
for other feeling there.
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I started feeling
what the world was feeling.
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So it would be like
drinks and, you know--
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So you started
drinking, started taking drugs.
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Right. Where did
you end up working?
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Well, that took me, I ended
up working at a night club.
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And I had just more an
interest in rock and roll.
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And so basically, in
short, went in rock and roll
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and for 30 years I
was in rock and roll.
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For the better part of 30 years
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and I toured with rock groups.
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So how did your
mother-- you know, of course,
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your mother is the
religious one in the home.
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Um, you went to Andrews,
you left to go to school
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that you eventually didn't make
it to your classes, et cetera.
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How did she react to
your deviation and your
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detour and all of these
vices and different things?
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Well, of course, you know,
like all mothers, you know,
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I mean, she was a
little disappointed.
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But as a loving
Christian, she kept praying
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and she kept
encouraging me to consider
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different things
in that, you know.
00:07:44.13\00:07:46.05
And write me nice letters and,
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you know, that I
still have actually.
00:07:48.84\00:07:52.00
But, yeah, I
just continued on and,
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you know, it was
pretty sad at points.
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I think that as
I went through life
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what I had put her through.
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I mean, 'cause I
would call her up--
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I had a very open
relationship with her.
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And she says, "Oh, tell me
what's going on in your life."
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And so I would. And sometimes,
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I think there's some
things that should not be said.
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You know, because
it really tried her.
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So were you the only
sib-- were you the only child?
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Or did you have
siblings as well?
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Yes, with my
mother and my stepfather,
00:08:18.47\00:08:22.17
there was me, of course.
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And then I had a sister.
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Or have a sister named Randi.
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And then I've, uh,
I met my real father
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a few years
later and then I've got
00:08:30.84\00:08:32.49
a whole family over in Colorado.
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So that's another
story. That's another story.
00:08:35.34\00:08:37.42
Well, it sounds like, you know,
00:08:38.87\00:08:40.91
what I'm hearing you say
is that you went to Andrews
00:08:40.92\00:08:43.28
as an Adventist in
theology thinking maybe
00:08:43.29\00:08:46.21
you were gonna be a
pastor in ministry for sometime.
00:08:46.22\00:08:49.08
And then your
experience wasn't matching up
00:08:49.09\00:08:51.76
with what you
thought you--it should be.
00:08:51.77\00:08:54.69
You know, your
feelings were different,
00:08:54.70\00:08:55.78
so you left and you
went to a Public University.
00:08:55.79\00:08:58.13
Then you kind of experimented
00:08:58.14\00:08:59.75
with the wrong
crowd or the wrong drugs,
00:08:59.76\00:09:01.47
and you ended up
in rock and roll.
00:09:01.48\00:09:02.66
Now from that time
forward, are you searching
00:09:02.67\00:09:05.80
to have that
feeling, that longing?
00:09:05.81\00:09:08.09
You know,
what's going on inside?
00:09:08.10\00:09:10.29
Absolutely not.
00:09:10.30\00:09:11.51
It's funny is, you know,
these feelings of the world,
00:09:12.51\00:09:14.85
I mean, they over-talked me.
00:09:14.86\00:09:18.81
I mean, you know, I
started getting more involved,
00:09:18.82\00:09:21.12
you know, with the drinking.
00:09:21.13\00:09:22.21
And that all came on
real slow, it wasn't--I just,
00:09:22.22\00:09:25.01
you know, walked from
Andrews and I walked in the bar
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and said, "Here,
give me a drink."
00:09:27.06\00:09:28.40
So it was gradual.
It was very gradual.
00:09:28.41\00:09:30.17
It actually
started out with water.
00:09:30.18\00:09:31.90
And then it built up from that.
00:09:31.91\00:09:34.50
You went to the bars and
asked for a glass of water?
00:09:34.51\00:09:36.39
Yeah, a glass of water
with a little umbrella in it.
00:09:36.40\00:09:37.84
That's what I
thought it was until
00:09:39.32\00:09:40.29
someone said, "Hey, uh, here."
00:09:40.30\00:09:41.58
And slid me a drink over
and said, "Here, have this."
00:09:41.59\00:09:45.84
And it was a vodka.
00:09:45.85\00:09:47.32
And, well, I drank
that back and spit it out,
00:09:47.33\00:09:49.75
not realizing that it was not
water, you know, vodka's clear.
00:09:49.76\00:09:53.08
But anyways, enough about that,
00:09:53.09\00:09:54.74
it just kind of
took me down that path
00:09:56.74\00:09:58.40
and I just got involved in
00:09:58.41\00:09:59.95
more and more of the
music and the lifestyle.
00:09:59.96\00:10:02.30
And it's a very
self-indulgent lifestyle.
00:10:02.31\00:10:05.51
You know, music,
and basically anything
00:10:06.71\00:10:08.83
that's outside of God
becomes self-indulgence.
00:10:08.84\00:10:11.63
You know, because we
look within ourselves.
00:10:11.64\00:10:13.82
We build everything on feelings.
00:10:14.89\00:10:16.16
And that's what I was doing.
00:10:16.17\00:10:17.18
So my whole
life was for 30 years
00:10:17.19\00:10:19.93
was built on what
made me feel good.
00:10:19.94\00:10:22.65
What made you feel good. Yeah.
00:10:22.66\00:10:23.66
Now did you
always feel good though?
00:10:23.67\00:10:25.82
When you were involved--
is it, was it 20 years,
00:10:25.83\00:10:28.05
how long were you
in this lifestyle?
00:10:28.06\00:10:29.25
Yeah, I'd say- I would say, um,
00:10:29.26\00:10:30.60
I would say...been in
rock and roll about 17 years,
00:10:30.61\00:10:33.85
you know, 20
years of-professionally.
00:10:33.86\00:10:35.97
'Cause it sounds
like you kinda pursued
00:10:35.98\00:10:38.59
this lifestyle
because it felt good.
00:10:38.60\00:10:39.96
It feels good. Right.
00:10:39.97\00:10:40.97
But did it always feel
good within those 17 years?
00:10:40.98\00:10:43.99
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I
mean, it did, I mean, it's like,
00:10:46.18\00:10:50.45
you know, I mean,
there are things that,
00:10:50.46\00:10:51.57
you know, you-- if
you weren't feeling good,
00:10:51.58\00:10:53.83
you take a pill for this.
00:10:53.84\00:10:55.02
You know, off you--
So then when moments came
00:10:55.03\00:10:57.83
where you didn't feel
good, like maybe the morning
00:10:57.84\00:10:59.64
after a big
party or what have you,
00:10:59.65\00:11:01.43
then you took something
00:11:01.44\00:11:02.79
to kind of take
the bad feeling away.
00:11:02.80\00:11:06.82
So it's almost like you
were escaping the feelings
00:11:06.83\00:11:09.87
that sometimes would
emerge, that weren't good.
00:11:09.88\00:11:11.88
Yeah, well, those, I
mean, you would have feelings.
00:11:11.89\00:11:13.09
I remember being
at an ACDC concert
00:11:13.10\00:11:15.89
and standing in the
wings and not too long
00:11:15.90\00:11:19.01
after I left
Andrews and I hadthought,
00:11:19.02\00:11:22.60
it was a Friday night.
00:11:22.61\00:11:23.86
And I remember
looking out over the crowd,
00:11:23.87\00:11:25.23
I see all their
lighters on and I thought, man,
00:11:25.24\00:11:27.35
tonight they're probably back
at Andrews, former students.
00:11:27.36\00:11:31.48
They're, you
know, pastors young--
00:11:31.49\00:11:33.25
to be young pastors,
had their shoes all shined
00:11:33.26\00:11:36.04
and they're in bed and
they're looking forward
00:11:36.05\00:11:37.75
to waking up for being
involved in the Sabbath.
00:11:37.76\00:11:39.92
While I'm here, you know,
00:11:39.93\00:11:41.74
hundreds of miles away partying.
00:11:41.75\00:11:43.91
And this was to be my
life, and those thoughts
00:11:43.92\00:11:47.13
would--I'm not gonna
say they didn't escape me,
00:11:47.14\00:11:49.29
because they were always there.
00:11:49.30\00:11:50.27
The Sabbath issues were there.
00:11:50.28\00:11:51.49
I mean, you couldn't help
but think those for some reason.
00:11:51.50\00:11:55.11
But pretty soon, I just
got to the point that, um,
00:11:55.12\00:11:58.79
when you asked about
my mom and I called her up
00:11:58.80\00:12:00.66
and I said, "Listen,
take my name off the books.
00:12:00.67\00:12:04.57
You know, get a hold of the
church and have me removed."
00:12:04.58\00:12:07.78
By that time, I was
doing stuff like Ozzy Osbourne.
00:12:07.79\00:12:10.11
It was in the newspaper,
the things that he was doing.
00:12:10.12\00:12:12.65
And my mom was
saying, "This guy, uh,
00:12:12.66\00:12:14.53
he's not really living right."
00:12:14.54\00:12:17.16
And I said, "Yeah,
take my name off the books,"
00:12:17.17\00:12:19.63
because I didn't want to
have this with the lifestyle
00:12:19.64\00:12:23.31
that I was leading
be represented, I mean,
00:12:23.32\00:12:27.98
I actually, point blank is
if something happened to me,
00:12:27.99\00:12:30.02
if I died, I didn't
want my obituary to say,
00:12:30.03\00:12:31.90
"Oh, he was an
Adventist." Right.
00:12:31.91\00:12:33.69
Because I love, you know,
my friends were back at school
00:12:33.70\00:12:37.33
and my mom and all that,
that I did not wanna blight
00:12:38.36\00:12:41.65
the Adventist with
my type of lifestyle.
00:12:41.66\00:12:43.63
So take me off the book. Wow.
00:12:43.64\00:12:45.56
So now in that
lifestyle, of course,
00:12:45.57\00:12:47.40
I understand you
traveled all over the world.
00:12:47.41\00:12:49.68
Well, not
necessarily all over the world.
00:12:49.69\00:12:51.32
But mostly, you know,
North America, South America.
00:12:51.33\00:12:55.59
You know, didn't
make it to Dominican.
00:12:55.60\00:12:56.70
So at least in the
western hemisphere.
00:12:56.71\00:12:59.55
You traveled North
America and South America.
00:12:59.56\00:13:01.39
Yeah. And you
were involved in what?
00:13:01.40\00:13:03.04
What were you doing traveling?
00:13:03.05\00:13:04.08
Well, basically there was three
things I was involved with.
00:13:04.09\00:13:06.55
Primarily, I was
involved with merchandising.
00:13:06.56\00:13:08.38
And so I was do
merchandise, uh, T-shirts,
00:13:08.39\00:13:10.11
and stuff like
that for the bands.
00:13:10.12\00:13:11.81
For the rockstar
bands. Yeah. Okay.
00:13:12.92\00:13:14.48
And then the second thing
that I would do, is called...
00:13:14.49\00:13:17.89
Well, I guess you'd say
00:13:20.98\00:13:21.98
tour management,
one of the things that--
00:13:21.99\00:13:24.22
So you're the one who
answered the phone calls,
00:13:24.23\00:13:25.77
kind of set up the gigs. Right.
00:13:25.78\00:13:27.39
Make sure the
rooms are of-- you know,
00:13:27.40\00:13:28.74
the hotel rooms or flights.
00:13:28.75\00:13:30.23
So you were an important
person in the rock band,
00:13:32.51\00:13:34.06
'cause if it wasn't for
you they had no place to stay.
00:13:34.07\00:13:36.03
I was a glorified babysitter.
00:13:36.04\00:13:37.36
You were a glorified babysitter.
00:13:37.37\00:13:38.82
That's a good way of putting it.
00:13:38.83\00:13:40.20
What was the
third thing, that, uh--
00:13:40.21\00:13:41.85
Well, the other
thing I was gonna say
00:13:41.86\00:13:42.98
was that I worked
with corporate sponsorship.
00:13:42.99\00:13:45.63
And so at that
time, especially in 80s-
00:13:45.64\00:13:47.87
I'm dating myself here-is, um-
00:13:47.88\00:13:50.77
We were alive
back then, don't worry.
00:13:50.78\00:13:51.75
Yeah. You guys were-- Mid-80s.
00:13:51.76\00:13:54.31
And, uh, yeah, well, anyways,
00:13:55.82\00:13:57.11
the sports-the
sponsorship at that time
00:13:57.12\00:14:00.48
involved with
corporations like Rolling Stones
00:14:00.49\00:14:04.33
with like, Jovan,
um, cologne and all that.
00:14:04.34\00:14:07.89
No one probably
knows what that is anymore.
00:14:07.90\00:14:09.79
Or David Bowie with
the Sony Music, Holla Note,
00:14:09.80\00:14:14.19
Canada Dry, you
know, various groups
00:14:14.20\00:14:17.45
were involved with
these, uh, corporations.
00:14:17.46\00:14:21.81
And so I would go out
as a corporate liaison
00:14:21.82\00:14:24.37
between the businessmen,
the suits, and the long-hairs.
00:14:24.38\00:14:27.97
The long hairs. And, uh, yeah.
00:14:27.98\00:14:29.53
So, I mean, Michael,
that sounds like a blast.
00:14:29.54\00:14:32.24
Sounds like you were
living the time of your life.
00:14:32.25\00:14:33.73
What happened? What happened?
00:14:35.03\00:14:36.05
How did you-- in
the 17 years or plus
00:14:36.06\00:14:39.38
that you were involved
in that. What happened?
00:14:39.39\00:14:41.76
What happened the
17th year, uh, so to speak?
00:14:41.77\00:14:44.26
All right.
00:14:44.27\00:14:45.43
Um, well, I'll keep this short,
00:14:45.44\00:14:47.32
'cause let's save
it for a book, but--
00:14:47.33\00:14:49.47
Or the magazine
that's published.
00:14:49.48\00:14:50.45
Or the magazine, yeah.
00:14:50.46\00:14:51.52
Um, basically is
that one night in a club
00:14:51.53\00:14:55.27
after many years of
what I've been through,
00:14:55.28\00:14:58.32
you know, like five
years ago, six years ago.
00:14:58.33\00:15:01.34
I, was, in an adult nightclub,
running an adult nightclub.
00:15:01.35\00:15:07.12
And I started considering
where my life had taken me.
00:15:07.13\00:15:11.48
And I was also considering
the people that I was
00:15:11.49\00:15:14.16
working with in
where their lives were at.
00:15:14.17\00:15:16.75
And I started
realizing that every night,
00:15:16.76\00:15:19.93
different person on the
stage or sitting around them
00:15:19.94\00:15:21.99
or dancing on the stage or
the bartenders and all that.
00:15:22.00\00:15:24.72
But same kind of
conversations going on.
00:15:24.73\00:15:26.97
You know, every night different
person, same conversation.
00:15:26.98\00:15:30.90
And the din of
all this, you know,
00:15:30.91\00:15:32.47
started to effect me and
I thought it was all vanity.
00:15:32.48\00:15:35.45
And I thought they are all vain.
00:15:35.46\00:15:38.19
And of course, we
never look at ourselves--
00:15:38.20\00:15:39.91
Right. Outward thing.
00:15:39.92\00:15:41.23
We look at the outward thing.
00:15:41.24\00:15:42.54
Until one night I
applied that to myself.
00:15:42.55\00:15:46.16
You know, am I vain?
00:15:46.17\00:15:47.48
And it shot back to me, saying,
00:15:47.49\00:15:48.81
"Well, you're the
vainest one of them all."
00:15:48.82\00:15:50.94
And I went home at night,
00:15:50.95\00:15:54.14
thinking about
this, put on the TV.
00:15:55.63\00:15:57.39
Nothing on TV but a
black gospel preacher.
00:15:57.40\00:16:00.20
And he started
talking about vanity.
00:16:00.21\00:16:03.51
And took me to Ecclesiastes.
00:16:03.52\00:16:05.66
You know, and so
I ended up reading
00:16:05.67\00:16:07.03
Ecclesiastes and
it really spoke to me.
00:16:07.04\00:16:09.40
And after that, several
months after that, I mean,
00:16:09.41\00:16:12.88
I left the club
actually about five weeks later,
00:16:12.89\00:16:15.65
just walked out on all that.
00:16:15.66\00:16:17.50
And then six months later,
I got ready to get baptized.
00:16:17.51\00:16:21.72
Wow. So wait a
second, wait a second.
00:16:21.73\00:16:23.83
Wow, that was a bit fast. Yes.
00:16:23.84\00:16:25.55
Six months after that, you
were ready to get baptized. How?
00:16:25.56\00:16:29.03
How would you-how'd you
get prepared for baptism?
00:16:29.04\00:16:30.86
Well, I had left club.
00:16:30.87\00:16:35.23
And then I just decided that
what I'll do for four months
00:16:35.24\00:16:38.42
is that I'll do is read the
Bible and work out at a gym.
00:16:38.43\00:16:41.11
And that's how I
started doing that,
00:16:41.12\00:16:42.38
but then I decided
that I need a community.
00:16:42.39\00:16:44.95
I had answer--or I had
questions I needed to ask.
00:16:44.96\00:16:48.38
And so I didn't want nothing
to do with the Adventists.
00:16:48.39\00:16:51.01
Right. Growing
up as an Adventist-
00:16:51.02\00:16:52.32
Adventist and all that,
00:16:52.33\00:16:53.38
you know, I
didn't want to do that.
00:16:53.39\00:16:55.03
You know, I had
some issues there.
00:16:55.04\00:16:56.50
And so I went to a
nondenominational church.
00:16:56.51\00:16:59.29
Long story short on that.
00:16:59.30\00:17:00.79
What's crazy is that
they turned out to be
00:17:02.05\00:17:04.08
a bunch of
ex-Adventists. Oh, wow.
00:17:04.09\00:17:06.50
So you went--So let me
understand this correctly.
00:17:06.51\00:17:08.81
So you didn't want--nothing
to do with the Adventists,
00:17:08.82\00:17:11.88
you went to a
nondenominational church
00:17:11.89\00:17:13.73
to avoid the Adventists,
and when you went in there,
00:17:13.74\00:17:15.55
you found a lot
of former Adventists.
00:17:15.56\00:17:16.86
And as I was
studying with them, Jay,
00:17:16.87\00:17:19.09
is that I thought, okay,
God led me here, of course,
00:17:19.10\00:17:21.16
and I'm thinking, as
I'll study with them,
00:17:21.17\00:17:22.68
I'll find out what's all
wrong with the Adventists.
00:17:22.69\00:17:24.89
And didn't want nothing
to do with them, you know,
00:17:24.90\00:17:27.46
I couldn't but help get into
these conversations with them,
00:17:27.47\00:17:30.77
because they were
still hurting about things
00:17:30.78\00:17:33.00
and stuff and their decision
00:17:33.01\00:17:34.51
was to leave was
for various reasons.
00:17:34.52\00:17:36.59
But I would find out
what they were and I ended up
00:17:37.28\00:17:40.99
studying my way
back in to Adventist.
00:17:41.00\00:17:43.31
Amen. You know, because--
00:17:43.32\00:17:46.20
Well, can you, you know, just
tell us a little bit, you know,
00:17:46.21\00:17:49.05
maybe you have something
to share from the Bible
00:17:49.06\00:17:50.96
about how faith and
feeling should work because,
00:17:50.97\00:17:54.04
you know, obviously,
from your experience,
00:17:54.05\00:17:56.40
something wasn't
matching up, and now it is.
00:17:56.41\00:17:58.85
And you're back at
Andrews again, you know,
00:17:58.86\00:18:00.37
studying theology which
you've put off for 30 years.
00:18:00.38\00:18:03.31
And fulfilling the Lord's call.
00:18:03.32\00:18:05.34
But what is it about
faith and feeling that
00:18:05.35\00:18:06.89
you think our viewers might,
you know, need to know today?
00:18:06.90\00:18:10.01
Well, I'ma tell you
first, is that we don't get our
00:18:10.02\00:18:12.72
faith from looking
at other people. Okay?
00:18:12.73\00:18:15.66
Our faith comes
from the Word of God.
00:18:16.84\00:18:18.74
Our faith should
be grounded in God.
00:18:18.75\00:18:20.98
And as we read the Bible,
00:18:22.74\00:18:25.04
we need to believe
what's in that Bible. Okay?
00:18:25.05\00:18:28.23
And then hold that dear to us
00:18:28.24\00:18:29.47
when
contradictory things come up,
00:18:29.48\00:18:31.32
we need to go back
to the Bible again.
00:18:31.33\00:18:33.10
But for the viewing audience,
00:18:34.79\00:18:37.28
I would have to say is that
they need to hold on to God,
00:18:37.29\00:18:41.63
and not the
things of this world.
00:18:41.64\00:18:43.42
Meaning that,
staying focused on Him.
00:18:45.30\00:18:49.01
Not--not supplanting that with,
00:18:50.35\00:18:53.10
"Oh, I'm not feeling good today,
00:18:53.11\00:18:54.58
therefore God doesn't love me."
00:18:54.59\00:18:55.58
God is always there.
God always loves you.
00:18:55.59\00:18:57.80
You know, and God is there
00:18:57.81\00:18:58.85
in our Bibles if
we study that, yeah.
00:18:58.86\00:19:01.02
So it seems that
what you're saying is that
00:19:01.03\00:19:02.92
our feelings are very
inconsistent by nature.
00:19:02.93\00:19:05.66
Right. You know,
00:19:05.67\00:19:06.74
one day I wake up and I'm
just whistling very, very happy.
00:19:06.75\00:19:09.88
The next day is I wake
up and "don't come near me."
00:19:09.89\00:19:12.83
You have a cold. Oh, yeah,
00:19:12.84\00:19:14.52
maybe I have a cold.
00:19:14.53\00:19:16.75
But I think what
you're saying is that
00:19:16.76\00:19:18.73
the Bible is
something that is sure,
00:19:18.74\00:19:20.85
something that is consistent,
something that doesn't change.
00:19:20.86\00:19:24.90
You know, the
weather changes our moods,
00:19:24.91\00:19:26.71
but the weather
doesn't change the word.
00:19:26.72\00:19:28.29
So I think if I
hear you correctly,
00:19:28.30\00:19:29.60
I think what you're
saying is if our faith
00:19:29.61\00:19:32.05
is based on the
word and our feelings,
00:19:32.06\00:19:34.66
the word of God is
something that is constant
00:19:34.67\00:19:37.65
and it's not gonna
have that up and down
00:19:37.66\00:19:40.51
inconsistency, but rather,
00:19:40.52\00:19:41.98
is going to be something solid.
00:19:41.99\00:19:44.16
It's gonna be
something substantial.
00:19:44.17\00:19:46.20
Right. Did I hear you right?
00:19:46.21\00:19:47.20
Is that kinda
what you're saying?
00:19:47.21\00:19:48.18
Exactly, exactly.
00:19:48.19\00:19:49.16
In fact, I had a
text here that I brought,
00:19:49.17\00:19:51.46
that's James 1:22
and in James 1:22,
00:19:51.47\00:19:59.24
it says, "But be
doers of the word,
00:19:59.25\00:20:01.54
and not hearers
only, deceiving yourselves.
00:20:01.55\00:20:04.75
For if anyone is a hearer
of the word, and not a doer,
00:20:04.76\00:20:07.51
he is like a man observing
his natural face in a mirror."
00:20:07.52\00:20:11.40
And I think that has a
lot of application there.
00:20:11.41\00:20:13.40
You know, that we need to be
00:20:13.41\00:20:15.37
looking into the face
of God and in the Bible.
00:20:15.38\00:20:19.65
And doing what He says
that we find in the word here.
00:20:19.66\00:20:23.06
And not by what the
natural world tells us to do.
00:20:23.07\00:20:26.61
Yeah, I like this Bible text.
00:20:26.62\00:20:28.38
You know, we
need to be hearers--
00:20:28.39\00:20:29.38
we're not just
hearers, but doers.
00:20:29.39\00:20:31.34
And the very next
verse is because, you know,
00:20:31.35\00:20:33.20
if you observe yourself,
you go away and then you
00:20:33.21\00:20:35.27
immediately forget
what kind of man you are.
00:20:35.28\00:20:36.88
Right. That's right.
00:20:36.89\00:20:37.86
When you look in the
mirror, you forget what you
00:20:37.87\00:20:39.00
look like or, you know,
you forget how much makeup
00:20:39.01\00:20:41.36
you put on or
didn't put on, you know,
00:20:41.37\00:20:42.92
for the TV show, you forget.
00:20:42.93\00:20:45.15
And so, but if you're doing it,
00:20:45.16\00:20:46.77
it's always whether you're
remembering it and living it.
00:20:46.78\00:20:49.80
Now, Michael, let's look
at the counter aspect to this.
00:20:50.94\00:20:54.70
You know,
feelings are important.
00:20:54.71\00:20:57.73
You know, sometimes feelings
00:20:57.74\00:20:58.83
are a gauge that
something is not right.
00:20:58.84\00:21:01.39
You know, you mentioned a
cold or sometimes you feel.
00:21:01.40\00:21:03.98
You call in. Right?
00:21:03.99\00:21:05.78
I'm sure you call in to
your professors and say,
00:21:05.79\00:21:07.70
"Oh, professor,
I'm not feeling good."
00:21:07.71\00:21:09.37
And usually, that
doesn't fly, right?
00:21:10.51\00:21:12.31
But sometimes
when we say, you know,
00:21:12.32\00:21:13.29
"I'm not feeling
good," feelings are sometimes
00:21:13.30\00:21:15.63
a good gauge that
something is not right.
00:21:15.64\00:21:18.03
Something is wrong. So
how do we differentiate?
00:21:18.04\00:21:21.17
The young adults
thinking, well, wait a second,
00:21:21.18\00:21:22.58
you know, I mean, biologically,
00:21:22.59\00:21:23.73
if I don't feel
good, that means that
00:21:23.74\00:21:25.61
there's something
biologically wrong.
00:21:25.62\00:21:27.69
How come it doesn't
work that way spiritually,
00:21:27.70\00:21:29.22
or does it work spiritually?
00:21:29.23\00:21:30.81
That's a good question.
Can it work spiritually?
00:21:30.82\00:21:32.04
Yes, and yes, it does.
00:21:32.05\00:21:34.54
How I would answer
that, first of all,
00:21:34.55\00:21:35.70
we have to look as
faith as an action word.
00:21:35.71\00:21:38.31
As we said there to be
doers of the word, right?
00:21:38.32\00:21:41.87
It's an action word, okay?
00:21:41.88\00:21:43.54
Feelings aren't an action word.
They are what causes action.
00:21:43.55\00:21:47.49
And a lot of
times, in most times,
00:21:47.50\00:21:49.74
feelings of the natural
world are the wrong actions.
00:21:49.75\00:21:52.53
The wrong choices. And so--
00:21:52.54\00:21:55.09
So then faith
would be proactive.
00:21:55.10\00:21:56.66
Feelings would be
reactive. Correct, correct.
00:21:56.67\00:21:59.14
So faith is
actually like an engine.
00:21:59.15\00:22:01.59
Feelings would be like the
cars or the caboose behind it.
00:22:01.60\00:22:05.02
Some days they may be there
and some days they may not.
00:22:05.03\00:22:07.32
But we don't base the
train upon the caboose.
00:22:07.33\00:22:10.63
That's not what's
pushing the train.
00:22:10.64\00:22:12.46
It's the engine of
faith that propels us forward.
00:22:12.47\00:22:17.00
You know, towards God.
00:22:17.01\00:22:18.54
And this is what's
an important thing about
00:22:18.55\00:22:20.97
is that if we
have this faith in God,
00:22:20.98\00:22:23.42
this engine of faith in
God, it's the driving force
00:22:23.43\00:22:27.17
that's within us
for us as Christians.
00:22:27.18\00:22:29.83
We don't need to see certain
things to accept God, you know?
00:22:29.84\00:22:35.95
We have this faith
that leads us forward.
00:22:35.96\00:22:39.87
And any feelings that
come after that out of faith,
00:22:39.88\00:22:42.33
you know, is
possible and it does happen.
00:22:43.83\00:22:46.55
I mean, I know that
there have been times
00:22:46.56\00:22:49.78
that were that I
will think about things
00:22:49.79\00:22:52.48
what God has done for me or
what Christ has done for me.
00:22:52.49\00:22:54.92
You know, where he pulled me
00:22:54.93\00:22:55.90
out of the
lifestyle that I was in.
00:22:55.91\00:22:58.31
And my heart can
weep because of the things
00:22:58.32\00:23:02.79
when I realize, you
know, that what I have done,
00:23:02.80\00:23:05.12
it might have hurt someone
and, um, from my actions.
00:23:05.13\00:23:08.58
And so now my
feelings then are more
00:23:08.59\00:23:11.05
feelings of
repentance, you know,
00:23:11.06\00:23:12.86
the feelings of joy because--
00:23:12.87\00:23:14.48
Which are positive feelings.
They're positive, yeah.
00:23:14.49\00:23:16.52
So it seems what
you're saying is that feelings
00:23:16.53\00:23:18.11
actually can be trained,
if I'm hearing you correctly.
00:23:18.12\00:23:21.27
That sometimes when you focus on
00:23:21.28\00:23:22.34
faith and not feelings,
when you focus on your faith,
00:23:22.35\00:23:25.38
your feelings are
gonna be conditioned,
00:23:25.39\00:23:27.29
they're gonna be transformed,
and they're gonna changed.
00:23:27.30\00:23:29.32
So now you're gonna
feel the right feelings
00:23:29.33\00:23:31.70
of repentance when
you need to repent.
00:23:31.71\00:23:33.50
The right feelings of joy
when you need to have joy.
00:23:33.51\00:23:35.78
And I think
Biblically, when you look at
00:23:35.79\00:23:39.05
the Bible
characters, there are times
00:23:39.06\00:23:41.04
where it didn't feel
good to do the will of God.
00:23:41.05\00:23:43.31
It didn't feel
good to move on forward.
00:23:43.32\00:23:45.03
It didn't feel good for
Moses to go into water and say,
00:23:45.04\00:23:49.48
you know, have the faith that
it was actually gonna split.
00:23:49.49\00:23:51.94
It didn't feel good for Abraham
00:23:51.95\00:23:53.10
to go up that
mountain to sacrifice his son.
00:23:53.11\00:23:55.50
But what came
after was a flood of
00:23:55.51\00:23:58.71
awesome feelings
that were divine,
00:23:58.72\00:24:00.73
that were
celestial, that were inspiring
00:24:00.74\00:24:02.79
and I think if a young person
is struggling with feelings
00:24:02.80\00:24:06.43
to do something that
they know needs to be done,
00:24:06.44\00:24:09.63
I think one encouragement
00:24:09.64\00:24:11.39
is to remember
that after you do that,
00:24:11.40\00:24:13.89
there's gonna be
amazing feelings.
00:24:13.90\00:24:16.44
So don't get
consumed by the feelings
00:24:16.45\00:24:18.84
that you have prior to
doing what you need to do.
00:24:18.85\00:24:22.41
Yeah, I think
that's a good point.
00:24:22.42\00:24:24.14
I know sometimes, you
know, I don't always feel like
00:24:24.15\00:24:27.05
preaching on Sabbath morning,
00:24:27.06\00:24:28.79
but I'm a pastor and
that's what I have to do.
00:24:28.80\00:24:30.27
And I have to do
it every Sabbath.
00:24:31.53\00:24:32.66
So there's some
Sabbaths where I just wake up
00:24:32.67\00:24:34.67
and I wish that I did
not have to preach and--
00:24:34.68\00:24:37.62
We should've put a
DVD in or something.
00:24:37.63\00:24:38.80
You know, I wish, or I've had--
00:24:38.81\00:24:40.43
realized that I
was gonna feel this way
00:24:40.44\00:24:41.44
and got a guest speaker or got
00:24:41.45\00:24:42.55
Jay Rosario to
come to my church.
00:24:42.56\00:24:44.21
And, you know,
but sometimes I think
00:24:44.22\00:24:46.54
the devil will put
that feeling there because
00:24:46.55\00:24:48.28
he knows that this sermon
is gonna have greater results.
00:24:48.29\00:24:50.82
Absolutely. Right.
00:24:50.83\00:24:51.85
And we need to
realize through faith,
00:24:51.86\00:24:53.91
we can see through the
feeling--the bad feeling.
00:24:53.92\00:24:57.93
And press
forward, because we know
00:24:57.94\00:24:59.07
that the Lord is
working. Michael, in 30 seconds,
00:24:59.08\00:25:02.39
what message could
you give to somebody
00:25:02.40\00:25:04.10
viewing our program
right now that is struggling?
00:25:04.11\00:25:07.61
They're kind of tied
down with their feelings.
00:25:07.62\00:25:10.21
They want to do what is
right, but they're just feel--
00:25:10.22\00:25:12.08
they're just
100% out of control,
00:25:12.09\00:25:14.35
and their feelings are
kind of at the driver seat.
00:25:14.36\00:25:16.75
What's the message
that you could give them
00:25:16.76\00:25:18.11
practical message of counsel
00:25:18.12\00:25:20.14
from an experienced
person like yourself?
00:25:20.15\00:25:22.20
First I would say, is pray.
00:25:22.21\00:25:25.02
Pray, pray, pray that
God will impress upon you.
00:25:25.03\00:25:29.60
Impress upon
your heart. You know.
00:25:29.61\00:25:31.70
To let go of those
feelings and go to the faith.
00:25:34.34\00:25:37.07
Go to the faith
that God is there.
00:25:37.08\00:25:38.69
That God is going to
bring you through this.
00:25:38.70\00:25:41.35
He's always there.
00:25:41.36\00:25:42.35
That says basically
what I'd have to say to that,
00:25:44.34\00:25:46.27
you know, that have faith in God
00:25:46.28\00:25:47.87
that He will pull you through.
00:25:47.88\00:25:49.65
And abandon those
feelings. Abandon 'em.
00:25:49.66\00:25:52.39
Just like that, it's almost like
00:25:53.95\00:25:55.15
having the right perspective,
like, if you look at this,
00:25:55.16\00:25:58.81
you're gonna
feel like this. Right.
00:25:58.82\00:26:00.16
If you look at that,
you're gonna feel like this.
00:26:00.17\00:26:01.67
If I look at the possibility,
00:26:01.68\00:26:03.72
if I just dwell upon the
possibility it's a failure
00:26:03.73\00:26:06.58
and discouragement,
I'm gonna feel that way.
00:26:06.59\00:26:08.57
But if I focus on Christ,
00:26:08.58\00:26:10.32
focus on the
possibilities of victory,
00:26:10.33\00:26:11.95
focus on-and that's
why the word is so powerful
00:26:11.96\00:26:13.95
because when you focus on it,
00:26:13.96\00:26:15.38
it has a positive
effect on your life
00:26:15.39\00:26:18.48
and you begin to
feel the proper feelings.
00:26:18.49\00:26:21.00
I think there's so
much that could be touched
00:26:22.14\00:26:23.81
and once again I
just wanna encourage
00:26:23.82\00:26:26.45
those that are
viewing to look up
00:26:26.46\00:26:28.43
the Envision magazines
to get the rest of story.
00:26:28.44\00:26:31.87
Michael, we're so
happy that you're with us.
00:26:31.88\00:26:33.99
And we're really
blessed to have you.
00:26:34.00\00:26:35.32
And you're back at
Andrews and you're gonna be
00:26:35.33\00:26:36.86
graduating very, very
soon, hopefully very, very soon.
00:26:36.87\00:26:41.03
May be there's
somebody watching this program
00:26:41.04\00:26:42.56
who can
definitely resonate with this
00:26:42.57\00:26:44.69
issue of faith versus feeling.
00:26:44.70\00:26:46.68
Maybe you're a young
person that knows that
00:26:46.69\00:26:49.38
you have to do something
that God is asking you to do.
00:26:49.39\00:26:53.07
Maybe God is bringing
conviction upon your hearts.
00:26:53.08\00:26:55.71
Maybe you feel overwhelmed.
00:26:55.72\00:26:57.28
Maybe you feel like
you can't move forward
00:26:57.29\00:26:59.99
because you're
surrounded by your feelings.
00:27:00.00\00:27:02.19
Whatever the situation may be,
00:27:02.20\00:27:03.28
hopefully this
program has encouraged you
00:27:03.29\00:27:05.64
that if you focus
your attention on Christ,
00:27:05.65\00:27:08.17
if you focus your
attention on positive things,
00:27:08.18\00:27:10.74
then your feelings,
right feelings will follow.
00:27:10.75\00:27:13.76
Look at the powerful
examples of scripture,
00:27:13.77\00:27:16.42
look at Moses, look at Abraham,
00:27:16.43\00:27:17.86
but more
importantly, look at Jesus.
00:27:17.87\00:27:19.69
Jesus was on the
cross of Calvary.
00:27:19.70\00:27:21.44
And prior to going
to the cross of Calvary,
00:27:21.45\00:27:23.12
He was in the
Garden of Gethsemane
00:27:23.13\00:27:24.20
and it didn't feel
good to him to move forward.
00:27:24.21\00:27:26.21
In fact, he prayed three times
00:27:26.22\00:27:27.31
"my father, my
father is it possible?
00:27:27.32\00:27:29.15
If it is possible, let
this cup pass from me."
00:27:29.16\00:27:31.06
But then He said, "Not my will,
00:27:31.07\00:27:32.98
but your will be done."
00:27:32.99\00:27:34.23
And because of the joy
that was set before Him,
00:27:34.24\00:27:36.26
because He saw the
results of what the cross
00:27:36.27\00:27:38.90
was going to do, He saw
millions of redeemed people
00:27:38.91\00:27:41.88
saved because of that sacrifice.
00:27:41.89\00:27:43.76
And that's exactly
what we need to do.
00:27:43.77\00:27:45.04
We need to follow
in that same example.
00:27:45.05\00:27:47.69
Look ahead by faith and
recognize that after you
00:27:47.70\00:27:50.88
obey the Lord,
there's gonna be a flood
00:27:50.89\00:27:53.37
of powerful and
positive feelings.
00:27:53.38\00:27:55.58
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:27:55.59\00:27:57.27
Hopefully, we can
see you next time.
00:27:57.28\00:27:59.38
God bless you. Take care.
00:27:59.39\00:28:01.30