Hello again my
name is Jay Rosario
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and welcome to "Engage."
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In this show we're
gonna attempt to address
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some of the most relevant
issues facing young people
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who are striving to have
a successful Christian life.
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And today we have
an exciting discussion
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and I want you to
introduce those that are here.
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We have Ezekiel
and my good friend Dan.
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Hey, Jay--Dan, tell us a
little bit about yourself?
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Well, my name is Daniel McGrath,
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I am living in the
Upper Peninsula now
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and pasturing churches there
and that it's good to be here.
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We also have a friend
Ezequiel who's joining us today.
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And Ezequiel just maybe tell
us little bit about yourself?
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Well, I was raised in California
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and I'm associate
pastor in Birmingham right now.
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So that's from where I'm at.
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All right well, reason
why Ezequiel is here today
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is because we're we attempting
to address one of the issue
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that young people
face which is Atheism.
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This is something that
many people find a challenge
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in their life
either dealing with atheist
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or having questions themselves
about the existence of God.
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And so we are glad
that you're here today,
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we're glad that you
know, you have an experience,
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you have the testimony
that you can share with us
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some of the other
young viewers watching today.
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Now, Ezequiel, you know, when we
think of the subject of Atheism,
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why is it that we as Christians
maybe I'm speaking of myself.
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Why is that we tend to be
so intimidated by Atheism,
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the subject or even atheist?
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Literally when we as Christians
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we find person who is an
atheist we feel intimated.
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Why in your experience,
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why do you
suppose this is a case?
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Well, it's a world view,
this is totally different
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from something
that we're used to.
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I think a lot of the
time intimidation comes from
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not being familiar
with the situation.
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I think a lot of times we
also don't listen to atheists
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and we think that
we need to tell them
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what they need to believe.
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And I mean a lot of what
Jesus did was listen to people.
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You know, talk to
people and listen to people
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and understand what
they're coming from.
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And when you listen
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you use a same
letters that spelt silent.
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So it's important to be
quite just to listen to him.
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So in other words
part of the main reason
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what you're suggesting
that Atheism is so intimidating
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is just because we're
so unfamiliar with it--
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And the reason why we
aren't familiar with this,
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just because we don't listen
to what they're proposing.
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Now, Ezequiel, tell us a
little bit about yourself,
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how did, how did you
kind of get into Atheism.
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Where you raised
in a Christian home?
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Tell us about your childhood?
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Well, you know, I'm Mexican,
so if you know anything about
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the Mexican cultures that you're
normally not raised atheist.
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I mean, most of
Mexico is Catholic.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So I was raised
in a Catholic home,
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but ironically enough my
dad was not really a Catholic.
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Growing up he would always say,
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"Yeah, you should
believe the Bible,
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but you should only
believe about 10 % of it.
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So you know, it was
an interesting dynamic.
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My Mom was more devote Catholic,
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but things start to
change in a little bit
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whenever they separated.
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They separated
when I was really young.
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My mom didn't go
to churches often,
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at least not
from what I remember.
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But so religion wasn't
a huge part of my life,
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it was just something that
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was kind of like a visage
of culture that I was raised.
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So did it bring any, did
it bring confusion to you
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being that your
father was not very devotes
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and your mother was?
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Did you kind of-how
do you relate to that?
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Yes and no.
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Yes, because I
heard all the questions
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that my dad would ask in.
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You know because he
left when I was so young
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but yeah, those questions
really resonated with me.
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You know, he asked
really good questions
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and they were
meaningful questions.
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But I didn't really
get answers from him.
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So when did you fully identified
yourself as an atheist
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and how old where you and
what led up to that experience?
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Well, I think the
transition happened first
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with my nonreligious
background persuade,
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because we didn't
go to church too often.
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But then at the
age of like 12 or 13
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my mom started
getting really into a church.
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It was a strange
little church down the street,
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Seventh-day Adventist, you know.
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And they would have
these interesting potlucks with
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the different
types of food and--
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How old are you
around this time?
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You know, I think
she started attending
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when I was about 10 or so when--
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But she really got into when
I was about 12, 12 years old.
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And reason I thought it was
interesting was just because
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there was--I mean a
little bit of the social group.
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So when I went to church
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I went for all the
wrong reasons, you know.
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I went because
they played games.
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They took us out to like
theme parks and stuff like that.
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But it wasn't
necessarily something that I was
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necessarily committed to,
because I mean at the age of 12
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I was already doing things like
partying and stuff like that,
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so it was definitely
interesting situation.
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So then you just
kind of attended church
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to accompany your mother--
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obviously at a young
age, you didn't really know
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what was it about?
You were just going
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for social reasons etcetera.
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And when did you
decide, yeah this thing,
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this Christianity
thing is not really for me?
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I identify myself a
little bit better with Atheism.
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Yeah, what actually
happened as I was telling you
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the journey of when I started
getting introduced to Adventism
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was amongst this
group, it was a youth group?
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And I remember sitting down
and everyone behaved as long as
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the teacher was in the room,
but as soon as he walked out
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they talked about
all the worldly stuff
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that I talked
about with my friends.
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So it, it really confused me.
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I thought to myself if
they've been in this so long
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then maybe they know something
about this that I don't know.
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So I thought to myself,
am I missing something here.
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But then I backed off and
I kind of become resentful,
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you know. I thought of myself
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is this all there is to it,
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just a bunch of hypocrisy.
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But, you know,
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it made me think
about this passage
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in the Bible in Mathew 6.
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Jesus had a deal
with hypocrisy also.
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He had to talk about the
hypocrisy of the Pharisees
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and there's three
specific instances in Mathew 6,
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Mathew 6:2 is the
first verse I'm gonna read,
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its says this, "Therefore
when you do a charitable deed
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do not sound the trumpet
before as a hypocrites do
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in the synagogues
and in the streets,
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that they may
have glory of men."
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Now it's
interesting because Jesus says,
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okay this is what
the hypocrites do,
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but don't do this.
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And then verse five
He goes on and says this,
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"And when you pray, you should
not be like the hypocrites,
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for they love to pray
standing in the synagogues
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on the corners of the street
that they may be seen by men.
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Assuredly, I say to
you, they have their reward."
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Again He say, listen
don't try to be overly religious
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just for the sake of
other people seeing you,
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this is a hypocritical.
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And then He goes on
again to same verse 16
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that the hypocrites do
this, they say, they're fast
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and they try to make
themselves seem religious.
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Now it's interesting
because Jesus is saying
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hypocrisy is not a
reason not to be religious.
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You know, there is a famous
French historian that said
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hypocrisy is the
tribute vice pays to virtue.
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So when we see hypocrisy
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suddenly we used to
walk away from the religion.
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We're actually acknowledging
that there is something good
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in it that should be lived out.
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We should be the example
and may be living it out.
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I think that's a challenge
from Jesus in these messages
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specifically these three verses
when He talks about hypocrites.
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Well, when you say the hypocrisy
in your class, in your school,
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what did that do to you?
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Well, you know,
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I definitely wasn't one
that took the high road.
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I decided to just back out
and just not be a part of that.
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As a matter of fact, by
the time I got into high school
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I declared myself
a full blown atheist.
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A lot of my friends
were still Christians,
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and they always
kind of joke around,
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you know, oh yeah,
Ezequiel the atheist,
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and they would
always bust jokes on that.
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But I was the only
atheist amongst my group,
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but I thought I was
completely convinced that God
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did not exist, at
least at that time.
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So then, when you
had this kind of epiphany
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when you saw the
hypocrisy in the church,
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it kind of turned
you out, you're like ah,
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this is not really something
genuine, something authentic.
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How, how did your mother
relate to that situation?
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That was tough.
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My mom would argue with me
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'cause she would try to
drag me to go to church.
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This was more so
towards the mid-teens,
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later teens years in my life.
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She would try to pull
me, read Bible verses to me
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and I would ask her,
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mom I'll go to church
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if you could prove
to me that God exists.
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And I mean, I feel ashamed
that some of the situations
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we'd get into 'cause
we'd argue back and forth
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and my mom, you know,
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would just cry and say you
know, I'm praying for you son,
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I hope that you come
around, I hope you come around.
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And she will quote
Bible verses to me and,
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you know, at that time
they didn't do anything to me
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but I will say that
the prayers of my mom
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throughout those
substantial years
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really made a
difference in the end.
00:08:22.74\00:08:25.04
So it doesn't
matter what situation
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us young people
can find ourselves in,
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whether its
intellectual complexities
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or whether it's addictions,
the prayers of the mother,
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the prayers of the
parent or grandmother
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goes a long way through.
Oh, yeah it's totally important.
00:08:37.73\00:08:40.23
I think it's essential, in
order for anything to happen,
00:08:40.24\00:08:42.62
specially the
battles of spiritual battle.
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You can't fight it
just through ideas.
00:08:44.54\00:08:46.63
So, so, Ezequiel, what were
those principles in Atheism that
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that were probably the
most convincing for you?
00:08:50.92\00:08:53.46
Atheism, obviously is
a very complex worldview.
00:08:53.47\00:08:56.01
There's a lot of
thing that it proposes but
00:08:56.02\00:08:57.97
what were maybe
one, or two, or three
00:08:57.98\00:08:59.63
of the big
reasons why you said no,
00:08:59.64\00:09:03.52
this is what make sense.
00:09:03.53\00:09:04.63
Life makes a lot more sense,
this principle over this idea.
00:09:04.64\00:09:08.34
What were one or
two or three of those?
00:09:08.35\00:09:10.53
Well, I think if I
really, really think about it,
00:09:10.54\00:09:12.40
I could definitely
pullout three hurdles
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that I dealt
within in my own Atheism.
00:09:13.97\00:09:16.19
The first was a problem
with evil and suffering.
00:09:16.20\00:09:19.11
I mean that's a
problem for even Christians.
00:09:19.12\00:09:21.77
But I remember, you know,
just reading the book of Job
00:09:21.78\00:09:24.13
and I was just
unsettled in my own heart.
00:09:24.14\00:09:27.46
There is actually
three specific experiences
00:09:27.47\00:09:30.39
after I had read Job,
00:09:30.40\00:09:31.81
I remember back and often think,
00:09:31.82\00:09:33.33
you know, I don't want
anything do with religion.
00:09:33.34\00:09:35.40
But these three
experiences that I had really
00:09:35.41\00:09:37.38
challenged my
experience with religion.
00:09:37.39\00:09:40.27
I thought that in
order for me to be a man
00:09:40.28\00:09:42.21
I need to move out
when I was 17 years old.
00:09:42.22\00:09:44.68
So I moved into an apartment
00:09:44.69\00:09:45.78
in it have been
in Ceres, California.
00:09:45.79\00:09:47.64
All by yourself?
Well, I had a roommate,
00:09:47.65\00:09:50.47
but you know he
was 18 and I was 17.
00:09:50.48\00:09:52.95
But we lived by the beach,
00:09:52.96\00:09:54.14
so life was good-at
least we thought so.
00:09:54.15\00:09:56.93
And there was a guy
upstairs they had turrets
00:09:56.94\00:09:59.32
and you guys know
what turrets is, right?
00:09:59.33\00:10:00.94
He--I remember
when I would walk by him
00:10:00.95\00:10:02.84
and like on the sidewalk
00:10:02.85\00:10:05.00
he would cuss me
out and but you know,
00:10:05.01\00:10:06.81
obviously you
can't take offences
00:10:06.82\00:10:08.00
someone has a disease like this.
00:10:08.01\00:10:10.88
What ended happening is
before I was gonna go to bed
00:10:10.89\00:10:13.11
I had the room
right underneath his.
00:10:13.12\00:10:16.29
And he said something
that send chills down my spine.
00:10:16.30\00:10:19.38
At night right
before I was gonna go to bed
00:10:19.39\00:10:21.17
can you imagine going
to sleep to these thoughts.
00:10:21.18\00:10:22.99
I hate my life, I hate my life
00:10:23.00\00:10:24.39
it stinks I am lonely, I am sad.
00:10:24.40\00:10:26.20
Their's no one that loves
me, he would just screamed
00:10:26.21\00:10:28.17
that all over and
over and over again.
00:10:28.18\00:10:29.83
And I try to ignore
and I thought of myself
00:10:29.84\00:10:31.59
maybe if I go talk to him
00:10:31.60\00:10:33.73
and I thought of so to myself
00:10:33.74\00:10:35.01
what am I gonna
can say to this guy.
00:10:35.02\00:10:37.73
To be honest I don't
even really wanna talk to him.
00:10:37.74\00:10:39.46
I don't wanna feel
miserable like he does.
00:10:39.47\00:10:41.33
And to be honest I don't
even really care of helping him.
00:10:41.34\00:10:43.66
But I started asking
myself the questions.
00:10:43.67\00:10:46.05
So how am I kind a make sure
that I don't end up like him.
00:10:46.06\00:10:49.94
You know, how am I
not gonna end up lonely
00:10:49.95\00:10:51.94
and sad and just miserable.
00:10:51.95\00:10:54.34
That hassle really
got me questioning.
00:10:54.35\00:10:56.45
And at the same time
there's a homeless guy
00:10:56.46\00:10:58.29
down the same road whenever I,
00:10:58.30\00:10:59.54
I worked at the
Halloween shop down there.
00:10:59.55\00:11:01.36
And I walked down main street.
00:11:01.37\00:11:03.10
And the cops were really,
really harsh on homeless people.
00:11:03.11\00:11:07.70
And one time there's a
homeless guy I was walking by
00:11:07.71\00:11:09.52
and he, you know,
his face is all worn out
00:11:09.53\00:11:11.65
and he looked at me and said
00:11:11.66\00:11:12.65
every time I walk through
here the cops kick me out.
00:11:12.66\00:11:15.76
And he says
they don't understand
00:11:15.77\00:11:16.87
that I am a person too.
00:11:16.88\00:11:18.31
And he looked at me
00:11:18.32\00:11:19.81
and I remember seeing
so much pain in his eyes
00:11:19.82\00:11:22.44
and I thought to myself--
00:11:22.45\00:11:23.92
man like stinks
what can I do to help him
00:11:23.93\00:11:26.57
and again I saw suffering
and I could not explain it.
00:11:26.58\00:11:29.06
You know, I could
push away the book of Job
00:11:29.07\00:11:30.71
and I could push away the
concept of God and suffering,
00:11:30.72\00:11:33.38
but ultimately
suffering was a very real thing
00:11:33.39\00:11:35.39
and it was in my face.
00:11:35.40\00:11:37.01
So that's very interesting
because you're saying that
00:11:37.02\00:11:39.45
it wasn't something
external that made you.
00:11:39.46\00:11:42.07
You know, question
it was the introspection
00:11:42.08\00:11:43.72
that you did inside
after you saw these things
00:11:43.73\00:11:46.78
that really started
getting you to think about God.
00:11:46.79\00:11:48.93
Yeah, I think that's a,
that's a good way to put in
00:11:48.94\00:11:50.93
introspection
really got me to reflect
00:11:50.94\00:11:53.45
on why I didn't
believe of what I believed and,
00:11:53.46\00:11:55.96
and what were some
of the hurdles that
00:11:55.97\00:11:57.95
were definitely
keeping me from believing.
00:11:57.96\00:11:59.99
Now this is, this is good
because I think a lot of times
00:12:00.00\00:12:03.00
Adventist especially
misunderstand atheist or atheism
00:12:03.01\00:12:07.54
because we tend to stay
in our own little bubbles
00:12:07.55\00:12:10.39
and we don't
really know many atheists.
00:12:10.40\00:12:12.48
Yeah, I went to
a public university
00:12:12.49\00:12:13.87
so I've been
confronted with this.
00:12:13.88\00:12:15.77
But how is it that an atheist
comes to understand the Bible
00:12:15.78\00:12:21.07
and into a
relationship with Jesus.
00:12:21.08\00:12:22.99
And I think you, you
know, you say that introspection
00:12:23.00\00:12:25.27
and personal
thought is a big thing
00:12:25.28\00:12:28.41
and so I appreciate
you bringing that out.
00:12:28.42\00:12:30.62
Yeah. So,
Ezequiel, what happen next?
00:12:30.63\00:12:32.96
So you have this introspection.
00:12:32.97\00:12:34.44
You had this kind
of hunting voices.
00:12:34.45\00:12:36.20
We want to say like that, that
were kind of tormenting you.
00:12:36.21\00:12:38.76
Definitely haunting what
what's, what was the next stage
00:12:38.77\00:12:41.96
How did that introspection
become a kind of reconsideration
00:12:41.97\00:12:46.86
of maybe the existence of God?
00:12:46.87\00:12:48.65
What I mean more open
minded that was an immediate
00:12:48.66\00:12:51.06
conversion experience but
it did make me more open mind
00:12:51.07\00:12:53.47
into the potential of
God actually existing.
00:12:53.48\00:12:55.95
Because you know at this point
00:12:55.96\00:12:57.65
I wondered where I came from,
00:12:57.66\00:12:59.18
where I found meaning
and where I found hope.
00:12:59.19\00:13:01.82
So I was more open to God
00:13:01.83\00:13:03.28
not necessarily
specifically Christianity.
00:13:03.29\00:13:05.52
I just wanted to
be open to anything.
00:13:05.53\00:13:08.58
But at this point I
got to my second hurdle.
00:13:08.59\00:13:11.30
My second hurdle was a fact that
00:13:11.31\00:13:14.05
I had never experienced God.
00:13:14.06\00:13:15.85
I never had an
experiential--a experience
00:13:15.86\00:13:18.30
with the divine Creator and
00:13:18.31\00:13:21.26
what ended up happening is
00:13:21.27\00:13:23.02
actually it's a
really interesting story.
00:13:23.03\00:13:25.08
I always hesitate as to
how I should tell the story.
00:13:25.09\00:13:28.28
But my Mom wanted me to
go to a Christian school.
00:13:28.29\00:13:32.13
So I decided to signup
for one an Adventist school.
00:13:32.14\00:13:35.46
So I got a phone call
and someone asked me to go
00:13:35.47\00:13:38.79
coopering and I
thought myself wait,
00:13:38.80\00:13:40.19
they don't know
that I am an atheist.
00:13:40.20\00:13:41.41
Now what's
coopering for the viewers?
00:13:41.42\00:13:42.70
Becuase I have no idea
what you're talking about.
00:13:42.71\00:13:43.85
Well, coopering is where
you go around door to door
00:13:43.86\00:13:46.79
selling mega books, these yeah--
Okay, so literature evangelism--
00:13:46.80\00:13:50.09
Literature evangelism
exactly and they give you
00:13:50.10\00:13:51.98
scholarship they
match whatever you make
00:13:51.99\00:13:54.04
and it helps you
go to school, right.
00:13:54.05\00:13:55.47
So I thought to myself wow,
00:13:55.48\00:13:56.54
this sounds like
a great opportunity
00:13:56.55\00:13:57.87
even though I'm an
atheist I thought myself
00:13:57.88\00:13:59.16
maybe I'm a good salesman.
00:13:59.17\00:14:00.25
You know, hang
on, hang on a second,
00:14:00.26\00:14:01.25
so you are university
atheist young person. Yeah.
00:14:01.26\00:14:03.95
You are a full blown
atheist and you're considering
00:14:03.96\00:14:06.43
whether or not to get involved
in literature evangelism?
00:14:06.44\00:14:08.42
Yes, You know, I mean,
00:14:08.43\00:14:10.03
God works in
mysterious ways, right.
00:14:10.04\00:14:11.55
So what happen so
you signup and you go.
00:14:11.56\00:14:13.45
Yeah, so I signup and
its interesting because
00:14:13.46\00:14:16.34
I thought of
myself man this would be
00:14:16.35\00:14:18.41
quite an experience, you know,
00:14:18.42\00:14:19.41
talk about religion when I
don't ultimately believe in it.
00:14:19.42\00:14:22.36
Well, I mean, it was definitely
harder than I thought.
00:14:22.37\00:14:25.34
You know, you never
really fact as an atheist.
00:14:25.35\00:14:27.01
I never really fact
the spiritual aspect
00:14:27.02\00:14:28.93
of literature
evangelism I just thought it was
00:14:28.94\00:14:31.29
a business transaction
a sale that I can make
00:14:31.30\00:14:34.00
and it wasn't that easy.
00:14:34.01\00:14:35.70
I definitely gone to
some difficult situations.
00:14:35.71\00:14:37.81
But I think that there
was specific experiences
00:14:37.82\00:14:40.45
that really got
me to be open to God
00:14:40.46\00:14:43.20
and by the end of the summer
00:14:43.21\00:14:44.77
I was committed to Jesus,
00:14:44.78\00:14:46.00
because of what
I had experience.
00:14:46.01\00:14:47.98
I'll tell a little
bit about my experiences.
00:14:47.99\00:14:50.44
My first experience was
when I was talking to someone
00:14:50.45\00:14:53.47
and I said well,
00:14:53.48\00:14:54.47
I like to have an experience
while praying something happens.
00:14:54.48\00:14:57.91
So I prayed in a car
and as soon as I walked out
00:14:57.92\00:15:00.49
and knock on the door, this
lady opens the door and says
00:15:00.50\00:15:03.26
"Are you the
Seventh-day Adventist?"
00:15:03.27\00:15:04.45
And usually if you
ever been door to door,
00:15:04.46\00:15:06.59
that's not a good thing. Right.
00:15:06.60\00:15:08.29
If they ask you if you
are Seventh-day Adventist
00:15:08.30\00:15:09.97
that usually means
get out of my face,
00:15:09.98\00:15:11.72
get out of my porch right.
00:15:11.73\00:15:13.04
And I was
hesitant, I was like ah, ah,
00:15:13.05\00:15:15.05
and I was like what
were the big blue books.
00:15:15.06\00:15:17.14
You know, I showed them
the page and she was like
00:15:17.15\00:15:19.29
no, no, no are
you, do you attend
00:15:19.30\00:15:21.03
a Seventh-day Adventist
Church and I said yes ma'am.
00:15:21.04\00:15:23.17
Specifically I am a
Seventh-day Adventist
00:15:23.18\00:15:25.29
that's the church that I go to.
00:15:25.30\00:15:26.79
And she says
good I've been having
00:15:26.80\00:15:28.60
questions about the Sabbath
00:15:28.61\00:15:30.35
and we just started
having this interactions,
00:15:30.36\00:15:32.19
she says actually I
just read about the Sabbath
00:15:32.20\00:15:35.01
I've been talking to my pastor
00:15:35.02\00:15:36.46
and just as you
were knocking on my door
00:15:36.47\00:15:38.45
I was on my knees praying,
00:15:38.46\00:15:40.20
that God would help
me understand the Sabbath
00:15:40.21\00:15:41.98
in the better
way and here you are.
00:15:41.99\00:15:44.50
And it was amazing I
thought of myself wow,
00:15:44.51\00:15:46.12
this is kind of an
interesting experience.
00:15:46.13\00:15:48.81
So you're knocking on her door
00:15:48.82\00:15:51.05
still kind of
atheist in your mind.
00:15:51.06\00:15:53.01
Yeah, but I said a prayer.
00:15:53.02\00:15:54.12
Helping this woman to
understand the Sabbath.
00:15:54.13\00:15:55.71
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:55.72\00:15:56.71
And because your mother
was the Seventh-day Adventist
00:15:56.72\00:15:58.11
you kind of identify
yourself as an Adventist--
00:15:58.12\00:16:00.14
Well, I knew-- Kind
of identify yourself
00:16:00.15\00:16:01.50
as an atheist, kind of as well.
00:16:01.51\00:16:02.65
Yeah, I had a book that
talked about the Sabbath,
00:16:02.66\00:16:04.75
so I thought of myself I
mean that's a start, right.
00:16:04.76\00:16:06.54
So I pulled off the
book and I started going over
00:16:06.55\00:16:08.77
God's answers to your
questions, right and you know,
00:16:08.78\00:16:11.21
we looked at the
Sabbath part and I said
00:16:11.22\00:16:13.04
this would be a book
that will really interest her.
00:16:13.05\00:16:15.32
We actually signed
her up for Bible studies
00:16:15.33\00:16:17.01
and I mean from
that point I mean
00:16:17.02\00:16:20.39
time after, time after, time
I don't think a week went by
00:16:20.40\00:16:23.21
where I didn't have the
tupendous like experience
00:16:23.22\00:16:25.44
with someone like,
well, I knew God was leading.
00:16:25.45\00:16:28.59
There was another
experience with this guy was
00:16:28.60\00:16:30.90
he got so upset at me
when I was trying to canvas him
00:16:30.91\00:16:33.72
that he
literally was gonna fight.
00:16:33.73\00:16:35.08
Yeah, I remember
seen him clutch his fist
00:16:35.09\00:16:37.66
and saw walking towards me
00:16:37.67\00:16:39.70
and as he clutch his fist,
00:16:39.71\00:16:40.72
I remember saying in
my head God if you real,
00:16:40.73\00:16:43.42
its time to do something 'cause
I don't want to get into a fight
00:16:43.43\00:16:45.63
in the street, you know.
00:16:45.64\00:16:46.75
Well, he dropped his keys I
remember picking up the keys
00:16:46.76\00:16:48.83
and I was praying out I
felt impressed and God said
00:16:48.84\00:16:51.53
pickup his keys and just
give him back to his hand
00:16:51.54\00:16:53.52
and just walk away.
00:16:53.53\00:16:54.52
So I grabbed the
keys put back in his hand
00:16:54.53\00:16:56.15
and I'm walking away.
00:16:56.16\00:16:57.15
I feel the strong impression
00:16:57.16\00:16:58.16
at this point I don't
really know what it is.
00:16:58.17\00:17:00.26
As I'm walking away the guy says
00:17:00.27\00:17:03.84
I don't know what went over me.
00:17:03.85\00:17:05.08
I'm really sorry but
God is working through you,
00:17:05.09\00:17:07.01
God is working
through you and at this point
00:17:07.02\00:17:08.61
remember I'm an atheist.
00:17:08.62\00:17:10.32
I was like what God
is working through me
00:17:10.33\00:17:13.79
and I think my favorite
experience was when there was
00:17:13.80\00:17:17.47
a group of gangsters
there's about eight, or twelve
00:17:17.48\00:17:20.62
I don't remember
their exact number.
00:17:20.63\00:17:21.95
But they would sit on the corner
and when I walked up to them
00:17:21.96\00:17:24.82
at first I thought
they were gonna jump to me.
00:17:24.83\00:17:26.13
They had this, this
mean mug looking face
00:17:26.14\00:17:28.85
and it look like they wanted,
00:17:28.86\00:17:31.11
they don't want any books
they wanted something else.
00:17:31.12\00:17:33.03
You know- But
you're pretty tall guy--
00:17:33.04\00:17:34.59
I'm a pretty tall guy but--
00:17:34.60\00:17:35.74
I'm in trouble, then
I would be in trouble.
00:17:35.75\00:17:37.21
You're sitting down and
Jay is standing up very high.
00:17:37.22\00:17:39.22
If I, if I ever go--
Yeah, I know it's true.
00:17:39.23\00:17:41.03
If I ever go door to
door I wanna to be right
00:17:41.04\00:17:42.61
by your sides
like David and Goliath.
00:17:42.62\00:17:44.00
So what happened,
what happened to this?
00:17:44.01\00:17:45.45
But if there's eight guys
there's not much you could do,
00:17:45.46\00:17:47.21
you know, but what ended
up happening is I actually
00:17:47.22\00:17:49.24
started
interacting with these guys.
00:17:49.25\00:17:50.64
And at first they
started making fun of me
00:17:50.65\00:17:52.26
they said oh, look
at this guy you know,
00:17:52.27\00:17:53.68
he is trying to
speak all proper,
00:17:53.69\00:17:55.63
I remember them
mocking me about that.
00:17:55.64\00:17:57.41
And I started getting frustrated
00:17:57.42\00:17:59.54
but what ended up
happening at this point is that
00:17:59.55\00:18:01.95
I started
interacting with one of them
00:18:01.96\00:18:03.87
to the point where I
signed him up for Bible studies.
00:18:03.88\00:18:07.83
And he started crying hugging me
00:18:07.84\00:18:09.61
and the end of
that experience I got
00:18:09.62\00:18:11.74
all of them to
signup for Bible studies
00:18:11.75\00:18:13.17
they began knocking me and
at the end of that experience
00:18:13.18\00:18:17.38
they were all signed
up for Bible studies,
00:18:17.39\00:18:18.56
'cause at this point
I was so open to God,
00:18:18.57\00:18:20.40
I remember praying
00:18:20.41\00:18:21.50
and experiencing very real way.
00:18:21.51\00:18:23.26
Wow. Amen, that's
powerful. Praise God.
00:18:23.27\00:18:24.48
Well, so, so number one
you, you definitely had some,
00:18:24.49\00:18:28.35
some heavy
introspection going on,
00:18:28.36\00:18:30.49
number two you had no
00:18:30.50\00:18:31.82
real
experiential knowledge of God.
00:18:31.83\00:18:33.96
So through these experiences
what he was telling us
00:18:33.97\00:18:36.10
is that God kind of let
you know that He was there,
00:18:36.11\00:18:38.80
that He was
answering your prayers. Yeah.
00:18:38.81\00:18:40.34
But there is also,
00:18:40.35\00:18:41.83
there is also has to
be another component,
00:18:41.84\00:18:43.21
because from your
time at university,
00:18:43.22\00:18:45.72
you know, from 13
onward you had some real
00:18:45.73\00:18:48.98
solid intellectual arguments
00:18:48.99\00:18:51.15
that went right
against the existence of God.
00:18:51.16\00:18:53.56
So what kind of
intellectual hurdles
00:18:53.57\00:18:55.65
did you have to
overcome for that?
00:18:55.66\00:18:57.34
Well, the intellectual
hurdles were really,
00:18:57.35\00:19:00.04
is there any evidence for
the existence of God in general
00:19:00.05\00:19:02.99
you know, 'cause
although I had experience,
00:19:03.00\00:19:04.88
and although I had come
to terms with, with evil
00:19:04.89\00:19:07.28
and how evil was
real and how the way
00:19:07.29\00:19:09.66
that Bible portrayed evil
seems to be pretty accurate
00:19:09.67\00:19:12.20
to the way we
experience in the world.
00:19:12.21\00:19:14.99
I still needed intellectual,
the intellectual hurdle
00:19:15.00\00:19:19.60
'cause you know, that I, I
never heard a real good argument
00:19:19.61\00:19:22.83
at this point for
the existence of God.
00:19:22.84\00:19:24.13
You know, I had
read things in the Bible
00:19:24.14\00:19:25.71
that seem to be true and real.
00:19:25.72\00:19:27.09
And at this point
I was a Christian,
00:19:27.10\00:19:28.74
but I still had this
dark cloud dooming over me
00:19:28.75\00:19:31.23
where I kept asking myself,
00:19:31.24\00:19:33.31
but what about
the truth you know.
00:19:33.32\00:19:36.76
Well, I went to GYC back in 2004
00:19:36.77\00:19:40.08
when it was San
Jose, your hometown--
00:19:40.09\00:19:42.07
Now, what is GYC for
those who don't know what GYC?
00:19:42.08\00:19:43.79
GYC is a Generation
of Youth for Christ.
00:19:43.80\00:19:46.15
At this point I was-were
actually been converted so--
00:19:46.16\00:19:48.99
This is an event,
this is a program.
00:19:49.00\00:19:50.31
It's a Youth event yeah,
00:19:50.32\00:19:52.07
thousands of young
people get together
00:19:52.08\00:19:53.52
and well, this is where I
had my first real experience
00:19:53.53\00:19:57.22
with anything that
talked about Christianity
00:19:57.23\00:19:59.82
within an intellectuals fear.
00:19:59.83\00:20:01.50
Right 'cause
you--with some that you did
00:20:01.51\00:20:03.53
the literature evangelism
it was more an experiential--
00:20:03.54\00:20:06.51
Kind of a thing, but
you still had confusion
00:20:07.19\00:20:09.65
and complexities in your mind
00:20:09.66\00:20:10.82
so at GYC, what happened at GYC?
00:20:10.83\00:20:12.89
Well at GYC I looked at the
workshops that were going on
00:20:12.90\00:20:17.19
and I saw this one
particular workshop.
00:20:17.20\00:20:19.08
It looks like the apologetics.
00:20:19.09\00:20:21.07
And I thought it was
a yard of apologizing
00:20:21.08\00:20:23.32
and at this point, at this point
00:20:23.33\00:20:25.80
I was very, very young
in my Christian experience.
00:20:25.81\00:20:28.80
And I had wronged
the lot of people.
00:20:28.81\00:20:30.82
And I thought of myself
man I really need to apologize
00:20:30.83\00:20:32.66
to a lot of people I
need to go to the seminar
00:20:32.67\00:20:34.18
in order for me to learn--
00:20:34.19\00:20:36.01
So you went to the
apologetic seminar thinking
00:20:36.02\00:20:38.76
that it was a
seminar that taught you
00:20:38.77\00:20:40.34
how to apologize if you were.
00:20:40.35\00:20:42.33
That makes sense, I
mean we could all benefit
00:20:42.34\00:20:44.27
from seminar apologizing--
00:20:44.28\00:20:46.07
Yeah, apologizing especially
after I just got converted
00:20:46.08\00:20:48.06
because I had
wrong people like I said.
00:20:48.07\00:20:49.57
So then what is apologetic,
00:20:49.58\00:20:50.65
when you got there
what did you learn?
00:20:50.66\00:20:52.70
Well, apologetics is
actually a field in theology
00:20:52.71\00:20:56.01
and it stands for
apologia in the Greek
00:20:56.02\00:20:58.64
it means actual, 'defense.'
00:20:58.65\00:21:00.21
It's a defense of the
Gospel, defense of Christianity,
00:21:00.22\00:21:02.78
defense of God in general.
00:21:02.79\00:21:04.04
So it's defending the
faith against all the accusation
00:21:04.05\00:21:07.55
and the attacks and arguments
that are presented to it.
00:21:07.56\00:21:10.49
The way I had to define
before is how to communicate
00:21:10.50\00:21:15.10
accurately the faith
through a secular perspective.
00:21:15.11\00:21:18.43
So I mean, I mean, it
covers so many different realms,
00:21:18.44\00:21:21.09
but yeah, that's basically.
00:21:21.10\00:21:22.22
So I attended
one of those seminars
00:21:22.23\00:21:24.13
and I thought of
myself this is apologetics,
00:21:24.14\00:21:25.58
it feel great
I'm loving, you know.
00:21:25.59\00:21:27.08
For the first time I
had to heard arguments
00:21:27.09\00:21:28.96
for the existence of God.
00:21:28.97\00:21:30.41
And I started
looking for classes
00:21:30.42\00:21:32.55
and I realize that my particular
00:21:32.56\00:21:34.31
Adventist University didn't
teach any courses in apologetics
00:21:34.32\00:21:37.24
and I was kind of bummed out.
00:21:37.25\00:21:39.05
But I saw that there was
a school out in Michigan,
00:21:39.06\00:21:44.18
out almost in, in the
Detroit area at that point
00:21:44.19\00:21:48.86
call the ARISE I was bummed
out 'cause it wasn't credited.
00:21:48.87\00:21:51.84
Now what is the ARISE,
what was that, what is that?
00:21:51.85\00:21:53.69
ARISE is a Resource Institute
for Soul Winning Evangelism
00:21:53.70\00:21:56.34
is a four months crash
course on Christianity.
00:21:56.35\00:21:58.65
So its four month, its
not-- How to evangelize, yeah--
00:21:58.66\00:22:00.22
It's not a four year
thing, only four months.
00:22:00.23\00:22:02.21
Yeah, it was only four
months and to be I mean,
00:22:02.22\00:22:05.34
particularly honest I just went
00:22:05.35\00:22:07.12
because I wanted
the apologetic course.
00:22:07.13\00:22:09.57
So I started talking
to people on the phone
00:22:09.58\00:22:11.80
you know, I got
signed up for school
00:22:11.81\00:22:12.96
and I ended up
going to the school
00:22:12.97\00:22:14.63
just for the apologetic course.
00:22:14.64\00:22:16.37
But I mean, I got so much more,
00:22:16.38\00:22:17.58
but I couldn't
find any other courses
00:22:17.59\00:22:20.07
in any other
Adventist institution
00:22:20.08\00:22:21.54
that talked about apologetics
00:22:21.55\00:22:22.70
so that's what drew
me there specifically.
00:22:22.71\00:22:25.42
So from the, from
the apologetics course
00:22:25.43\00:22:28.18
you kind of
solidified in your own mind
00:22:28.19\00:22:29.87
that the arguments
are there that God exist.
00:22:29.88\00:22:32.99
So you had, you had
the experiential part down
00:22:33.00\00:22:35.88
and now you match that with
you know, the knowledge base.
00:22:35.89\00:22:39.53
What can you tell somebody
00:22:39.54\00:22:41.15
who's trying to
reach out to an atheist
00:22:41.16\00:22:43.68
and how do you reach
your atheist friends.
00:22:43.69\00:22:46.53
You know, like I
said in the very beginning
00:22:46.54\00:22:47.79
the best thing you
could do is listen to them,
00:22:47.80\00:22:50.11
because lot of times people are
atheist for different reasons.
00:22:50.12\00:22:53.19
You know, I know a
physiologist, Dr. Paul Vitz,
00:22:53.20\00:22:56.62
actually talks about the
lot of people are atheist,
00:22:56.63\00:22:58.27
because they had
influence of their fathers.
00:22:58.28\00:22:59.91
He actually has
strong documentation for this
00:22:59.92\00:23:01.83
in his book Faith
of the Fatherless.
00:23:01.84\00:23:04.22
But usually you
really have to listen to
00:23:04.23\00:23:06.49
what they struggling with
00:23:06.50\00:23:07.78
and then deal
with it at that point
00:23:07.79\00:23:09.12
because ultimately I think
what happens a lot of times
00:23:09.13\00:23:11.71
is that atheists and Christians
00:23:11.72\00:23:13.16
talk over each others heads
00:23:13.17\00:23:14.93
and don't necessarily even
sit down and try to listen--
00:23:14.94\00:23:16.83
Like they're speaking
two different languages.
00:23:16.84\00:23:18.32
Yeah, exactly. Right.
00:23:18.33\00:23:19.46
And they just kind spin the
wheels and they get nowhere.
00:23:19.47\00:23:21.90
So what about for maybe
not how to reach an atheist,
00:23:21.91\00:23:25.28
but what about a young adult
00:23:25.29\00:23:27.54
maybe raised in
a Christian church
00:23:27.55\00:23:29.91
who is tempted with
the idea of maybe going
00:23:29.92\00:23:33.87
towards the road of Atheism
doubting the existence of God.
00:23:33.88\00:23:36.74
What message would
you give to young person
00:23:36.75\00:23:39.45
watching this program has
entertaining those thoughts
00:23:39.46\00:23:41.79
in may be 30 seconds?
00:23:41.80\00:23:42.79
What would you
tell a young person?
00:23:42.80\00:23:44.69
Well, you know Mathew
22 verse 37 talks about
00:23:44.70\00:23:49.04
loving God with all your
heart, your mind, and your soul.
00:23:49.05\00:23:52.58
We usually include
our heart and our soul,
00:23:52.59\00:23:55.20
we usually exclude our mind.
00:23:55.21\00:23:57.86
For someone that's
struggling with that
00:23:57.87\00:24:00.00
you could read on the
issue, there's so much,
00:24:00.01\00:24:02.14
so much out there,
00:24:02.15\00:24:03.42
that could really help you and
benefit you in those situations.
00:24:03.43\00:24:06.49
I mean there's plenty
of books, I could recommend
00:24:06.50\00:24:08.25
the first one I recommend is
00:24:08.26\00:24:09.75
5 Minute
Apologist by Rick Cornish.
00:24:09.76\00:24:11.50
What's the title again?
Amazing, 5 Minute Apologist.
00:24:11.51\00:24:14.21
5 Minute
Apologist. By Rick Cornish
00:24:14.22\00:24:15.68
is a very simple
down to earth apologetic--
00:24:15.69\00:24:17.66
Sounds like it's
written for busy people too,
00:24:17.67\00:24:19.46
5 Minute Apologist. Yeah,
00:24:19.47\00:24:20.63
it's only like every
argument has one or two pages,
00:24:20.64\00:24:22.69
very simple to
understand and its amazing.
00:24:22.70\00:24:24.89
You know, I recommend
that book for starters
00:24:24.90\00:24:27.03
for those that
are questioning in.
00:24:27.04\00:24:28.53
for those You know, I
really looking for answers
00:24:28.54\00:24:30.44
special
intellectual answers. Awesome.
00:24:30.45\00:24:32.53
Well, I think in this program
we've definitely seen that
00:24:32.54\00:24:34.98
you know, when we
bumped into atheist,
00:24:34.99\00:24:37.42
it doesn't mean
that they're unreachable,
00:24:37.43\00:24:39.89
I think, Ezequiel, you
are prime example of the power
00:24:39.90\00:24:42.87
of the Gospel and that
sometimes it takes time--Yeah.
00:24:42.88\00:24:45.41
Obviously you had to go
through your three hurdles.
00:24:45.42\00:24:47.67
Sometimes as Christians,
we want, we want atheist
00:24:47.68\00:24:50.48
to maybe we
convert him right now,
00:24:50.49\00:24:52.60
maybe in a weeks
time but sometimes
00:24:52.61\00:24:54.26
people have to go through
experience such as you did.
00:24:54.27\00:24:56.78
And I think its critical for us
to remember that as Christians.
00:24:56.79\00:24:59.21
But the journey is
very, very important.
00:24:59.22\00:25:00.89
Right, it involves the
mind, it involves the heart
00:25:00.90\00:25:03.30
and it involves many,
many different things.
00:25:03.31\00:25:05.70
What do you think,
00:25:05.71\00:25:07.65
what should we say if an Atheism
00:25:07.66\00:25:09.83
challenges us as Adventist,
00:25:09.84\00:25:11.62
or an atheist
challenges us as Adventist?
00:25:11.63\00:25:13.95
You know, does God really
exist prove to me that He exist,
00:25:13.96\00:25:16.54
what can we tell them?
00:25:16.55\00:25:17.66
I mean, one of
the geniuses think,
00:25:17.67\00:25:20.08
one of the things that,
00:25:20.09\00:25:21.20
that did that Jesus
did was absolutely genius
00:25:21.21\00:25:23.36
was the fact that
He asked questions
00:25:23.37\00:25:24.99
whenever He was
posed the question.
00:25:25.00\00:25:27.34
So I usually would shoot
right back out them and say
00:25:27.35\00:25:29.86
why don't you believe God exist.
00:25:29.87\00:25:32.79
And based on that
response you will actually know
00:25:32.80\00:25:35.17
how to respond to it.
00:25:35.18\00:25:36.35
'Cause I mean, they
could say there's no evidence
00:25:36.36\00:25:38.57
or it because of evil or
because my dad was Christian
00:25:38.58\00:25:41.93
and he beat me,
you know, I mean,
00:25:41.94\00:25:42.99
it all depends
on where they are at
00:25:43.00\00:25:45.12
and its hard to just say this
is the blanket silver bullet
00:25:45.13\00:25:48.37
answer from that all atheist.
00:25:48.38\00:25:49.81
Just like every other
person, everyone's had
00:25:49.82\00:25:52.22
different experiences you
have to really listen, so--
00:25:52.23\00:25:55.86
Yeah, so that make
sense-sometimes we want to fit
00:25:55.87\00:25:58.02
everybody into one size. Yeah.
00:25:58.03\00:25:59.77
But the reality is just
like there's different strands
00:25:59.78\00:26:02.05
of Christians, there's
different strands of atheists
00:26:02.06\00:26:04.50
from what it sounds like.
00:26:04.51\00:26:06.43
It sounds like some
atheist, are atheist
00:26:06.44\00:26:08.24
because of emotional reasons,
00:26:08.25\00:26:10.13
because of
experiential reasons in church
00:26:10.14\00:26:11.86
like you
mentioned in the beginning
00:26:11.87\00:26:13.29
were you were
exposed to hypocrisy.
00:26:13.30\00:26:15.30
Others maybe for
academic intellectual reasons,
00:26:15.31\00:26:18.15
maybe they have
questions inside their hearts
00:26:18.16\00:26:20.55
that they just haven't found
00:26:20.56\00:26:23.08
the right individual
who has probably led them
00:26:23.09\00:26:26.57
in the right
direction to find answers.
00:26:26.58\00:26:28.67
So I just, I'm really
excited of the fact that
00:26:28.68\00:26:31.71
a young person like you
went from Atheism to Adventism
00:26:31.72\00:26:36.13
to Christianity and
that just encourage me that
00:26:36.14\00:26:38.89
just because
somebody is an atheist,
00:26:38.90\00:26:40.07
it doesn't mean that there is,
there isn't any hope for him.
00:26:40.08\00:26:42.99
So, Ezequiel, we just
wanna thank you for coming
00:26:43.00\00:26:45.16
and sharing your experience
and I think this is a message
00:26:45.17\00:26:48.43
of kind of encouragement
to those maybe who are in
00:26:48.44\00:26:53.49
the doubting experience
and maybe those who are trying
00:26:53.50\00:26:56.68
to reach out to
the atheistic friends
00:26:56.69\00:26:58.64
and find it very frustrating.
00:26:58.65\00:26:59.90
So I just thank
you for just coming
00:26:59.91\00:27:01.30
and sharing your experience
00:27:01.31\00:27:02.69
with each and every one of us.
00:27:02.70\00:27:04.35
And hopefully those
that have been watching
00:27:04.36\00:27:05.80
have been
encouraged that just because
00:27:05.81\00:27:08.73
friend or maybe your coworker
00:27:08.74\00:27:10.21
and maybe even a
family member is,
00:27:10.22\00:27:12.06
has declared
themselves an atheist
00:27:12.07\00:27:14.30
it doesn't mean that
they're not possible to reach.
00:27:14.31\00:27:18.31
And I think most of the time
when we think about reaching
00:27:18.32\00:27:20.49
atheist, we always think
about having the right answer.
00:27:20.50\00:27:23.41
But sometimes its
more than just words
00:27:23.42\00:27:25.85
sometimes it has be
something in your life.
00:27:25.86\00:27:27.74
They have to see it
something different,
00:27:27.75\00:27:29.86
they have to be attracted
00:27:29.87\00:27:31.58
and see that you have
something that they do not have.
00:27:31.59\00:27:34.00
And also for that
young person that maybe
00:27:34.01\00:27:36.53
born and raise in a church
someone like kind of what,
00:27:36.54\00:27:39.13
like Ezequiel was who's
entertaining thoughts of Atheism
00:27:39.14\00:27:42.29
we want to encourage you
that Christianity has answers
00:27:42.30\00:27:45.09
that the Bible has
intellectual reasons
00:27:45.10\00:27:47.32
as to why you
can believe in God.
00:27:47.33\00:27:49.38
Believing in God doesn't
have to be just an emotional
00:27:49.39\00:27:51.98
exercise it could be an
intellectual discipline.
00:27:51.99\00:27:55.15
So thank you for tuning in.
00:27:55.16\00:27:56.59
God bless you, till next time.
00:27:56.60\00:27:58.70