Hello again, my
name is Jay Rosario
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and welcome to Engage.
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In this show, we are
going to address the relevant
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and sometimes
controversial subjects
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that are facing young
Christians all over the world.
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Joining us today is my
good friend Dan McGrath,
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who is actually our co-host
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and our guest today is Ezequiel.
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And for those of you
that don't know you Dan,
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now tell us a
little bit about yourself.
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Well, Jay, I have been
your friend for a long time.
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It has been for
a while, hasn't it?
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Yes, it's been for a while,
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that's a good thing I guess.
Yeah, that's a good thing.
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And I also pastor in the
Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
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and today we have our
friend Ezequiel with us.
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And why don't you tell
something about yourself?
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My name is Ezequiel,
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I am an associate
pastor in Birmingham,
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Alabama and I am actually
originally from California
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though but I am
in the south now.
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Still enjoying the heat, aha.
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Well, yeah, I mean humidity.
Well, I think humidity.
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Yeah, because I was
in Central California,
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where it gets like
110, but its dry heat.
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That's where I lived,
up in that area. All right.
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Well, we are glad that
you are back here with us,
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you've joined us for an episode.
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Today we are gonna continue
our conversation on atheism.
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There are a lot of
people that have questions
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about what they believe
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and we heard our testimony
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about Ezequiel's
experience with atheism.
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But now we want to get
more into the actual arguments,
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the apologetics, the philosophy
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behind how to reach an atheist.
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And what to do when they
challenge us with questions?
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And so we're glad
to have you back here.
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We're glad that
we can begin again
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and just why don't we let Jay,
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why don't you
start us off today.
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Well, Ezequiel
you know, like I said
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before atheism is a
very intimidating subject.
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Yeah. And I think it was very,
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why we mentioned that
its probably intimidating
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because maybe we
haven't explored it,
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maybe we haven't
listened to atheists,
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and listen to their questions,
listen to their rebel etc.
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But for those who may be are not
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fully familiar with atheism.
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How, what is atheism?
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And how do we define
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and how would
you define atheism?
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Well, I define
atheism as a world view.
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What is a world view?
Maybe a lack in the world view.
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World view is a prospect
that you have on life in general
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and world view
is way we're arching
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more than just a
couple of answers
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is what defines all the answers
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that you are
gonna have about life.
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For it's a perspective.
It's a perspective, yes.
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It's the view of
the world we can say.
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Exactly, it's... World view.
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Its like glasses
if you wear you know,
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dark glasses,
the world looks dark,
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if you wear rose glass,
the world looks rosy you know.
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So what does the
atheistic glasses look like?
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Well, if you're
trying to define you know,
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its truly tricky,
because they have actually
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transitioned to a
different definition.
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I know that
classical atheism used to talk
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about the propositional
truth of the denial of God.
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That's where we
get a' theism from.
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A is a negation of theis.
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Right, so theism of course
is the belief in God. In God.
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Yeah, so they're negating
that God does not exist.
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It's a propositional truth.
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But now the second
definition was come up,
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it actually came
out by Anthony Flew,
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who actually now
converted and he is atheist.
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He is not so an
atheist but a deist.
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Now the difference is
that he doesn't believe
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in a personal
God, but he believes
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there's a power out there.
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So he went from
atheism to deism. Yeah.
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And what is the
new definition there.
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Well his
definition is interesting
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because his
definition is very influential.
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He is one of the influential
philosophers of our century.
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He actually said that atheism
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is not the propositional
truth of the denial of God,
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but more so perspective
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based on the lack
of evidence of God.
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Okay, so it's not necessarily
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that we are fully convinced
that God doesn't exist,
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it's just with the
evidence that we have,
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we don't have enough
evidence to believe in God.
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Yeah, imagine a core procedure.
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For example, what, is
it K.C. Anthony. Right.
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The reason he let it goes
because of lack of evidence.
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So essentially Anthony
Flew saying the same thing,
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the reason I am letting God go
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is because of
lack of evidence. Okay.
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So he is not saying
that he has arguments
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against the existence of
God, it's the lack of evidence
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make something
that there is no God.
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Right and of course
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there is a lot of
foundational pillars of atheism
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and I think the age
old question Ezequiel,
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is this whole issue of
pain, this whole issue of evil,
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this whole issue of suffering
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and so be quiet honest
even myself as a theist,
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as a believer in God.
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Sometimes they kind of
really rocks your, you know,
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theological world view as
you mentioned about world view.
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Atheist at times say, you know,
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if God does exist,
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then why there
is so much of evil
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and suffering in this world.
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If God is all
powerful, then doesn't
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he have the capabilities
to remove evil and suffering?
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And Ezequiel, for a young person
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that's watching this program
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who has this doubt and
this argument in their mind,
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how would we answer that
question, that arguments?
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You know, recently I saw a video
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that give a really
good response to that.
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Its online, this
guy named Ty Gibson
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came out with his video series
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and his
testimony talks about how
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he expected God
to be like superman,
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where He comes in and you know,
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He punches the bad guy
and He takes the bad guy down
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and then He stops
the world from suffering.
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And he said, he wanted
God to be a God of force.
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But word of control was
not God's ultimate purpose
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and that's a
good question asked.
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Word of control is not
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God's ultimate
purpose, then what is?
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And obviously the Bible
talks about how God is love
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and how he wants
humanity to love Him.
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As a matter of
fact when asked Jesus,
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what's the greatest commandment
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we talked about last time
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is to love God
with all your heart,
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your mind and your soul.
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That's the ultimate requirement
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that God has from you.
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So how does love
come into the factor?
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Well, you can't
force love, program it.
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In order for love to be love
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it has to have a
free choice, right. Right.
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Like you can't
hold someone at gunpoint
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and say marry me and love
me for the rest of your life
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or be my best friend. Right.
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And you can't hold
someone at gunpoint
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and say listen donate blood,
because this person is dying
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and then you
would be a good person.
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There won't be a good person
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because they are
forced into it, right?
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So it can't be programmed force
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and obviously
whenever you program
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you're math to say I
love you in the morning.
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It doesn't mean that
you feel very loved by,
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you programmed
that to say that. Right.
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So it has to be
your own free volition.
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So God is not looking for robots
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that are programmed
to say I love you God.
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He is looking for robot
you could have free choice,
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but now imagine this.
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Out of all the greatest possible
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beings that could exist.
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who is the greatest
possible being that exist,
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I am asking you guys now. God.
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God. God, right. Now get this.
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The attribute
that the Bible talks
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about that is his
greatest attribute is what?
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Love. Love, now get this.
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That means that
the greatest possible
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experience that you could have
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in this universe is
an experience of love.
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The only way you
could even get close
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to having this
amazing experience of love
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is by having freedom of choice.
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So God is trying to
make it possible for us
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to have the best
of all experiences
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where we get actual experience
a part of who he is. Love.
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Okay. so that
when you are saying
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then it is that God took a risk
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essentially in creating
us because He then create us
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preprogrammed to do everything
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that He want us to do
rather we are free more legions,
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we have the ability to
choose whatever we want
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and of course that's the risk.
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So does that explain
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why is that we live
in an imperfect world.
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Would that be the explanation?
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You know, the Bible
talks about the fall
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and that definitely
gets into why we actually see
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what on world now
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and but free world explains
why the fall even happen
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in the first place like
why would God even allow
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the possibility of
fall because a lot of people
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actually want
God to be controlling
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and to stop every point.
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But if He was controlling,
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then ultimately
you wouldn't have a God
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that's allowing the
dice roll where they may,
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He is controlling the issue.
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Therefore it can't
ultimately be love.
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He has to let the cookie crumble
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the way it's gonna crumble.
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Even though it hurts.
Yeah, even though it hurts.
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Even though it's
painful, even though
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it wasn't the original
plan, they got in Genesis.
00:08:00.79\00:08:02.56
So God actually
made it possible for us
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to not believe in Him. Right.
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To say there is no God.
00:08:07.18\00:08:08.73
Even though, He
could have said, you know,
00:08:08.74\00:08:10.23
everyone is gonna
know that there is a God.
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He made it possible for us
to choose to believe either way.
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Yeah, His issue again is
not ultimate control, its love.
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And I mean think about
this, parents are the same way.
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Whenever they have children,
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they control to a certain point.
00:08:23.43\00:08:25.42
But ultimately when
they get to certain age,
00:08:25.43\00:08:26.98
they have to get them go
and make their own choices
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whether they are good
choices or bad choices
00:08:28.85\00:08:30.30
because
anything else will hinder
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and harm their
growth as individuals.
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Essentially the
same thing with God.
00:08:35.67\00:08:37.57
So what about the
person who says, well you know,
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that's fine, that's fine enough.
00:08:39.93\00:08:43.14
Why doesn't just
God kill the devil?
00:08:43.15\00:08:44.75
I mean it seems like the
devil is kind of like the,
00:08:44.76\00:08:47.96
you know, the villain in this
great war between good and evil.
00:08:47.97\00:08:51.42
If indeed God
exist, and if we are saying
00:08:51.43\00:08:54.28
that you know, there was a fall
00:08:54.29\00:08:55.70
and of course the fall
was insinuated by Satan
00:08:55.71\00:08:58.21
and of course Adam and Eve fell.
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Why doesn't God
just put an end to it?
00:09:00.50\00:09:02.08
Why doesn't God
just kill the devil
00:09:02.09\00:09:03.63
and just settle
it like what is it
00:09:03.64\00:09:05.39
that He is waiting for why, why?
00:09:05.40\00:09:08.28
That's a good question. Yeah,
00:09:08.29\00:09:09.56
its funny that you
asked that question
00:09:09.57\00:09:10.68
because even as an
atheist growing up,
00:09:10.69\00:09:12.59
actually never
even thought about that.
00:09:12.60\00:09:14.40
But as you read the answer
00:09:14.41\00:09:15.87
before I even had the
question come to mind.
00:09:15.88\00:09:17.61
And I thought of
myself this is meaningful.
00:09:17.62\00:09:19.66
I was reading a thick book,
00:09:19.67\00:09:21.98
Great Controversy by Ellen White
00:09:21.99\00:09:23.80
and I think the section
was Liberty of Conscience.
00:09:23.81\00:09:27.47
And one of the things
they mentioned is a fact
00:09:27.48\00:09:29.81
that the devil was not destroyed
00:09:29.82\00:09:32.65
because ultimately
God did not want to scare
00:09:32.66\00:09:34.78
the rest of the on
looking universe to think
00:09:34.79\00:09:36.45
that all He was about control.
00:09:36.46\00:09:38.76
He wanted the universe
to be able to worship Him
00:09:38.77\00:09:41.26
and love instead of fear.
00:09:41.27\00:09:43.94
Because imagine,
okay someone accuses me
00:09:43.95\00:09:46.76
of being a warlord or you know,
00:09:46.77\00:09:48.60
a mobster and all
sudden the next day
00:09:48.61\00:09:50.32
that person goes missing.
00:09:50.33\00:09:51.98
That just seems to
contribute to the fact
00:09:51.99\00:09:53.96
that I am probably--You
are probably involve in that.
00:09:53.97\00:09:55.80
They accuse me, yeah exactly.
00:09:55.81\00:09:57.42
So this guy comes up
and he starts accusing God.
00:09:57.43\00:10:00.39
That Satan comes up
and start accusing God
00:10:00.40\00:10:02.12
and this is a type of
person that he thinks he is.
00:10:02.13\00:10:04.32
God acts a certain way
almost seems to reinforce
00:10:04.33\00:10:07.58
who Satan is accusing Him to be.
00:10:07.59\00:10:10.23
So God has to stand back at him,
00:10:10.24\00:10:11.74
almost let it
develop in order to show
00:10:11.75\00:10:13.69
the on looking universe
00:10:13.70\00:10:14.71
that His choice
is the best choice.
00:10:14.72\00:10:17.58
Well, you know,
one of the reasons
00:10:17.59\00:10:19.50
that we are
talking about you know,
00:10:19.51\00:10:20.82
God is love is because people
think that pain is the reason,
00:10:20.83\00:10:23.48
pain and sufferings are reasons
00:10:23.49\00:10:24.54
why God can't exist,
00:10:24.55\00:10:25.55
because God is
all powerful you know,
00:10:25.79\00:10:27.84
why can't He stop the pain?
00:10:27.85\00:10:29.98
And we have kind
of answered that.
00:10:29.99\00:10:31.04
But what about the
people who say you know,
00:10:31.05\00:10:33.35
God doesn't exist
because lack of information.
00:10:33.36\00:10:36.22
Lack of information,
you know, that's a good one,
00:10:36.23\00:10:38.13
because ultimately
there is this dictum
00:10:38.14\00:10:41.18
that I have
really come to favor.
00:10:41.19\00:10:43.55
It says "Evidence of absence
is not absence of evidence."
00:10:43.56\00:10:48.19
Now what am I talking about.
00:10:48.20\00:10:50.15
But what that means
is that just because
00:10:50.16\00:10:51.74
there is a lack of evidence,
00:10:51.75\00:10:53.07
it doesn't mean
that that's not the case.
00:10:53.08\00:10:55.37
Think about this for example.
00:10:55.38\00:10:57.42
In archeology, I took the class,
00:10:57.43\00:11:00.06
and we talked about
how you never make a case
00:11:00.07\00:11:03.35
based on absence of evidence
00:11:03.36\00:11:04.66
because it could
always pop up, right.
00:11:04.67\00:11:07.47
So ultimately when
you're making a case
00:11:07.48\00:11:08.90
based on the absence of evidence
00:11:08.91\00:11:10.25
which is what Anthony Flew
00:11:10.26\00:11:11.38
does in his
definition of atheism.
00:11:11.39\00:11:13.98
Ultimately you're setting up
yourself in a risky situation
00:11:13.99\00:11:16.42
because evidence
could always pop up.
00:11:16.43\00:11:18.21
Now the only other issues
when you are making the case
00:11:18.22\00:11:21.78
saying that God
does not exist for sure,
00:11:21.79\00:11:24.56
you have a huge case to prove.
00:11:24.57\00:11:27.07
I mean think about this,
00:11:27.08\00:11:28.17
if I told you that there is
no such thing as gold in Alaska,
00:11:28.18\00:11:30.61
what would you have
to do to prove that.
00:11:30.62\00:11:32.03
We have to go to
Alaska and start digging.
00:11:32.04\00:11:33.64
Yes, start digging, right.
00:11:33.65\00:11:34.98
Looking people's molars to
see if have gold caps you know,
00:11:34.99\00:11:37.75
you have to do the incredible
to be able to find out,
00:11:37.76\00:11:40.16
it takes a lot.
00:11:40.17\00:11:41.20
But imagine
this, when someone says
00:11:41.21\00:11:42.52
that God does not
exists in this universe.
00:11:42.53\00:11:45.44
What would you have
to do to prove that?
00:11:45.45\00:11:46.83
We have to fly
over the universe.
00:11:46.84\00:11:49.81
Yeah and you have to
have this maximum compacity
00:11:49.82\00:11:52.77
of knowledge where you
know everything from the most
00:11:52.78\00:11:55.61
gigantic
cosmological astronomical body
00:11:55.62\00:12:00.87
to even the
quantum level of atoms
00:12:00.88\00:12:03.85
you understand to a T
end and you understand
00:12:03.86\00:12:06.61
the base on this
knowledge God does not exist.
00:12:06.62\00:12:08.36
Now that's pretty
bold statement you know,
00:12:08.37\00:12:11.29
and arrogantly bold statement,
00:12:11.30\00:12:12.76
so for atheists to make
that it's pretty strong.
00:12:12.77\00:12:15.07
Now what about this Ezequiel,
00:12:15.08\00:12:16.07
may be not the
absence of evidence
00:12:16.08\00:12:17.63
but one just a simple argument
00:12:17.64\00:12:19.66
for how in the world
do you as a Christian
00:12:19.67\00:12:24.07
believe so whole
heartedly in something
00:12:24.08\00:12:27.33
that you fully cannot see.
00:12:27.34\00:12:28.70
In other words,
if adults like us,
00:12:28.71\00:12:31.49
we're young
adults like ourselves,
00:12:31.50\00:12:33.16
we said that we
had an invisible friend
00:12:33.17\00:12:36.12
then obviously we would
also be call certain names,
00:12:36.13\00:12:40.46
certain people have names
00:12:40.47\00:12:41.60
who are grown up
invisible friends.
00:12:41.61\00:12:44.24
But yet essentially that's what
00:12:44.25\00:12:45.70
Christianity appears to be,
you have an invisible friend.
00:12:45.71\00:12:49.17
What do you say
to that young person
00:12:49.18\00:12:51.42
who is intellectual
who says wait a second?
00:12:51.43\00:12:53.24
How can you be so
convinced in believing
00:12:53.25\00:12:55.37
something that you cannot
see? How do you answer that?
00:12:55.38\00:12:58.00
I think that's a
really good question.
00:12:58.01\00:12:59.15
As a matter fact I
think that's one of the number
00:12:59.16\00:13:01.06
one questions
next to the problem
00:13:01.07\00:13:03.03
of the evil and suffering.
00:13:03.04\00:13:05.10
How can you believe in the
God that you cannot see, right?
00:13:05.11\00:13:09.04
Now the issue comes
in and you have ask them
00:13:09.05\00:13:12.74
is there anything
that you believe in
00:13:12.75\00:13:14.02
that you can
experience and you don't see,
00:13:14.03\00:13:15.63
that you don't
touch your five senses.
00:13:15.64\00:13:18.78
You know, because
that's ultimate question
00:13:18.79\00:13:20.12
you have to ask, usually
00:13:20.13\00:13:21.34
the boy say no
because that you know,
00:13:21.35\00:13:23.21
the trying to
escape the argument of God
00:13:23.22\00:13:25.21
not existing and you can't
00:13:25.22\00:13:26.27
experience into
your five senses.
00:13:26.28\00:13:27.96
But if you really,
really hold them to it,
00:13:27.97\00:13:31.48
you could ask some
questions like, for example.
00:13:31.49\00:13:33.32
Do you believe in science?
00:13:33.33\00:13:35.37
You know, usually especially
coming from an atheist
00:13:35.38\00:13:37.40
perspective they will say, yes.
00:13:37.41\00:13:40.08
And then you ask
them what make science go?
00:13:40.09\00:13:42.81
What makes it strong?
00:13:42.82\00:13:44.28
You know, what
makes it so powerful?
00:13:44.29\00:13:45.67
A lot of people will say
that it's the engine of logic.
00:13:45.68\00:13:49.37
Logic is what make science
function the way it does.
00:13:49.38\00:13:52.36
Because if we didn't have logic,
00:13:52.37\00:13:53.61
then we couldn't use
science the way we do.
00:13:53.62\00:13:55.69
But then you ask the
question well, what about logic?
00:13:55.70\00:14:02.69
Can you experience
logic with your five senses?
00:14:02.70\00:14:05.80
I mean think about this.
00:14:05.81\00:14:06.95
Can you put logic
in a Bunsen burner
00:14:06.96\00:14:09.27
and watch its color change?
00:14:09.28\00:14:11.16
Can you observe it in a
telescope or microscope,
00:14:11.17\00:14:14.06
can you observe
it scientifically?
00:14:14.07\00:14:15.57
Logic cannot be
observed scientifically
00:14:15.58\00:14:17.75
because it's an
abstract concept.
00:14:17.76\00:14:20.32
So in order for them to negate
the existence of God based
00:14:20.33\00:14:23.89
on the fact that they can't see,
00:14:23.90\00:14:25.10
they have to get rid of
the law more like logic.
00:14:25.11\00:14:28.12
Right, for example.
00:14:28.13\00:14:29.17
I had an experience
when I was in college there,
00:14:29.18\00:14:32.24
somebody you know,
would challenge me on a basis
00:14:32.25\00:14:35.31
that they can't see
God, you can't you know,
00:14:35.32\00:14:37.36
really interact with him,
00:14:37.37\00:14:38.85
so because you cant see him.
00:14:38.86\00:14:41.11
You know, He doesn't exists
00:14:41.12\00:14:42.40
and atheists send a
challenge Christians
00:14:42.41\00:14:44.69
on the basis of
information and if you could,
00:14:44.70\00:14:47.49
you know, show me
God then I would believe
00:14:47.50\00:14:49.29
what I think good thing for
us to realize is that you know,
00:14:49.30\00:14:52.90
a lot of people know information
00:14:52.91\00:14:54.47
like we know smoking is wrong,
00:14:54.48\00:14:55.79
its gonna cause
cancer but we still smoke.
00:14:55.80\00:14:58.12
And so that
already kind of tells us
00:14:58.13\00:14:59.49
that even if they
could know, you know,
00:14:59.50\00:15:01.85
they would still
choose not to believe
00:15:01.86\00:15:03.39
because they know
smoking will cause cancer
00:15:03.40\00:15:04.97
yet they start smoke
00:15:04.98\00:15:06.44
and so they challenge us
on the basis of information
00:15:06.45\00:15:09.00
but we can also challenge them
on the basis of application.
00:15:09.01\00:15:11.78
I think it is interesting too
00:15:11.79\00:15:12.78
because there is a lot of things
00:15:12.79\00:15:14.31
that you cannot see
it with a naked eye.
00:15:14.32\00:15:16.80
There is you know,
molecular structures,
00:15:16.81\00:15:19.26
the atomic levels and
a bunch of other stuff
00:15:19.27\00:15:21.28
that are forgotten
science class etc.,
00:15:21.29\00:15:23.04
but there is a lot of things
00:15:23.05\00:15:24.04
that you cannot see
you need instruments.
00:15:24.05\00:15:25.98
You need microscopes, you need
all these fancy little gadgets
00:15:25.99\00:15:28.66
but people say,
well, you can't see God.
00:15:28.67\00:15:32.12
I think it's similar
in the spiritual life,
00:15:32.13\00:15:34.60
you need instruments to see God
00:15:34.61\00:15:36.43
and I think one
of those instruments
00:15:36.44\00:15:37.62
is the word of God.
00:15:37.63\00:15:39.02
It's the Bible which
gives you kind of somehow,
00:15:39.03\00:15:41.83
it gives you the
capacity to see beyond
00:15:41.84\00:15:44.50
where your naked eye cannot see.
00:15:44.51\00:15:46.08
And ultimately the
issue is even science,
00:15:46.09\00:15:49.54
it inputs things
that they cannot see
00:15:49.55\00:15:51.74
in order for
science to make sense.
00:15:51.75\00:15:52.99
For example, for years,
00:15:53.00\00:15:55.18
they uses the
thing called Ethrane,
00:15:55.19\00:15:56.74
but obviously
it's been proven false,
00:15:56.75\00:15:58.04
now but they use it
to understand science,
00:15:58.05\00:15:59.65
but now they use the
things called neutrinos.
00:15:59.66\00:16:02.54
What is neutrinos
for those who don't know.
00:16:02.55\00:16:04.14
Neutrinos is one of the
smallest objects in an atom.
00:16:04.15\00:16:08.42
You know, they input
it that in order for them
00:16:08.43\00:16:11.26
to understand science
and certain ConPhysics.
00:16:11.27\00:16:13.76
Faster than the speed of light.
00:16:13.77\00:16:14.92
Yeah, but they
couldn't see these things
00:16:14.93\00:16:17.31
they inputted them because
it made science make sense.
00:16:17.32\00:16:19.67
Now I believe when you
input God into your world view,
00:16:19.68\00:16:22.96
it just makes the
world makes sense in general.
00:16:22.97\00:16:25.36
It's almost like
what G.K. Chesterton said.
00:16:25.37\00:16:27.41
He said God is like the sun.
00:16:27.42\00:16:29.50
You know, you can't
look directly at it,
00:16:29.51\00:16:31.85
but without it you
can't see anything else.
00:16:31.86\00:16:34.07
Ooh I like that. That's nice.
00:16:34.08\00:16:36.80
Now Ezequiel, what about
we are talking about science,
00:16:36.81\00:16:38.90
we are talking about
you know, universe etc.,
00:16:38.91\00:16:40.78
the atomic level, what is this,
00:16:40.79\00:16:43.51
I hope I say right, I
have to say slow, cosmological.
00:16:43.52\00:16:47.59
Its one of the difficulties
00:16:47.60\00:16:48.63
when we are
talking about atheism
00:16:48.64\00:16:49.63
we get into
philosophical subjects
00:16:49.64\00:16:51.21
and words are just way too
long for the average person.
00:16:51.22\00:16:53.89
What in the world is
the cosmological argument
00:16:53.90\00:16:55.65
and how does
this argument help us
00:16:55.66\00:16:57.77
do better defend
the existence of God.
00:16:57.78\00:17:00.00
That's a really good question.
00:17:00.01\00:17:01.02
You know, actually
Oxford got to atheism
00:17:01.03\00:17:05.00
mentions that
cosmological argument
00:17:05.01\00:17:06.70
is something that atheists
cannot stay away from now
00:17:06.71\00:17:09.66
because there is
an apologist out there
00:17:09.67\00:17:11.33
name William Lane Craig
that is pushing it forward.
00:17:11.34\00:17:13.76
His specific
cosmological argument
00:17:13.77\00:17:15.23
is known as Kalam
Cosmological Argument now,
00:17:15.24\00:17:17.59
what is a cosmological argument,
00:17:17.60\00:17:18.87
why atheists are
so fascinated by it?
00:17:18.88\00:17:20.72
And why they wrestling with it?
00:17:20.73\00:17:22.29
Well, cosmological argument
00:17:22.30\00:17:23.87
is essentially an argument
based on existence itself.
00:17:23.88\00:17:27.96
I mean it goes back
all the way to Aristotle,
00:17:27.97\00:17:31.04
the first original
cosmological arguments.
00:17:31.05\00:17:33.74
But essentially why is there
something rather than nothing,
00:17:33.75\00:17:36.55
that's the way a Gottfried
Wilhelm Leibniz putted,
00:17:36.56\00:17:39.20
a German
philosopher mathematician.
00:17:39.21\00:17:41.39
So why is there things existence
00:17:41.40\00:17:43.23
instead of non existing.
00:17:43.24\00:17:44.89
And the way that
William Lane Craig
00:17:44.90\00:17:46.86
phrases aces his arguments,
that's very simple he says,
00:17:46.87\00:17:50.16
"Everything that has a
beginning has a cause,"
00:17:50.17\00:17:53.84
then he goes on to say,
00:17:53.85\00:17:55.33
"science has proven that
universe has a beginning."
00:17:55.34\00:17:58.56
Therefore the
universe must have a cause.
00:17:58.57\00:18:01.21
So the universe consists
of matter, time, energy,
00:18:01.22\00:18:06.00
and space and
something outside of time,
00:18:06.01\00:18:09.10
matter, energy and space
had to create the universe.
00:18:09.11\00:18:14.14
It's very interesting.
00:18:14.15\00:18:15.14
So what valid
candidates are there
00:18:15.15\00:18:16.56
where there is either
abstract objects like numbers,
00:18:16.57\00:18:19.07
sets and
theories or there is God
00:18:19.08\00:18:23.42
who is not bound by
matter, space, time and energy.
00:18:23.43\00:18:27.11
Now numbers, sets and theories
00:18:27.12\00:18:28.49
don't have any
cosmos powers like just
00:18:28.50\00:18:30.23
because you have a mathematical
equation on a piece of paper.
00:18:30.24\00:18:32.14
It doesn't make
a car work. Right.
00:18:32.15\00:18:33.98
You have to have
the causal identity.
00:18:33.99\00:18:35.68
God is the only causal
identity that isn't bound
00:18:35.69\00:18:38.27
by space, time
matter and energy.
00:18:38.28\00:18:41.13
And this is kind of
like just the cosmological.
00:18:41.14\00:18:43.04
Yeah it's a just of that,
00:18:43.05\00:18:44.06
I mean it tends to
sound sophisticated
00:18:44.07\00:18:46.02
but if you really, really
focus on and think about it,
00:18:46.03\00:18:48.17
it's not as
complicated as it really sounds.
00:18:48.18\00:18:50.07
You have to just focus
on it for a little bit.
00:18:50.08\00:18:53.30
Well, since we are
talking about philosophy
00:18:53.31\00:18:55.59
one of the things that
modern philosophers like to say,
00:18:55.60\00:18:59.91
postmodern
philosophers like to say
00:18:59.92\00:19:01.25
is that truth is relative,
there is no absolute truth.
00:19:01.26\00:19:04.00
So God could exist in your world
00:19:04.01\00:19:05.99
but He doesn't exist in my world
00:19:06.00\00:19:07.56
and there is no such
things absolute truth.
00:19:07.57\00:19:09.51
Now, I know you know,
00:19:09.52\00:19:10.55
philosophers are moving
beyond to post postmodern
00:19:10.56\00:19:12.69
but you know, for the
sake of I'm talking about this.
00:19:12.70\00:19:16.84
What do you have to
say about absolute truth?
00:19:16.85\00:19:18.61
Relativism. You know,
00:19:18.62\00:19:20.18
it's funny because the
post modern world view,
00:19:20.19\00:19:24.01
you first have to define
00:19:24.02\00:19:25.01
what the modern
world view is, right.
00:19:25.02\00:19:27.12
The modern world view really
00:19:27.13\00:19:28.39
was given birth
by Rene Descartes,
00:19:28.40\00:19:30.58
he is a French philosopher,
00:19:30.59\00:19:32.36
he was actually a
Christian for that matter.
00:19:32.37\00:19:35.29
He is the one that said "I think
00:19:35.30\00:19:36.50
therefore I am." Right.
00:19:36.51\00:19:38.98
He believed in rational thought.
00:19:38.99\00:19:41.35
He was known as the
father of Rationalism.
00:19:41.36\00:19:43.85
Where he thought
that you could prove
00:19:43.86\00:19:45.83
things in absolute certainty.
00:19:45.84\00:19:48.56
Well,
postmodernism is a response
00:19:48.57\00:19:50.59
to that where they don't believe
00:19:50.60\00:19:53.42
that you could look at
things with absolute certainty
00:19:53.43\00:19:55.23
because everyone has biases,
everyone has perspectives,
00:19:55.24\00:19:57.73
everyone has experiences
00:19:57.74\00:20:00.85
that change their
view of the world.
00:20:00.86\00:20:03.60
So they take it
to another extreme
00:20:03.61\00:20:05.78
saying based on our
biases, we can experience truth.
00:20:05.79\00:20:08.96
The only issue
with postmodernism
00:20:08.97\00:20:10.56
when they say you know,
00:20:10.57\00:20:12.43
we don't know what
truth is, truth is relative.
00:20:12.44\00:20:15.79
And they completely
ignore the objective is the fact
00:20:15.80\00:20:19.29
that they are
using an objective truth
00:20:19.30\00:20:22.40
to get rid of
an objective truth.
00:20:22.41\00:20:23.75
Its self refuting,
it's like trying to pull
00:20:23.76\00:20:26.87
yourself up by
your own bootstraps.
00:20:26.88\00:20:28.29
That's impossible,
because if you are saying,
00:20:28.30\00:20:30.34
there is no such thing as truth,
00:20:30.35\00:20:32.12
you could ask
him the questions so.
00:20:32.13\00:20:33.27
It's an absolute
statement. Yeah, is that true?
00:20:33.28\00:20:35.36
So you are saying is that true?
00:20:35.37\00:20:36.51
But you just said, there
is no such thing as true,
00:20:36.52\00:20:37.92
but you just
said, if that's not true
00:20:37.93\00:20:39.71
then I shouldn't even listen
to it, so its self refuting.
00:20:39.72\00:20:42.57
So it constantly
that the stronger you try
00:20:42.58\00:20:44.79
to destroy the
idea of absolute truth,
00:20:44.80\00:20:48.48
every time you hit at it,
00:20:48.49\00:20:49.48
it hits right back at you. Yeah.
00:20:49.49\00:20:50.96
And its kind of like
the whole causal truth,
00:20:50.97\00:20:52.74
all truth is relative.
00:20:52.75\00:20:54.49
If all truth is relative,
that means that the truth,
00:20:54.50\00:20:58.19
that all truth is all
relative is also relative.
00:20:58.20\00:21:01.20
So its non-consequential,
it doesn't matter.
00:21:01.21\00:21:03.14
Yeah, it doesn't
matter. So in other words,
00:21:03.15\00:21:04.77
its just literally going
circles, it will never arrive.
00:21:04.78\00:21:07.94
What' amazing about
that is that it allows
00:21:07.95\00:21:10.47
for an alternative
philosophical position
00:21:10.48\00:21:12.83
because if truth is relative
00:21:12.84\00:21:14.42
you know, you can believe that,
00:21:14.43\00:21:15.42
but then there also
can be the opposite.
00:21:15.43\00:21:17.88
Right. Yeah.
00:21:17.89\00:21:18.86
And so I mean
that's a good ledge
00:21:18.87\00:21:19.93
for Adventist to get in.
00:21:19.94\00:21:21.23
Now let's get practical.
00:21:21.24\00:21:22.64
As I think the
audience, some of our audience,
00:21:22.65\00:21:24.17
their heads might be
spinning with all these words,
00:21:24.18\00:21:26.16
all these concepts.
Let's get practical.
00:21:26.17\00:21:27.88
Ezequiel, what about the
average person's hit list?
00:21:27.89\00:21:30.85
It doesn't really matter.
00:21:30.86\00:21:32.13
I mean you believe in God,
00:21:32.14\00:21:33.65
may be I don't believe in God.
00:21:33.66\00:21:35.20
The most important things
are we're nice to each other
00:21:35.21\00:21:37.33
and that we respect each other.
00:21:37.34\00:21:38.63
And that does have
some very common argument.
00:21:38.64\00:21:41.18
Where do we even begin
to answer this question?
00:21:41.19\00:21:43.38
Well, I think
that's true, you know,
00:21:43.39\00:21:44.63
we do need to be
nice to each other,
00:21:44.64\00:21:45.82
and respect each other.
00:21:45.83\00:21:46.82
I think the only
thing with that argument
00:21:46.83\00:21:49.05
is that when
people ultimately make it,
00:21:49.06\00:21:51.31
they are screaming as tolerance
00:21:51.32\00:21:54.20
being the ultimate virtue.
00:21:54.21\00:21:56.12
The issue is we don't believe
00:21:56.13\00:21:58.21
that tolerance is
the ultimate virtue.
00:21:58.22\00:22:00.10
For example, the
widow burning in India,
00:22:00.11\00:22:03.11
Christians stopped that because
00:22:03.12\00:22:04.19
they thought it was evil.
00:22:04.20\00:22:05.19
Now the whole
world looked at them
00:22:05.20\00:22:06.30
and say yeah that's wrong.
00:22:06.31\00:22:07.72
To burn a widow
because of that, right.
00:22:07.73\00:22:11.19
So ultimately the question
00:22:11.20\00:22:12.64
I would ask in this situation
is based on the evidence,
00:22:12.65\00:22:17.90
lets say I mean, we
both tried to be fair
00:22:17.91\00:22:21.11
both atheists and Christians,
00:22:21.12\00:22:22.11
I say there is a 50%
chance of being Christian,
00:22:22.12\00:22:24.20
there is a 50% of
Christianity is not sure.
00:22:24.21\00:22:26.56
Let's try to be fair, right.
00:22:26.57\00:22:27.98
So let's say what we really
gain and lose if we are wrong.
00:22:27.99\00:22:31.71
As Christians, I believe
00:22:31.72\00:22:33.01
that I have a
happy fulfilled life.
00:22:33.02\00:22:34.94
So if I die and
God does not exist,
00:22:34.95\00:22:36.59
I will never know.
00:22:36.60\00:22:37.59
So ultimately I
don't really lose anything.
00:22:37.60\00:22:39.87
But think about this
from an atheist perspective.
00:22:39.88\00:22:42.14
Let's say if
the atheist is wrong
00:22:42.15\00:22:44.04
and Christianity
is true and they die,
00:22:44.05\00:22:47.55
and they ultimately find out
00:22:47.56\00:22:48.71
that the Christianity was true.
00:22:48.72\00:22:50.30
The Christian gains everything
00:22:50.31\00:22:53.36
and the atheist
loses everything.
00:22:53.37\00:22:55.45
This is known as Pascal's Wager.
00:22:55.46\00:22:57.75
Pascal was a brilliant French
philosopher, Blaise Pascal.
00:22:57.76\00:23:01.72
He is actually known as
the father of the barometer.
00:23:01.73\00:23:04.68
Pascal's triangle,
mathematical concept
00:23:04.69\00:23:07.07
and also even a primitive
00:23:07.08\00:23:10.03
computer back in
the 16th century,
00:23:10.04\00:23:12.23
well not the 16th
century past that.
00:23:12.24\00:23:14.37
But it's pretty amazing
what he could do at that point.
00:23:14.38\00:23:16.84
So the concept
that as a Christian,
00:23:16.85\00:23:18.70
if you believe in God, you
have nothing to lose. Yeah.
00:23:18.71\00:23:20.94
But if you don't believe in God
00:23:20.95\00:23:22.10
and He is there and
He eventually exist,
00:23:22.11\00:23:26.22
then you can
lose it lot. Exactly.
00:23:26.23\00:23:27.98
That's an interesting concept.
00:23:27.99\00:23:29.35
So what are the
non-- the arguments
00:23:29.36\00:23:33.79
towards the nonexistence of God.
00:23:33.80\00:23:36.20
Ultimately I mean we
talked about one of them
00:23:36.21\00:23:38.36
is about the lack of evidence
00:23:38.37\00:23:40.51
which I don't think
that's the case at all
00:23:40.52\00:23:42.37
especially I mean one
of the strongest argument
00:23:42.38\00:23:44.61
is the theological argument.
00:23:44.62\00:23:47.51
Say it again.
Theological argument.
00:23:47.52\00:23:49.21
Theological
argument, what does that mean?
00:23:49.22\00:23:51.50
All that means is the
argument based on order, right.
00:23:51.51\00:23:54.60
So the fact that we
have an orderly universe,
00:23:54.61\00:23:56.67
therefore we
should have something
00:23:56.68\00:23:58.82
that is set in order.
00:23:58.83\00:24:00.08
Let me use an
illustration to make this point.
00:24:00.09\00:24:01.99
Imagine that we were at my room
00:24:02.00\00:24:03.26
and I had a book
shelves all over the room.
00:24:03.27\00:24:06.43
But there is no books, all the
books are in the living room.
00:24:06.44\00:24:08.70
And we thought to
ourselves, you know what,
00:24:08.71\00:24:09.87
we need to put all
these in alphabetical order,
00:24:09.88\00:24:11.80
but let's go grab some lunch
00:24:11.81\00:24:13.10
and we'll come back and laugh,
00:24:13.11\00:24:14.97
we will hit this
with a full stomach
00:24:14.98\00:24:17.80
because you know, I
am hungrier right now.
00:24:17.81\00:24:18.98
So we decide and we go along,
00:24:18.99\00:24:20.17
we come back and
also we look at the books
00:24:20.18\00:24:22.23
and they're in
alphabetical order.
00:24:22.24\00:24:24.06
And we think to
ourselves, oh wow man,
00:24:24.07\00:24:26.64
that must have been some
tornado or some earthquake.
00:24:26.65\00:24:29.48
No that's not
what we think, right.
00:24:29.49\00:24:30.90
We normally assume, oh man,
00:24:30.91\00:24:32.07
someone must have come in here
00:24:32.08\00:24:33.07
and set them in
alphabetical order,
00:24:33.08\00:24:34.72
because that
doesn't happen at a chaos
00:24:34.73\00:24:36.33
something set in order.
00:24:36.34\00:24:37.39
Somebody with the compacity
00:24:37.40\00:24:38.47
to reason to look at the letter,
00:24:38.48\00:24:40.99
the details and
be able to maneuver.
00:24:41.00\00:24:43.35
And the theological argument
falls in different levels.
00:24:43.36\00:24:45.62
At the level of the universe
00:24:45.63\00:24:47.54
where there are these
laws that are so finely tuned.
00:24:47.55\00:24:50.28
That's basically,
mathematicians called it
00:24:50.29\00:24:52.62
astronomical
absurdity to believe
00:24:52.63\00:24:54.55
that it could have
just happened by chance
00:24:54.56\00:24:56.76
and even at the DNA
level, the DNA level,
00:24:56.77\00:24:59.98
its complicated grammar
and its actually language,
00:24:59.99\00:25:03.87
its almost like
computer science.
00:25:03.88\00:25:06.03
Okay, how do you
have from the very top
00:25:06.04\00:25:08.95
to the bottom shelf order
00:25:08.96\00:25:10.49
and believe that it
came out of disorder.
00:25:10.50\00:25:12.78
When both of it is
super ultra complicated,
00:25:12.79\00:25:15.87
especially when you
layered it in top of each other
00:25:15.88\00:25:17.75
and you think
about the possibilities
00:25:17.76\00:25:19.37
of both being put together.
00:25:19.38\00:25:21.42
It's absurd. Right.
00:25:21.67\00:25:23.20
Now Ezequiel, what
about the young person
00:25:23.21\00:25:25.96
looking at this program
who has heard our discussion,
00:25:25.97\00:25:28.89
compelling,
interesting may be new ideas.
00:25:28.90\00:25:31.93
What message would
you give in 30 seconds?
00:25:31.94\00:25:35.40
What message would
you give to a young person
00:25:35.41\00:25:37.02
who is watching this program,
00:25:37.03\00:25:38.56
who wants a stronger assurance
in their belief in God?
00:25:38.57\00:25:43.71
I would say, you know,
00:25:43.72\00:25:45.66
think hard and look even harder.
00:25:45.67\00:25:48.63
I think ultimately the problem
00:25:48.64\00:25:49.85
is that we're
usually like Pontius Pilate,
00:25:49.86\00:25:52.20
you know, where
we ask the question
00:25:52.21\00:25:53.26
what is truth and we walk away
00:25:53.27\00:25:54.95
before Jesus
even gives an answer.
00:25:54.96\00:25:57.02
I think ultimately
people are more willing
00:25:57.03\00:25:58.89
to ask questions
than to look for truth,
00:25:58.90\00:26:00.79
because looking for
truth actually takes effort.
00:26:00.80\00:26:03.92
And I think that
if anyone is young
00:26:03.93\00:26:05.29
and they are actually trying
to figure out these answers,
00:26:05.30\00:26:07.75
it's important to look
and look really hard you know,
00:26:07.76\00:26:11.38
to give it all you got. Awesome.
00:26:11.39\00:26:13.40
Well, I feel smarter
just after all this discussion
00:26:13.41\00:26:16.93
and Ezequiel I
didn't know you had
00:26:16.94\00:26:18.04
that much depth of knowledge
00:26:18.05\00:26:19.67
if you like I have to respect
you now a little bit more
00:26:19.68\00:26:21.22
but I do thank you
for coming on our show
00:26:21.23\00:26:23.85
and blessing us with
these ideas and concepts.
00:26:23.86\00:26:25.55
Thanks for coming.
Thanks for honoring me.
00:26:25.56\00:26:28.54
Maybe today you are a
person watching this program
00:26:28.55\00:26:31.18
and you wondered wow,
00:26:31.19\00:26:32.59
I never thought of
these concepts before,
00:26:32.60\00:26:34.12
these are new ideas.
00:26:34.13\00:26:35.37
I remember knocking
on doors in Vancouver,
00:26:35.38\00:26:36.85
British Columbia and speaking
to a lady and I asked her.
00:26:36.86\00:26:41.15
Aren't you interested,
00:26:41.16\00:26:42.18
aren't you curious
to know what truth is?
00:26:42.19\00:26:45.34
And she looks at
me and she says no.
00:26:45.35\00:26:47.70
And I say is why
aren't you interested
00:26:47.71\00:26:50.40
in finding discovering truth.
00:26:50.41\00:26:52.73
And she says because I am afraid
00:26:52.74\00:26:55.06
of what the answers might be.
00:26:55.07\00:26:57.11
And may be today
you are young person
00:26:57.12\00:26:58.97
who as Ezequiel mentioned
00:26:58.98\00:27:01.23
going through the
Pontius Pilate experience,
00:27:01.24\00:27:04.10
we get asking hard questions.
00:27:04.11\00:27:06.01
But you are not willing
to receive those answers.
00:27:06.02\00:27:08.49
We want to encourage
you to take a deeper look
00:27:08.50\00:27:10.91
into the word of God
to ask the hard questions,
00:27:10.92\00:27:13.38
but also be willing to receive
those very compelling answers.
00:27:13.39\00:27:18.25
We want to
encourage you to recognize
00:27:18.26\00:27:19.81
that Christianity doesn't
00:27:19.82\00:27:20.98
have to be an
emotional rush merely
00:27:20.99\00:27:24.24
but you as a young adult
can have intelligent reasons
00:27:24.25\00:27:27.24
why you believe in God
00:27:27.25\00:27:28.79
and you can
through your personal life
00:27:28.80\00:27:31.18
and also through your
conversation with other show
00:27:31.19\00:27:33.90
that you do have a reason
00:27:33.91\00:27:36.03
to believe in
the existence of God.
00:27:36.04\00:27:38.82
And I think that
God is gonna bless you
00:27:38.83\00:27:40.35
as you continue
to explore truth,
00:27:40.36\00:27:42.72
so continue in your journey.
00:27:42.73\00:27:45.36
Don't give up, ask
the hard questions,
00:27:45.37\00:27:48.20
continue investigating,
00:27:48.21\00:27:49.33
continue asking
the hard questions.
00:27:49.34\00:27:51.49
And I guarantee
that when you come
00:27:51.50\00:27:53.65
to your discovery of truth
you would not be disappointed.
00:27:53.66\00:27:57.71
God bless you, thanks for
joining us till next time.
00:27:57.72\00:28:00.11