I'm John Carter in Moscow.
00:00:01.36\00:00:02.70
I'm now in Kiev,
the capital of Ukraine.
00:00:02.73\00:00:04.57
I'm John Carter in Petra...
00:00:04.60\00:00:06.47
Reporting from India...
00:00:06.50\00:00:08.40
In Columbia...
00:00:08.44\00:00:09.77
I'm John Carter.
00:00:09.80\00:00:11.14
Today, on The Carter
Report, we have the man
00:00:11.17\00:00:13.54
who is called the
Adventist maverick.
00:00:13.58\00:00:16.14
He's a historian, a philosopher,
00:00:16.18\00:00:18.48
a university
professor, and a theologian.
00:00:18.51\00:00:21.65
His 50 books have
influenced millions.
00:00:21.68\00:00:24.45
His name is George Knight.
00:00:24.49\00:00:26.76
Welcome back to
The Carter Report.
00:00:32.33\00:00:34.73
Our special guest
today is Dr George Knight.
00:00:34.76\00:00:38.23
George, we are
honored and delighted
00:00:38.27\00:00:40.17
to have you with us here today.
00:00:40.20\00:00:41.54
Well, I'm really
glad to be here, John.
00:00:41.57\00:00:43.81
We just enjoyed what
you said in the last segment
00:00:43.84\00:00:46.78
and we're looking
forward to this segment.
00:00:46.81\00:00:49.91
You wrote a book called...
00:00:49.94\00:00:51.61
I read it, I
thought it was great.
00:00:51.65\00:00:54.55
You're a prolific writer.
00:00:54.58\00:00:55.92
Somebody told me, you
are the best-read author
00:00:55.95\00:00:59.42
in the Adventist
Church after Ellen White.
00:00:59.45\00:01:02.72
That is saying something.
00:01:02.76\00:01:04.26
I'm not sure it's
true, but it sounds good.
00:01:04.29\00:01:06.70
I think it is true.
00:01:06.73\00:01:08.10
You wrote a book called
00:01:08.13\00:01:09.56
The Pharisee's Guide
to Complete Holiness.
00:01:09.60\00:01:14.47
What was all that about?
00:01:14.50\00:01:16.37
Who were these Pharisees?
00:01:16.40\00:01:18.34
Well, actually, John...
00:01:18.37\00:01:19.71
And why do the Pharisees...
00:01:19.74\00:01:21.08
Why do we resonate a
bit with the Pharisees?
00:01:21.11\00:01:23.14
I was coming out of
my own past experience,
00:01:23.18\00:01:26.31
a lot of my writing is
to help me figure out...
00:01:26.35\00:01:31.89
Where you've
been. Where I've been.
00:01:31.92\00:01:33.25
And where you're going?
00:01:33.29\00:01:34.62
And where I need to
go. And why you're here.
00:01:34.66\00:01:36.52
And help guys like
you figure it out too.
00:01:36.56\00:01:38.59
Oh, thank you.
00:01:38.63\00:01:41.50
You know, because
there's a Pharisee
00:01:41.53\00:01:43.00
within the skin
of each one of us.
00:01:43.03\00:01:44.73
Oh, we're born Pharisees.
00:01:44.77\00:01:46.10
Yeah.
00:01:46.13\00:01:47.47
You don't have to
go to the seminary
00:01:47.50\00:01:48.84
to be trained to be a Pharisee.
00:01:48.87\00:01:50.64
It's true,
isn't it? That's true.
00:01:50.67\00:01:52.24
We come at it naturally.
00:01:52.27\00:01:53.68
Yeah, it's born within us.
00:01:53.71\00:01:55.68
Yes, of course.
00:01:55.71\00:01:57.05
And really, you
know, John, naturally,
00:01:57.08\00:02:01.85
we don't want to go to heaven
if we didn't help God out.
00:02:01.88\00:02:04.69
This is right. Yeah.
00:02:04.72\00:02:06.05
I mean we got to do
00:02:06.09\00:02:08.49
something good
for God, don't we?
00:02:08.52\00:02:09.86
Of course, yes. Yeah.
00:02:09.89\00:02:11.69
And that's how come,
00:02:11.73\00:02:13.06
and I start off
with the problem of sin
00:02:13.09\00:02:15.16
because the Pharisee
has to break sin down
00:02:15.20\00:02:18.33
into little steps.
00:02:18.37\00:02:19.93
And so when you
get a little step on,
00:02:19.97\00:02:22.00
you know, you're
closer, and closer, and closer.
00:02:22.04\00:02:23.44
Yeah, a name
for every sin. Yeah.
00:02:23.47\00:02:25.77
And if you
overcome all of those,
00:02:25.81\00:02:27.68
then you're perfect.
00:02:27.71\00:02:29.04
Yeah. Is that right?
00:02:29.08\00:02:30.41
How'd you guess?
00:02:30.45\00:02:31.78
Well, I've tried it.
00:02:31.81\00:02:33.21
Yeah, it's got a
long history to it.
00:02:33.25\00:02:35.82
Yes.
00:02:35.85\00:02:37.19
So anyway, I wanted to start out
00:02:37.22\00:02:40.22
'cause Paul starts out
with the problem of sin
00:02:40.26\00:02:42.46
in the Book of Romans.
00:02:42.49\00:02:43.83
Of course.
00:02:43.86\00:02:45.19
And you know, Romans is really
the greatest book in the Bible,
00:02:45.23\00:02:47.33
well, except for
some of the other ones,
00:02:47.36\00:02:48.86
but it's one of my favorite.
00:02:48.90\00:02:50.60
Good, glad, and merry
tidings that makes a man's heart
00:02:50.63\00:02:53.27
to sing for joy
and his feet to dance.
00:02:53.30\00:02:56.37
Who said that? It's me.
00:02:56.40\00:02:59.17
Glad I got you on something.
00:02:59.21\00:03:01.04
That was Tyndale.
00:03:01.08\00:03:02.84
Tyndale said, "Good, glad,
00:03:02.88\00:03:04.21
and merry tidings
that makes a man's heart
00:03:04.25\00:03:05.81
to sing for joy
and his feet to dance."
00:03:05.85\00:03:08.72
So I figured out, you know,
00:03:08.75\00:03:10.62
we got a whole lot of Pharisees,
00:03:10.65\00:03:12.92
they're not just Jews,
00:03:12.95\00:03:14.29
they're all different varieties.
00:03:14.32\00:03:15.72
We're born Pharisees.
00:03:15.76\00:03:17.09
You don't even have to be
a Christian to be a Pharisee.
00:03:17.13\00:03:18.56
No.
00:03:18.59\00:03:19.93
I mean a church member.
00:03:19.96\00:03:21.30
Yeah.
00:03:21.33\00:03:22.66
So I came across
00:03:22.70\00:03:24.03
the radical
concept that sin is love.
00:03:24.07\00:03:28.30
Well, that one gets just
for a little bit, doesn't that?
00:03:28.34\00:03:30.67
Sin is love.
00:03:30.71\00:03:32.87
Now just think
about it for a minute.
00:03:32.91\00:03:34.54
Did Eve sin when
she took the apple
00:03:34.58\00:03:38.25
or whatever the
fruit was or before?
00:03:38.28\00:03:40.25
Before.
00:03:40.28\00:03:41.62
Yes, she had to.
00:03:41.65\00:03:42.98
Something happened
in her heart and head,
00:03:43.02\00:03:45.35
and after her heart went wrong,
00:03:45.39\00:03:48.32
she reached out
and took the fruit.
00:03:48.36\00:03:50.06
What happened in there?
00:03:50.09\00:03:52.56
"I'm more important than
God, I can rule my own life.
00:03:52.59\00:03:55.30
My authority is more
important than His life...
00:03:55.33\00:03:58.13
His authority.
00:03:58.17\00:03:59.50
So I'm going to do what I want,"
00:03:59.53\00:04:02.87
is just self
centeredness making...
00:04:02.90\00:04:05.97
Well, loving yourself
00:04:06.01\00:04:08.88
at the very
center of our universe
00:04:08.91\00:04:11.05
and all other
problems come out of that.
00:04:11.08\00:04:14.72
And, you know, some people
call this the new theology.
00:04:14.75\00:04:17.39
I call it the new theology,
the Sermon on the Mount.
00:04:17.42\00:04:21.02
What did Jesus
say in Matthew 15:18?
00:04:21.06\00:04:25.03
"That out of the heart..."
00:04:25.06\00:04:26.56
Proceeds.
00:04:26.59\00:04:27.96
So in the New Testament,
00:04:28.00\00:04:30.47
Jesus never
talks about salvation
00:04:30.50\00:04:34.04
is becoming better
and better and better.
00:04:34.07\00:04:37.97
He talks about it as a death
00:04:38.01\00:04:40.28
and the resurrection
to a new way of life,
00:04:40.31\00:04:42.51
getting a new heart,
and getting a new mind,
00:04:42.54\00:04:45.71
and getting a
new record in heaven.
00:04:49.28\00:04:51.89
You're justified,
declared righteous.
00:04:51.92\00:04:55.49
And with this new heart,
00:04:55.52\00:04:58.33
out of it comes
a new way of life.
00:04:58.36\00:05:03.53
And that's the
second great revelation
00:05:03.57\00:05:07.10
that sin and law
are the same thing.
00:05:07.14\00:05:10.21
Say it again, George.
00:05:10.24\00:05:13.51
That sin...
00:05:13.54\00:05:14.88
See, we don't want any
heresy at The Carter Report.
00:05:14.91\00:05:18.11
Sin and what?
00:05:18.15\00:05:19.48
Sin and law are the same thing.
00:05:19.51\00:05:22.58
Now, remember now.
00:05:22.62\00:05:23.95
Sin is loving
myself more than God,
00:05:23.99\00:05:26.89
loving myself
more than other people
00:05:26.92\00:05:29.12
so I can abuse
God, I can abuse you
00:05:29.16\00:05:31.99
because I'm the most
important thing in the world,
00:05:32.03\00:05:33.96
egocentricity.
00:05:34.00\00:05:36.00
And I'm proud of it.
00:05:36.03\00:05:39.37
Some people think that the law
00:05:39.40\00:05:43.10
is the Ten Commandments.
00:05:43.14\00:05:45.87
I hate to tell people,
00:05:45.91\00:05:47.88
but the Ten
Commandments are not eternal,
00:05:47.91\00:05:50.58
they're not universal.
00:05:50.61\00:05:52.35
They were
created for this earth.
00:05:52.38\00:05:54.32
The Sabbath for example,
it was created for this earth.
00:05:54.35\00:05:57.22
Yeah, to us.
00:05:57.25\00:05:58.59
Yeah, and then you think
God didn't tell the angels,
00:05:58.62\00:06:02.36
"Thou shalt not
commit adultery."
00:06:02.39\00:06:03.73
Probably not.
00:06:03.76\00:06:05.09
I don't think they were even
equipped for what Jesus said.
00:06:05.13\00:06:08.70
"And honor thy
Father," no, no, no.
00:06:08.73\00:06:11.03
There's a little book
in my library, two of them.
00:06:11.07\00:06:13.20
One is called
the Spiritual Gifts.
00:06:13.23\00:06:14.57
And one is
called Selected Messages
00:06:14.60\00:06:16.20
that the
principles of the law existed
00:06:16.24\00:06:18.61
throughout the whole eternity,
00:06:18.64\00:06:20.18
but when people fell,
when Adam and Eve felled,
00:06:20.21\00:06:22.88
they had to be negativized,
00:06:22.91\00:06:25.71
they had to be
reworded for fallen humanity.
00:06:25.75\00:06:29.88
And when Jesus was asked,
"What's the law all about?
00:06:29.92\00:06:32.52
What's the great commandment?"
00:06:32.55\00:06:33.89
Love.
00:06:33.92\00:06:35.26
Love your God
with all your heart,
00:06:35.29\00:06:37.49
all your mind,
and all your soul.
00:06:37.53\00:06:38.86
And your neighbor as yourself.
00:06:38.89\00:06:40.23
And love your
neighbor as yourself.
00:06:40.26\00:06:41.60
And Paul in Galatians 5:14 says,
00:06:41.63\00:06:44.43
"The law can be
summed up in one word, love."
00:06:44.47\00:06:47.87
And then the real
clincher is Romans 13:8-10.
00:06:47.90\00:06:53.17
"The law can be
summed up in one word,"
00:06:53.21\00:06:54.98
and then he ties it
to the Ten Commandments.
00:06:55.01\00:06:58.11
And He ties it that, you know,
00:06:58.15\00:07:00.28
"Thou shall, you know,
treat your neighbor right."
00:07:00.32\00:07:02.75
He lists five
of the commandments
00:07:02.78\00:07:04.12
right there.
00:07:04.15\00:07:05.49
And so what we have
00:07:05.52\00:07:07.39
is we have, sin is love.
00:07:07.42\00:07:11.16
It's loving
yourself more than God,
00:07:11.19\00:07:14.36
more than your neighbor.
00:07:14.40\00:07:15.76
The law is love.
00:07:15.80\00:07:19.07
Loving God supremely,
and loving your neighbor.
00:07:19.10\00:07:23.34
And what the Ten Commandments do
00:07:23.37\00:07:25.64
is tell us four ways
how we can love God better,
00:07:25.67\00:07:29.54
and eight ways...
00:07:29.58\00:07:31.21
Excuse me, six ways
00:07:31.25\00:07:32.95
how we can love
our neighbor better.
00:07:32.98\00:07:34.82
And so getting converted
00:07:34.85\00:07:38.72
is actually getting
your love refocused.
00:07:38.75\00:07:41.92
And love is the very heart
00:07:41.96\00:07:44.09
of what
Christianity is all about.
00:07:44.13\00:07:45.63
So this is really what God
would have us to understand.
00:07:45.66\00:07:51.63
Yes.
00:07:51.67\00:07:53.00
It's not just joining a church.
00:07:53.03\00:07:54.74
It's not just joining a church.
00:07:54.77\00:07:56.34
It's not lifestyle issues.
00:07:56.37\00:07:57.71
And it's not
checking off the list.
00:07:57.74\00:08:00.44
I've done all these
things, so I'm almost there.
00:08:00.48\00:08:04.18
Now doctrine is
important. Yes, it is.
00:08:04.21\00:08:06.28
But if you can have
all the doctrines...
00:08:06.31\00:08:08.18
And go to hell.
00:08:08.22\00:08:09.55
And still will be lost.
00:08:09.58\00:08:11.15
You can be a vegan.
00:08:11.19\00:08:13.22
You know, I once met a vegan
that was meaner than the devil.
00:08:13.25\00:08:16.16
I mean, you can do
all this lifestyle stuff,
00:08:16.19\00:08:19.29
you can have all the
doctrine and still be lost.
00:08:19.33\00:08:22.46
At the heart of
Christianity is the love of God.
00:08:22.50\00:08:26.13
And after that,
00:08:26.17\00:08:27.57
then everything
else has meaning.
00:08:30.71\00:08:33.44
And when it
seemed within that...
00:08:33.48\00:08:35.38
I used to teach young preachers
00:08:35.41\00:08:36.75
'cause I
discovered my own evangelism.
00:08:36.78\00:08:39.51
If you can preach a sermon
00:08:39.55\00:08:42.92
based upon the cross of
Christ and the love of God,
00:08:42.95\00:08:46.89
you don't have a
Christian sermon.
00:08:46.92\00:08:48.32
Absolutely.
00:08:48.36\00:08:49.69
And I don't care what it is.
00:08:49.72\00:08:51.63
Tell me about the church,
the nature of the church.
00:08:51.66\00:08:55.66
What is the church, George?
00:08:55.70\00:08:57.40
Well, there are several views.
00:08:57.43\00:08:59.90
Tell me your view?
00:08:59.93\00:09:01.27
Well, I'm going to tell you,
00:09:01.30\00:09:02.64
I want to tell you
one or two views first.
00:09:02.67\00:09:04.04
Some people see the
church as a structure, you know.
00:09:04.07\00:09:09.84
Some structures are
built from the top down
00:09:09.88\00:09:12.75
and the guy at the top
using control of everything.
00:09:12.78\00:09:15.95
But the Greek...
00:09:15.98\00:09:17.95
It sounds a little
bit like us, doesn't it?
00:09:17.99\00:09:19.75
I mean sometimes.
00:09:19.79\00:09:21.12
Not in our best moments.
00:09:21.16\00:09:22.72
No, we don't understand
the nature of the church.
00:09:22.76\00:09:26.23
The Greek word is ecclesia.
00:09:26.26\00:09:29.43
Hebrew word is qahal,
00:09:29.46\00:09:31.67
and it means those
that are called out.
00:09:31.70\00:09:34.57
It's those that had been called
00:09:34.60\00:09:36.20
from what the
Bible calls the world
00:09:36.24\00:09:39.27
from secularism to find Jesus.
00:09:39.31\00:09:42.11
And it's the
fellowship of the saints.
00:09:42.14\00:09:45.41
Now, you know, the saints
really need to be organized
00:09:45.45\00:09:50.49
and so they form a
local congregation.
00:09:50.52\00:09:53.22
But you can see it
reading already in Paul,
00:09:53.25\00:09:55.09
and Timothy, and
Titus in there that,
00:09:55.12\00:09:58.29
you know, they had
supervising pastors.
00:09:58.33\00:10:00.63
And so they
created some organizations.
00:10:00.66\00:10:03.80
And so like in our denomination,
00:10:03.83\00:10:06.47
the local churches get together,
00:10:06.50\00:10:08.44
they elect officers,
00:10:08.47\00:10:09.97
and then the various churches
elect somebody for, let's say,
00:10:10.01\00:10:14.51
a conference like
an Oregon Conference,
00:10:14.54\00:10:17.95
and then they can get
regional and stuff like that.
00:10:17.98\00:10:20.32
But authority is
always in Christianity.
00:10:20.35\00:10:24.19
It's always from the
fellowship of the saints.
00:10:24.22\00:10:29.09
And the people at
the top are not masters,
00:10:29.12\00:10:32.43
they're servants.
00:10:32.46\00:10:33.80
Well, that's how it ought to be.
00:10:33.83\00:10:35.40
Well, that's
how, yeah, definitely.
00:10:35.43\00:10:37.17
Now, that's the
biblical picture.
00:10:37.20\00:10:38.73
Yes, of course.
00:10:38.77\00:10:40.10
I can see, you
got a hook out there.
00:10:40.14\00:10:41.80
That's how it ought to be.
No, no. Never, George. Never.
00:10:41.84\00:10:44.61
Well, I'm going to
be very frank with you.
00:10:44.64\00:10:47.88
Lord Acton had a great saying,
00:10:47.91\00:10:50.71
"Power corrupts,
absolute power tends
00:10:50.75\00:10:53.65
to corrupt the absolute one."
00:10:53.68\00:10:55.28
And, you know,
when you have authority,
00:10:55.32\00:10:57.69
when you have responsibility,
it's easy to think that,
00:10:57.72\00:11:00.92
"Well, I'm more important
because I have a position,"
00:11:00.96\00:11:03.26
not from the
biblical perspective.
00:11:03.29\00:11:07.73
"The greatest," Jesus
said, "shall be your servant."
00:11:07.76\00:11:11.90
And so you know,
00:11:11.93\00:11:13.27
we have a hard
time with these things.
00:11:13.30\00:11:14.84
And even I personally,
I rescued an institution,
00:11:14.87\00:11:17.97
and after five years of
being the chief administrator,
00:11:18.01\00:11:20.58
I felt I owned the place.
00:11:20.61\00:11:22.78
It's human nature.
00:11:22.81\00:11:24.15
It's human nature.
00:11:24.18\00:11:25.51
But you know what?
00:11:25.55\00:11:26.88
That's what God's
trying to work out of us.
00:11:26.92\00:11:28.28
Of course. Yeah.
00:11:28.32\00:11:30.05
So the church is not really
00:11:30.09\00:11:34.62
an institution, is it?
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.73
Not from the
biblical perspective.
00:11:36.76\00:11:38.83
We're talking about from
the biblical perspective.
00:11:38.86\00:11:40.46
From a sociological perspective,
00:11:40.50\00:11:42.26
it is an institution.
00:11:42.30\00:11:44.13
From religious perspective,
00:11:44.17\00:11:45.63
it's the
fellowship of the saints,
00:11:45.67\00:11:47.20
those who have been
called out from the world.
00:11:47.24\00:11:49.30
It's the ecclesia.
00:11:49.34\00:11:50.67
Yes.
00:11:50.71\00:11:52.17
And that's what really counts.
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.54
And what holds the church
together is mutual trust...
00:11:53.58\00:11:57.31
And love. And love.
00:11:57.35\00:11:59.68
And based upon biblical truth.
00:11:59.71\00:12:03.45
And not too much dictatorship.
00:12:03.49\00:12:08.52
I don't think that
Jesus would have gone
00:12:08.56\00:12:12.36
for too much dictatorship.
00:12:12.39\00:12:14.16
No, I don't think so,
00:12:14.20\00:12:15.53
seems to be the very
opposite of the Kingdom of God.
00:12:15.56\00:12:17.93
No, you do not have a church
if you don't have mutual trust,
00:12:17.97\00:12:23.54
the love of God,
00:12:23.57\00:12:25.44
and based upon clear
scriptural principles.
00:12:25.47\00:12:29.94
So you can't coerce people
to do something which is...
00:12:29.98\00:12:34.35
anything.
00:12:34.38\00:12:35.72
And certainly, you
can't coerce people
00:12:35.75\00:12:37.19
to do things
that are unbiblical.
00:12:37.22\00:12:39.35
Well, you can force
people to be compliant...
00:12:39.39\00:12:42.79
And conformist.
00:12:42.82\00:12:44.16
But you can't force
them to have Christian unity.
00:12:44.19\00:12:48.53
Now one little old
lady said at one time that
00:12:48.56\00:12:50.93
that only comes from
Christ like forbearance.
00:12:50.97\00:12:54.80
She said in that same passage
that you can pass resolution,
00:12:54.84\00:12:59.74
after
resolution, after resolution,
00:12:59.77\00:13:02.34
and you will never get unity,
00:13:02.38\00:13:05.21
only with
Christ like forbearance
00:13:05.25\00:13:08.38
and care for one another.
00:13:08.42\00:13:11.02
Then all of us
including church leaders
00:13:11.05\00:13:15.22
ought to think about
these things very carefully,
00:13:15.26\00:13:18.73
the very nature of the church.
00:13:18.76\00:13:20.23
That's right.
00:13:20.26\00:13:21.60
The basis of the Kingdom of God.
00:13:21.63\00:13:23.23
And what it means to be...
00:13:23.26\00:13:26.57
You know, some
churches call him president,
00:13:26.60\00:13:28.14
some people call him bishops.
00:13:28.17\00:13:30.21
What it means to hold office?
00:13:30.24\00:13:33.14
And that is to serve the body.
00:13:33.17\00:13:34.91
Yeah.
00:13:34.94\00:13:36.28
We comfort
ourselves by a statement
00:13:39.05\00:13:41.92
from a very important
person in the Adventist Church,
00:13:41.95\00:13:46.29
Ellen White that when it appears
00:13:46.32\00:13:50.06
as though the
church is going to fall,
00:13:50.09\00:13:52.03
it doesn't fall, and the
church goes through to glory.
00:13:52.06\00:13:56.46
And so some people say
00:13:56.50\00:13:58.47
with great
enthusiasm and confidence,
00:13:58.50\00:14:03.51
"Whatever really happens,
00:14:03.54\00:14:05.14
it's predestined to
go through to glory.
00:14:05.17\00:14:08.38
The whole caboodle everything,
00:14:08.41\00:14:10.01
everything's going
to go through to glory.
00:14:10.05\00:14:12.71
This is biblical.
00:14:12.75\00:14:14.08
Well, I think it's a
misconception of the church.
00:14:14.12\00:14:17.72
I think it must be.
00:14:17.75\00:14:19.09
I think if you really...
00:14:19.12\00:14:20.49
John, you and I have studied
these things our entire life.
00:14:20.52\00:14:24.83
Which is not that long.
00:14:24.86\00:14:26.19
Well, it's been a
long time for you, brother.
00:14:26.23\00:14:30.37
When it comes right down to it,
00:14:30.40\00:14:33.77
what the Bible
calls the latter rain
00:14:33.80\00:14:37.07
and the pouring out of
the spirit at the last days,
00:14:37.11\00:14:41.48
things are going to happen
that we haven't seen happen
00:14:41.51\00:14:44.25
since Pentecost.
00:14:44.28\00:14:45.98
My guess is that when
the final events come true
00:14:46.01\00:14:51.85
and they really
get to be fulfilled,
00:14:51.89\00:14:54.62
there's going to
be millions of people
00:14:54.66\00:14:55.99
trying to rush into the church.
00:14:56.02\00:14:58.36
"Those people
are right after all."
00:14:58.39\00:15:00.53
And there's going to be millions
00:15:00.56\00:15:02.26
trying to escape.
00:15:02.30\00:15:03.83
And there's going
to be so much action
00:15:03.87\00:15:05.97
that the administrators
on the bean counters
00:15:06.00\00:15:08.30
won't be able to count it.
00:15:08.34\00:15:12.01
It's going to implode
and explode at the same time.
00:15:12.04\00:15:15.51
What's going to go
through is the church of God...
00:15:15.54\00:15:18.28
The people of God.
00:15:18.31\00:15:19.65
The people of God in
the biblical experience.
00:15:19.68\00:15:22.42
There's not going to
be anybody that can sit
00:15:22.45\00:15:24.12
on top of this thing
and say, "Wow, look it.
00:15:24.15\00:15:27.46
Now we've got 200 million,
we only had 20 million."
00:15:27.49\00:15:30.49
So we're not talking
about the church as a...
00:15:30.53\00:15:34.00
We're talking about
the biblical church.
00:15:34.03\00:15:36.06
Well, not the
sociological church.
00:15:36.10\00:15:38.73
I've read where you've
said the church is the visible
00:15:38.77\00:15:42.24
and the invisible church.
00:15:42.27\00:15:43.61
That's right.
00:15:43.64\00:15:44.97
So we're basically talking
about the invisible church.
00:15:45.01\00:15:48.58
And you know what the problem
with the invisible church is?
00:15:48.61\00:15:52.01
Nobody can count them.
00:15:52.05\00:15:53.38
Yes. Yeah.
00:15:53.42\00:15:55.38
And their names are
written in heaven, aren't they?
00:15:55.42\00:15:58.65
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:58.69\00:16:00.02
You know what I used to say?
00:16:00.06\00:16:02.19
Trouble with Adventism
all started when they learned
00:16:02.22\00:16:04.03
how to count.
00:16:04.06\00:16:06.26
They count everything.
00:16:06.29\00:16:07.63
But you know what?
00:16:07.66\00:16:09.00
You can't count the
most important thing.
00:16:09.03\00:16:11.43
I can't quantify
your spirituality.
00:16:11.47\00:16:13.74
I can't quantify
how you love Jesus.
00:16:13.77\00:16:15.90
You can't quantify love.
00:16:15.94\00:16:17.34
Yeah, I can't quantify love.
00:16:17.37\00:16:19.11
I can't tell you who belongs
00:16:19.14\00:16:21.28
to the heavenly
invisible church.
00:16:21.31\00:16:23.75
But I probably can tell you
00:16:23.78\00:16:25.88
who belongs as a member
of the local congregation
00:16:25.91\00:16:30.79
of this or that denomination.
00:16:30.82\00:16:33.39
Is it not true and
we know this is true...
00:16:33.42\00:16:36.73
By the way, John,
the invisible church
00:16:36.76\00:16:40.46
has members in every
what we call the denomination.
00:16:40.50\00:16:44.07
Of course, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:16:44.10\00:16:45.97
Ellen White said
that, didn't she?
00:16:46.00\00:16:47.44
She said the most were
in the Catholic Church.
00:16:47.47\00:16:50.41
Yeah.
00:16:50.44\00:16:52.17
You know, we
have to remember this.
00:16:52.21\00:16:54.81
You know, we may have
what we call a remnant message.
00:16:54.84\00:16:58.65
You know, Revelation 14,
the Three Angels' Messages,
00:16:58.68\00:17:02.08
that's a message to be given
00:17:02.12\00:17:03.45
right before
the coming of Jesus.
00:17:03.49\00:17:05.12
I wished 1000
denominations were preaching it.
00:17:05.15\00:17:07.19
Absolutely.
00:17:07.22\00:17:08.56
I happen to be where I am
00:17:08.59\00:17:09.92
because I only know
one denomination that is.
00:17:09.96\00:17:11.39
Me too.
00:17:11.43\00:17:12.76
Is it not true that
the children of Israel,
00:17:12.79\00:17:15.50
the Jewish people,
00:17:15.53\00:17:17.07
they were the
remnant people in their day.
00:17:17.10\00:17:18.83
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:17:18.87\00:17:20.20
And they were proud of it.
00:17:20.24\00:17:21.57
And they thought
that God couldn't bring
00:17:21.60\00:17:23.51
about the Messiah without them.
00:17:23.54\00:17:27.64
Without their keeping the law.
00:17:27.68\00:17:29.74
But not only keeping the law,
00:17:29.78\00:17:32.15
but He couldn't do without them.
00:17:32.18\00:17:33.85
Yes, of course.
00:17:33.88\00:17:35.22
They were important.
00:17:35.25\00:17:36.58
Yeah, and they
were perfectionists.
00:17:36.62\00:17:37.95
Yeah.
00:17:37.99\00:17:39.45
And they believe
that the prophecies taught
00:17:39.49\00:17:42.72
that they had to
go through to glory.
00:17:42.76\00:17:45.19
That's right.
00:17:45.23\00:17:46.59
Could there be a parallel
00:17:46.63\00:17:49.36
between those people
and some of us today?
00:17:49.40\00:17:52.23
I believe that the
parallel is frightening.
00:17:52.27\00:17:56.34
And just get me a
couple of illustrations here.
00:17:56.37\00:18:01.64
Well, I'll just give you one.
00:18:01.68\00:18:03.28
Yeah.
00:18:03.31\00:18:05.35
Well, I'll give
you two. All right.
00:18:05.38\00:18:07.08
John the Baptist looked
at those Jews and he said,
00:18:07.12\00:18:11.62
"God can make
rocks out of Jews."
00:18:11.65\00:18:14.99
I mean...
00:18:15.02\00:18:16.99
He said it. He said it.
00:18:17.03\00:18:18.36
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:18.39\00:18:19.73
I mean, He can
take Jews, you know...
00:18:19.76\00:18:21.10
Anyway, my guess is
that God had to bypass them,
00:18:21.13\00:18:25.00
He could bypass us
00:18:25.03\00:18:26.37
if we do not
stay faithful to Him.
00:18:26.40\00:18:29.74
So you don't believe
in predestination, do you?
00:18:29.77\00:18:33.64
I believe in predestination
that God chose Israel,
00:18:33.68\00:18:38.11
and God has predestined those
00:18:38.15\00:18:39.88
who accepted
Jesus Christ by faith.
00:18:39.91\00:18:42.52
That is Roman's predestination.
00:18:42.55\00:18:45.35
What I'm trying to say
is, some have the idea that,
00:18:45.39\00:18:48.92
"Here is the church and
the church is predestined
00:18:48.96\00:18:53.60
to go through to glory,
00:18:53.63\00:18:55.20
this is talking
about the institutions
00:18:55.23\00:18:57.73
and everything
that belongs to it.
00:18:57.77\00:19:00.60
That's a million
miles from the truth.
00:19:00.64\00:19:02.27
Yeah.
00:19:02.30\00:19:03.64
Well, you know, what got me off
00:19:03.67\00:19:05.01
on this and I was
a seminary student.
00:19:05.04\00:19:07.21
I read in little book
called "The Selected Messages."
00:19:07.24\00:19:10.35
You know, we've always
talked about the final days,
00:19:10.38\00:19:12.68
it'll go like fire
through the stubble,
00:19:12.71\00:19:15.85
just go like a plague...
00:19:15.88\00:19:17.22
And the stubble too. Yeah, yeah.
00:19:17.25\00:19:18.75
You know what?
00:19:18.79\00:19:20.62
Nobody reads the context.
00:19:20.66\00:19:22.92
He says, "The angels
will be finishing the work
00:19:22.96\00:19:26.83
and we're going to be
wondering what's happening."
00:19:26.86\00:19:29.13
God has a million ways to finish
00:19:29.16\00:19:33.00
the work of the
gospel on this earth.
00:19:33.03\00:19:35.87
Okay.
00:19:35.90\00:19:37.24
What is the
mission of the church?
00:19:37.27\00:19:39.37
I'm talking especially
about the Adventist church.
00:19:39.41\00:19:44.28
Okay.
00:19:44.31\00:19:45.71
And we could make it broader
to include other religions.
00:19:45.75\00:19:48.58
But what is the
mission of the church
00:19:48.62\00:19:51.62
as portrayed in the Bible?
00:19:51.65\00:19:54.09
To help people know Jesus.
00:19:54.12\00:19:58.29
That's the primary
mission of the church.
00:19:58.33\00:20:01.86
I would like to
suggest that the church has
00:20:01.90\00:20:03.70
an eschatological mission.
00:20:03.73\00:20:05.47
Tell me about that.
00:20:05.50\00:20:06.84
Well, that's
spelled out in Revelation.
00:20:06.87\00:20:08.60
I'll be more
comfortable I think with that.
00:20:08.64\00:20:11.87
Tell me about
00:20:11.91\00:20:13.24
the eschatological
mission of Revelation.
00:20:13.27\00:20:16.51
Is that Revelation 14:6-12?
00:20:16.54\00:20:20.05
Yes, and then verse 14,
00:20:20.08\00:20:21.52
you got Jesus coming
in the cloud of heaven.
00:20:21.55\00:20:22.88
Yes, indeed.
00:20:22.92\00:20:24.25
So we are looking
at the last message
00:20:24.29\00:20:26.19
to be preached on the earth.
00:20:26.22\00:20:27.82
And it starts out with
the everlasting gospel.
00:20:27.86\00:20:31.16
That's the first part.
00:20:31.19\00:20:34.50
Revelation 14:6. Yeah.
00:20:34.53\00:20:36.70
Every other teaching of
Revelation 14 is in there.
00:20:36.73\00:20:41.30
I'm just going
to open it up, John.
00:20:41.34\00:20:42.67
Are you going to read it to
us? I'm going to read it, yeah.
00:20:42.70\00:20:44.34
What's the translation?
00:20:44.37\00:20:45.71
This is the Revised Standard.
00:20:45.74\00:20:48.31
"Then I saw another angel flying
00:20:48.34\00:20:50.55
in mid-heaven with
an eternal gospel,"
00:20:50.58\00:20:52.98
that's how come, because
the gospel is foundational.
00:20:53.01\00:20:56.38
And it's
eternal. And it's eternal.
00:20:56.42\00:20:58.19
It's not a new gospel.
00:20:58.22\00:20:59.55
It never changes, never changes.
00:20:59.59\00:21:00.92
Some people
think, in the last days.
00:21:00.96\00:21:02.29
It's not dispensational.
00:21:02.32\00:21:03.66
Some people
think, in the last days,
00:21:03.69\00:21:05.03
it's a different sort of gospel.
00:21:05.06\00:21:06.39
And it's going to be
00:21:06.43\00:21:07.76
a different sort
of last generation.
00:21:07.80\00:21:09.26
And some people think
that of the Old Testament too.
00:21:09.30\00:21:11.13
They were saved by work.
00:21:11.17\00:21:12.50
No, they weren't saved by works.
00:21:12.53\00:21:13.87
Abraham says, "Father,
00:21:13.90\00:21:15.24
He will save by
grace through faith."
00:21:15.27\00:21:16.60
It's the everlasting gospel.
00:21:16.64\00:21:17.97
"So to proclaim to
those who dwell on the earth
00:21:18.01\00:21:20.08
to every nation, and
tongue, and tribe, and people,"
00:21:20.11\00:21:23.21
I mean this is going
to be a worldwide mission,
00:21:23.24\00:21:26.38
"and he said with a loud voice,
00:21:26.41\00:21:27.75
'Fear God and give glory to Him,
00:21:27.78\00:21:29.12
for the hour of His
judgment has come.'"
00:21:29.15\00:21:31.42
Now some people have
really got it messed up here.
00:21:31.45\00:21:34.59
The judgment is not against us.
00:21:34.62\00:21:36.39
No, it's for us.
The judgment is for us.
00:21:36.42\00:21:38.76
There's nothing to
fear in the judgment.
00:21:38.79\00:21:41.46
One of these days,
I want to write a book
00:21:41.50\00:21:43.06
called "Judgment is Gospel."
00:21:43.10\00:21:44.77
How many books have you written?
00:21:44.80\00:21:46.53
Fifty and I've
edited another 48.
00:21:46.57\00:21:49.07
So about 100.
00:21:49.10\00:21:50.44
So you're going to
write another book?
00:21:50.47\00:21:51.81
Yes, why not.
00:21:51.84\00:21:53.17
Until I croak.
00:21:53.21\00:21:55.91
But listen to this, John.
00:21:55.94\00:21:57.28
It gets better.
00:21:57.31\00:21:58.65
"For the hour of
His judgment is coming."
00:21:58.68\00:22:00.38
Remember, unless
you're knocking off banks
00:22:00.42\00:22:03.05
and abusing people,
00:22:03.08\00:22:04.42
you're going to
love the judgment.
00:22:04.45\00:22:05.79
I mean, all the way
through it, the judgment...
00:22:05.82\00:22:08.29
The judge... It's a vindication.
00:22:08.32\00:22:09.92
"So loved the world
that He gave His only Son."
00:22:09.96\00:22:11.76
Yeah.
00:22:11.79\00:22:13.13
"And worship Him who made
heaven, and earth, and the sea,
00:22:13.16\00:22:14.70
and the fountains of waters."
00:22:14.73\00:22:16.06
Wait a minute,
where did that come from?
00:22:16.10\00:22:17.63
Oh, that's the
fourth commandment.
00:22:17.67\00:22:19.00
Fourth commandment,
but that's good enough
00:22:19.03\00:22:20.37
for Jews to keep
the Sabbath, right?
00:22:20.40\00:22:21.74
Yes, it is.
00:22:21.77\00:22:23.10
Yeah, but where did the
fourth commandment come from?
00:22:23.14\00:22:25.37
Genesis 2.
00:22:25.41\00:22:27.38
God gave the
Sabbath to all mankind,
00:22:27.41\00:22:32.05
and that's what Jesus
says in Mark 2: 27 and 28,
00:22:32.08\00:22:37.02
that the Sabbath
was made for the Jews.
00:22:37.05\00:22:40.69
Now made for man, human beings.
00:22:40.72\00:22:43.99
Anyway, at the end of time,
the Sabbath would be important.
00:22:44.03\00:22:47.30
And then you come to a
second danger of falling,
00:22:47.33\00:22:49.26
falling as Babylon,
Babylon is confusion.
00:22:49.30\00:22:52.47
And, you know,
what the confusion is?
00:22:52.50\00:22:53.84
Tell me.
00:22:53.87\00:22:55.20
Confusing the
words of men and women
00:22:55.24\00:22:59.14
with the words of God.
00:22:59.17\00:23:00.51
Of course.
00:23:00.54\00:23:02.14
Every teaching,
everything that I believe...
00:23:02.18\00:23:04.88
That's the essence of Babylon.
00:23:04.91\00:23:06.25
Must come out of scripture.
00:23:06.28\00:23:07.62
And if it's not
taught clearly in scripture,
00:23:07.65\00:23:09.92
it is not a doctrine.
00:23:09.95\00:23:11.29
And I've got to ask you this
00:23:11.32\00:23:12.65
before you go
further into this exegesis
00:23:12.69\00:23:15.49
because I can feel
an exegesis coming.
00:23:15.52\00:23:17.26
Oh, yeah.
00:23:17.29\00:23:18.63
I could go for about
two hours on this, John.
00:23:18.66\00:23:20.00
I'm sure you
could, just for one verse.
00:23:20.03\00:23:22.46
What are you most grateful for?
00:23:22.50\00:23:25.60
I'm grateful for Jesus
00:23:25.63\00:23:29.77
who came and thought enough
of somebody like me and you
00:23:29.80\00:23:35.38
to give His life that I
might have life eternal.
00:23:35.41\00:23:39.78
That's it.
00:23:39.81\00:23:41.85
What about your wife?
00:23:41.88\00:23:43.22
Are you grateful for her?
00:23:43.25\00:23:44.59
Oh, yeah.
00:23:44.62\00:23:46.96
But she's
included in the package.
00:23:46.99\00:23:49.92
When God's love
gets in our heart,
00:23:49.96\00:23:52.36
it overflows to other people.
00:23:52.39\00:23:54.16
And you've had a great ministry.
00:23:54.20\00:23:55.53
You've had a great life.
00:23:55.56\00:23:56.90
You have a great life.
00:23:56.93\00:23:58.27
Yeah.
00:23:58.30\00:23:59.63
John McCain said,
00:23:59.67\00:24:01.00
when he looked
back over his life,
00:24:01.04\00:24:02.37
he had no regrets.
00:24:02.40\00:24:03.74
You know what, John?
00:24:03.77\00:24:05.11
I can look back
and say the same thing.
00:24:05.14\00:24:06.68
But I have one thing,
plants grow best in manure.
00:24:06.71\00:24:11.45
And I've been up to my
armpits in it for 77 years.
00:24:11.48\00:24:14.45
That's telling you something.
00:24:14.48\00:24:15.82
Yeah and I'm tired of growing,
00:24:15.85\00:24:17.95
I'm looking
forward to getting home.
00:24:17.99\00:24:21.06
Okay. Okay.
00:24:21.09\00:24:22.62
I wouldn't want
to live another life,
00:24:22.66\00:24:25.53
but I wouldn't want to live...
00:24:25.56\00:24:26.90
But you've been
blessed and you blessed
00:24:26.93\00:24:28.26
so many people, George.
00:24:28.30\00:24:29.63
But only because of
what we go through, John.
00:24:29.66\00:24:31.00
Yeah, we support your
ministry 1000 percent,
00:24:31.03\00:24:34.37
and we have a
great empathy with you,
00:24:34.40\00:24:38.14
this ministry,
we believe in you.
00:24:38.17\00:24:39.87
Thank you. We
believe in what you teach.
00:24:39.91\00:24:42.11
We believe in your books.
00:24:42.14\00:24:43.75
We believe even
in your philosophy.
00:24:43.78\00:24:48.42
Are you hopeful?
I am very hopeful.
00:24:48.45\00:24:52.29
You know, I preach
funeral sermons in a red shirt.
00:24:52.32\00:24:57.03
That seems to be
slightly inappropriate.
00:24:57.06\00:25:00.90
Because a
funeral for a Christian
00:25:00.93\00:25:03.67
ought to be a time of rejoicing.
00:25:03.70\00:25:05.63
The next thing they know,
00:25:05.67\00:25:07.70
they're going to see Jesus
coming in the clouds of heaven.
00:25:07.74\00:25:09.34
Yeah, I can understand that.
00:25:09.37\00:25:10.71
You see, before I met
Jesus, you know what I had?
00:25:10.74\00:25:13.64
Beer.
00:25:13.68\00:25:15.14
And the problem was,
I always had to wake up.
00:25:15.18\00:25:19.65
Now I've got this hope
and I love 1 Thessalonians 4,
00:25:19.68\00:25:23.79
"We have this hope
that Jesus is coming."
00:25:23.82\00:25:26.25
So you've got the hope of glory
that the Lord is going to come.
00:25:26.29\00:25:30.19
Amen.
00:25:30.23\00:25:31.56
George, I want
to say to you today.
00:25:31.59\00:25:34.50
It hasn't been a privilege,
it's been a super privilege.
00:25:34.53\00:25:38.13
Then good to be here, John.
00:25:38.17\00:25:39.50
And a pleasure
to have you with us.
00:25:39.53\00:25:40.87
What you say
resonates in my heart.
00:25:40.90\00:25:45.41
I'm going to fuel my team member
00:25:45.44\00:25:47.04
sitting back
there in the studio.
00:25:47.08\00:25:48.48
They're all saying
amen, and they're laughing,
00:25:48.51\00:25:50.95
and they're having a good time
00:25:50.98\00:25:52.31
because not only do our folks
00:25:52.35\00:25:56.15
love you, they like you.
00:25:56.18\00:25:59.19
Oh, that's good.
00:25:59.22\00:26:02.56
And may I say to the audience,
00:26:02.59\00:26:04.26
it's been a privilege
today to have you with us.
00:26:04.29\00:26:06.43
Thank you,
George. You're welcome.
00:26:06.46\00:26:07.80
Thank you.
00:26:07.83\00:26:09.16
Write to me at
the Carter Report.
00:26:09.20\00:26:10.60
Till next time, God
bless you and thank you.
00:26:10.63\00:26:13.60
There is only one thing
00:26:18.67\00:26:20.01
that really
counts in this lifetime,
00:26:20.04\00:26:22.74
your relationship to Christ.
00:26:22.78\00:26:25.61
And then if you have a
right relationship with Christ,
00:26:25.65\00:26:29.28
you want to tell
people about Christ.
00:26:29.32\00:26:32.15
That's why Jesus
said, "Go into all the world
00:26:32.19\00:26:34.76
and preach the
gospel to every creature."
00:26:34.79\00:26:38.59
By the grace of God,
we're going to do that,
00:26:38.63\00:26:41.46
we are doing that.
00:26:41.50\00:26:43.43
That is why we're
going back to Cuba,
00:26:43.47\00:26:45.87
to this communist
land to preach Christ.
00:26:45.90\00:26:50.31
We're accepting an
invitation to go to the vast,
00:26:50.34\00:26:54.64
huge city of Manila, the
capital of the Philippines.
00:26:54.68\00:26:58.68
Been there before,
00:26:58.71\00:27:00.28
but by the grace of
God, we're going back.
00:27:00.32\00:27:03.69
Please support us.
00:27:03.72\00:27:05.49
Please stand with us
00:27:05.52\00:27:07.92
in the preaching of
the everlasting gospel.
00:27:07.96\00:27:10.63
You say, "How do you do it?
00:27:10.66\00:27:12.09
Who pays the bills?"
00:27:12.13\00:27:13.53
We do.
00:27:13.56\00:27:15.00
"Do you get any help,
00:27:15.03\00:27:16.36
financial help from the church?"
00:27:16.40\00:27:18.07
No, my friend, we don't.
00:27:18.10\00:27:19.97
But we get a lot of help
from God and from His children.
00:27:20.00\00:27:24.41
Please support us
00:27:24.44\00:27:26.14
in the preaching of
the everlasting gospel.
00:27:26.17\00:27:29.11
It's the most
important work in all the world.
00:27:29.14\00:27:32.28
Everything else
is almost trivia.
00:27:32.31\00:27:35.38
So would you please write to me?
00:27:35.42\00:27:39.05
John Carter, P.O. Box 1900,
00:27:39.09\00:27:42.79
Thousand Oaks, California 91358.
00:27:42.82\00:27:47.36
Do your best for Jesus.
00:27:47.40\00:27:49.33
Do your best for the gospel.
00:27:49.36\00:27:51.73
And in Australia,
write to me at Terrigal.
00:27:51.77\00:27:55.54
And we promise you this.
00:27:55.57\00:27:58.37
Every dime, every
dollar is going to be used
00:27:58.41\00:28:02.01
to win souls to
our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:28:02.04\00:28:05.65
Please write to me today.
00:28:05.68\00:28:10.12
Thank you and God bless you.
00:28:10.15\00:28:11.49
For a copy of today's program,
00:28:20.70\00:28:22.80
please contact
us at P.O. Box 1900,
00:28:22.83\00:28:26.37
Thousand Oaks, California 91358.
00:28:26.40\00:28:30.54
Or in Australia,
contact us at P.O. Box 861,
00:28:30.57\00:28:35.64
Terrigal, New South Wales 2260.
00:28:35.68\00:28:39.81
This program is made possible
through the generous support
00:28:39.85\00:28:43.12
of viewers like you.
00:28:43.15\00:28:44.65
We thank you for
your continued support.
00:28:44.69\00:28:47.82
May God richly bless you.
00:28:47.86\00:28:49.66