Paul says in 2 Corinthians
3:18, "but we all with unveiled
00:00:20.70\00:00:25.47
"face beholding as in a
mirror the glory of the Lord are
00:00:25.50\00:00:29.80
"being transformed into the
same image from glory to glory
00:00:29.83\00:00:33.95
"just as by the
Spirit of the Lord."
00:00:33.98\00:00:36.38
My name is Shandra Ban
and today on Engage my co-host
00:00:36.41\00:00:39.33
David Asscherick and I are
talking to two sisters whose
00:00:39.36\00:00:42.37
testimony is exactly what
this verse is talking about,
00:00:42.40\00:00:45.70
being
transformed by God's glory.
00:00:45.73\00:00:47.79
David why don't you
introduce our guests for today?
00:00:47.82\00:00:50.30
Thank you so much Shandra
and it's great to be here.
00:00:50.33\00:00:53.27
Our guests today are
Virna and Lisa Santos, did I say
00:00:53.30\00:00:58.68
that right? - yes! -
Santos or Sontos? - which ever.
00:00:58.71\00:01:03.07
One said one and
one said the other.
00:01:03.10\00:01:04.89
So Virna and Lisa Santos
and we are thrilled that you are
00:01:04.92\00:01:08.57
with us, Shandra has read 2
Corinthians 3:18 and in many
00:01:08.60\00:01:12.84
ways your, well in all ways
really your story is a modern
00:01:12.87\00:01:17.35
embodiment of this passage.
00:01:17.38\00:01:19.70
And we are great to have
you back on another program
00:01:19.73\00:01:21.85
where we're going to
talk about your ministry,
00:01:21.88\00:01:23.33
which is really
built around the text.
00:01:23.36\00:01:25.49
But before we get to that
we want to talk about your
00:01:25.52\00:01:27.57
story, and it is an amazing one.
00:01:27.60\00:01:29.70
Now I got the three-hour
version last night, so let's go
00:01:29.73\00:01:34.65
for the slightly
shorter version today, but it is
00:01:34.68\00:01:36.88
something our
viewers need to hear.
00:01:36.91\00:01:38.98
It is one of the most
profound and inspiring
00:01:39.01\00:01:42.90
transformative stories
that I have ever heard in years.
00:01:42.93\00:01:45.27
So we are going to kind
of start from the beginning
00:01:45.30\00:01:47.67
if that is okay? - yeah.
00:01:47.70\00:01:48.93
Now Virna you are the
oldest one, still young but the
00:01:48.96\00:01:52.24
older one and so you
want to start with you.
00:01:52.27\00:01:55.42
Where are you from?
Where were you born?
00:01:55.45\00:01:57.44
Where did you grow up?
00:01:57.47\00:01:58.81
I was born in the
Philippines, we came here to the
00:01:58.84\00:02:01.81
United States when I was about
2 and 1/2 and basically grew
00:02:01.84\00:02:05.01
up in San Diego, California.
00:02:05.04\00:02:07.18
- So you are a
Southern California girl?
00:02:07.21\00:02:08.59
Yes I am. - okay so you
are born in the Philippines
00:02:08.62\00:02:11.13
and came here when
you are very young.
00:02:11.16\00:02:13.29
Lisa you are four
or five years younger?
00:02:13.32\00:02:16.19
Five. - 5 years younger so
you were born in the states?
00:02:16.22\00:02:19.53
Yes I was. - you're
just an American girl?
00:02:19.56\00:02:21.65
- I'm an American girl.
00:02:21.68\00:02:23.22
So it is a
little bit like my wife.
00:02:23.25\00:02:24.40
She is Romanian but
she came to the states when
00:02:24.43\00:02:27.41
she was so young I
call her a Ro-American.
00:02:27.44\00:02:29.70
She's Romanian by a
culture but she is an American.
00:02:29.73\00:02:33.45
Um - no offense. - no
offense when we were growing up
00:02:33.48\00:02:37.93
I speak Tagalog and Lisa
always thought it was Spanish.
00:02:37.96\00:02:41.71
I would tell my parents to
stop speaking Spanish to me.
00:02:41.74\00:02:46.22
And they're speaking Tagalog
they're speaking Tagalog yes.
00:02:46.25\00:02:49.34
Do you speak Tagalog
now? No I understand it.
00:02:49.37\00:02:51.76
You understand it but you
think it's Spanish. - yeah.
00:02:51.79\00:02:54.48
So you move to Southern
California, talk to me about
00:02:56.42\00:03:01.35
the religious
influence in your home.
00:03:01.38\00:03:03.44
Was there any sort of religion?
00:03:03.47\00:03:05.27
Well when we moved here
to the United States we went
00:03:05.30\00:03:09.66
to a Roman Catholic
Church and started going
00:03:09.69\00:03:11.43
there every Sunday,
00:03:11.46\00:03:13.28
my father is Uglypion in
the Philippines and that is
00:03:13.31\00:03:16.73
equivalent Episcopalian, we
didn't know that at the time.
00:03:16.76\00:03:19.93
So we just went to the Roman
Catholic Church and did the
00:03:19.96\00:03:23.40
CD thing, first Communion
thing, we did all that and
00:03:23.43\00:03:26.80
were actively
attending every Sunday.
00:03:26.83\00:03:29.64
So you are raised in a
Roman Catholic home basically.
00:03:29.67\00:03:32.56
- yes. Okay that is up
and to a certain point and
00:03:32.59\00:03:36.11
at some point you all end up
on your individual, everybody
00:03:36.14\00:03:40.01
in your family is on these
individual spiritual journeys?
00:03:40.04\00:03:42.57
Right, exactly, my mom
was doing her own searching,
00:03:42.60\00:03:46.97
healing from a lot of things.
00:03:47.00\00:03:49.66
My dad got caught up with
Nostradamus and Armstrong and
00:03:49.69\00:03:53.97
learned about the Sabbath
through that and wanted to
00:03:54.00\00:03:56.89
find a church
that kept the Sabbath.
00:03:56.92\00:03:58.93
At the same time my mom was
invited by her sister-in-law
00:03:58.96\00:04:02.52
to the Seventh-day
Adventist church in Chula Vista.
00:04:02.55\00:04:05.33
It's a little
suburb of San Diego.
00:04:05.36\00:04:07.14
So mom is doing her
thing, dad is looking into the
00:04:07.17\00:04:10.99
Nostradamus thing you said?
00:04:11.02\00:04:12.47
Yeah he was into the prophecy,
he got into the prophecy
00:04:12.50\00:04:15.21
stuff through Nostradamus.
00:04:15.24\00:04:17.21
Which led him to the Armstrong
Church of God which led
00:04:17.24\00:04:21.15
him to the Sabbath. - exactly!
00:04:21.18\00:04:23.66
So dad is sort of in the
Sabbath thing, mom has been
00:04:23.69\00:04:26.63
invited to a
Seventh-day Adventist church.
00:04:26.66\00:04:28.49
We all attend and it was a
strange thing because there
00:04:28.52\00:04:32.73
was no genuflecting, in no
kneeling down, no holy water,
00:04:32.76\00:04:36.00
no one made the sign
of the cross, no priest.
00:04:36.03\00:04:38.49
And everyone had their
Bibles - everyone had Bibles.
00:04:38.52\00:04:42.20
- Everyone was carrying these
books, what are these books?
00:04:42.23\00:04:44.30
Right, you got it exactly.
00:04:44.33\00:04:45.95
So you walk into a Seventh-day
Adventist church, it's
00:04:45.98\00:04:49.08
a change. - it's a
change and actually I look at it
00:04:49.11\00:04:52.04
as a breath of fresh air.
00:04:52.07\00:04:53.73
- hmmm, really. - yep
really that different experience
00:04:53.76\00:04:59.66
- it wasn't different,
different or different weird
00:04:59.69\00:05:02.36
it was different good.
- it was different good.
00:05:02.39\00:05:04.23
- Wow we praise the Lord.
00:05:04.26\00:05:06.32
So we are now at a Seventh-day
Adventist church, we're
00:05:06.35\00:05:11.58
now how old? I'm
about 17,18. - I'm 13.
00:05:11.61\00:05:16.62
Okay so you are all
in your middle teens.
00:05:16.65\00:05:18.64
Right and we all got
baptized December 14.
00:05:18.67\00:05:21.56
Everybody, the whole
family, the whole family.
00:05:21.59\00:05:23.03
Now I don't think we
have mentioned this yet, but
00:05:23.06\00:05:25.11
you have a brother that
is between the two of you?
00:05:25.14\00:05:26.65
yes. But is not
obviously here today,
00:05:26.68\00:05:28.68
there he is these invisible.
00:05:28.71\00:05:30.17
So you have a brother
that between the two of you,
00:05:30.20\00:05:32.28
and the whole family the
two sisters, brother, mom,
00:05:32.31\00:05:34.46
and dad baptized. Hallelujah!
00:05:34.49\00:05:37.82
It was the first for
that Pastor to baptize us, to
00:05:37.85\00:05:40.16
baptize a whole family
together, you know the date.
00:05:40.19\00:05:44.68
December 14, 1985. -
just like that? - yep.
00:05:44.71\00:05:47.98
Do you know all dates
just like that? Some mostly.
00:05:48.01\00:05:50.89
Yes I remember last
night when you were telling me
00:05:50.92\00:05:52.56
your testimony, you just
knew these dates it was amazing.
00:05:52.59\00:05:55.49
So December 14, 1985 your
whole family is baptized and
00:05:55.52\00:06:00.82
you are now Seventh-day
Adventist and of course
00:06:00.85\00:06:04.27
a Seventh-day Adventist
church that is actually involved
00:06:04.30\00:06:06.30
in education and Virna you
make your way to a Seventh-day
00:06:06.33\00:06:09.71
Adventist University.
- yes, at the time it was
00:06:09.74\00:06:12.15
Loma Linda University La
Sierra campus and I went there
00:06:12.18\00:06:15.73
for a year, and in the
year after that I signed up
00:06:15.76\00:06:19.19
to be a student
missionary in Hilo Hawaii.
00:06:19.22\00:06:22.05
A student missionary in
Hawaii? You know I have give
00:06:22.08\00:06:25.63
you a little bit of
a hard time about that.
00:06:25.66\00:06:27.31
I've got this friend named
Justin Denon and he will go to
00:06:27.34\00:06:31.65
Mexico, he'll go to Belize,
or he will go somewhere and
00:06:31.68\00:06:35.63
we used to joke with him
because he would come back and
00:06:35.66\00:06:36.97
say you know brothers somebody's
got to reach these people.
00:06:37.00\00:06:39.55
He would be a likely
combing, somebody's got to reach
00:06:39.58\00:06:42.24
these people
and I think it's me.
00:06:42.27\00:06:44.40
Here's just that kind of
a thing, I mean somebody has
00:06:44.43\00:06:46.48
to go to Hawaii.
00:06:46.51\00:06:47.50
- I've got to go do it.
- it may as well be you.
00:06:47.53\00:06:49.85
Yeah exactly. - so you
are student missionary in
00:06:49.88\00:06:51.58
Hawaii, now I'm not
complaining there's people in a
00:06:51.61\00:06:52.87
Hawaii that need the
Lord as well of course.
00:06:52.90\00:06:54.24
So you're off, you
did the year at La Sierra,
00:06:54.27\00:06:57.62
a positive
experience? - yes it was.
00:06:57.65\00:06:59.88
Okay now you're off to Hawaii
student missionary and that
00:06:59.91\00:07:03.03
would put you in high
school. - I'm in high school.
00:07:03.06\00:07:05.84
How is that transition,
your teenager and now you are
00:07:05.87\00:07:09.12
weird, you're an Adventist,
you go to church on Saturday.
00:07:09.15\00:07:13.35
I think it was more of a
challenge to have this new faith
00:07:13.38\00:07:18.78
and my friends knew that
I did convert and they had
00:07:18.81\00:07:24.36
questions about you can't do
things on Friday night how come?
00:07:24.39\00:07:28.57
That's weird, I was never
able to go to football games
00:07:28.60\00:07:33.17
or participate in some
normal activities on Friday
00:07:33.20\00:07:37.90
night.- so were you
resent- ful about this?
00:07:37.93\00:07:40.89
Or did you have a relationship
with Jesus and it was okay?
00:07:40.92\00:07:42.90
I had a real baby relationship
with Jesus and he was just
00:07:42.93\00:07:50.24
starting out and it was a
challenge, I did know how to
00:07:50.27\00:07:54.21
bring it to the Lord
to help me out with that.
00:07:54.24\00:07:57.97
But it was a struggle.
- it's all so fresh and
00:07:58.00\00:08:00.22
you are a teenager. -
being a teenager tough anyway.
00:08:00.25\00:08:04.89
You want to have fun
with your friends and do what
00:08:04.92\00:08:08.31
everyone else is
doing. - so I got it.
00:08:08.34\00:08:11.96
So now we are on the
verge of something big here.
00:08:11.99\00:08:14.75
Virna now when you are
away in Hawaii as a student
00:08:14.78\00:08:20.87
missionary, you are now
coming to grips with something
00:08:20.90\00:08:24.63
that you had experienced
when you were younger but now
00:08:24.66\00:08:28.70
what's really
coming to the forefront.
00:08:28.73\00:08:30.38
I'm going to have
Shandra walk us through this,
00:08:30.41\00:08:33.09
talk to us about
that, what was that?
00:08:33.12\00:08:35.73
Yeah I can actually say
that while even at La Sierra
00:08:35.76\00:08:40.77
being in a girls
dorm, it didn't help.
00:08:40.80\00:08:44.04
I felt like it was
bubbling up to the surface
00:08:44.07\00:08:48.79
more and more and was
getting harder and harder
00:08:48.82\00:08:51.28
to suppress and it was
an attraction to girls.
00:08:51.31\00:08:57.56
I remember feeling
that attraction ever since
00:08:57.59\00:09:00.37
I was really young. -
so is that one reason why
00:09:00.40\00:09:02.69
you left the university
to go as a missionary?
00:09:02.72\00:09:05.13
I felt it was something I
needed to do to keep myself
00:09:05.16\00:09:09.35
busy. To do
something that looks godly.
00:09:09.38\00:09:13.51
Hide behind being a Path Finder
leader, our Sabbath school
00:09:13.54\00:09:17.33
teacher, a teacher at
a Seventh-day Adventist
00:09:17.36\00:09:20.79
elementary school
for grades three to six.
00:09:20.82\00:09:23.51
You know I just kept myself
busy that way in trying to,
00:09:23.54\00:09:26.99
but all the while I was
staying in my fantasies.
00:09:27.02\00:09:30.22
I was feeling safe there.
00:09:30.25\00:09:32.47
So you're trying to
balance this Christian lifestyle
00:09:32.50\00:09:35.00
with these predominant
feelings that are coming up
00:09:35.03\00:09:37.72
and trying to rise?
00:09:37.75\00:09:38.99
Exactly, it
felt like war inside,
00:09:39.02\00:09:41.48
that's what it felt like.
00:09:41.51\00:09:42.79
Now did you share this
with anyone? - no, not even my
00:09:42.82\00:09:46.28
sister. - not even your
sister? - not even my sister.
00:09:46.31\00:09:49.27
So unbeknownst to you Lisa
how are you feeling at this
00:09:49.30\00:09:51.71
time? Basically the same way.
00:09:51.74\00:09:55.35
I was still going to church
and also at a very young age
00:09:55.38\00:10:00.23
I felt attracted to same-sex
and a church it was very
00:10:00.26\00:10:06.00
hard because I was hiding
who I was, who I thought I was.
00:10:06.03\00:10:10.24
I also lived in a fantasy
world and had crushes on my
00:10:10.27\00:10:16.46
sister in Christ and
felt so weird about that,
00:10:16.49\00:10:19.51
and didn't know how to
reach out for help or support.
00:10:19.54\00:10:26.09
I just didn't know how
to do that, just so fearful.
00:10:26.12\00:10:29.69
- you did know
where to turn? - right.
00:10:29.72\00:10:31.08
So Virna you finish up your
student missionary and where
00:10:31.11\00:10:36.46
you like to go after? I
couldn't go back to La Sierra
00:10:36.49\00:10:39.30
because the tuition had gone
up and my cal grants and funding
00:10:39.33\00:10:43.38
didn't change so I
went back home to San Diego
00:10:43.41\00:10:45.56
to a community College there
00:10:45.59\00:10:47.20
and took up surgical
nursing program there.
00:10:47.23\00:10:50.24
And you met someone there?
Yes I did and we engaged in
00:10:50.27\00:10:58.63
a very secretive
relationship. - and no one knew?
00:10:58.66\00:11:02.52
And no one knew, with
another woman that is. - right.
00:11:02.55\00:11:08.72
And you kept
this on for how long?
00:11:08.75\00:11:11.27
- for about two years.
From the time we started
00:11:11.30\00:11:16.06
school together, we work
together, we went to school
00:11:16.09\00:11:19.43
together and for two years.
00:11:19.46\00:11:22.74
So eventually you did end
up starting to tell people and
00:11:22.77\00:11:25.94
became more in the open
about it. How did that happen?
00:11:25.97\00:11:28.38
Well that
relationship didn't work.
00:11:28.41\00:11:31.16
She went on to get married
in the Philippines to a man
00:11:31.19\00:11:36.81
and I pursued the
lifestyle here in San Francisco.
00:11:36.84\00:11:41.48
Okay so you moved from San
Diego to San Francisco because,
00:11:41.51\00:11:44.37
because as we know San
Francisco has a large homosexual
00:11:44.40\00:11:48.98
community, so you thought
this is where I could go to be
00:11:49.01\00:11:51.62
in the open. - to be
out in free I wanted that.
00:11:51.65\00:11:54.86
So did you take your
family at this point? - no.
00:11:54.89\00:11:57.54
Lisa did you guys
suspect anything? - yeah we did.
00:11:57.57\00:12:02.99
I think we were actually
talking to my mom and my
00:12:03.02\00:12:07.05
brother if she ever
came out how would you feel?
00:12:07.08\00:12:10.28
I think at that point my
mom was having struggles about
00:12:10.31\00:12:13.33
that. - Mama is still in
the church? - Mama is still
00:12:13.36\00:12:16.93
in the church. - and at
this point your dad - is not.
00:12:16.96\00:12:20.45
So you're in San Francisco
year now and living out this
00:12:20.48\00:12:25.15
life and you meet someone else?
00:12:25.18\00:12:27.55
Yes I met someone we know
was living in San Francisco
00:12:27.58\00:12:31.56
and while I was out and proud
in the community I was very
00:12:31.59\00:12:34.66
active during that time, I
became a counselor for domestic
00:12:34.69\00:12:38.14
violence victims in the
gay community and I also worked
00:12:38.17\00:12:41.31
for a Filipino organization
in the AIDS and HIV sector.
00:12:41.34\00:12:46.68
Was violence a big problem
in the gay community then?
00:12:46.71\00:12:49.30
Yes it is, we are not immune
to that, no one is immune to
00:12:49.33\00:12:54.09
violence. - so you meet
this woman and you start
00:12:54.12\00:12:58.87
a relationship with her?
00:12:58.90\00:13:00.21
Yes we are together for
about eight years in the last
00:13:00.24\00:13:04.50
year of our relationship
we had a child together by
00:13:04.53\00:13:06.75
artificial insemination
and our daughter is now going
00:13:06.78\00:13:11.60
to be nine next month.
00:13:11.63\00:13:13.03
Our relationship deteriorated
when our daughter was
00:13:13.06\00:13:18.76
eight-month-old we separated.
00:13:18.79\00:13:22.47
I can't, it's just so
heavy and I'm sure there's
00:13:22.50\00:13:27.50
probably people who have
never met them how the one who
00:13:27.53\00:13:31.66
had a daughter with the
same sex relationship, wow.
00:13:31.69\00:13:35.77
Yeah it was a beautiful
experience because we had our
00:13:35.80\00:13:39.32
daughter at home and
she was the apple of my eye.
00:13:39.35\00:13:44.55
Even to this day, we
are co-parenting as best as
00:13:44.58\00:13:49.38
we can right now.
00:13:49.41\00:13:50.80
So I do want to stop this,
this is great but we need to
00:13:50.83\00:13:55.28
find out where Lisa is
because last time we left you,
00:13:55.31\00:13:57.34
you were still in high
school, so what is happening to
00:13:57.37\00:13:59.77
you while this is
going on with your Virna?
00:13:59.80\00:14:02.64
There was inward fears
just homophobia actually
00:14:02.67\00:14:07.72
being afraid of this and
not being able to know how
00:14:07.75\00:14:13.87
to deal with this.
00:14:13.90\00:14:15.06
It was very painful. - because
you are wondering why me?
00:14:15.09\00:14:19.16
Why do I feel this way? -
exactly and I think I really
00:14:19.19\00:14:23.52
tormented myself
from all the fear and
00:14:23.55\00:14:25.28
it just grew into depression.
00:14:25.31\00:14:27.48
To fast forward a little bit
I was with my parents and just
00:14:27.51\00:14:32.35
feeling so frustrated. -
so you started looking for an
00:14:32.38\00:14:36.80
outlet. - yes an outlet.
00:14:36.83\00:14:38.31
So I went online, as many
people do and that led me to
00:14:38.34\00:14:43.48
meet someone and that
relationship started to grow.
00:14:43.51\00:14:48.60
We started chatting and it
grew into phone calls every
00:14:48.63\00:14:52.64
night and I thought I was
falling in love with this woman.
00:14:52.67\00:14:59.02
I decided to
move for this woman.
00:14:59.05\00:15:03.83
Me and my sister just packed
up my car, my little Honda
00:15:03.86\00:15:09.02
Civic and got us a little
trailer and attached it and were
00:15:09.05\00:15:13.94
on the highway going to Florida.
00:15:13.97\00:15:16.01
At this point Virna you
knew now that Lisa was also gay?
00:15:16.04\00:15:21.38
Yes, I already
knew by that time.
00:15:21.41\00:15:23.82
Have you told your family
yet? No! My mom already knew
00:15:23.85\00:15:31.80
about me, but for Lisa not yet.
00:15:31.83\00:15:34.77
One of the concerns was when
she came out to me I was like
00:15:34.80\00:15:37.37
you didn't tell
Mama yet, did you?
00:15:37.40\00:15:39.57
I knew where she was
coming from for that.
00:15:39.60\00:15:42.99
I said no I didn't. You
didn't want your mom think you
00:15:43.02\00:15:47.94
were influencing your
sister. - exactly right.
00:15:47.97\00:15:50.44
You are already
getting flack from her.
00:15:50.47\00:15:52.10
Okay so you moved to Florida,
you move in with this woman
00:15:52.13\00:15:55.38
and how long do you live
with her? - for three years.
00:15:55.41\00:15:58.08
There was really some
tender moments, but for the most
00:15:58.11\00:16:04.52
part I knew in the back of
my mind this was not right.
00:16:04.55\00:16:08.44
The conviction was just
so heavy on me, and I knew my
00:16:08.47\00:16:13.81
life was not going right.
00:16:13.84\00:16:17.81
I didn't have enough
money to survive, I was always
00:16:17.84\00:16:20.73
calling home I need some
money can you send some money?
00:16:20.76\00:16:23.49
I was financially hard up
and the relationship wasn't
00:16:23.52\00:16:29.85
going as I wanted it to be.
00:16:29.88\00:16:31.72
I thought this ideal
relationship, this is what I
00:16:31.75\00:16:37.21
wanted and it just didn't turn
00:16:37.24\00:16:39.29
out to be that. So then you move
back home? - so I moved back
00:16:39.32\00:16:43.73
home and I get sick and it is
00:16:43.76\00:16:53.33
lupus. Okay so
you're diagnosed with lupus.
00:16:53.36\00:16:56.89
I've diagnosed with
lupus and going through such
00:16:56.92\00:17:00.28
a painful struggle with that.
00:17:00.31\00:17:01.68
Now you said some last
night when we were talking,
00:17:01.71\00:17:03.59
you said that your brother
said something to you about
00:17:03.62\00:17:06.98
being diagnosed with lupus?
00:17:07.01\00:17:08.62
Yes I was in the hospital
and my white blood cells was
00:17:08.65\00:17:11.05
like 1.1 and I'm basically
on the bed wondering if
00:17:11.08\00:17:17.07
I'm going to die? I
am laying there in tears.
00:17:17.10\00:17:20.96
Maybe not verbally praying
or formally praying as people
00:17:20.99\00:17:25.06
think what praying is, but
I'm talking to God and just
00:17:25.09\00:17:28.92
wondering what is going on?
Why is this happening to me?
00:17:28.95\00:17:33.16
Is it because the Florida?
00:17:33.19\00:17:34.43
The next day my brother
comes in and I am in isolation
00:17:34.46\00:17:38.18
because my immune system
is very vulnerable right now.
00:17:38.21\00:17:41.52
So he comes in and I know
that he is meaning well and
00:17:41.55\00:17:46.87
he cares in his own way.
00:17:46.90\00:17:48.94
He just asked me, you know
why this is happening don't
00:17:48.97\00:17:51.52
you? I'm like no
please tell me why?
00:17:51.55\00:17:55.76
I want some answers you know.
00:17:55.79\00:17:57.43
He goes well you haven't
told mom about you being gay.
00:17:57.46\00:18:03.01
It hit me, I think it hit
me and I got upset because
00:18:03.04\00:18:09.72
I wanted the
support from my family.
00:18:09.75\00:18:13.06
And out of his concern because
of this lie I was keeping
00:18:13.09\00:18:18.13
he was pleading with
me, you need to tell her.
00:18:18.16\00:18:23.46
So Virna, you have a baby
and your relationship falls
00:18:23.49\00:18:30.71
apart with your partner
and you start to feel some more
00:18:30.74\00:18:34.99
changes coming on in your life.
00:18:35.02\00:18:36.39
David why don't you
talk to them about that?
00:18:36.42\00:18:38.31
Yeah so what ended up
happening was I live on my own,
00:18:38.34\00:18:42.29
me and my ex-partner worked
things out in regards to our
00:18:42.32\00:18:46.19
daughter and I get my
own apartment and I engage in
00:18:46.22\00:18:50.45
another relationship
yet with another woman.
00:18:50.48\00:18:52.39
That was a really bad
relationship, it was abusive on
00:18:52.42\00:18:57.21
all levels,
emotionally and physically.
00:18:57.24\00:19:00.13
I ended up
becoming homeless in 2005.
00:19:00.16\00:19:03.29
I lost my job and was
homeless and sleeping in my car
00:19:03.32\00:19:07.68
in front of a 24
hour Starbuck coffeehouse.
00:19:07.71\00:19:10.95
Yeah and I recall one day
just, it was raining and it was
00:19:10.98\00:19:17.11
cold and I was in my car
and I was crying and I guess
00:19:17.14\00:19:21.19
I was praying like Lord help me.
00:19:21.22\00:19:23.66
Soon enough in around November
of 2005 I find a great job.
00:19:23.69\00:19:30.15
I get an apartment. I
stabilize the life for me and
00:19:30.18\00:19:34.08
my daughter and so
that went really well.
00:19:34.11\00:19:41.48
I stopped dating and
stopped engaging or looking for
00:19:41.51\00:19:46.75
a relationship, I just
focused on me and my daughter
00:19:46.78\00:19:49.17
and my friends and hanging
out and doing that scene.
00:19:49.20\00:19:53.34
You know I am just sitting
here, I don't think ever been
00:19:53.37\00:19:57.78
quiet for so long, I'm just
sitting here marveling at the
00:19:57.81\00:20:01.82
goodness of God, the grace
of God because I know where
00:20:01.85\00:20:05.16
this is going of course.
00:20:05.19\00:20:06.25
Our viewers can see
where it is going but
00:20:06.28\00:20:08.18
you were in this, I
mean both of you were so
00:20:08.21\00:20:12.09
you were in the bottom of this
thing, you were in the thick
00:20:12.12\00:20:15.48
of it is what I am saying.
00:20:15.51\00:20:16.86
I mean you have a daughter
with a same-sex partner, and
00:20:16.89\00:20:22.16
Lisa you have moved to
Florida from California that is
00:20:22.19\00:20:24.45
quite a
transition, you're moving in.
00:20:24.48\00:20:26.26
But now there is the rumblings,
something is about ready
00:20:26.29\00:20:30.89
to happen and this is not
something that has been going on
00:20:30.92\00:20:32.74
for two years, were 14th,
15, 16 years into this thing.
00:20:32.77\00:20:37.68
Yeah for me it was 20
years. - so 20 years in this
00:20:37.71\00:20:41.24
thing. - yeah. - and
now something is happening.
00:20:41.27\00:20:44.66
I found myself around
November of 2008, it was a very
00:20:44.69\00:20:49.38
political year, a very
heavy year and I was carrying
00:20:49.41\00:20:52.86
a lot of heavy stuff and
was in the bathroom cleaning,
00:20:52.89\00:20:56.55
just to clarify.
00:20:56.58\00:20:58.37
So this is where you are at
last night so we have to hear
00:20:58.40\00:21:01.71
this part, so you were
in the bathroom we have
00:21:01.74\00:21:03.54
to clarify
that, you're cleaning.
00:21:03.57\00:21:05.90
And all of a sudden it
was almost flash card style,
00:21:05.93\00:21:11.13
images of the sanctuary
comes to me. Remembering
00:21:11.16\00:21:16.24
- the sanctuary of
scripture? The Holy sanctuary.
00:21:16.27\00:21:18.82
specifically the
Day of atonement.
00:21:18.85\00:21:20.85
The activities that
would happen in the sanctuary.
00:21:20.88\00:21:22.96
The offerings and everything.
00:21:22.99\00:21:25.01
Now I have to stop
you there for a second.
00:21:25.04\00:21:26.61
Where is this coming from?
- I don't know I was scared.
00:21:26.64\00:21:34.18
- It wasn't like you
are going to church. - no.
00:21:34.21\00:21:35.99
In other words you would
say this is out of the blue?
00:21:36.02\00:21:39.29
Out of the blue come my
Bible was in the closet for 20
00:21:39.32\00:21:41.67
years, I wasn't reading it.
00:21:41.70\00:21:43.38
You're in the bathroom
cleaning and flash card pictures
00:21:43.41\00:21:47.65
of the sanctuary? What
was that last image of?
00:21:47.68\00:21:50.59
The last image was of Jesus
on the cross and it just zoomed
00:21:50.62\00:21:53.96
in on His face and it
was an awful picture to see.
00:21:54.00\00:21:57.71
But it took my breath
away and I was talking in there
00:21:57.74\00:22:01.78
and Lisa saw me
from the living room.
00:22:01.81\00:22:03.92
- I think I heard her
gasp and I was are you okay in
00:22:03.95\00:22:07.60
there? I was
worried for a little bit.
00:22:07.63\00:22:10.51
- because you are
like talking to yourself.
00:22:10.54\00:22:11.60
Yeah I basically was and
so all I remember after that
00:22:11.63\00:22:15.11
is that I started to have
this craving to go back to
00:22:15.14\00:22:17.72
church and wanted my
daughter to learn about Jesus,
00:22:17.75\00:22:20.08
so we start going to church.
00:22:20.11\00:22:21.78
So you see this
picture of Jesus, sanctuary,
00:22:21.81\00:22:25.01
Day of atonement,
this is all coming.
00:22:25.04\00:22:27.13
This is 20 years ago you
were a Sabbath School teacher
00:22:27.16\00:22:30.43
and now it is just coming
to you? - yeah. - this craving
00:22:30.46\00:22:34.87
of wanting to get
back to church. - right.
00:22:34.90\00:22:36.72
Right that time I felt
like it was okay to be gay,
00:22:36.75\00:22:41.06
it's was okay to be who I
am and I don't need to change.
00:22:41.09\00:22:44.02
It's okay to learn about
Jesus and to love Jesus and to
00:22:44.05\00:22:47.62
teach Julian about that. -
Julian being your daughter?
00:22:47.65\00:22:50.14
Julian being my daughter yes.
00:22:50.17\00:22:51.61
So you're not thinking
I'm not getting out of the gay
00:22:51.64\00:22:55.90
community, know this is
happening very incrementally.
00:22:55.93\00:22:58.85
Yes. - Jesus has got
a hold of your heart.
00:22:58.88\00:23:01.91
"I if I be lifted up from
the earth will draw all men
00:23:01.94\00:23:04.62
"unto myself." You are
having that experience of being
00:23:04.65\00:23:06.86
drawn. - Amen. It doesn't
just happen it's not all of
00:23:06.89\00:23:11.35
a sudden for any of us,
it's not like you just jumped in
00:23:11.38\00:23:13.90
and now you are a super saint,
it's incremental isn't it?
00:23:13.93\00:23:17.15
God meets us right where
we are, and He met you in the
00:23:17.18\00:23:19.54
bathroom cleaning. -
yes He did, basically.
00:23:19.57\00:23:22.82
He met me in a cold room in
Laramie Wyoming went out was
00:23:22.85\00:23:26.48
crying my eyes out, I
mean He meets us in different
00:23:26.52\00:23:28.73
places. And He met you in
a bathroom cleaning and you
00:23:28.76\00:23:30.93
say I have got to go to church.
00:23:30.97\00:23:32.78
I have to teach my
daughter about Jesus.
00:23:32.81\00:23:34.86
You are not thinking now,
I remember when I was getting
00:23:34.89\00:23:37.16
converted I was thinking I will
be just a Christian punk rocker.
00:23:37.19\00:23:39.45
And your thinking well I'll
just be a Christian gay person.
00:23:39.48\00:23:43.76
- right, exactly. - you
didn't know you would be
00:23:43.79\00:23:46.75
sitting here speaking to
thousands and tens of thousands
00:23:46.78\00:23:49.80
or more about it. So
now what is happening?
00:23:49.84\00:23:53.22
What's happening is we are
going to church and it is now
00:23:53.25\00:23:56.75
about January 2009
and I go to communion.
00:23:56.79\00:23:58.99
That's where I surrendered
to the Lord and said okay all
00:23:59.02\00:24:03.28
of this is on You.
00:24:03.32\00:24:04.82
I'll partake of the
Communion service. - because you
00:24:04.85\00:24:07.66
were feeling guilty, how
can it partake of this holy.
00:24:07.70\00:24:11.25
I felt it would be blasphemous
for me to participate
00:24:11.28\00:24:14.80
because of who I was, smoking.
00:24:14.83\00:24:17.65
- you were
smoking two packs a day.
00:24:17.68\00:24:19.86
Smoking two packs a day
for 20 years and I enjoyed it,
00:24:19.90\00:24:22.07
it wasn't like I was
addicted to it, it was something
00:24:22.10\00:24:24.24
I really enjoyed. -
you liked it? - yeah.
00:24:24.28\00:24:26.28
The Spirit of God in that
communion service said to you
00:24:26.31\00:24:29.37
something like take
the leap or something.
00:24:29.40\00:24:32.18
The Pastor suddenly
spoke and pointed his finger
00:24:32.21\00:24:34.37
and I felt it was pointed at me.
00:24:34.40\00:24:35.92
He said take a leap of faith
and watch what God will do.
00:24:35.95\00:24:40.35
Not you, God will do it.
- at this point you are even
00:24:40.38\00:24:44.48
going to church and
coming out and going in you have
00:24:44.52\00:24:48.55
not told the Pastor Hey I'm
gay, and this is my daughter.
00:24:48.58\00:24:51.91
You are just in
and out, in and out.
00:24:51.95\00:24:54.22
But this is a moment for
you, a pivotal moment for you.
00:24:54.26\00:24:57.60
Very, I partake in the Communion
and later on that evening
00:24:57.63\00:25:00.94
when I took my last
cigarette for the evening
00:25:00.97\00:25:05.96
I had a sudden sharp pain
in my throat and felt very
00:25:05.99\00:25:09.47
nauseous in my stomach.
00:25:09.51\00:25:11.16
The next morning I go to
7/11 to buy some more and
00:25:11.20\00:25:14.29
I found myself just
sitting there in the car and the
00:25:14.33\00:25:17.14
nauseous feelings
coming back and I said I don't
00:25:17.17\00:25:19.94
want to have
nothing to do with this.
00:25:19.98\00:25:21.29
I can't smoke anymore,
I don't want to do this.
00:25:21.33\00:25:23.39
You walked away from it? I
drove away and all remember
00:25:23.43\00:25:26.84
saying was Lord help me
and I have not smoked since.
00:25:26.88\00:25:30.22
No withdrawals, no headaches,
no nothing and I just praise
00:25:30.26\00:25:33.60
the Lord. I was there the
day that she called my mom
00:25:33.64\00:25:35.53
when she told my mom on the
phone and our mouths were just
00:25:35.56\00:25:42.11
like - she stopped smoking
and you can't believe it.
00:25:42.14\00:25:44.65
I was praising the Lord because
I really didn't like that
00:25:44.68\00:25:47.15
habit and I was like wow.
00:25:47.19\00:25:49.94
My mom was flabbergasted
and at that time she was asking
00:25:49.97\00:25:54.14
us questions about our
faith again and was like getting
00:25:54.18\00:25:58.31
me, she was interesting
to me. - well here we go,
00:25:58.35\00:26:01.55
here we go. I'm staying
with my dad were watching
00:26:01.59\00:26:05.17
something on 2012 and
I'm like you know what?
00:26:05.21\00:26:08.72
I think Great Controversy
has something to say about this.
00:26:08.76\00:26:11.95
The book 'The Great
Controversy' by Ellen White.
00:26:11.99\00:26:13.13
Yeah by Ellen White and
I'm going to go and read this.
00:26:13.17\00:26:17.24
So the first chapter I
read is kind of weird, it was
00:26:17.28\00:26:20.77
really random the state
of the dead and at this point
00:26:20.80\00:26:25.09
maybe a couple months before
this all happened, we were
00:26:25.13\00:26:29.25
watching a lot of shows
on supernatural phenomenon.
00:26:29.28\00:26:34.22
- you know it seemed
random, it was exactly what,
00:26:34.25\00:26:39.12
a scratch where you were
itching. - it was convicting.
00:26:39.15\00:26:42.38
It was very
convicting and very strong.
00:26:42.42\00:26:44.72
Now I've got to say this,
we're going to have you back
00:26:44.76\00:26:47.90
for second program obviously
it got to because there is
00:26:47.94\00:26:52.24
so much here, but for this
program, and for our viewers
00:26:52.28\00:26:56.55
you have turn your
lives over to Jesus. - yes.
00:26:56.58\00:27:00.28
But I have to tell you
something David, the Lord
00:27:00.31\00:27:03.34
really laid on my heart
the heaviest conviction that
00:27:03.37\00:27:09.07
really changed my life
and that was if Sunday is
00:27:09.11\00:27:14.73
a counterfeit to my Sabbath
what would be the counterfeit
00:27:14.77\00:27:18.71
to my creation? - now
you heard the Lord say this?
00:27:18.74\00:27:22.56
I heard Him say this to me.
00:27:22.59\00:27:24.40
If Sunday is a counterfeit
to my Sabbath then what would
00:27:24.44\00:27:27.21
be the
counterfeit to my creation?
00:27:27.24\00:27:28.71
In your heart of hearts you
knew exactly what that meant?
00:27:28.74\00:27:31.94
Exactly, I fell to my
knees immediately and repented.
00:27:31.98\00:27:35.87
We could say safely that
that is the change, that is the
00:27:35.91\00:27:39.80
pivotal moment where you
are leaving the old lifestyle
00:27:39.83\00:27:43.49
behind and you are a new
creature in Christ Jesus.
00:27:43.52\00:27:46.78
We are going to unpack
that statement, we are going to
00:27:46.81\00:27:49.77
come back to that and we
are so looking forward to having
00:27:49.80\00:27:52.73
you back for an ex-program.
00:27:52.76\00:27:54.02
Check us out at
Engage and 3ABN.org.
00:27:54.05\00:27:57.22
Send us an e-mail or
search for us on Face Book
00:27:57.25\00:27:59.68
thank you so much
for joining us today.
00:27:59.72\00:28:01.90