I'm John Carter in Moscow...
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I'm now in Kiev,
the capital of Ukraine.
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I'm John Carter in Petra...
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Reporting from India...
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In Columbia...
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I'm John Carter
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Today, in the Carter
Report we have the man
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who is called the
Adventist Maverick.
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He's a historian, a philosopher,
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a university
professor, and a theologian.
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His 50 books have
influenced millions.
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His name is George Knight.
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Hello Friend, I'm John Carter,
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welcome today to
the Carter Report.
00:00:35.63\00:00:38.13
We have with us today
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the terrific
guest Dr.George Knight.
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Dr. George Knight has
been called in this book
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at least and on other occasions,
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an Adventist Maverick.
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Like any good leader
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Dr. George is a thinker
and can be quite provocative.
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He's not a yes man
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and he doesn't
go with the crowd.
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And today we're
going to talk about
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some amazing things.
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We're going to talk about
the mission of the church,
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the nature of the church,
and where the church is going.
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So my, friends, welcome
today to the Carter Report.
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Time, it takes only a
minute to have eternal life.
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How can you get
saved in a minute?
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It's simple.
00:01:30.89\00:01:32.22
First, believe that
Jesus was the Son of God.
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Second, accept His
free gift of eternal life
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and then you're saved.
00:01:37.89\00:01:39.76
It's not hard.
00:01:39.79\00:01:41.13
It doesn't take any time.
00:01:41.16\00:01:42.56
You can be saved
in a minute right now.
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Pray with me, "Lord God, I
realize that I am a sinner.
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My sin has
separated me from You.
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I accept that Your Son
Jesus Christ died for me.
00:01:52.21\00:01:55.11
I ask Jesus into my heart."
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If you prayed this
prayer, you are saved.
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The next thing to
do is, tell someone.
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Fellowship with other followers
of Jesus, get baptized,
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read your Bible, and pray.
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Choices, we make them every day,
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all day.
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The most important
choice you'll make in your life
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is whether to
choose eternal life
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or let it pass you by.
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If you would
like more information
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about your new life,
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call the number
and visit our website.
00:02:22.24\00:02:23.97
Dr. Knight, we are honored
to have you with us here today
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at the Carter Report.
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It's my pleasure to be here.
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We feel privileged
to have you with us.
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And tell me this,
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why does some
people call you apparently
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the authors of this book?
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Why does some
people call you a maverick?
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Oh, I'm not sure
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because I don't
see myself that way,
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but I'll tell you one thing,
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I supposes because I
don't belong to any club.
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When I became a Christian,
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I decided that I would
follow the biblical evidence
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or avert went
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and I would do my best
to teach it both publicly
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and privately for what it said.
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And so I'd imagine
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you would believe in
the Protestant principle
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of Sola scriptura?
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Yes, I do.
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Of course with that, you know,
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you know that's not
all the knowledge we have,
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but the scripture
provides the framework
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for all of our knowledge is.
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And then, of course, we
engage it with our mind,
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and so Sola
scriptura probably Prima
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scriptura a
little more accurate.
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How did you become a Christian?
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Have you always
been a Christian?
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Well, no.
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I was raised as an agnostic.
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I like to tell people
I never had enough faith
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to be an atheist.
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I mean just
think about it, John.
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I mean, they tried to
teach me in high school
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that all this stuff just
came from nothing by accident,
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you know, it
takes a lot of faith.
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Even though I
was raised agnostic,
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I wasn't stupid.
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So I just said,
Agnostic and Gnosis,
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Gnostic means knowledge
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and A before it
means lack of no knowledge.
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So I'm just happy to...
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I'm not going to be a Christian
because my dad said that
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all Christians are hypocrites.
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So I was just nothing.
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So how did you
become a Christian?
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Well, most of my trouble
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when I was young all
started out with ladies.
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And I met a lady
who is a Christian.
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And she wanted me to
go to church with her.
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Well, you know, I
wanted to be with her,
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I was living on
a ship at the time,
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studying to be a
merchant marine officer,
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I was one of the government
Merchant Marine Academies.
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And I went home on leave,
and I met this young lady.
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And unlike most of
them she was a church goer.
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So I said, "Sure,
I'll go with you."
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And then I had to find out
that she went on the wrong day.
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I mean she went on Saturday.
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And so I went on Saturday
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when the next
time I was on leave
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and that's pretty
much how I got started.
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How did she get you
started or going to church?
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What was that experience like?
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Well, it was interesting.
00:05:15.88\00:05:19.81
I wasn't quite
sure about these people,
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for one thing they didn't have
a church building at the time
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and they were happening to
be meeting in my dance hall,
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which didn't set too well.
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That should have
made you feel good though.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And so I started to go
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and several
strange things happened.
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I remember once at the
time, when we were teenagers,
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late teens.
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And this lady came around,
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and this was
during the Sabbath school,
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and she pointed to each
one of the young people,
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and she said, "You
better lay awake at night.
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And remember every sin
that you've ever committed
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because if you miss one,
00:06:01.22\00:06:04.16
you're going to
go to the hot place."
00:06:04.19\00:06:05.69
Goodness. Wow.
00:06:05.73\00:06:07.06
I walked out of
there and I said,
00:06:07.10\00:06:08.66
"These people are nuts."
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Yeah.
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So my first impressions
of church were not good.
00:06:11.87\00:06:15.60
And of course my dad was
very aggressive agnostic.
00:06:15.64\00:06:20.31
I'm the oldest of four children.
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At the age of 19 I
became a Christian.
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All three of my siblings
followed me into Christianity,
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and my dad considers that...
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He's passed away now.
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He considers that
his greatest failure.
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We gave up the truth.
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And so here you're in a church
that is hardly woman fuzzy.
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What came next?
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You became a Christian.
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Obviously you
had a lot of problems
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becoming a Christian.
00:06:50.21\00:06:51.54
Yes, I did.
00:06:51.57\00:06:52.91
And the church was
part of the problem?
00:06:52.94\00:06:54.28
The church was...
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But I never did
join that church.
00:06:55.68\00:06:57.01
I wonder why?
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I just didn't like them.
00:06:58.41\00:06:59.75
I mean, a church
ought to be a place
00:06:59.78\00:07:01.95
where people care about you.
00:07:01.98\00:07:04.19
They had to put
their arms around you.
00:07:04.22\00:07:07.06
They ought to be happy.
00:07:07.09\00:07:08.42
You know, some churches, John,
looked like the city morgue.
00:07:08.46\00:07:10.56
Yeah, I have a sermon called,
00:07:10.59\00:07:13.19
"It's not a sin
to smile on Sabbath.
00:07:13.23\00:07:15.16
It's not a sin
to smile in church."
00:07:15.20\00:07:19.03
So I never did join that church.
00:07:19.07\00:07:22.07
And because my wife,
she wasn't an Adventist,
00:07:22.10\00:07:25.41
but she kept Sabbath,
and she didn't eat pork.
00:07:25.44\00:07:30.75
And my dad was a pork salesman.
00:07:30.78\00:07:32.11
It was all very interesting.
00:07:32.15\00:07:33.48
Goodness.
00:07:33.52\00:07:35.25
But we moved up to
northern California
00:07:35.28\00:07:38.29
and I went to a series
of evangelistic meetings.
00:07:38.32\00:07:42.42
And I heard how the Bible...
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Who was the preacher?
00:07:44.73\00:07:46.06
Ralph Larsen.
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And I heard how the
Bible holds together.
00:07:47.46\00:07:50.13
I got a grasp of the prophecies.
00:07:50.17\00:07:52.77
And I saw where Jesus
fit into the whole thing.
00:07:52.80\00:07:55.77
And I decided that I
wanted to be baptized.
00:07:55.80\00:07:59.11
So you really became a Christian
00:07:59.14\00:08:01.68
through public evangelism?
00:08:01.71\00:08:03.04
That's right.
00:08:03.08\00:08:04.41
To a certain extent
anyhow? That's right.
00:08:04.45\00:08:06.05
And you got some evidence,
00:08:06.08\00:08:07.65
why you could
intellectually believe in God?
00:08:07.68\00:08:10.62
Well, you see I came out of the,
00:08:10.65\00:08:12.65
you know, I was a
teenager in high school
00:08:12.69\00:08:15.32
or early college
during the 1950s.
00:08:15.36\00:08:18.16
And hard proof was really
important back in those days.
00:08:18.19\00:08:21.56
It should be today too.
00:08:21.60\00:08:22.93
Yeah, so creationism,
the prophetic scheme,
00:08:22.96\00:08:26.53
something I could tie
together with history,
00:08:26.57\00:08:28.70
external reality outside
the Bible was important for me.
00:08:28.74\00:08:32.67
And that's really
helped me cross the line.
00:08:32.71\00:08:35.74
Do you believe that
when this happened to you,
00:08:35.78\00:08:38.35
you actually found Christ?
00:08:38.38\00:08:40.32
Well, I would like to say
00:08:40.35\00:08:41.68
that my conversion
00:08:41.72\00:08:44.89
was a two step process.
00:08:44.92\00:08:49.12
Now I knew who Christ was,
00:08:49.16\00:08:51.56
but I wouldn't want to say
I had a relationship with Him.
00:08:51.59\00:08:54.63
You wrote a book
once and I've read it.
00:08:54.66\00:08:56.63
It's an excellent book
00:08:56.67\00:08:58.00
and I recommend it
to everybody watching.
00:08:58.03\00:09:02.97
Is it a book or a sermon,
00:09:03.00\00:09:04.47
I've got to
think hard on this one,
00:09:04.51\00:09:06.31
"I Used To Be Perfect."
00:09:06.34\00:09:08.04
That's it.
00:09:08.08\00:09:09.41
"I Used To Be Perfect."
00:09:09.44\00:09:10.78
That was of series of sermons
00:09:10.81\00:09:12.15
I preach to the
General Conference in 1992.
00:09:12.18\00:09:15.88
And the administrator said,
"This needs to be published."
00:09:15.92\00:09:21.12
And so I put the
stuff together and...
00:09:21.16\00:09:23.49
How did you get
over being so perfect?
00:09:23.53\00:09:26.06
Not easily.
00:09:26.09\00:09:28.76
I'll tell you how
I got there, John.
00:09:28.80\00:09:30.57
Yeah, tell me.
00:09:30.60\00:09:31.93
I looked around
at the Adventists,
00:09:31.97\00:09:33.37
I looked around at
the other Christians
00:09:33.40\00:09:34.90
around there,
00:09:34.94\00:09:36.27
and I looked at you
preachers and I said,
00:09:36.30\00:09:38.27
"None of you guys are perfect."
00:09:38.31\00:09:40.11
And I know why.
00:09:40.14\00:09:41.58
Yeah. You hadn't
tried hard enough.
00:09:41.61\00:09:44.35
So by that time I was
working on structural steel out
00:09:44.38\00:09:47.05
over San Francisco Bay.
00:09:47.08\00:09:48.55
What were you doing there?
00:09:48.58\00:09:50.49
I was a
structural steel painter.
00:09:50.52\00:09:52.95
And so I was up in
the rigging one day,
00:09:52.99\00:09:55.26
about three months
after I was baptized,
00:09:55.29\00:09:57.99
and realizing what a mess
the rest of you people were.
00:09:58.03\00:10:01.46
I promised God out loud
00:10:01.50\00:10:05.40
that I would be the first
00:10:05.43\00:10:07.30
perfectly sinless
Christian since Jesus.
00:10:07.34\00:10:11.04
Well done.
00:10:11.07\00:10:12.41
And I knew I could do it
00:10:12.44\00:10:13.98
'cause I was a young
man of tremendous energy...
00:10:14.01\00:10:17.01
And confidence.
00:10:17.05\00:10:18.38
See, yeah, and you guys, I
know what your problem was.
00:10:18.41\00:10:20.88
You hadn't tried hard enough.
00:10:20.92\00:10:22.25
Goodness.
00:10:22.28\00:10:23.95
That's how I came to
know you were messed up.
00:10:23.99\00:10:25.32
Yeah.
00:10:25.35\00:10:26.76
And there was about two months
after that that I felt a call
00:10:26.79\00:10:29.56
to the ministry and attended
the Pacific Union College,
00:10:29.59\00:10:35.33
a little college in
Northern California.
00:10:35.36\00:10:38.23
Two years later, I had a
call to be associate pastor
00:10:38.27\00:10:41.17
in the San
Francisco Central Church
00:10:41.20\00:10:44.11
and would have stayed.
00:10:44.14\00:10:46.68
The conference
president said, well,
00:10:46.71\00:10:48.04
I only got two
years of education
00:10:48.08\00:10:49.41
when you need more than four.
00:10:49.44\00:10:51.51
So I was going to stay
and then all of a sudden
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.31
they're going to
have a citywide crusade.
00:10:53.35\00:10:57.09
And they're going to have
me be the singing evangelist.
00:10:57.12\00:10:59.55
So you sing too.
00:10:59.59\00:11:00.92
No, I can't sing.
00:11:00.96\00:11:02.36
No. So I went back to college...
00:11:02.39\00:11:03.99
What? To learn to sing?
00:11:04.03\00:11:05.53
What's that? To learn to sing?
00:11:05.56\00:11:07.16
No. No.
00:11:07.20\00:11:08.53
No, I'm a
failure. I'm tuned off.
00:11:08.56\00:11:10.43
Yeah.
00:11:10.47\00:11:11.80
And you didn't
talk back in those days.
00:11:11.83\00:11:13.27
No.
00:11:13.30\00:11:14.64
So I figured the
best way to get out
00:11:14.67\00:11:16.00
of being a singing evangelist
00:11:16.04\00:11:17.37
when you can't sing
in a citywide crusade
00:11:17.41\00:11:19.41
is to go back to college.
00:11:19.44\00:11:21.14
But I felt the Lord
was going to come quick.
00:11:21.18\00:11:23.35
So I did the next
two years in one year
00:11:23.38\00:11:26.25
and then got
out of the ministry.
00:11:26.28\00:11:28.72
And I went to Texas.
00:11:28.75\00:11:31.45
And so how was
your perfectionism going
00:11:31.49\00:11:35.89
during this time?
00:11:35.92\00:11:37.43
What sort of
progress were you making
00:11:37.46\00:11:39.29
in becoming very perfect?
00:11:39.33\00:11:40.96
I went through
stages I thought I was...
00:11:41.00\00:11:43.37
You were getting pretty perfect.
00:11:43.40\00:11:44.83
I thought I was
pretty good. Pretty perfect.
00:11:44.87\00:11:48.20
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:48.24\00:11:49.57
I was kind of
difficult to live with though.
00:11:49.60\00:11:51.74
Yeah. Yeah. You know...
00:11:51.77\00:11:53.11
I wonder why?
00:11:53.14\00:11:54.58
Well, it's obvious.
00:11:54.61\00:11:56.24
If you're perfect
everybody else is imperfect,
00:11:56.28\00:11:58.08
most definitely.
00:11:58.11\00:12:00.82
So yeah, it was pretty bad.
00:12:00.85\00:12:03.69
And finally, I came
to a day of reckoning.
00:12:03.72\00:12:07.46
I can still remember
the day, it was March,
00:12:07.49\00:12:11.19
I can't remember the exact date,
00:12:11.23\00:12:12.76
but it was March 1969.
00:12:12.79\00:12:16.00
I had been a
Christian for well...
00:12:16.03\00:12:20.70
And an Adventist.
I am an Adventist.
00:12:20.74\00:12:22.57
I wouldn't say I
was a Christian I know,
00:12:22.60\00:12:24.24
but I was a pastor, okay?
00:12:24.27\00:12:25.74
You were a pastor?
00:12:25.77\00:12:27.11
Oh, I was a pastor
Progressing towards perfection?
00:12:27.14\00:12:29.28
I have three degrees
in Adventist theology
00:12:29.31\00:12:31.15
and Christian theology.
00:12:31.18\00:12:32.78
And I was doing great I thought.
00:12:32.81\00:12:35.98
And I was pastor
of a congregation
00:12:36.02\00:12:39.42
down in Galveston
in Texas, Gulf Coast.
00:12:39.45\00:12:42.69
And one day I woke
up and said, "You know,
00:12:42.72\00:12:44.93
I'm just as messed
up as I used to be."
00:12:44.96\00:12:48.13
I have this theory that
there's two kinds of sins,
00:12:48.16\00:12:52.67
nasty sins and vegetarian sins.
00:12:52.70\00:12:56.67
Oh. Yeah.
00:12:56.71\00:12:58.04
You know, what the nasty...
I'd left off the nasty one.
00:12:58.07\00:12:59.41
Yes, yes.
00:12:59.44\00:13:00.78
I think we all know
what the nasty ones are.
00:13:00.81\00:13:02.78
You know, thou shalt
not be playing around
00:13:02.81\00:13:04.85
with other
ladies, keep your money,
00:13:04.88\00:13:06.78
keep your hands
off people's money,
00:13:06.82\00:13:08.95
don't bump them off.
00:13:08.98\00:13:10.95
But the vegetarian sin
00:13:10.99\00:13:12.52
is you're just
better than other people.
00:13:12.55\00:13:14.09
Describe to me
the vegetarian sin?
00:13:17.19\00:13:19.16
Why do you call
it a vegetarian sin?
00:13:19.19\00:13:22.06
Well, because people all
over in churches practice it.
00:13:22.10\00:13:26.33
You know, they've
given up the nasty stuff
00:13:26.37\00:13:28.34
and now they're in church
00:13:28.37\00:13:29.70
and they think they're
better than other people,
00:13:29.74\00:13:31.14
you know.
00:13:31.17\00:13:32.51
And most of
them are vegetarians?
00:13:32.54\00:13:34.28
Well, I don't know if
they're vegetarians or not.
00:13:34.31\00:13:37.71
But what I mean is,
00:13:37.75\00:13:40.38
you know, we could call
the sin of the Pharisee,
00:13:40.42\00:13:42.38
it's the sin of goodness.
00:13:42.42\00:13:44.02
I'm better than you.
00:13:44.05\00:13:45.39
I pay tithe, I
do this, I do that.
00:13:45.42\00:13:47.56
And so I was just, you know,
00:13:47.59\00:13:49.69
'cause the center
of all sin is pride.
00:13:49.72\00:13:52.43
Of course.
00:13:52.46\00:13:53.80
It's love of
yourself and loving yourself
00:13:53.83\00:13:57.27
in a prideful way.
00:13:57.30\00:13:58.77
And if I love
myself more than God,
00:13:58.80\00:14:00.67
I can abuse His
name, I can abuse His day.
00:14:00.70\00:14:04.54
And if I love
myself more than you
00:14:04.57\00:14:06.07
and I'm big enough,
I'll take your stuff.
00:14:06.11\00:14:09.64
So pride and self centeredness
is at the very core.
00:14:09.68\00:14:14.42
And I have found
out that I had moved
00:14:14.45\00:14:17.65
from being a secular person
00:14:17.69\00:14:20.29
to being a very
sick church member.
00:14:20.32\00:14:24.79
See, I don't
want to say Christian.
00:14:24.83\00:14:26.93
No. No, because...
00:14:26.96\00:14:28.30
A religionist.
00:14:28.33\00:14:29.66
Yeah, somebody
that goes to church
00:14:29.70\00:14:32.43
and maybe even preaches
isn't necessarily a Christian.
00:14:32.47\00:14:38.57
And so I came to a crisis point
00:14:38.61\00:14:41.18
and I remember
taking out my wallet,
00:14:41.21\00:14:44.48
you know, sitting at
my desk in March of 1969,
00:14:44.51\00:14:48.38
and getting out my
ministerial credential,
00:14:48.42\00:14:51.15
and sending it to my
conference administrator,
00:14:51.19\00:14:54.76
resigning from the
Seventh-day Adventist ministry,
00:14:54.79\00:14:58.69
going to leave Christianity,
go back to my happy hedonism.
00:14:58.73\00:15:04.13
And with that I went off
00:15:04.17\00:15:06.63
to study
philosophy for six years.
00:15:06.67\00:15:09.04
And...
00:15:09.07\00:15:10.41
Where did you do
this, in Houston, isn't it?
00:15:10.44\00:15:11.77
University of Houston.
00:15:11.81\00:15:13.34
Tell me about this experience?
00:15:13.38\00:15:15.01
Well, it was a
good experience for me
00:15:15.04\00:15:18.18
because I was still
looking for the answer.
00:15:18.21\00:15:20.32
So philosophy for six years?
00:15:20.35\00:15:22.58
Well, yeah.
00:15:22.62\00:15:23.95
That's a long time.
00:15:23.99\00:15:25.32
I was pretty interested
in a philosophy of education
00:15:25.35\00:15:26.96
because I wanted to get a job.
00:15:26.99\00:15:28.39
Of course.
00:15:28.42\00:15:30.06
So, but at the end of six years
I discovered that philosophy
00:15:30.09\00:15:34.23
did not hold the answer
and that came as a shock to me.
00:15:34.26\00:15:40.27
And my major
professor was an atheist,
00:15:40.30\00:15:44.71
he was an extensionist,
00:15:44.74\00:15:47.41
and every day in
class he smashed religion.
00:15:47.44\00:15:51.91
Well, if an agnostic...
00:15:51.95\00:15:53.28
Every day?
00:15:53.31\00:15:54.65
Yeah, for
backslidden agnostic type
00:15:54.68\00:15:56.99
pastor could have said amen.
00:15:57.02\00:15:58.35
I would have said amen.
00:15:58.39\00:16:00.09
But then one day,
I am in his office.
00:16:00.12\00:16:02.12
You were doing a doctorate?
00:16:02.16\00:16:03.49
Yes. Yes.
00:16:03.53\00:16:04.86
And he said to me, George,
he says if I wasn't a Jew,
00:16:04.89\00:16:08.23
I'd be a nobody.
00:16:08.26\00:16:09.70
Said, "What do you mean, Josh,
you don't even like religion."
00:16:09.73\00:16:14.20
And he said,
"You don't understand,
00:16:14.24\00:16:16.14
I belong to the community."
00:16:16.17\00:16:19.54
I'm not just one of those
millions of people out there.
00:16:19.57\00:16:22.41
I belong to the
Jewish community.
00:16:22.44\00:16:24.11
They sent me all over the world
as a speaker to hold seminars.
00:16:24.15\00:16:29.18
And I'm saying
to myself, "Oh my,
00:16:29.22\00:16:30.62
this guy could be a Baptist.
00:16:30.65\00:16:32.39
He could be a Catholic.
00:16:32.42\00:16:34.26
He could be an Adventist."
00:16:34.29\00:16:35.62
I mean, just
because he's a Jew...
00:16:35.66\00:16:36.99
And suddenly, it
all came together.
00:16:37.03\00:16:41.06
In any religious organization
there are true believers
00:16:41.10\00:16:45.40
and there are people that
that is their social location,
00:16:45.43\00:16:49.34
that's where they were born.
00:16:49.37\00:16:50.77
And with that another...
00:16:50.81\00:16:52.94
See I'd already come to a
conclusion that philosophy
00:16:52.97\00:16:55.54
was bankrupt in
terms of real answers.
00:16:55.58\00:16:57.58
Which it is.
00:16:57.61\00:16:58.95
Yeah, and now Josh helped me see
00:16:58.98\00:17:02.35
what I should have seen.
00:17:02.38\00:17:05.12
In Matthew 13,
that the good fish
00:17:05.15\00:17:08.49
and the bad fish
are all swimming around
00:17:08.52\00:17:10.36
in the pond until they eschaton,
00:17:10.39\00:17:11.89
until Jesus comes again.
00:17:11.93\00:17:14.10
And that Jesus had told us
00:17:14.13\00:17:16.83
that church is going to
have a lot of social Christians
00:17:16.87\00:17:21.24
mixed in with believers.
00:17:21.27\00:17:24.24
I should say
social church members
00:17:24.27\00:17:27.28
mixed in with believing
Christian church members.
00:17:27.31\00:17:30.85
And then a third thing happened,
00:17:30.88\00:17:33.62
a man got invited to my
house and don't tell me how,
00:17:33.65\00:17:37.42
but I never
wanted to see him again.
00:17:37.45\00:17:40.26
He was my first Bible teacher
at Pacific Union College.
00:17:40.29\00:17:43.99
So you knew him. You
already sat in his class.
00:17:44.03\00:17:45.99
I knew him. He was
my favorite teacher.
00:17:46.03\00:17:49.66
You did a degree
with him in theology.
00:17:49.70\00:17:52.37
Yeah, I did my first
degree, my bachelor's degree.
00:17:52.40\00:17:54.97
That was a big help, wasn't it?
00:17:55.00\00:17:56.34
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:56.37\00:17:57.71
Well, he got
invited to my house,
00:17:57.74\00:17:59.07
spent the whole day
with me, knew my problem,
00:17:59.11\00:18:01.71
never said one word.
00:18:01.74\00:18:05.08
He just exuded the
sweet love of Jesus.
00:18:05.11\00:18:08.15
And when he left,
00:18:08.18\00:18:09.62
I told my wife
he has what I need.
00:18:09.65\00:18:13.79
I met Jesus that
day in Robert Olson.
00:18:13.82\00:18:18.13
And I've never turned back.
00:18:18.16\00:18:21.93
So 14 years after I got baptized
00:18:21.96\00:18:26.80
into the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
00:18:26.84\00:18:30.24
I became a Christian.
00:18:30.27\00:18:32.47
That's my conversion story.
00:18:32.51\00:18:34.34
Had you been reading your Bible?
00:18:34.38\00:18:36.38
No.
00:18:36.41\00:18:37.75
For six years I
didn't read my Bible or pray.
00:18:37.78\00:18:41.05
What about when
you were a pastor?
00:18:41.08\00:18:42.82
Did you read your Bible?
00:18:42.85\00:18:44.19
Oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I read somewhere
00:18:44.22\00:18:46.59
you're supposed to
spend a thoughtful hour
00:18:46.62\00:18:47.96
every day in the life of Christ.
00:18:47.99\00:18:50.69
Well, I didn't
quite make an hour,
00:18:50.73\00:18:52.39
but, you know, I read it.
00:18:52.43\00:18:53.86
Oh, boy, I'm going
to get my 30 minutes
00:18:53.90\00:18:55.46
and my 15 minute...
00:18:55.50\00:18:56.83
I'm going to do my thing
00:18:56.87\00:18:58.33
and I could read
it through once a year
00:18:58.37\00:18:59.77
and I could do everything.
00:18:59.80\00:19:01.40
And I had a lot of it memorized.
00:19:01.44\00:19:03.47
I mean, I was good
at that kind of stuff.
00:19:03.51\00:19:06.01
I would have made a wonderful
Pharisee back in the old days.
00:19:06.04\00:19:08.34
So you were
searching the scriptures?
00:19:08.38\00:19:10.25
Well, I was
searching the scriptures,
00:19:10.28\00:19:11.95
but I'm not quite sure
I had the right spirit.
00:19:11.98\00:19:14.75
So from the Olson
experience where did you go?
00:19:14.78\00:19:19.02
How did you saw a testimony
for Christ in this man?
00:19:19.05\00:19:25.33
Or how did you find
the gospel from there?
00:19:25.36\00:19:28.80
Well, I'll tell you the truth.
00:19:28.83\00:19:31.20
I had lectured on the
gospel without experiencing it.
00:19:31.23\00:19:36.91
Can you identify
with some of the stuff?
00:19:36.94\00:19:38.27
Of course.
00:19:38.31\00:19:39.64
Yeah, I mean, I was
teaching other people
00:19:39.67\00:19:41.74
the theory of salvation.
00:19:41.78\00:19:44.58
So I mean, I know
all about justification,
00:19:44.61\00:19:46.75
sanctification...
00:19:46.78\00:19:48.12
So you knew this.
00:19:48.15\00:19:49.48
Yes, I knew it.
00:19:49.52\00:19:52.25
But I hadn't experienced
a personal relationship
00:19:52.29\00:19:54.52
with Jesus Christ.
00:19:54.56\00:19:55.89
So you hadn't had a
revelation like Paul had it?
00:19:55.92\00:19:58.69
No, I hadn't met Christ
on the road to Damascus.
00:19:58.73\00:20:02.60
I just had the Torah.
00:20:02.63\00:20:03.97
But you were a
super religionist.
00:20:04.00\00:20:06.97
Oh man, I was good at it.
00:20:07.00\00:20:08.90
I could imagine.
00:20:08.94\00:20:12.64
But I was not the kind of
guy you'd want to live with.
00:20:12.67\00:20:16.31
Are you not too
hard on yourself?
00:20:16.34\00:20:17.98
No, I don't think so.
00:20:18.01\00:20:19.68
So you're pretty hard on people
because you were critical?
00:20:19.71\00:20:22.62
I was very critical.
00:20:22.65\00:20:24.02
Well, of course if...
00:20:24.05\00:20:25.39
And I had all the proof.
00:20:25.42\00:20:27.06
You know, what I mean by proof?
00:20:27.09\00:20:28.99
Now, you've
preached a famous sermon.
00:20:29.02\00:20:32.63
I don't think they would publish
00:20:32.66\00:20:34.00
a book on this one.
00:20:34.03\00:20:35.56
Oh, I bet, I think, I
know what you're going to say
00:20:35.60\00:20:37.90
and I bet you, I
could publish this book on.
00:20:37.93\00:20:39.80
Let me say it.
00:20:39.83\00:20:41.87
You preached a sermon on
00:20:41.90\00:20:43.81
why I don't like
Seventh-day Adventists.
00:20:43.84\00:20:46.98
Is that the book,
00:20:47.01\00:20:48.68
a potential book
you're thinking of?
00:20:48.71\00:20:50.21
Why I don't like Adventists.
00:20:50.25\00:20:51.58
Never put the
Seventh-day in there.
00:20:51.61\00:20:53.35
Yeah, but I had a message.
00:20:53.38\00:20:57.75
I love Christians.
00:20:57.79\00:20:59.89
And if they
were only Adventists,
00:20:59.92\00:21:02.36
I could say same thing
about Baptists, Catholics,
00:21:02.39\00:21:04.69
Methodists.
00:21:04.73\00:21:06.06
If they only have a
denomination or affiliation,
00:21:06.09\00:21:09.36
but no Jesus
Christ, I won't lose.
00:21:09.40\00:21:13.94
And so, yeah, I happen
to love Christian Adventist
00:21:13.97\00:21:19.61
and Christian
whatever denomination...
00:21:19.64\00:21:21.74
Sure.
00:21:21.78\00:21:23.11
Okay?
00:21:23.14\00:21:24.48
But all they've
got is their pedigree,
00:21:24.51\00:21:27.25
and they don't have Jesus...
00:21:27.28\00:21:28.95
Then they are
Pharisees, harsh and hard.
00:21:28.98\00:21:31.75
That's right. That's right.
00:21:31.79\00:21:33.25
Is it not true
that so many people
00:21:33.29\00:21:35.42
are turned away from
Christ because of "the church?"
00:21:35.46\00:21:41.40
Yes. Yes.
00:21:41.43\00:21:43.57
Harshness, coldness.
00:21:43.60\00:21:44.93
Yes.
00:21:44.97\00:21:46.57
George, I've been to
Russia on many occasions,
00:21:46.60\00:21:48.74
and 49 times actually.
00:21:48.77\00:21:52.04
And we would start up churches.
00:21:52.07\00:21:54.78
And the reason we did
this was a young preacher said,
00:21:54.81\00:21:58.21
"We've got to
start up new churches."
00:21:58.25\00:22:00.88
I'm going to
whisper this, he said,
00:22:00.92\00:22:03.69
"So the new members
are not picked to death."
00:22:03.72\00:22:07.46
I can understand that.
00:22:07.49\00:22:09.12
He said, "If they
go to an old church,
00:22:09.16\00:22:11.43
the odds are, they're
going to be picked to death."
00:22:11.46\00:22:16.06
You've got to do
this, you got to do this,
00:22:16.10\00:22:17.87
you got to do, do,
do, cock a doodle do.
00:22:17.90\00:22:20.67
And you're not doing enough.
00:22:20.70\00:22:22.44
You know, this
is a problem among
00:22:22.47\00:22:25.27
most conservative denominations.
00:22:25.31\00:22:27.64
Old churches,
not just Adventists.
00:22:27.68\00:22:30.05
And, you know, Nietzsche,
00:22:30.08\00:22:32.81
the great atheistic
philosopher once said,
00:22:32.85\00:22:35.82
"The best argument against
Christianity is Christians."
00:22:35.85\00:22:39.35
Well, I've paraphrased it.
00:22:39.39\00:22:41.02
The best argument
against Adventism is Adventists.
00:22:41.06\00:22:43.73
No, I could say
Baptist is Baptist,
00:22:43.76\00:22:45.53
Catholic is Catholic, you know.
00:22:45.56\00:22:46.90
And you were so tactful.
00:22:46.93\00:22:48.26
It just happens,
that's what I am.
00:22:48.30\00:22:49.66
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:49.70\00:22:51.17
You know, I can vouch for that.
00:22:51.20\00:22:55.60
That's one reason I never joined
00:22:55.64\00:22:56.97
that first church.
00:22:57.01\00:22:58.54
I won't even
tell you where it is.
00:22:58.57\00:23:00.71
Well, there is
plenty like that I'm afraid.
00:23:00.74\00:23:02.28
That's right.
00:23:02.31\00:23:03.65
It might have been a church
anyway down the road anyway.
00:23:03.68\00:23:05.48
I'm going to tell you, John,
00:23:05.51\00:23:06.85
that the church I
belong to now is the one...
00:23:06.88\00:23:10.49
We love each other.
00:23:10.52\00:23:12.09
I preached there year
ago January on worship.
00:23:12.12\00:23:15.02
You know, usually we
preached the vertical,
00:23:15.06\00:23:17.49
I preached on the horizontal.
00:23:17.53\00:23:19.53
What is supposed to
happen to you during worship?
00:23:19.56\00:23:24.20
And I told people very frankly,
00:23:24.23\00:23:27.40
you know, when
I first came here,
00:23:27.44\00:23:29.07
I was offended
because you stand here
00:23:29.10\00:23:31.17
in the sanctuary and
you talk for half an hour.
00:23:31.21\00:23:35.14
And after a
while I said, "No..."
00:23:35.18\00:23:37.95
That's good.
00:23:37.98\00:23:39.31
These people have met Jesus here
00:23:39.35\00:23:41.48
and they're sharing His love
00:23:41.52\00:23:44.15
in the sanctuary
for half an hour,
00:23:44.19\00:23:46.76
they don't want to go home.
00:23:46.79\00:23:48.69
That's what
worship is all about,
00:23:48.72\00:23:50.69
it's not just up there,
00:23:50.73\00:23:52.36
it's...
00:23:52.39\00:23:53.73
Tell me this because
we've got lots of folks
00:23:53.76\00:23:56.50
watching around the world.
00:23:56.53\00:23:58.90
And we're glad
you've joined us today.
00:23:58.93\00:24:01.44
And our guest in
Dr. George Knight.
00:24:01.47\00:24:04.24
Tell me in just a few
words, the heart of it,
00:24:04.27\00:24:08.61
what is Christianity?
00:24:08.64\00:24:09.98
What is it to
become a Christian?
00:24:10.01\00:24:11.71
Oh, to become a Christian
is to fall in love with Jesus.
00:24:11.75\00:24:17.39
And why do I love Jesus
00:24:17.42\00:24:18.82
because He gave
everything for me.
00:24:18.85\00:24:21.19
God so loved the world that
He gave His only begotten Son
00:24:21.22\00:24:23.79
that whosoever believeth in
Him might have everlasting life.
00:24:23.83\00:24:28.03
Jesus, you know, the gospel,
00:24:28.06\00:24:31.87
we short circuit
the gospel sometimes.
00:24:31.90\00:24:35.00
Sometimes I preach on the gospel
00:24:35.04\00:24:36.74
in the Book of Revelation.
00:24:36.77\00:24:38.47
The gospel in the
Book of Revelation...
00:24:38.51\00:24:40.01
You ask somebody
what the gospel is.
00:24:40.04\00:24:42.24
They'll say,
"Oh, saved by grace."
00:24:42.28\00:24:45.01
They probably mean
justified by grace.
00:24:45.05\00:24:46.92
Yes.
00:24:46.95\00:24:48.35
Well, that Jesus died for me
00:24:48.38\00:24:51.72
and that's what I wanted to say.
00:24:51.75\00:24:53.25
I got ahead of myself
that Jesus died for me.
00:24:53.29\00:24:56.19
Is that good news?
00:24:56.22\00:24:58.29
Well, not really.
00:24:58.33\00:24:59.66
What good's a dead Savior.
00:24:59.69\00:25:01.43
So over in 1
Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul says,
00:25:01.46\00:25:04.57
"I want to tell
you about the gospel
00:25:04.60\00:25:06.10
that Jesus died for us..."
00:25:06.13\00:25:08.10
"And He was
raised on the third day."
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.54
"Raised on the third day..."
00:25:09.57\00:25:10.91
"According to the scriptures."
00:25:10.94\00:25:12.27
But, you know,
that's not the whole Bible.
00:25:12.31\00:25:14.91
I mean, that
happened 2,000 years ago
00:25:14.94\00:25:18.81
and babies are
still dying of cancer,
00:25:18.85\00:25:21.35
people are still committing wars
00:25:21.38\00:25:22.92
and all kinds of atrocities,
00:25:22.95\00:25:24.79
there's more to
the gospel than that.
00:25:24.82\00:25:27.02
So I call the gospel according
to the Book of Revelation,
00:25:27.06\00:25:30.16
that is Jesus is coming again
to rescue us from this mess.
00:25:30.19\00:25:35.40
And so the
gospel is many faceted.
00:25:35.43\00:25:38.63
But three things
for sure, Jesus died,
00:25:38.67\00:25:42.37
He resurrected
because He resurrected,
00:25:42.40\00:25:45.27
I'm going to
resurrect if I believe in Him,
00:25:45.31\00:25:47.28
and have relationship
with Him, and number three,
00:25:47.31\00:25:50.68
He's coming again to
take me out of this mess.
00:25:50.71\00:25:53.98
Good news indeed.
00:25:54.02\00:25:55.82
From this experience,
00:25:55.85\00:25:57.45
from the great
awakening where did you go?
00:25:57.49\00:26:00.42
Well, actually I wanted
to go, work for the church,
00:26:00.46\00:26:07.30
and I wanted to do
something that I wanted to do.
00:26:07.33\00:26:11.37
You know, I always want
to teach in Union University
00:26:11.40\00:26:13.54
and stuff like that,
00:26:13.57\00:26:14.90
and I thought all
having a doctorate,
00:26:14.94\00:26:16.27
ah, that's wonderful.
00:26:16.30\00:26:17.64
Then I found out and I got there
00:26:17.67\00:26:19.01
and I found out
that all those people
00:26:19.04\00:26:20.38
had problems just
like everybody else's.
00:26:20.41\00:26:21.74
So I wanted to go
teach up on a two teacher
00:26:21.78\00:26:23.71
school up in the mountains.
00:26:23.75\00:26:27.32
On what mountains?
00:26:27.35\00:26:28.98
Over Rockies, you know,
Cascades there, any place,
00:26:29.02\00:26:34.09
but I just wanted
to be with young people
00:26:34.12\00:26:37.89
and work with them.
00:26:37.93\00:26:39.73
I happen to like young people,
00:26:39.76\00:26:42.06
you know, the
generation thing is that,
00:26:42.10\00:26:46.53
you know, you
work with older people,
00:26:46.57\00:26:47.94
sometimes it's like they've
got cement poured in their head.
00:26:47.97\00:26:52.34
Not all of them,
but what young people
00:26:52.37\00:26:54.31
they're still quite malleable.
00:26:54.34\00:26:55.91
And I've always,
that's what I want to know
00:26:55.94\00:26:57.55
and have a ministry,
teaching just small classrooms
00:26:57.58\00:27:00.32
of young people...
00:27:00.35\00:27:01.68
Up in the
mountains? Up in the mountains.
00:27:01.72\00:27:03.65
That's what I wanted to do,
but God had a different idea.
00:27:03.69\00:27:06.49
Yeah.
00:27:06.52\00:27:07.86
Today our guest
is Dr. George Knight.
00:27:07.89\00:27:10.63
And we'll be back
in just a few moments.
00:27:10.66\00:27:13.19
1.3 billion
people live in India.
00:27:26.51\00:27:30.01
Two hundred million
of these are dalits.
00:27:37.32\00:27:40.96
Dalits formerly
called untouchables
00:27:40.99\00:27:44.23
are the lowest
members of the caste system.
00:27:44.26\00:27:47.90
One hundred percent of your gift
00:27:47.93\00:27:50.17
will go to fund
projects for dalit girls
00:27:50.20\00:27:53.30
as an alternative to
slavery and prostitution.
00:27:53.34\00:27:57.31
Your gift of $600
will educate, cloth,
00:27:57.34\00:28:00.71
and feed one dalit girl
00:28:00.74\00:28:03.31
between 5 and 15
years of age for one year.
00:28:03.35\00:28:06.98
Go to cartereport.org or
to the address on the screen
00:28:10.29\00:28:13.79
to send your gift of $600
00:28:13.82\00:28:16.86
and change the life
of one Indian dalit girl
00:28:16.89\00:28:20.43
for one full year.
00:28:20.46\00:28:21.90
For a copy of today's program,
00:28:28.57\00:28:30.67
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00:28:30.71\00:28:34.28
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00:28:34.31\00:28:38.35
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00:28:52.59\00:28:55.53
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