From Arcadia, California,
the Carter report presents
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"The Living
Word" around the world.
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Hello, welcome
to the Carter Report
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with Pastor John Carter.
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I am Dave Deno.
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Today we're going
to ask the question,
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"Are we preaching to the choir?"
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Jesus said, "Go
into all the world
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and make
disciples of all nations,
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baptizing them in
the name of the Father,
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Son and Holy Spirit.
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The Carter Report
team has therefore accepted
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the challenge of
worldwide evangelism.
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Millions in Russia,
Ukraine, the Philippines,
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Africa, India,
Australia, the United States
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and the Isles of the Sea have
heard the good news of Christ
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as John Carter has
proclaimed God's living word.
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You're invited to be a
part of the Carter team
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by praying and by giving
and when God calls by going.
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Right a note now
to Pastor John Carter,
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PO Box 1900,
Thousand Oaks, California,
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91358 or to PO Box 861,
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Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia.
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Jesus said, "With God
all things are possible."
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John, it is so
good to be with you.
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We always have great
conversations and today
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we've put a bit of a hot
topic, got on the table--
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Good to have you with us, Dave.
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It is so nice
to- Good to have you.
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Are we preaching to the choir?
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What are we talking about today?
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Dave, it seems to me
that for many people,
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the church is
increasingly irrelevant.
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Now of course, I am
telling you what I believe.
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I am not saying that my opinions
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here are infallible
representations of truth.
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It's how I see
it after 50 years.
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We do know that one of
the fastest growing movements
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in the United States of
America is spiritual movements
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or anti-spiritual.
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One of the fastest
growing movements is atheism.
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Why? Good question.
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I don't know if I am
adequate to answer it.
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But let me have it a go.
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The Gospel of John,
and if I could get a text
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from here, teaches
Dave a universal truth,
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and of course the atheist
who may watch this program
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will not find this palatable.
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It says the light
shines, this is John 1:5
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"The light
shines in the darkness,
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but the darkness
has not understood it."
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And it says of John the Baptist,
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he himself was not the
light, he only came as a witness
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to the light or he came
to be a witness to the light.
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It shows you how
dark the darkness must be,
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if you've got to
have a witness to say,
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'here is some light.'
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I mean that tells you
something, doesn't it.
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I believe that the human
mind innately is in darkness.
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And therefore, atheism
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appeals naturally
to the human heart.
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I think also to,
and this is giving
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in from a different perspective,
that many people see the church
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as 'grossly
irrelevant' and they see it.
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Now, I don't wish to
offend all my supporters,
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but I am telling you, I've mixed
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with so many
unbelievers and many people say,
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"Well, Christians are
preaching to the choir,
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they are talking to themselves,
and they don't even seemed
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to be aware that
there is a world out there.
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It's very safe
inside these walls.
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Of course, it is.
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It's nice to preach
inside of this church,
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you don't have any
challenges, do you?
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Or not too many challenges.
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And then too many people,
particularly young people,
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and I don't know if most
Christians are aware of this.
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They find it distinctly
distasteful when so many people
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who profess to be
Christians seemed to be,
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they are the main promoters
of wars around the world.
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And I am not just talking about,
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you know, in the
religious world--
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much of the fighting is
done by religious people.
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But they say,
I've had young people
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here in the
United States of America
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say, "Why is it?"
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They've said this to me,
it's a real tough question.
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And it's come from
their heart, they say,
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why is it that the
more religious you get,
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even in
Christianity, the more prone
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you seemed to be,
or more aggressive
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in promoting wars of conquest
and why is it that so many
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Christians are so
intolerant of other people.
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And of course,
in their perception
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this is a breeding
ground for unbelief,
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their unbelief and
that's how they justify it.
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John, it's not a new
thing, down through history
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whenever politics
has mixed with religion,
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it has damaged the
message of the gospel.
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It has caused
people to walk away.
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Yes. This happened as
we all know in Russia.
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I've been to
Russia now 42 times.
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And so I know a little
bit of about the awful effects
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of atheism and communism.
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I remind my young friends
who want to become atheist
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or believe they're
atheists and they're so critical
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of me because I am
a Christian minister.
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They say the Christian church
put millions of people to death.
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I said, "Yes, it's
true." in the Dark Ages.
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But I remind them,
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this was not the
Christianity of Christ.
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This was religion, the
Christianity of people,
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it was not the
Christianity of the Lord Jesus.
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But in Russia
you had a situation
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where you had a
totally corrupt church.
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And you had a totally
oppressive government.
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And so you had it in the eyes
of the vast numbers of people,
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you had church and
state joined together.
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And that was very, very bad.
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And the Russian people threw out
the baby with the bath water.
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That's what they did.
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And thus you have
communism on a nationwide scale
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and eventually the deaths
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of 50 or 60
million innocent people.
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So atheism I tell them,
hasn't got a good reputation
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anymore than does religion.
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Because atheism
has killed the millions
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the same as the
corrupt proponents
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of Christianity have.
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But we must
differentiate between
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the religion of the Bible
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and an apostate
form of Christianity.
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What I hear you saying is
that in one form or another,
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man-made
systems, will always lead
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to some type of advantage
you've been talking about.
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Yes and history proves it so.
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And thus we have today--
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I know this is
politically incorrect to say,
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but certainly in the
United states of America
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and in some other countries
too, you have religious people
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who seemed to be so
involved in politics
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that they are not
involved in preaching Christ.
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They think that America should
be made into a Christian nation
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and they will be in
charge and they will enforce
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their own religious ideas.
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Now that of course is to take
a person back to the Dark Ages
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or it is to give
us a Christianized
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form of Islamic law.
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So there's not much difference
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between an
enforcement of Islamic law
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and an
enforcement of Christianity.
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What is needed is
the religion of Christ
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and there's something else too.
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I was over a few
days ago on the campus
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of a great American university,
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the University of
Michigan, at Ann Arbor.
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It is a magnificent place.
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I would be proud to
somehow be associated
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with that great
university, it's a credit
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I think to America.
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But many young
people see Christians
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as being anti-scientific.
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Now when I give a
talk on astronomy,
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I get lots of criticisms,
because of my talk on astronomy.
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They say, 'You're
talking against the Bible.'
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No, I am not
talking against the Bible,
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I am talking about
their unscientific ideas.
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A few hundred years ago,
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people were
defending from the Bible
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that the earth is flat.
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Dave, you know
the federal society
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and there are people who
call themselves Christians
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who antagonize thinking people
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because of their absurd remarks
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about some of the
discoveries of science.
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Now I believe that
nature is in harmony
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with the word of God.
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I do not believe that religion
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is always in harmony
with science or vice versa.
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Science is the
interpretation of nature
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and religion is the
interpretation of the Bible.
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And many young
people have been caught
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on the horns of this dilemma,
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they would like
to believe in Christ,
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but so many other people
who profess to follow Christ,
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seemed to be so
ignorant and they're not afraid
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to make the greatest
pronouncements on matters
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of which they don't know
and so this breeds atheism.
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And I believe that
as a Christian minister
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and as a part of
the Christian church,
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I should try to
make the Gospel of Christ
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acceptable to
the inquiring mind.
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John, here in America,
we have the great privilege
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of having the gospel
readily available. Yes.
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Probably most Americans
have heard in form or another,
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the basic message
of the gospel. Yes.
00:11:34.36\00:11:38.29
God exists, Christ came.
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Sin abounds. Yes.
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What part in the
spread of atheism
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does the issue of guilt play?
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It plays a significant role.
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I think many people want
them-I've given you reasons
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why people can have,
why they turn away from God,
00:12:02.87\00:12:06.70
and one of those
reasons is the poor witness
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of so many Christians.
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But I think many people also--
I don't wish to be critical
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of any person who
has turned away from God.
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But I think many
people turn away from God,
00:12:21.42\00:12:24.13
because it's a cop-out.
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If you get rid of God,
you get rid of responsibility.
00:12:28.12\00:12:32.94
Now when the
great Professor Dawkins,
00:12:32.97\00:12:36.36
the hero of all the atheists,
makes his pronouncements
00:12:36.39\00:12:41.89
and he makes his pronouncements
00:12:41.92\00:12:43.59
in the lofty tone of a moralist.
00:12:43.62\00:12:47.11
Considered to be one of the--
00:12:47.14\00:12:48.51
the most brilliant man on earth.
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Yeah, but he'll
say this is right,
00:12:51.20\00:12:54.33
and this is wrong.
00:12:54.36\00:12:55.73
He hasn't got the
right to say that.
00:12:55.76\00:12:57.94
Because unless there is
an objective basis for truth
00:12:57.97\00:13:02.79
that is grounded in the creator,
00:13:02.82\00:13:05.52
there is no good
and there is no bad.
00:13:05.55\00:13:09.53
But he becomes a romantic.
00:13:09.56\00:13:12.90
He becomes a super religionist,
and many of the atheists,
00:13:12.93\00:13:19.51
they are super religious.
00:13:19.54\00:13:22.03
Now Richard Dawkins
00:13:22.06\00:13:23.80
is one of the most
religious people on the planet.
00:13:23.83\00:13:26.91
Now he would be incensed to
be told that he's religious,
00:13:26.94\00:13:31.57
but he's got a religion,
00:13:31.60\00:13:33.24
his religion is
atheism, against God.
00:13:33.27\00:13:39.00
The amazing thing is,
he says he doesn't believe
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in God and he spends most
of his life talking about him.
00:13:41.78\00:13:47.24
Let's go back to the
church for just a second. Yes.
00:13:47.27\00:13:50.78
This might be one of
the harder questions.
00:13:50.81\00:13:53.10
Maybe we'll get you
in a little trouble here.
00:13:53.13\00:13:55.26
You travel extensively.
00:13:55.29\00:13:57.14
You see the church,
not only around the world,
00:13:57.17\00:14:01.13
but then you come
back to the perspective
00:14:01.16\00:14:03.03
of seeing the
church in this country.
00:14:03.06\00:14:06.02
What weakness do you
see in the church here,
00:14:06.05\00:14:10.06
particularly in America,
to reach the world for Christ?
00:14:10.09\00:14:17.57
I think there are
some wonderful Christians
00:14:17.60\00:14:20.38
here in the
United States of America.
00:14:20.41\00:14:23.00
I thank God for the
United States of America.
00:14:23.03\00:14:25.68
It has been the best
in for religious liberty
00:14:25.71\00:14:29.70
and while it is
popular in many circles
00:14:29.73\00:14:33.75
to criticize the
United States of America,
00:14:33.78\00:14:36.41
try going to those
countries that don't have
00:14:36.44\00:14:39.87
the American constitution.
00:14:39.90\00:14:42.84
So let's get things in
their true perspective.
00:14:42.87\00:14:47.67
I think with
the Christian church
00:14:47.70\00:14:49.85
in North America, largely
00:14:49.88\00:14:53.07
as the title of the program is,
the church is talking to itself.
00:14:53.10\00:14:59.19
The church is
talking-- the church is talking
00:14:59.22\00:15:02.65
may be Hebrew, but the
world is talking Greek.
00:15:02.68\00:15:08.31
And so the church is
talking a type of religion,
00:15:08.34\00:15:12.57
but as far as the
world is concerned
00:15:12.60\00:15:14.92
is completely irrelevant.
00:15:14.95\00:15:17.44
And this is compounded of course
by the problem of Christians
00:15:17.47\00:15:22.02
getting up and talking
about scientific things
00:15:22.05\00:15:25.67
as authorities, when
they know nothing about it.
00:15:25.70\00:15:30.58
Now I have a program
that I've put on astronomy.
00:15:30.61\00:15:33.28
Now this is not
to be contentious.
00:15:33.31\00:15:36.49
I am not talking
about the age of the earth.
00:15:36.52\00:15:38.69
Let it be clearly known that
I did not believe in evolution.
00:15:38.72\00:15:43.80
I don't believe in
evolution, I don't believe
00:15:43.83\00:15:46.12
that my ancestors
came down from the trees.
00:15:46.15\00:15:49.80
I believe we came
down from the stars.
00:15:49.83\00:15:52.54
I believe that we
are children of God.
00:15:52.57\00:15:55.26
I believe there's
tremendous evidence for this.
00:15:55.29\00:16:01.22
But unfortunately it
seems to this old evangelist
00:16:01.25\00:16:09.06
that the church is not serious
00:16:09.09\00:16:11.47
about reaching
secular people for Christ.
00:16:11.50\00:16:16.24
When they open up,
what they call a crusade,
00:16:16.27\00:16:18.68
they often open
it up in a church.
00:16:18.71\00:16:22.26
Can you believe it?
00:16:22.29\00:16:23.66
If you're an unbeliever,
who wants to go to a church,
00:16:23.69\00:16:26.76
into the camp of the
enemy and then they'll open up
00:16:26.79\00:16:29.64
on some religious
topic-- that an unbeliever says.
00:16:29.67\00:16:36.49
"Well, they've
already excluded me."
00:16:36.52\00:16:40.18
So this what I feel
is one of the weaknesses,
00:16:40.21\00:16:43.26
is that the church on
the whole and most ministers,
00:16:43.29\00:16:46.77
most of my
colleagues, are really
00:16:46.80\00:16:49.30
on the whole
preaching to the choir
00:16:49.33\00:16:52.61
and thus in North
America and Christians
00:16:52.64\00:16:57.29
are not even
aware of these facts.
00:16:57.32\00:16:59.82
But you've got an explosion
of atheism and secularism.
00:16:59.85\00:17:06.85
And the church and all of
the churches that seems to me,
00:17:06.88\00:17:09.24
Dave, and now this is
controversial, I know.
00:17:09.27\00:17:11.93
The problem is
though, it's true.
00:17:11.96\00:17:15.20
Most churches are fishing out
00:17:15.23\00:17:17.06
of the same
diminishing fishing hole.
00:17:17.09\00:17:21.33
The pond is
progressively getting smaller.
00:17:21.36\00:17:25.38
And all the churches got
the hooks in that same pond.
00:17:25.41\00:17:28.99
It'd be good if they threw
their net out into the sea.
00:17:29.02\00:17:34.04
I think, me thinks.
00:17:34.07\00:17:37.89
I wrote down for myself,
00:17:37.92\00:17:39.53
the church often
has a weak utterance.
00:17:39.56\00:17:43.14
One Christian channel
is actually more interested
00:17:43.17\00:17:47.34
in public
relations than in truth.
00:17:47.37\00:17:50.34
The church often
wants to be liked
00:17:50.37\00:17:52.73
and hence it's
interestingly not respected.
00:17:52.76\00:17:59.39
Many Christians,
and I am included
00:17:59.42\00:18:02.36
myself in this, I am
talking as a Christian,
00:18:02.39\00:18:05.40
many Christians in
fact fulfill those words,
00:18:05.43\00:18:09.56
what you're saying, they
seem to be so apologetic.
00:18:09.59\00:18:14.58
The church has often
become a denomination,
00:18:14.61\00:18:18.13
often have become
hierarchies and their main role
00:18:18.16\00:18:25.05
in life is their perpetuation.
00:18:25.08\00:18:28.10
Self preservation. Yes.
00:18:28.13\00:18:30.14
Anybody who comes along
who challenges the status quo
00:18:30.17\00:18:33.88
is seen as the
devil, because hierarchies
00:18:33.91\00:18:39.15
in church structures
don't like to be shaken up.
00:18:39.18\00:18:42.86
What those structures
want is peace and quiet
00:18:42.89\00:18:49.30
and the
continuation of the status quo.
00:18:49.33\00:18:52.37
This is so also
in local churches.
00:18:52.40\00:18:56.48
It is so in denominations
and the higher you go up
00:18:56.51\00:18:59.59
or lower you go down,
whatever your perspective,
00:18:59.62\00:19:03.75
the more entrench
those systems become.
00:19:03.78\00:19:08.43
And thus they
become more interested
00:19:08.46\00:19:11.32
in quoting the
favor of the world
00:19:11.35\00:19:14.61
than in going
into a hostile world
00:19:14.64\00:19:18.12
and preaching a
Christ who is relevant
00:19:18.15\00:19:21.13
to the needs of men and women.
00:19:21.16\00:19:24.12
Therefore, in
the Christian church
00:19:24.15\00:19:27.12
including in North
America, in many parts
00:19:27.15\00:19:29.28
of the Christian
church, the word evangelism
00:19:29.31\00:19:33.27
has bad connotations.
00:19:33.30\00:19:35.92
And there may be
some good reasons
00:19:35.95\00:19:37.39
why the name evangelism
does have bad connotations,
00:19:37.42\00:19:40.99
because sometimes
the word evangelism
00:19:41.02\00:19:44.95
is synonymous for proselytizing,
just getting some person out
00:19:44.98\00:19:51.20
of one religious
group and getting him
00:19:51.23\00:19:53.25
into another religious group.
00:19:53.28\00:19:55.94
So sometimes evangelism
has a pretty bad name,
00:19:55.97\00:19:59.86
but people are
not aware of the fact,
00:19:59.89\00:20:02.30
most people because they're
not aware of Bible too much,
00:20:02.34\00:20:05.43
I am talking about
Christians, don't realize
00:20:05.46\00:20:07.44
that the word evangelism
means to preach the gospel,
00:20:07.47\00:20:12.21
to preach the good news.
00:20:12.24\00:20:13.96
It is not
talking about some cult,
00:20:13.99\00:20:16.27
it is talking about preaching
the good news of Christ.
00:20:16.30\00:20:19.62
And therefore, I
see the church has,
00:20:19.65\00:20:23.73
having become largely a
comfortable institution,
00:20:23.76\00:20:29.34
where the clergy seem to
be more interested in safety
00:20:29.37\00:20:35.96
and in preserving peace
within the borders of the church
00:20:35.99\00:20:40.86
than going into a
hostile world and preaching
00:20:40.89\00:20:45.95
the gospel of Christ,
like a friend of mine does,
00:20:45.98\00:20:49.26
he's a noted
astronomer, who goes onto
00:20:49.29\00:20:53.04
the campuses of
America's great universities
00:20:53.07\00:20:57.24
and gives tremendous arguments,
00:20:57.28\00:21:00.76
why he believes in
a personal created God
00:21:00.79\00:21:04.83
and he talks to the
atheists and the professors
00:21:04.86\00:21:09.92
who turn up and ask
him serious questions
00:21:09.95\00:21:13.65
and often say away going
saying "You've made me think.
00:21:13.68\00:21:18.25
And my faith
somehow in a creator
00:21:18.28\00:21:23.03
is starting to be restored."
00:21:23.06\00:21:25.54
That's evangelism.
00:21:25.57\00:21:26.94
John, you have reached out to,
00:21:26.97\00:21:30.70
you have spoken to--
well, may be cumulatively,
00:21:30.73\00:21:34.74
around 3 million people
in your years of ministry.
00:21:34.77\00:21:38.70
No, no, no.
That's only in Russia.
00:21:38.73\00:21:41.22
That's only in Russia.
00:21:41.25\00:21:42.62
That doesn't
include other places.
00:21:42.65\00:21:46.36
This figure is bandied about,
00:21:46.39\00:21:48.59
but the 3 million people
are, who came to our meetings
00:21:48.62\00:21:52.40
and this is not talking
about television audiences.
00:21:52.43\00:21:55.20
We're talking
about people actually
00:21:55.23\00:21:57.13
in the seats in
'Palace of Sports.'
00:21:57.16\00:22:00.96
We would open it
up with on a weekend,
00:22:00.99\00:22:04.96
you know 50,000
people and almost
00:22:04.99\00:22:07.69
that many turned away in
Ukraine for instance in Kiev.
00:22:07.72\00:22:11.87
We have 30,000 inside
the hall and 100,000 outside.
00:22:11.90\00:22:16.23
Now we don't count
the 100,000 outside,
00:22:16.26\00:22:18.74
but we have seen in
the former Soviet Union
00:22:18.77\00:22:22.26
millions of
atheists, including thousands
00:22:22.29\00:22:25.54
of members of the
KGB come to the meetings,
00:22:25.57\00:22:28.92
because we didn't open
on a religious subject,
00:22:28.95\00:22:33.50
we open on
something like archeology,
00:22:33.53\00:22:35.86
some scientific topic.
00:22:35.89\00:22:39.33
And yet it's not common.
00:22:39.36\00:22:42.85
This is still rare, to see
00:22:42.88\00:22:45.45
this kind of evangelistic
outreach around the world,
00:22:45.48\00:22:50.30
only a few are doing it.
00:22:50.33\00:22:53.56
As you said, most put
their evangelism services
00:22:53.59\00:22:58.32
into their
churches and they'll say,
00:22:58.35\00:23:00.05
"well, come to our
church." Yes, I know.
00:23:00.08\00:23:02.02
What can be done about
00:23:02.05\00:23:04.09
the state of
ineffective evangelism today?
00:23:04.12\00:23:10.21
I am almost nonplussed
to answer the question,
00:23:10.24\00:23:14.07
because I know
what I've tried to do.
00:23:14.10\00:23:16.69
And I know the
opposition you get.
00:23:16.72\00:23:19.57
And the opposition is
usually not outside the church,
00:23:19.60\00:23:22.50
but inside the church.
00:23:22.53\00:23:25.81
What can be done?
00:23:25.84\00:23:27.21
There needs to be a total change
00:23:27.24\00:23:30.84
in the thinking
of the circle clergy
00:23:30.87\00:23:35.58
and the leaders of
the Christian church,
00:23:35.61\00:23:38.02
a total change in thinking.
00:23:38.05\00:23:41.32
Let me give you a illustration.
00:23:41.35\00:23:43.70
Now the audience that is hearing
this is going to be astounded
00:23:43.73\00:23:47.36
by what I am going to say.
00:23:47.39\00:23:49.79
Many, many years
ago, I was invited
00:23:49.82\00:23:51.73
to run a campaign of my
style in the city of New York.
00:23:51.76\00:23:56.52
So they invited me up to what--
00:23:56.55\00:23:58.34
some have called it the
greatest city in the world
00:23:58.37\00:24:01.10
and so I went up to New York.
00:24:01.13\00:24:03.00
I was met by some
folks at the airport
00:24:03.03\00:24:05.49
and taken to the church office
00:24:05.52\00:24:07.90
and there we had
a committee meeting
00:24:07.93\00:24:09.92
and they said,
how much do you think
00:24:09.95\00:24:12.41
it would cost to
evangelize in New York?
00:24:12.44\00:24:17.85
They said pastor so
and so wanted $50,000
00:24:17.88\00:24:24.33
and we thought
that was too much.
00:24:24.36\00:24:27.95
Now we're going back years.
00:24:27.98\00:24:29.91
I said, "what would you want?"
00:24:29.94\00:24:32.82
Now this was years,
and years and years ago,
00:24:32.85\00:24:35.38
I said "well, a
million to start with."
00:24:35.41\00:24:39.88
They said, "but he wanted 50."
00:24:39.91\00:24:41.65
Now that the people there,
00:24:41.68\00:24:44.40
they are no
longer around of course,
00:24:44.43\00:24:47.14
they were
completely out of touch.
00:24:47.17\00:24:51.12
They were so out of touch,
00:24:51.15\00:24:53.68
it has to be utterly
irrelevant and a hindrance.
00:24:53.71\00:24:57.29
Now I said to them,
00:24:57.32\00:24:58.87
"would you go
down to the television.
00:24:58.90\00:25:00.49
Do you want to advertise on TV."
00:25:00.52\00:25:01.96
Oh, yes. Do you know
00:25:01.99\00:25:04.06
how much it cost
to advertise on TV?
00:25:04.09\00:25:06.46
Oh, I guess it would
be few hundred dollars.
00:25:06.49\00:25:09.26
No, brother, to
advertise on television,
00:25:09.29\00:25:12.09
prime time in New York
00:25:12.12\00:25:13.58
is probably
$50,000 for 30 seconds.
00:25:13.61\00:25:16.94
What! But nobody could do this.
00:25:16.97\00:25:20.39
Well, I may, I said to them,
00:25:20.42\00:25:22.92
I can think of an
evangelist who does that.
00:25:22.95\00:25:25.97
Oh, but we couldn't do that.
00:25:26.00\00:25:27.39
Well, you need
to have some faith.
00:25:27.42\00:25:30.47
And you need to start spending
money in a responsible way.
00:25:30.50\00:25:36.72
Now later on I went to Russia,
00:25:36.75\00:25:39.82
where we could blanket a city.
00:25:39.85\00:25:41.84
Dave, this would amaze
you, but we could take a city
00:25:41.87\00:25:44.93
of several million and a budget
00:25:44.96\00:25:47.22
of less than a 100,000
for TV would be sufficient.
00:25:47.25\00:25:51.54
Ads were only $500.
00:25:51.57\00:25:53.95
And you can go
into places today,
00:25:53.98\00:25:55.44
where you can blanket the city.
00:25:55.47\00:25:57.27
Now people say, it could never,
00:25:57.30\00:25:59.76
never happen,
what you did in Russia
00:25:59.79\00:26:01.58
could never happen in America.
00:26:01.61\00:26:03.98
Yes, it could.
00:26:04.02\00:26:06.02
If we took in consideration
00:26:06.05\00:26:08.14
the different
standard of living.
00:26:08.17\00:26:12.76
The different
costs, but it all depends
00:26:12.79\00:26:16.23
what your priorities are.
00:26:16.26\00:26:17.78
If your priorities
are to simply maintain
00:26:17.81\00:26:22.40
a creaking bureaucracy
or if your main priority
00:26:22.43\00:26:28.54
is to reach the world for Christ
00:26:28.57\00:26:32.58
and then you've
got to find resources
00:26:32.61\00:26:34.73
and put those
resources into advertising,
00:26:34.76\00:26:38.37
so at least people will now.
00:26:38.40\00:26:40.81
Now what I've just said there
is such a revolutionary concept
00:26:40.84\00:26:44.37
that most church
people will at this stage
00:26:44.41\00:26:48.70
they will simply just tune out,
00:26:48.73\00:26:50.74
they'll say "that's impossible."
00:26:50.77\00:26:52.14
Or they might be saying,
00:26:52.17\00:26:53.54
"Oh, John is just
talking about money
00:26:53.57\00:26:56.57
and may be John
just wants money."
00:26:56.60\00:27:00.57
Well, yes I want a lot of money
00:27:00.60\00:27:03.89
for the preaching of the gospel,
00:27:03.92\00:27:06.28
because very little
money today is spent
00:27:06.31\00:27:08.39
for the church in the
preaching of the gospel.
00:27:08.42\00:27:10.61
And sometimes
television stations
00:27:10.64\00:27:12.85
that are supposed
to preach the gospel,
00:27:12.88\00:27:14.56
don't preach the gospel--
public relations companies
00:27:14.59\00:27:19.18
as we've talked about before.
00:27:19.21\00:27:22.20
But it seems to me, and
some would agree with me,
00:27:22.23\00:27:26.57
but because
people aren't doing this,
00:27:26.60\00:27:28.35
they don't know.
00:27:28.38\00:27:29.89
You see, it's a case
of they being educated.
00:27:29.92\00:27:33.25
It seems to me that the
church doesn't need to get out
00:27:33.28\00:27:36.47
of the 20th century or the 21st.
00:27:36.50\00:27:38.64
It needs to get out of
the 18th or the 19th century.
00:27:38.67\00:27:42.15
What do you mean by that?
00:27:42.18\00:27:43.95
Well, church people
today think in terms
00:27:43.98\00:27:49.05
of how much it
costs to preach the gospel
00:27:49.08\00:27:53.04
and to go into all the world,
00:27:53.07\00:27:54.82
they think in
terms of 1844 or 1888
00:27:54.85\00:28:00.77
or when things
costs virtually nothing.
00:28:00.80\00:28:05.04
Now there was a man
I am told this is true,
00:28:05.07\00:28:08.47
I hope it's not a apocryphal,
but I will tell it anyhow
00:28:08.50\00:28:11.84
because it
illustrates the truth.
00:28:11.87\00:28:13.34
There was a man
who lived in America,
00:28:13.37\00:28:17.10
his name was White,
00:28:17.13\00:28:19.24
and he was asked
to run a campaign.
00:28:19.28\00:28:22.12
He was a pastor.
00:28:22.15\00:28:24.81
And he build a house in
a certain American city,
00:28:24.84\00:28:28.52
this is going back
into the 19th century.
00:28:28.55\00:28:30.98
The house cost $500.
00:28:31.01\00:28:34.86
But he was to
run a little campaign
00:28:34.89\00:28:37.29
in that city where he
built that house that cost $500
00:28:37.32\00:28:40.77
and they gave him
a budget of $1,500.
00:28:40.80\00:28:44.86
That means, the budget
for preaching of the gospel
00:28:44.89\00:28:47.47
was three times the
price of the nice house.
00:28:47.50\00:28:50.46
In Los Angeles, in this area--
00:28:50.49\00:28:53.80
a good house is
a million dollars.
00:28:53.83\00:28:56.81
In Arcadia, hard
to buy a good house
00:28:56.84\00:28:58.78
in Arcadia for less
than a million dollars.
00:28:58.81\00:29:01.23
That would mean, to
reach Arcadia in this area
00:29:01.26\00:29:04.56
you would need, in the
terms of how they thought
00:29:04.59\00:29:07.66
back there, you
would need $3 million.
00:29:07.69\00:29:13.15
Now you've got to translate
it, you've got to get out
00:29:13.18\00:29:16.23
of the 18th
century and get into the,
00:29:16.26\00:29:19.19
in and out of the 19th century
and get into the 21st century.
00:29:19.22\00:29:23.77
Therefore, what I am saying
00:29:23.80\00:29:25.87
is there is a
desperate need for relevancy.
00:29:25.90\00:29:30.38
And to stop preaching
to the choir and to realize
00:29:30.41\00:29:34.17
that we must take
seriously the words of Christ
00:29:34.20\00:29:36.70
to go into all the entire
world and preach the gospel.
00:29:36.73\00:29:40.77
And we've tried to do it in
a very, very inadequate way,
00:29:40.80\00:29:45.83
but people have
believed in what we believe.
00:29:45.87\00:29:49.92
They share my philosophy.
00:29:49.95\00:29:52.07
And they say, yes it
is time for the church
00:29:52.10\00:29:55.69
to preach the gospel
to the world in a way
00:29:55.73\00:30:00.39
that is going to
reach masses of people.
00:30:00.42\00:30:03.11
Someone might say
though, wait a minute John,
00:30:03.14\00:30:04.90
now you're
getting really personal,
00:30:04.93\00:30:06.36
because you're
talking about my money.
00:30:06.40\00:30:10.68
Actually it's not
theirs at all, it's God's.
00:30:10.71\00:30:13.77
Everything that God
give us belongs to Him.
00:30:13.80\00:30:17.96
Therefore, I believe
that God has made us stewards.
00:30:17.99\00:30:21.84
And you know the story
of the man who was baptized
00:30:21.87\00:30:25.59
and as he went
down, he'd been a very--
00:30:25.62\00:30:29.78
what should I say,
he was a grasping man,
00:30:29.81\00:30:32.33
he loved money.
00:30:32.36\00:30:33.80
And as he went down
into the baptismal front,
00:30:33.83\00:30:36.77
the pastor saw he had
something in his back pocket,
00:30:36.80\00:30:39.46
he said "Excuse me
brother, I think your wallet's
00:30:39.49\00:30:42.43
in your back pocket."
00:30:42.47\00:30:44.45
He said, you better take it out.
00:30:44.48\00:30:45.85
Now he said it's been a
curse to me all my life,
00:30:45.88\00:30:48.17
it's going to get baptized too.
00:30:48.21\00:30:50.85
Some people need to get
their wallets baptized too.
00:30:50.88\00:30:56.00
Where your treasure is,
there also will be your heart.
00:30:56.03\00:30:58.84
That's what the Lord said. Yes.
00:30:58.87\00:31:02.59
It's a good thing for us to stop
00:31:02.62\00:31:05.08
and to think about these issues.
00:31:05.11\00:31:07.05
We are talking about
it on a personal basis,
00:31:07.08\00:31:10.30
we are talking about
it as the church at large.
00:31:10.33\00:31:14.80
And the question
we have before us
00:31:14.83\00:31:16.55
is 'are we
preaching to the choir?'
00:31:16.59\00:31:19.96
In a just a
moment when we come back,
00:31:19.99\00:31:21.37
we're gonna talk
more about evangelism
00:31:21.40\00:31:23.53
and the role of
archeology inevangelism
00:31:23.56\00:31:29.15
and effective evangelism.
00:31:29.18\00:31:30.55
I am looking forward to that.
00:31:30.58\00:31:31.95
You're listening
to the Carter report.
00:31:31.98\00:31:33.83
Millions around
the world have attended
00:31:38.24\00:31:40.04
the Carter
report programs and seen
00:31:40.08\00:31:41.92
the wonders of
biblical archeology.
00:31:41.95\00:31:44.03
From the treasures
of King Tutankhamen
00:31:44.06\00:31:46.34
to the great pyramids of Giza,
00:31:46.37\00:31:48.04
vast audiences have
walked with John Carter
00:31:48.07\00:31:50.41
to dusty roads of ancient Egypt.
00:31:50.44\00:31:52.73
The journey has
continued as the masses
00:31:52.76\00:31:54.84
have gazed upon
the palaces of Petra
00:31:54.87\00:31:57.15
and the stones f
the Herod's temple.
00:31:57.18\00:31:59.19
The largest secular crowds
attending religious meetings
00:31:59.22\00:32:01.90
anywhere have exclaimed at last.
00:32:01.93\00:32:04.60
He was evidence
to believe in God.
00:32:04.63\00:32:06.58
Please support the Carter
report in its unique mission.
00:32:06.61\00:32:09.05
Write to John Carter,
PO Box 1900, Thousand Oaks,
00:32:09.08\00:32:12.73
California 91358 or PO Box 861,
00:32:12.76\00:32:16.39
Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia.
00:32:16.42\00:32:19.85
Once again that
address is, The Carter Report,
00:32:19.88\00:32:22.45
Thousand Oaks, California 91358,
00:32:22.48\00:32:27.42
or PO Box 861,
Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia.
00:32:27.45\00:32:34.19
Welcome back to
the Carter Report
00:32:39.15\00:32:40.71
with Pastor John
Carter, I am Dave Deno
00:32:40.74\00:32:43.00
and the topic
we're talking about
00:32:43.03\00:32:44.69
today is really a question.
00:32:44.72\00:32:47.78
Is the church
preaching to the choir?
00:32:47.82\00:32:51.96
And we're talking now
about the aspect of evangelism.
00:32:51.99\00:32:56.44
And I want to go back to
this issue for just a moment.
00:32:56.47\00:32:58.69
And I want to talk about it
from a different perspective.
00:32:58.72\00:33:01.91
We've talked about how
evangelism around the world
00:33:01.94\00:33:04.72
has become less and
less effective partly
00:33:04.75\00:33:07.47
because so many are
simply expecting people
00:33:07.50\00:33:11.22
to come to them to the church
rather than the church going out
00:33:11.25\00:33:15.20
to the people, where
they live and sharing
00:33:15.23\00:33:18.81
the message, that really matters
00:33:18.84\00:33:20.66
to them in their life.
00:33:20.69\00:33:22.09
Now one thing that you do
in your evangelistic meetings,
00:33:22.12\00:33:25.91
when you go out to the people,
00:33:25.95\00:33:27.55
did you talk about
biblical archeology, why?
00:33:27.58\00:33:31.77
Let me say you
first and foremost,
00:33:31.80\00:33:33.58
Dave, I am a pastor.
00:33:33.61\00:33:36.45
People say, "Well, you
know, you are not a pastor.
00:33:36.48\00:33:38.54
You don't
understand a pastor's heart.
00:33:38.58\00:33:40.67
You're an evangelist."
00:33:40.70\00:33:42.84
I do evangelism when I can.
00:33:42.87\00:33:46.03
I can't do it more
than I am doing it because
00:33:46.06\00:33:48.70
I don't have the
money, but I am a pastor.
00:33:48.73\00:33:51.33
I have pastored more churches
than most pastors have seen.
00:33:51.36\00:33:54.88
So first and
foremost, I understand
00:33:54.91\00:33:57.00
the challenges
of being a pastor.
00:33:57.03\00:34:00.79
Now we have gone out
into the world because
00:34:00.82\00:34:06.11
we have been motivated by
the reading of the scriptures.
00:34:06.14\00:34:11.57
I believe very much in the
principle that was laid down
00:34:11.60\00:34:14.48
by the Protestant reformers.
00:34:14.51\00:34:16.94
"Sola Christus, only Christ."
00:34:16.97\00:34:19.73
"Sola Scriptura,
only Scriptures."
00:34:19.76\00:34:21.76
"Sola Gratia, only Grace"
and "Sola Fide, only Faith."
00:34:21.79\00:34:24.52
So I believe in those things.
00:34:24.55\00:34:27.69
Now we have been
motivated to go out
00:34:27.72\00:34:31.02
into the world and God
has opened up the doors.
00:34:31.05\00:34:35.22
And God has
raised up supporters,
00:34:35.25\00:34:37.04
so we have been able to do this
in cooperation with the church.
00:34:37.07\00:34:43.63
And we have used a
methodology that involves
00:34:43.66\00:34:47.29
biblical archeology and
more recently astronomy.
00:34:47.32\00:34:54.05
Archeology gives people,
biblical archeology gives people
00:34:54.08\00:34:58.45
some rational
reasons why they can believe.
00:34:58.48\00:35:02.00
And also too,
it's immensely popular.
00:35:02.03\00:35:05.60
Witness the history
channel, they use archeology.
00:35:05.63\00:35:10.60
Therefore I open up my meetings
00:35:10.63\00:35:12.69
on the wonders of ancient Egypt,
00:35:12.72\00:35:15.78
on the pharaohs and
some of the pharaohs
00:35:15.81\00:35:18.05
that are mentioned in the Bible.
00:35:18.08\00:35:21.12
And then we work in the
story of Queen Hatshepsut,
00:35:21.15\00:35:24.38
whose body has only
recently been discovered
00:35:24.41\00:35:28.15
by Dr. Hawass in
the Cairo museum.
00:35:28.18\00:35:32.89
And I tell all of these
stories and then I weave
00:35:32.92\00:35:36.23
in the story of the Bible
and the story of the Exodus.
00:35:36.26\00:35:41.30
And then I show them
pictures from some of the tombs
00:35:41.33\00:35:44.37
where Semites have been whipped
by the Egyptian overseas.
00:35:44.40\00:35:49.38
And I tell the
Bible story and then
00:35:49.41\00:35:53.03
I move into other
aspects of biblical archeology,
00:35:53.06\00:35:56.43
but I try to make it fascinating
00:35:56.46\00:35:59.14
not as interesting
as I'd ike it to be.
00:35:59.17\00:36:02.52
But I do my best to
make it, and people tell me
00:36:02.55\00:36:04.96
they find it fascinating.
00:36:04.99\00:36:07.85
And the thing is
Dave, it has the capacity
00:36:07.88\00:36:11.92
to reach people, who
still have got up a mind,
00:36:11.95\00:36:16.07
who still are
intellectually inquiring
00:36:16.10\00:36:20.05
and people can then say,
"Well, now we have a reason
00:36:20.08\00:36:23.92
to believe in the Bible."
00:36:23.95\00:36:26.37
The leader of the KGB,
General Vladimir said to me,
00:36:26.40\00:36:29.56
"don't forget we
too have hearts."
00:36:29.59\00:36:32.70
And he said "don't forget us."
00:36:32.73\00:36:35.47
And in Russia, the
KGB proclaimed that,
00:36:35.50\00:36:39.00
wait for this,
"I was a scientist."
00:36:39.03\00:36:41.20
I said "I am not a scientist."
00:36:41.23\00:36:44.10
But, said the leader of the KGB,
00:36:44.13\00:36:46.57
"But you're using evidence,
00:36:46.60\00:36:48.59
you're not just talking faith.
00:36:48.62\00:36:50.93
You're giving us
scientific evidence
00:36:50.96\00:36:53.96
from astronomy and from
archeology and so forth,
00:36:53.99\00:36:57.44
so that we can have
a reason to believe."
00:36:57.47\00:37:01.70
I believe that
an unbeliever needs
00:37:01.73\00:37:04.15
to be given a reason to believe.
00:37:04.18\00:37:08.49
About 20 years ago,
there was an explosion
00:37:08.52\00:37:11.98
of interest in the
biblical archeology.
00:37:12.01\00:37:15.88
And like many things
a great deal of interest
00:37:15.91\00:37:19.40
and then it sort
of wanes a bit. Yes.
00:37:19.43\00:37:22.67
Is there as much interest
today in biblical archeology?
00:37:22.70\00:37:27.07
By the people on
the streets, yes.
00:37:27.10\00:37:29.61
By the lay people,
by all types of people
00:37:29.64\00:37:33.86
out there in the world
00:37:33.90\00:37:35.27
have tremendous
interest in biblical archeology.
00:37:35.30\00:37:37.55
As I said, the history
channel has made its name,
00:37:37.58\00:37:40.68
largely through
biblical archeology.
00:37:40.71\00:37:43.55
But today, in
the scientific world,
00:37:43.59\00:37:47.10
on the great
campuses, biblical archeology
00:37:47.13\00:37:51.05
is becoming a memory.
00:37:51.09\00:37:53.30
Is there any university
00:37:53.33\00:37:54.70
that still gives
you a good perspective?
00:37:54.73\00:37:57.57
There is a small university
that I have visited this time,
00:37:57.60\00:38:00.53
last week in
Michigan, Andrews University.
00:38:00.56\00:38:06.43
Most excellent university.
00:38:06.46\00:38:09.60
And on the campus
there is Dr. Randall Younker,
00:38:09.63\00:38:13.55
Professor of
Old Testament study,
00:38:13.58\00:38:15.88
but also an outstanding
biblical archeologist.
00:38:15.92\00:38:19.69
And he's got there on
the campus of the university,
00:38:19.72\00:38:23.41
the Siegfried Horn
Institute of Archeology.
00:38:23.44\00:38:27.51
Now Horn was a great scholar
and a great German archeologist.
00:38:27.55\00:38:32.66
And somewhat a disciple
00:38:32.69\00:38:34.33
of the great
professor Albright, perhaps
00:38:34.36\00:38:37.91
the greatest
archeologist of all times.
00:38:37.94\00:38:41.79
And so he's got an
institute of archeology there.
00:38:41.82\00:38:45.09
And the purpose of his ministry
because it isn't a ministry,
00:38:45.12\00:38:49.20
is to build faith
in the scriptures.
00:38:49.23\00:38:53.16
I've been just associated
with him on some trips overseas,
00:38:53.19\00:38:57.16
I appreciated him immensely.
00:38:57.19\00:38:59.42
But I believe, that archeology
00:38:59.45\00:39:01.62
rightly used can be a way
into an unbelieving heart.
00:39:01.65\00:39:07.89
We've talked about the church
00:39:07.93\00:39:09.30
getting outside
these four walls,
00:39:09.33\00:39:10.98
that we call it church building.
00:39:11.02\00:39:13.10
And important for us
to get out into the world,
00:39:13.14\00:39:16.09
to speak to the
world, to talk to the world,
00:39:16.13\00:39:19.21
to those in the
world about the things
00:39:19.24\00:39:20.89
that are of interest to them.
00:39:20.92\00:39:22.84
And you've talked about
00:39:22.87\00:39:24.24
a biblical
archeologist Randall Younker.
00:39:24.27\00:39:27.39
He has a connection with
National Geographic, doesn't he?
00:39:27.42\00:39:30.95
National Geographic put
out a book on the Bible.
00:39:30.98\00:39:36.03
I wish I had it
here to show you.
00:39:36.06\00:39:37.48
But they've put out an
outstanding book on the Bible
00:39:37.51\00:39:42.19
and when they needed
somebody as an expert
00:39:42.22\00:39:44.86
on the Bible and
archeology, who understood
00:39:44.89\00:39:47.96
the language of the
Bible and its culture,
00:39:47.99\00:39:51.20
they asked him to
be their consultant.
00:39:51.23\00:39:54.56
They had two consultants.
00:39:54.59\00:39:56.62
This obviously was a tremendous
vote of confidence in Randy.
00:39:56.65\00:40:01.06
But more than this, it showed
00:40:01.09\00:40:04.37
the tremendous interest
of people outside the church.
00:40:04.40\00:40:11.62
In the science of
archaeology, in the scriptures.
00:40:11.65\00:40:14.66
And this is where the church
00:40:14.69\00:40:16.06
sometimes can be so
far our of touch they say,
00:40:16.09\00:40:18.43
"nobody is interested in this."
00:40:18.46\00:40:20.87
Well, the point is they
are not interested in this.
00:40:20.90\00:40:23.88
Because what they are
doing is mixing with the choir,
00:40:23.91\00:40:27.51
but people in the
world are looking for reasons
00:40:27.54\00:40:31.56
whereby they can
intelligently believe in God.
00:40:31.59\00:40:35.50
Because in the human heart
00:40:35.53\00:40:37.40
there is hunger
for the supernatural.
00:40:37.44\00:40:41.88
We talked a while
ago about the church,
00:40:41.91\00:40:45.39
about individuals and
about the subject of money.
00:40:45.42\00:40:50.72
Does the church use
money effectively today?
00:40:50.75\00:40:56.76
Well, I'm only one
tiny portion of the church.
00:40:56.79\00:41:00.03
So I can't
dogmatize and pontificate
00:41:00.06\00:41:03.99
on this subject of course.
00:41:04.02\00:41:07.79
It seems to me and
this is my opinion.
00:41:07.82\00:41:11.94
After 50 years
of being a pastor.
00:41:11.97\00:41:15.35
I think too often, Dave,
the church is more interested
00:41:15.38\00:41:20.22
in the
perpetuation of the system,
00:41:20.25\00:41:24.56
than in going into
the cold hard world
00:41:24.59\00:41:27.06
to preach the gospel.
00:41:27.09\00:41:28.46
It is far easier
to sit in an office
00:41:28.49\00:41:35.83
and organize church
members and do a token amount
00:41:35.86\00:41:42.06
of evangelism
than to throw the net
00:41:42.09\00:41:45.38
into the sea as
Jesus had, He said,
00:41:45.41\00:41:47.75
"throw the net
on the other side.''
00:41:47.78\00:41:50.68
Too often the church seems
to keep the net in the boat,
00:41:50.71\00:41:55.41
because it's cheaper
to keep it in the boat.
00:41:55.44\00:41:59.62
Now you asked me
about archeology,
00:41:59.65\00:42:04.95
but can I say this too.
00:42:04.98\00:42:06.42
Not only archeology is a way
into the mind of the unbeliever,
00:42:06.45\00:42:11.37
as I've seen around the
world, but so now is astronomy.
00:42:11.40\00:42:16.37
Really? Oh, big time.
00:42:16.40\00:42:19.50
What makes it so?
00:42:19.53\00:42:20.90
What do you bring?
00:42:20.93\00:42:22.97
Let's bring it down
to what you bring because
00:42:23.00\00:42:25.03
that's your experience.
00:42:25.06\00:42:26.46
What do you bring
when you talk with a group
00:42:26.49\00:42:29.17
and you talk about astronomy?
00:42:29.20\00:42:30.60
What do you tell them about?
00:42:30.63\00:42:33.14
Astronomy has become a
big thing in my life now.
00:42:33.17\00:42:36.85
Well, it's got
to be a big thing,
00:42:36.88\00:42:38.25
because astronomy is big.
00:42:38.28\00:42:40.61
It talks about a vast,
00:42:40.65\00:42:43.39
incomprehensibly vast universe.
00:42:43.42\00:42:49.89
cSome Christians,
because of their zeal for God,
00:42:49.92\00:42:54.66
but because of the
ignorance of science,
00:42:54.69\00:42:57.53
and I say that with courtesy.
00:42:57.56\00:43:00.73
Don't win friends and influence
people by their reactions
00:43:00.76\00:43:05.38
to some of the
discoveries of the astronomers.
00:43:05.41\00:43:08.53
Astronomers say,
almost every astronomer
00:43:08.56\00:43:11.51
in the world says,
00:43:11.54\00:43:12.91
there is clear
scientific evidence
00:43:12.94\00:43:14.31
that the universe is expanding.
00:43:14.34\00:43:16.76
And I can trace it
back to the beginning.
00:43:16.79\00:43:19.13
Astronomers believe
now, that there was a time
00:43:19.16\00:43:22.73
when there was nothing
00:43:22.76\00:43:24.13
and from
nothing came everything.
00:43:24.16\00:43:26.27
This is relatively recent.
00:43:26.30\00:43:28.34
Even Einstein
didn't believe this,
00:43:28.37\00:43:29.97
until he was shown the
proof of it by Dr. Hubble.
00:43:30.00\00:43:34.53
After which the
telescope was invented.
00:43:34.56\00:43:36.87
But the Bible says in
the beginning God created
00:43:36.90\00:43:38.93
the heavens and the earth.
00:43:38.96\00:43:40.33
There has never been so
much evidence for creation
00:43:40.36\00:43:46.37
out of nothing
than there is today.
00:43:46.40\00:43:49.94
Some Christians say,
"well it's a dangerous signs."
00:43:49.97\00:43:52.76
No, if you understand it.
00:43:52.79\00:43:55.72
Now scientists
talk about the Big Bang.
00:43:55.75\00:43:58.85
I've had Christians
comes to me and they say,
00:43:58.88\00:44:00.45
"oh that's
talking about evolution."
00:44:00.48\00:44:02.50
Oh, please, no, the Big
Bang is simply a scientific term
00:44:02.53\00:44:06.76
for the
beginning of the universe.
00:44:06.79\00:44:09.63
But they say, scientists say,
00:44:09.66\00:44:11.04
"it happened
billions of years ago,
00:44:11.07\00:44:12.75
therefore they are
teaching evolution."
00:44:12.78\00:44:14.22
No, that's not
teaching evolution,
00:44:14.25\00:44:17.52
because there is one
great scientist said to me,
00:44:17.55\00:44:20.64
"for evolution to work,
00:44:20.67\00:44:22.74
you can't have billons of years,
you got to have trillions."
00:44:22.77\00:44:27.22
For things to start from nothing
00:44:27.25\00:44:29.64
and to become
complex and living,
00:44:29.67\00:44:32.52
you got to have almost
infinite periods of time
00:44:32.55\00:44:36.74
and then it wouldn't work.
00:44:36.78\00:44:39.89
Dave, a scientist
said to me not long ago
00:44:39.92\00:44:45.68
and he blew my mind.
00:44:45.71\00:44:47.08
He held up a dime, which is like
00:44:47.11\00:44:49.21
5 cent piece in Australia.
00:44:49.24\00:44:51.38
And said, "If the universe
00:44:51.41\00:44:54.15
were heavier or lighter
than the weight of this dime,
00:44:54.18\00:45:00.04
we would not be here,
00:45:00.07\00:45:01.89
everything would
explode or implode."
00:45:01.92\00:45:05.26
I said, I don't believe that."
00:45:05.29\00:45:08.05
He said, well,
00:45:08.08\00:45:10.50
every scientist and
astronomer believes it.
00:45:10.53\00:45:13.23
I said, "Are you putting me?"
00:45:13.26\00:45:14.99
"No," he said.
00:45:15.03\00:45:17.48
It is such a fine balance.
00:45:17.51\00:45:19.88
He said, "this is one reason
00:45:19.91\00:45:21.28
why I believe in
a divine designer."
00:45:21.31\00:45:23.02
I said, "I never knew that."
00:45:23.05\00:45:24.63
He said, "yes,
most ministers don't."
00:45:24.66\00:45:28.77
Then he said,
within a milli, milli,
00:45:28.80\00:45:30.47
millisecond of
the point of creation
00:45:30.50\00:45:32.70
that we called the Big Bang."
00:45:32.73\00:45:34.82
And he said, "I know the
word Big Bang scares people."
00:45:34.85\00:45:37.14
Because they don't understand,
00:45:37.17\00:45:39.95
they don't
understand it's proving God.
00:45:39.98\00:45:43.76
And he said, "this
is one of the reasons
00:45:43.79\00:45:45.30
why so few intellectual people
00:45:45.33\00:45:47.49
really are turned
down by Christians."
00:45:47.53\00:45:50.17
But within a millisecond
of the point of creation,
00:45:50.46\00:45:54.84
four forces came into
being in the universe.
00:45:54.87\00:45:59.45
Strong nuclear force,
the weak nuclear force,
00:45:59.48\00:46:03.42
and so forth
gravity four of them.
00:46:03.45\00:46:06.26
If they had been out
of sync, out of balance,
00:46:06.30\00:46:11.34
by one quadrillionth
of one quadrillionth
00:46:11.38\00:46:13.91
of one quadrillionth
of one quadrillionth
00:46:13.94\00:46:16.51
of one quadrillionth of
1% we wouldn't be here today.
00:46:16.54\00:46:21.62
He said, "this is a evidence
00:46:21.65\00:46:23.90
why I believe in a
creator, in the great designer."
00:46:23.93\00:46:29.26
Now when I've talked
to vast crowds about this.
00:46:29.29\00:46:34.16
I had some of them
come to me and they've said,
00:46:34.19\00:46:36.23
for the first time
we've heard something
00:46:36.26\00:46:37.63
that make sense.
00:46:37.66\00:46:39.74
We are starting to
think that we are not here
00:46:39.77\00:46:42.57
as of by blind chance.
00:46:42.61\00:46:46.20
We are not the
product of time plus,
00:46:46.23\00:46:47.87
matter plus chance.
00:46:47.90\00:46:50.44
But there is a creator God,
therefore I believe that God
00:46:50.47\00:46:54.93
is giving to the church
today the tools to reach
00:46:54.96\00:46:59.60
the world for Christ.
00:46:59.63\00:47:01.49
The question is, are any
00:47:01.52\00:47:04.23
of the choir members listening.
00:47:04.26\00:47:06.98
The tools to reach
the world for Christ.
00:47:07.01\00:47:10.97
And that's what
you've been talking about.
00:47:11.00\00:47:12.79
We've been talking
about some of the tools
00:47:12.82\00:47:14.60
that you used to
reach out to the world.
00:47:14.63\00:47:17.15
There is a great
saying by the old evangelist.
00:47:17.18\00:47:21.32
Some people want to live
in the sound of chapel bells.
00:47:21.35\00:47:24.67
But I want to build
a mission just a yard
00:47:24.70\00:47:27.62
from the gates of hell.
00:47:27.66\00:47:29.45
That's pretty good.
00:47:29.48\00:47:31.32
That's what you do.
00:47:31.35\00:47:32.88
In your own way, you do that.
00:47:32.91\00:47:34.85
In an adequate
way we try to do it.
00:47:34.88\00:47:37.51
But, Dave, it is true,
00:47:37.54\00:47:39.64
I've been told
this over and over again
00:47:39.67\00:47:41.62
by people who ought to know.
00:47:41.65\00:47:45.54
That in our meetings
we've had the largest attendance
00:47:45.57\00:47:49.02
of secular people
in religious meetings
00:47:49.05\00:47:53.21
anywhere in the world.
00:47:53.24\00:47:54.82
Some have said, "in history."
00:47:54.85\00:47:59.63
Now, people say, no,
no-- we are not talking about
00:47:59.66\00:48:03.50
the choir, we are talking about
00:48:03.53\00:48:05.13
the people who
don't like the choir.
00:48:05.16\00:48:07.89
Secular people,
attending religious meetings,
00:48:07.92\00:48:10.77
the largest numbers
anywhere on the planet.
00:48:10.80\00:48:14.56
You've had secular
people come to your meetings.
00:48:14.59\00:48:17.54
In our meetings usually
00:48:17.57\00:48:18.94
90% of our people
are secular people.
00:48:18.97\00:48:20.93
Well, some of them have even
come to disrupt the meetings.
00:48:20.96\00:48:24.17
Oh, we've that
happened on occasions, yes.
00:48:24.20\00:48:27.01
And some of them have turned--
00:48:27.04\00:48:28.42
But generally
speaking the people
00:48:28.45\00:48:30.41
who came to disrupt the
meetings were not secular,
00:48:30.44\00:48:32.54
they were religious people.
00:48:32.57\00:48:35.71
I know you had the KGB
00:48:35.74\00:48:37.11
come to one of
your meetings once.
00:48:37.14\00:48:38.51
Oh, the KGB came to our meetings
00:48:38.54\00:48:40.41
and because the
crowds were so great.
00:48:40.44\00:48:42.17
They acted as our
deacons and our ushers.
00:48:42.21\00:48:45.38
They didn't come to
disrupt, they came to help us.
00:48:45.41\00:48:48.35
They are religious people from
one great religious organization
00:48:48.38\00:48:51.79
came and had fire bombs thrown
on the stage as I was preaching.
00:48:51.82\00:48:58.43
Generally
speaking secular people
00:48:58.47\00:49:00.36
have treated me far
better than religious people.
00:49:00.39\00:49:04.81
I want to give
you a moment here.
00:49:04.84\00:49:06.21
We only have a few more
minutes in our conversation.
00:49:06.24\00:49:09.21
And I want to give
you a moment now to take
00:49:09.24\00:49:12.07
what we've been
talking about and to talk
00:49:12.10\00:49:14.55
in a very personal way to maybe
a young man or a young woman
00:49:14.58\00:49:20.13
who want to be a
minister of the gospel.
00:49:20.16\00:49:24.73
What would your advice be?
00:49:24.76\00:49:27.15
My advice to such a
person, Dave, would be this.
00:49:27.18\00:49:33.71
Believe in scripture,
00:49:33.74\00:49:35.62
believe in the
power of scripture,
00:49:35.65\00:49:37.72
don't be a traditionalist.
00:49:37.75\00:49:41.03
In Australia they
say, there are three sexes,
00:49:41.06\00:49:43.25
I dare to utter them on
this television program,
00:49:43.28\00:49:46.28
men, women and clergymen.
00:49:46.31\00:49:49.45
Don't be a clergymen, that means
00:49:49.48\00:49:52.64
be a real person
and follow scripture,
00:49:52.68\00:49:58.12
break out of the mold,
don't just be religious,
00:49:58.15\00:50:04.63
but be first and
foremost a follower of Christ.
00:50:04.66\00:50:08.90
And listen to the words of Paul.
00:50:08.93\00:50:11.79
"And in the church God has
appointed first of all apostles,
00:50:11.82\00:50:17.11
second prophets, third teachers,
then workers of miracles,
00:50:17.14\00:50:22.00
also those
having gifts of healing,
00:50:22.03\00:50:25.11
those able to help others,
00:50:25.14\00:50:27.05
those with the
gifts of administration."
00:50:27.08\00:50:30.26
This is 1 Corinthians 12.
00:50:30.29\00:50:32.67
The Bible says, Paul says,
00:50:32.70\00:50:35.30
seek the chief
gifts and the first gift
00:50:35.33\00:50:39.80
there is the gift
of being an apostle.
00:50:39.83\00:50:44.86
Apostolos, a person who
was sent into the world.
00:50:44.89\00:50:49.19
One translation
says, a missionary,
00:50:49.22\00:50:51.76
a person with a mission.
00:50:51.79\00:50:54.47
A prophet, a person who
expounds the divine word
00:50:54.50\00:50:59.78
with the authority
of the Spirit of God.
00:50:59.81\00:51:01.60
Don't be a person who just
wants to preach to the choir.
00:51:01.63\00:51:07.86
But seek the greatest
gift of all and that is to go
00:51:07.89\00:51:12.92
with a mission into the
world to proclaim Christ.
00:51:12.96\00:51:16.11
Is it difficult? Yes. Is
it dangerous? Some times.
00:51:16.14\00:51:20.03
Is it expensive?
Yes, indeed it is.
00:51:20.06\00:51:23.19
But it is the will of God.
00:51:23.22\00:51:25.18
I appeal to young
pastors to breakout
00:51:25.22\00:51:28.86
of the ecclesiastical
mold of being a clergymen
00:51:28.89\00:51:33.18
and to become
soldiers of Christ.
00:51:33.21\00:51:35.91
Soldiers of Christ,
arise, and put your armor on,
00:51:35.94\00:51:39.77
said the Wesley.
00:51:39.81\00:51:41.48
People want the
truth, don't they?
00:51:41.51\00:51:45.67
Dave, some
people want the truth.
00:51:45.70\00:51:47.27
The truth is
never easy to handle.
00:51:47.30\00:51:49.33
Some people do
not want the truth.
00:51:49.36\00:51:52.31
But those who
followed Christ want the truth.
00:51:52.34\00:51:54.84
Jesus said, "you
will know the truth
00:51:54.87\00:51:57.54
and the truth
will make you free."
00:51:57.57\00:52:00.95
You talked about churches,
00:52:00.98\00:52:02.35
and you talked
about some of the churches
00:52:02.38\00:52:03.98
you saw on university campus,
that were barely attended.
00:52:04.01\00:52:11.41
A campus of 50,000 students
00:52:11.44\00:52:14.09
and you've got a
couple of churches
00:52:14.12\00:52:17.23
that between
them may be you have
00:52:17.26\00:52:18.63
a 100 to 200 people
attending on any given Sunday.
00:52:18.66\00:52:22.03
On a good Sunday.
00:52:22.06\00:52:25.08
And yet there are churches
that are filled to overflowing.
00:52:25.11\00:52:31.33
And so many of those have
discovered that the people come,
00:52:31.36\00:52:35.88
because they want hear
the truth of the gospel.
00:52:35.91\00:52:38.88
They want as you
have indicated earlier,
00:52:38.91\00:52:41.71
they want
scripture preached. Yes.
00:52:41.74\00:52:44.57
They don't want you to tell them
00:52:44.60\00:52:47.74
psychologically how
to live their lives.
00:52:47.77\00:52:50.18
People are sick of that.
00:52:50.21\00:52:51.58
They want to hear God's
word and they are astounded
00:52:51.61\00:52:55.66
at the relevance of
God's word to their life.
00:52:55.69\00:52:59.31
Yes. And so they respond.
00:52:59.35\00:53:03.60
A church will only
fulfill its mission,
00:53:03.64\00:53:06.31
if it is true to scripture.
00:53:06.34\00:53:09.28
And if a preacher is
true to the blood of Christ
00:53:09.31\00:53:11.98
and preacher is the
blood of Christ and the gospel.
00:53:12.01\00:53:16.53
A cult, Dave,
always talks about itself.
00:53:16.56\00:53:21.47
A cult talks about
itself and its programs.
00:53:21.50\00:53:25.66
The true church
talks about Christ.
00:53:25.69\00:53:30.18
And nobody appeals to
the human heart like Christ.
00:53:30.21\00:53:33.70
Christ appeals to my
heart, because He fulfils
00:53:33.73\00:53:37.33
the need of my heart.
00:53:37.36\00:53:41.37
And so there are
churches and there are pastors
00:53:41.40\00:53:44.20
and there are ministers
who understand the gospel.
00:53:44.23\00:53:47.84
And they preach
the gospel of Christ
00:53:47.87\00:53:49.64
and they preach the word of God,
00:53:49.67\00:53:51.82
because the
power is in the word.
00:53:51.85\00:53:54.84
It is written.
00:53:54.87\00:53:56.94
"Man shall not
live by bread alone,
00:53:56.97\00:53:59.26
but by every word that proceeds
out of the mouth of God."
00:53:59.29\00:54:04.02
Lest people misunderstand,
00:54:04.05\00:54:06.25
what we are
saying about the church.
00:54:06.28\00:54:08.91
Because we have
been talking about
00:54:08.94\00:54:10.31
how important it
is for the church
00:54:10.34\00:54:11.78
to get outside of its walls.
00:54:11.81\00:54:13.27
Of course. And
to bring the gospel
00:54:13.30\00:54:15.79
to an unbelieving world.
00:54:15.82\00:54:17.19
We believe in the church.
00:54:17.22\00:54:19.24
And the church needs
to bring this message
00:54:19.28\00:54:22.34
in a way that's
interesting to the world.
00:54:22.37\00:54:25.45
Yes. And yet the church itself
00:54:25.48\00:54:26.98
internally has a
role as well, does it not?
00:54:27.01\00:54:31.01
To its own members.
00:54:31.04\00:54:32.41
Oh, yes, indeed.
00:54:32.44\00:54:34.80
The church is to
revived encouragement,
00:54:34.83\00:54:39.30
and hope, and nurture,
00:54:39.34\00:54:41.56
and sustenance to
the church members.
00:54:41.60\00:54:45.30
It must also be remembered
that no church would die faster
00:54:45.33\00:54:48.92
than the church that
becomes self-centered
00:54:48.95\00:54:53.47
and only thinks of itself.
00:54:53.50\00:54:56.18
And no pastor will
have a less fulfilling role
00:54:56.21\00:54:58.61
in saving the
church than a pastor
00:54:58.64\00:55:02.20
who concerns himself only
with the welfare of the church.
00:55:02.23\00:55:07.00
Those strong
theology said many years ago,
00:55:07.03\00:55:10.57
those grow most
who loose themselves
00:55:10.60\00:55:14.66
and they work for others.
00:55:14.69\00:55:18.11
And when a
church is introverted,
00:55:18.14\00:55:20.66
it becomes a cranky
church, a dying church.
00:55:20.70\00:55:26.01
But a church that
reaches out to the world
00:55:26.04\00:55:29.08
with the
unsearchable riches of Christ
00:55:29.11\00:55:32.10
and is aggressively evangelistic
in proclaiming Christ,
00:55:32.13\00:55:36.60
the way the truth in the life,
00:55:36.63\00:55:38.37
that church will be a
blessing to the church members
00:55:38.40\00:55:41.46
and a blessing to the world.
00:55:41.50\00:55:44.08
We are almost done
with our conversation.
00:55:44.11\00:55:46.77
There is a saying, that the
role of the church is to comfort
00:55:46.80\00:55:49.23
the afflicted and to
afflict the comfortable.
00:55:49.26\00:55:54.66
Do you see that as a
pastor of your church?
00:55:54.69\00:56:00.47
I'm no longer the
pastor of this church.
00:56:00.50\00:56:02.32
We have a very fine
young pastor, James Venegas.
00:56:02.35\00:56:05.00
And he is an outstanding
pastor, he is a man of God.
00:56:05.04\00:56:11.08
But my role now,
Dave, by the grace of God
00:56:11.11\00:56:13.83
is to do with that
which God has told me to do.
00:56:13.87\00:56:17.69
As God gives me grace
and as God gives me strength.
00:56:17.72\00:56:21.53
And that is to take
the gospel to a world
00:56:21.56\00:56:25.74
that is going down to hell.
00:56:25.77\00:56:29.13
That is facing the
judgment and that needs
00:56:29.16\00:56:32.51
more than anything
else, the relevant preaching
00:56:32.54\00:56:36.63
of the gospel of
Christ, which is the power
00:56:36.66\00:56:40.55
of God unto salvation.
00:56:40.58\00:56:42.86
And by the grace of God,
00:56:42.89\00:56:44.27
I so dedicate
myself today to this work.
00:56:44.30\00:56:47.83
John, thank you so much.
00:56:47.86\00:56:49.94
You've been
listening to the Carter Report,
00:56:49.97\00:56:52.03
with Pastor John
Carter, I'm Dave Deno.
00:56:52.06\00:56:54.84