From Arcadia, California,
The Carter Report presents
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"The Living
Word" around the world.
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Hello friend, my
name is John Carter
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and I am going to give
you right now the opportunity
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to be part of
something exciting and amazing.
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My guest today is
from Reasons to Believe.
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He is the
Executive Vice President
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of that remarkable organization.
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His name is Dr. Rana.
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Today we are going to ask
and try to answer the question,
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are scientists about to
create life in the laboratory.
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And if this happens is
there no longer a reason
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for the existence
of God? Stay with us.
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Hello friend, I am John Carter.
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I am here today to tell
you the most amazing news.
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I want to thank you
firstly in Jesus name
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for your magnificent support.
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We are on our
way to Port Moresby,
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the capital of Papua New Guinea.
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We are going to see
the amazing power of God.
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We are going there to
preach the everlasting Gospel.
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I will be preaching
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every night outdoors
in the national stadium.
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The locals tell us we will have
over 100,000 people a night,
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some say a 150,000 people.
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A few have said, maybe 200,000
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but I want you to know
this we go in the name of Christ
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to preach the
gospel and to save souls.
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And I am saying today, I
can't do this without your help.
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I have got to raise right now
$500,000 for this great campaign
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that is going to shake
an entire nation for God.
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Please be my partner.
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Write to me, John
Carter Post office box 1900,
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Thousand Oaks, CA 91358.
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In Australia, my aussie friends,
please write to Terrigal,
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the address is now
appearing on the screen.
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Please stand with me in
this tremendous outreach
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to the people of
Papua New Guinea.
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We used to talk
about mission impossible.
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All of a sudden it has
become mission possible.
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This is an opportunity to reach
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an entire nation for
the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Please write to me today
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and I want to say to
you from my heart to yours
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thank you in Jesus name.
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Welcome, my friend.
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We are going to
call this program today
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Are Scientists Playing God?
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An amazing concept.
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We are going to
talk about it today
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with our special guest Dr
Rana from Reasons to Believe,
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a great organization
here in Southern California
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that gives people
reasons to believe.
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We are just delighted, Dr. Rana,
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to have you with us at
the Carter Report today
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and we want to say, thank
you so much for joining us.
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Well, thank you
Pastor Carter, for having me.
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It's a pleasure
to be here with you.
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We look upon you as
an old friend. Thank you.
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Along with Dr. Hugh Ross
who is a great astronomer.
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Now astronomy of course,
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and as I said he's
a great astronomer.
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It talks about the big things,
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the vast things
out there in space.
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You talk about the
little things. Yeah.
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What is Biochemistry?
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Well, it's simply put.
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It's the study
of life's chemistry.
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It's the study of
the chemical systems
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that make up living organisms.
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So chemistry is
the study of matter,
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how is it structured, how
does it interact with itself.
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And so biochemistry
interested in what is the matter
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that makes up life
and how does it interact
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and then how is that been
explained biological process.
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So you are
dealing with molecules,
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DNA and proteins
and sugars and fats.
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These are part of the molecular
constituents that make up life.
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I have been reading
through your new book,
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"Creating Life in the Lab"
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and we are going to talk
about that today a little bit.
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You know, because
it does appear to me
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that many
scientists are now on the place
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where they are actually
trying to create life in the lab
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and they are playing God.
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You got a PhD in these things.
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Where did you get it and
when did you get it? Sure.
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Well, I did my PhD in
Chemistry with an emphasis
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in Biochemistry
at Ohio University
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in Athens, Ohio, that was 1990.
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And then after that I
did a couple of extra bits
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of training in Biochemistry
at the University of Virginia,
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University of Georgia where I
had post doctoral fellowships.
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And then from there I
went into a private industry
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for a number of years.
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And then from there I
joined Reasons to Believe
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about 13 years ago now.
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We normally don't think of
science bringing people to God.
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People say that science
drives people away from God,
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but I understand that
science has played a part
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in bringing you to Christ. Yeah.
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Can you tell me
about it? Sure thing.
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It played really I
think a central role
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in my
conversion to Christianity.
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I didn't grow up in a home
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with any kind of
Christian influences whatsoever.
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Oh, you didn't? No.
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My father was from India.
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He was a Muslim and
came to the United States
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via Canada in the 1950s.
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He met my mom who
had a Catholic background
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and when they married
they agreed to disagree
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when it came to religion.
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They were wise,
weren't they? They were.
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Well, my mom was in fact
a non-practicing Catholic
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and my dad was the more
religious of my two parents,
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but he never or my
mom never really pressed
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their religious believes on us.
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They kind of left it up
for-- to my brother and I,
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to figure things out on our own.
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My father was a
nuclear physicists,
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my mom was a
science and math teacher.
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Now what did he do?
What exactly did he do?
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Well, when I was born he
was a university professor
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but he prior to that
worked in an industry
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as a nuclear
physicists in the 1950s so.
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And he was a
Muslim at this time.
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He was. Yes. A
practicing Muslim. Yes.
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Yes, he was. Yes, he was.
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But he again didn't feel
like he was appropriate for him
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to press his beliefs
on either me or my brother
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and so we kind
of grew up in a home
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where there was you
know, good ethical upbringing,
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but not really any kind
of religious instruction.
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But my father being a scientist,
my mom being a science teacher,
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science was everywhere
in our household so to speak
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as we were growing up.
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So, but to answer my question,
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how did you come to
know God with science
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because I understand that
science had a definite part
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in leading you to a knowledge
of the Scriptures and to God.
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Sure thing, well, by
the time I went to college
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I pretty much had no
real commitment one way
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or the other to
whether or not God existed.
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I was an agnostic and
in fact as an undergraduate
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I readily embraced
the evolutionary paradigm.
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The professors I
admired, said life's origin,
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life's history is explicable
through evolutionary processes.
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I accepted that teaching,
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but then I went
to graduate school
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to get a PhD in Biochemistry.
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The idea of God
was the furthest thing
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from my mind at that point.
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And as I began to
really study in depth
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and in detail
bio-chemical systems
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I became convinced that
these are incredible systems
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unlike anything that I really
could have ever appreciated
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prior to my in-depth study.
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These are
incredibly complex systems,
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they are incredibly elegant,
incredibly sophisticated.
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There was a cleverness
to how these systems work.
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And to me that
became a curiosity,
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how do scientists
really explain these things.
00:08:35.41\00:08:38.35
I wasn't looking
for evolution did it.
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I wanted to know
the detail step by step
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how these
systems come into being
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and as I examined the
scientific explanations
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or the attempts to explain
these systems scientifically,
00:08:48.98\00:08:52.22
I didn't think those
explanations were sufficient.
00:08:52.25\00:08:55.54
I didn't think chemistry
and physics could generate
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on its own the
complexity of life
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and given their
elegance and sophistication
00:09:01.21\00:09:03.51
I thought there has to be a
mind that's behind all of this.
00:09:03.54\00:09:08.07
And of course once you
come to the recognition
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that there's a mind that leads
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to even more
important questions.
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Who or what is that that mind?
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Do I relate to
that, that creator?
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And that sent me on a
journey of about six months
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of beginning to
wrestle through these questions
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and through a fairly
complex series of events.
00:09:24.77\00:09:27.46
I wound up being challenged
to read the Bible to see
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if it was true and as I read
through the gospel of Matthew
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and specifically
the Sermon on the Mount
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I became convinced
that Jesus had to be
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who Christians claim Him to be.
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So I would argue it was
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a supernatural
religious experience
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where God is revealed to me
through the pages of Scripture.
00:09:46.43\00:09:49.03
But my coming to the recognition
there had to be a creator.
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I believe too was
God revealing Himself
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to me through
the record of nature.
00:09:55.36\00:09:57.82
Now you know about
C.S. Lewis, don't you? Yes.
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Jack Lewis as they call him.
00:10:00.34\00:10:03.19
He had a conversion in
a somewhat similar way.
00:10:03.22\00:10:07.11
He was at Oxford University,
had a head full of brains
00:10:07.14\00:10:10.80
and as he
thought things through,
00:10:10.83\00:10:13.59
through the processes of
logic he came to the conclusion,
00:10:13.62\00:10:20.44
man cannot be alone
00:10:20.47\00:10:21.84
there must be
someone bigger than man.
00:10:21.87\00:10:24.80
And Lewis became of course,
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one of the
greatest Christian writers
00:10:26.32\00:10:28.90
and most people,
at least intellectuals
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who read the
writings of C.S. Lewis.
00:10:31.62\00:10:34.94
So you are a believer in
God and a believer in Christ?
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I am, yes. And a
believer in Scripture.
00:10:37.98\00:10:40.38
Yes, very much so.
00:10:40.41\00:10:42.18
But the arguments for
evolution can be somewhat
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overwhelming for a
young person, don't you think?
00:10:45.58\00:10:48.78
They can and part
of the challenge too
00:10:48.81\00:10:51.22
is the people who are
making those arguments
00:10:51.25\00:10:53.93
are people in authority. Yes.
00:10:53.96\00:10:55.92
And there are
people too that I think
00:10:55.95\00:10:57.57
students going through a
science program admire. Yes.
00:10:57.60\00:11:02.10
They typically are good people
who are people of integrity.
00:11:02.13\00:11:05.57
They just have a
particular world view.
00:11:05.60\00:11:07.75
And not all of them are
unbelievers. Not necessarily.
00:11:07.78\00:11:10.62
No, because there are
plenty of evolutionists
00:11:10.65\00:11:13.01
who are theistic evolutionists
00:11:13.04\00:11:15.10
who believe that God
used the evolutionary process
00:11:15.13\00:11:18.92
to create life as
we understand it. Yes.
00:11:18.95\00:11:21.07
Now I wouldn't classify myself
as a theistic evolutionist.
00:11:21.10\00:11:23.77
No. No.
00:11:23.80\00:11:25.17
I am a creationist,
but you are right, there.
00:11:25.20\00:11:28.79
It's a very overwhelming
environment for students
00:11:28.82\00:11:32.23
who don't have an
adequate background in science.
00:11:32.26\00:11:35.08
And then you have
people like Professor Dawkins.
00:11:35.11\00:11:38.98
Now there's no doubt
about it he is a brilliant man,
00:11:39.01\00:11:43.87
but he speaks
sort of ex-cathedra.
00:11:43.90\00:11:47.85
And what he says that's it
00:11:47.88\00:11:49.86
and if you don't agree with him
you are a complete fool. Yes.
00:11:49.89\00:11:54.28
And so the people who
follow him are almost like,
00:11:54.31\00:11:58.54
many of them at least are
00:11:58.57\00:11:59.99
like people who follow
a religious guru. Yeah.
00:12:00.02\00:12:04.61
So it's a cult, a religious cult
00:12:04.64\00:12:09.12
and they are afraid
to think for themselves
00:12:09.15\00:12:11.36
or to consider
some of the evidence
00:12:11.39\00:12:13.45
that you are going
to give to me today.
00:12:13.48\00:12:16.53
Tell me this one,
you are a scientist
00:12:16.56\00:12:19.08
with a PhD in these things,
00:12:19.11\00:12:21.55
in these things I am a
layman person, I am a pastor.
00:12:21.58\00:12:24.99
I have often wondered why
is it that the two scientists
00:12:25.02\00:12:28.23
can look at the same evidence
00:12:28.26\00:12:30.23
and reach completely
different conclusions?
00:12:30.26\00:12:33.60
You know that's a great question
00:12:33.63\00:12:36.01
and it's a question I
have given a lot of thought too
00:12:36.04\00:12:38.81
and I think at
the end of the day
00:12:38.84\00:12:40.52
it boils down to
not the evidence itself,
00:12:40.55\00:12:43.80
but really
philosophical influences
00:12:43.83\00:12:47.53
and maybe even a spiritual
condition if you will. Yes.
00:12:47.56\00:12:51.77
I mean, Richard
Dawkins for example,
00:12:51.80\00:12:53.47
in his introduction to the book
"The Blind Watchmaker" says,
00:12:53.50\00:12:57.15
Biology is the study
of complicated things
00:12:57.18\00:12:59.98
that give the appearance
00:13:00.01\00:13:01.38
of having been
designed for a purpose. Yes.
00:13:01.41\00:13:03.58
And you know, and so
here Dawkins is admitting
00:13:03.61\00:13:06.20
that when you look
at biochemical systems
00:13:06.23\00:13:08.72
the first reaction is
that they are designed. Yes.
00:13:08.75\00:13:12.43
But yet he argues
that evolution did it
00:13:12.46\00:13:14.97
as opposed to taking it
to the logical conclusion
00:13:15.00\00:13:17.98
that maybe indeed there
was a mind behind it at all.
00:13:18.01\00:13:20.66
So I think it's a
philosophical commitment
00:13:20.69\00:13:23.50
to a world view or unwillingness
to be open to maybe
00:13:23.53\00:13:28.62
just maybe that there is a God
00:13:28.65\00:13:30.14
who is
responsible for everything.
00:13:30.17\00:13:34.29
I have discovered after 50 years
00:13:34.32\00:13:37.56
of preaching the truths of
the Bible and being a pastor
00:13:37.59\00:13:43.41
everybody has
got some prejudice.
00:13:43.44\00:13:46.46
All religious people too,
this thing that's called bias.
00:13:46.49\00:13:51.90
And often we think because
of our culture and our parents
00:13:51.93\00:13:56.82
and our upbringing and
our fears and everything else.
00:13:56.85\00:14:02.42
I have a feeling
that many, many people
00:14:02.45\00:14:05.79
choose to believe
that there's no God
00:14:05.82\00:14:08.11
not because it's necessarily,
intellectually honest
00:14:08.14\00:14:12.89
but because
it's more convenient.
00:14:12.92\00:14:16.54
It suits their lifestyle.
00:14:16.57\00:14:18.22
Now this may not be
true with everybody,
00:14:18.25\00:14:20.40
but I think it's true
with some, wouldn't you say?
00:14:20.43\00:14:22.95
Yeah, I think there's a lot
to be said to that statement
00:14:22.98\00:14:26.01
and you know again
we are talking about
00:14:26.04\00:14:27.87
students going
through university
00:14:27.90\00:14:29.54
where it's just
not considered to be
00:14:29.57\00:14:32.18
intellectually
sophisticated to believe in God.
00:14:32.21\00:14:35.40
And so students want to be
00:14:35.43\00:14:37.14
viewed as being
intellectually sophisticated.
00:14:37.17\00:14:39.96
They wanted to
be viewed as being
00:14:39.99\00:14:41.36
part of the intelligentsia
00:14:41.39\00:14:43.52
and so they reject belief in
God for peer pressure reasons.
00:14:43.55\00:14:47.96
That good man,
Dr. Dawkins attacks
00:14:47.99\00:14:51.35
Christianity and religion
in general very strongly.
00:14:51.38\00:14:53.96
He says, "Look, what
religious people have done.
00:14:53.99\00:14:56.81
Look at the wars over religion.
00:14:56.84\00:14:59.11
Look at the terrible
crimes in the name of God."
00:14:59.14\00:15:02.23
Has he ever heard of communism?
00:15:02.26\00:15:05.93
Has he ever been to Russia?
00:15:05.96\00:15:08.30
In fact, I have
been there 42 times,
00:15:08.33\00:15:10.55
just come back
from Russia and Ukraine.
00:15:10.58\00:15:12.99
I have been there 42 times.
00:15:13.02\00:15:15.55
I know the story of communism
00:15:15.58\00:15:18.14
during that time of 70 years
00:15:18.17\00:15:20.70
when the Marxist
ruled Russia and Ukraine.
00:15:20.73\00:15:25.05
Historians tell us now at
least fifty million people
00:15:25.08\00:15:29.07
were murdered by the atheists.
00:15:29.10\00:15:32.54
So the atheists were
watching the telecast
00:15:32.57\00:15:36.08
ought to think about this one
00:15:36.11\00:15:38.03
because the atheists who put
to death in their own lifetime
00:15:38.06\00:15:42.42
basically millions and
millions and millions of people.
00:15:42.45\00:15:46.89
So it's not just
the religious people
00:15:46.92\00:15:48.63
but of course, I would beg
to disagree with Dr. Dawkins
00:15:48.66\00:15:52.96
when he says he's not religious.
00:15:52.99\00:15:54.99
He's the high
priest of a great religion.
00:15:55.02\00:15:57.06
He maybe a good man,
00:15:57.09\00:15:58.46
but he's a high
priest of a great religion
00:15:58.49\00:16:00.76
and he thinks like a religious
person does. He sure does.
00:16:00.79\00:16:04.81
Who doesn't want to
consider all of the evidence?
00:16:04.84\00:16:07.93
Now I have been reading through
00:16:07.96\00:16:11.25
this great book
"Creating Life in the Lab."
00:16:11.28\00:16:14.17
This is an amazing book
00:16:14.20\00:16:16.07
and I recommend
it to you my friend.
00:16:16.10\00:16:18.20
Just read this book.
00:16:18.23\00:16:19.60
This has got
some amazing concepts.
00:16:19.63\00:16:22.90
It's called
"CreatingLife in the Lab."
00:16:22.93\00:16:26.63
Don't read it after
you had a heavy lunch
00:16:26.66\00:16:31.03
because it's got some
profound thoughts in it.
00:16:31.06\00:16:35.87
Doctor, is the creation
of synthetic life feasible?
00:16:35.90\00:16:43.82
Is it possible,
is it likely? Yes.
00:16:43.85\00:16:47.49
We are very close
to be able to create
00:16:47.52\00:16:49.88
artificial synthetic
life forms in the laboratory.
00:16:49.91\00:16:53.06
Amazing. Yeah.
00:16:53.09\00:16:54.46
I mean, 10 years ago if you
had asked me is this possible,
00:16:54.49\00:16:56.64
I would have said
there's absolutely no way,
00:16:56.67\00:16:58.74
but the advances
that have happened
00:16:58.77\00:17:00.67
in terms of just understanding
how biochemical systems work,
00:17:00.70\00:17:04.58
in terms of being able
to manipulate those systems
00:17:04.61\00:17:07.78
and then in advances
in genetic engineering
00:17:07.81\00:17:10.91
have led us to the point where
we do have the capabilities of
00:17:10.94\00:17:14.48
creating artificial
life forms in the laboratory.
00:17:14.51\00:17:17.87
Now we are talking about cell,
single cells like bacteria.
00:17:17.90\00:17:21.37
But still it's a life
form. It's a life form, exactly.
00:17:21.40\00:17:24.30
And now friend, are
you listening to this
00:17:24.33\00:17:25.78
because you are
going to hear this
00:17:25.81\00:17:28.56
on this program
for the first time.
00:17:28.59\00:17:30.39
I just want you
to listen to this
00:17:30.42\00:17:31.84
because if I have been doing
00:17:31.87\00:17:34.36
this television
program 10 years ago,
00:17:34.39\00:17:36.09
I would have said,
this will never happen.
00:17:36.12\00:17:39.52
And I would
have agreed with you.
00:17:39.55\00:17:41.25
Well, but you would have
had a good reason to believe.
00:17:41.28\00:17:43.99
I just would have you know,
00:17:44.03\00:17:45.47
I would be going
by my gut feeling.
00:17:45.50\00:17:47.73
So scientists are on the brink
of creating synthetic life,
00:17:47.76\00:17:54.79
I heard you say that.
00:17:54.82\00:17:57.00
Tell us about the work of
James Watson, Francis Crick
00:17:57.03\00:18:00.60
and more recently Craig
Venter and genetic engineering.
00:18:00.63\00:18:06.22
Now friend, I
want you to hear this
00:18:06.25\00:18:08.40
particularly university students
00:18:08.43\00:18:10.91
tune in right
now. Listen to this.
00:18:10.94\00:18:13.23
Well, you know in 1953
Francis Crick and Jim Watson
00:18:13.26\00:18:20.08
published a paper in Nature,
that is a famous paper now
00:18:20.11\00:18:24.75
where they present the
structure of the DNA molecule.
00:18:24.78\00:18:28.17
And that
structure, this double helix
00:18:28.20\00:18:30.53
that everybody
is familiar with--
00:18:30.56\00:18:31.93
50 years ago. Yeah.
00:18:31.96\00:18:33.33
They are about
1953 was the year.
00:18:33.36\00:18:35.22
Well, its more than 50 years.
00:18:35.25\00:18:36.62
Yeah, 60. Almost 60.
00:18:36.65\00:18:38.08
I mean, where
have the years gone?
00:18:38.11\00:18:40.07
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:40.10\00:18:41.47
But, and that structure
provided critical insight
00:18:41.50\00:18:45.44
in terms of how DNA was
able to replicate itself,
00:18:45.47\00:18:49.10
how the cell could just
store genetic information
00:18:49.13\00:18:52.37
and led to what's call the
molecular biology revolution
00:18:52.40\00:18:55.80
where through that
understanding we developed
00:18:55.83\00:18:58.97
again the capability to
manipulate and understand
00:18:59.00\00:19:02.89
how life works
at its basic level.
00:19:02.92\00:19:05.46
This is astounding.
00:19:05.49\00:19:06.86
And then this lead
to genetic engineering
00:19:06.89\00:19:09.52
which was first
successful in the 1970s
00:19:09.55\00:19:13.10
where scientist could manipulate
small pieces of that molecule
00:19:13.13\00:19:16.51
and in doing so
introduce for example the gene
00:19:16.54\00:19:20.02
that encodes for the
protein insulin into bacteria,
00:19:20.05\00:19:23.43
so that you now have
00:19:23.46\00:19:24.91
bacteria making the
human insulin protein.
00:19:24.94\00:19:28.00
And then that goes fast forward
to about two years ago now
00:19:28.03\00:19:34.03
when Craig Venter
and his group announced
00:19:34.06\00:19:37.06
the creation of
synthetic version of a bacterium
00:19:37.09\00:19:40.58
where they
literally went in to a lab
00:19:40.61\00:19:42.47
with four bottles of a chemicals
00:19:42.50\00:19:44.84
and made a massive piece of DNA
00:19:44.87\00:19:47.19
that was about a
million genetic letters in size.
00:19:47.22\00:19:51.85
They made this
thing. In the lab.
00:19:51.88\00:19:54.12
But they made it out of
pre-existing matter of course.
00:19:54.15\00:19:56.40
Oh, of course. Yes.
00:19:56.43\00:19:57.80
So they start with
the same building blocks
00:19:57.83\00:19:59.49
that the cell uses to make DNA,
00:19:59.52\00:20:01.71
but it was a total laboratory
creation of DNA off synthetic--
00:20:01.74\00:20:07.61
This is astounding.
00:20:07.64\00:20:09.23
Which you could
think of its being
00:20:09.26\00:20:10.63
like the software of the cell
00:20:10.66\00:20:12.47
and they took that
software that they made
00:20:12.50\00:20:15.01
and they transplanted
it into another bacterium
00:20:15.04\00:20:18.59
and that DNA and some
clever biochemical tricks
00:20:18.62\00:20:22.45
allow them to
dissolve that host cells DNA
00:20:22.48\00:20:26.71
and the synthetic DNA took
over the operation of the cell.
00:20:26.74\00:20:29.88
They rebooted
the cell and, voila,
00:20:29.91\00:20:32.81
in a few generations
of cell division they had
00:20:32.84\00:20:35.74
a completely different species
of bacteria that was synthetic.
00:20:35.77\00:20:39.38
Now here's the
question. Was that DNA alive?
00:20:39.41\00:20:42.86
No, the DNA is not alive.
00:20:42.89\00:20:44.37
So it's not
alive. It's not alive.
00:20:44.40\00:20:45.77
So they didn't create life then.
00:20:45.80\00:20:47.52
No, but they took the molecules
00:20:47.55\00:20:49.30
and they manipulated them
all together in such a way
00:20:49.33\00:20:52.25
that you have now an entity that
functions as a living organism.
00:20:52.28\00:20:58.58
But that's when its put into
00:20:58.61\00:20:59.98
another living
organism, isn't it?
00:21:00.01\00:21:01.38
Yes. Exactly.
00:21:01.41\00:21:02.78
But the thing is life is kind of
a tricky concept to define. Yes.
00:21:02.81\00:21:07.12
You know and we are
talking about physical life now
00:21:07.15\00:21:09.35
not about you know the spiritual
makeup of the human being,
00:21:09.38\00:21:13.09
but in the sense
life really consists of
00:21:13.12\00:21:16.30
a very complex
assemblage of molecules
00:21:16.33\00:21:20.05
that when they are there
00:21:20.08\00:21:21.45
in the right types
in the right numbers
00:21:21.48\00:21:23.92
begin to
function like a life form.
00:21:23.95\00:21:26.91
So there's not
like a vital force
00:21:26.94\00:21:30.07
that you need for
something to be alive.
00:21:30.10\00:21:32.15
It's just the right molecules
present in the right amounts
00:21:32.18\00:21:36.14
and that gives
you a living entity.
00:21:36.17\00:21:38.30
Now this stuff didn't put
itself together, did it? No.
00:21:38.33\00:21:41.04
It's in a
laboratory. It sure didn't.
00:21:41.07\00:21:43.23
I mean, when you look at
what Craig Venter's team did,
00:21:43.26\00:21:46.66
they worked on this
project for 15 years
00:21:46.69\00:21:50.55
and looking at
research teams that had
00:21:50.58\00:21:53.78
anywhere from 20 to 50 people
00:21:53.81\00:21:55.75
at various times
throughout that process.
00:21:55.78\00:21:58.49
They spent about $40 million.
00:21:58.52\00:22:01.38
They are using incredibly
00:22:01.41\00:22:02.78
sophisticated
laboratory apparatus.
00:22:02.81\00:22:05.63
They are using
incredibly elaborate
00:22:05.66\00:22:07.79
strategies and protocols,
00:22:07.82\00:22:09.83
but people who are
carrying out these protocols
00:22:09.86\00:22:12.03
were some of the
world's best scientists.
00:22:12.06\00:22:14.00
In fact,
there's a Nobel laureate
00:22:14.03\00:22:15.89
who's part of their
team, Hamilton Smith.
00:22:15.92\00:22:18.52
And so-- I have
heard of this man.
00:22:18.55\00:22:19.92
Yes. Yes.
00:22:19.95\00:22:21.32
Incredible, incredible team
of the best minds in the world
00:22:21.35\00:22:25.93
working over a
vast periods of time
00:22:25.96\00:22:27.88
and spending
huge amounts of money
00:22:27.91\00:22:29.85
using incredibly
sophisticated systems,
00:22:29.88\00:22:32.75
using knowledge accumulated for
centuries to do what they did.
00:22:32.78\00:22:37.76
This is a tremendous argument
00:22:37.79\00:22:40.05
against blind forces of nature
coming together by themselves.
00:22:40.08\00:22:44.45
Oh, it sure is.
00:22:44.48\00:22:45.85
I mean, this is really evidence
00:22:45.88\00:22:47.25
that it takes intelligent
agents to make life possible.
00:22:47.28\00:22:51.42
It takes an
intelligent designer. Exactly.
00:22:51.45\00:22:54.36
It takes an intelligent--
did you hear that friend,
00:22:54.39\00:22:56.71
it takes an intelligent
designer to create life.
00:22:56.74\00:23:01.25
And not to
minimize the accomplishments
00:23:01.28\00:23:04.11
of Craig Venter. No, not at all.
00:23:04.14\00:23:05.51
But what he essentially did
is just made a synthetic version
00:23:05.54\00:23:09.14
of a life form
that already exists.
00:23:09.17\00:23:10.80
Which is amazing in itself. Yes.
00:23:10.83\00:23:13.19
Now this is of
course a stepping stone
00:23:13.22\00:23:15.06
to actually going the next step
00:23:15.09\00:23:16.99
and now creating an organism
00:23:17.02\00:23:18.93
that would be
unlike any think in nature
00:23:18.96\00:23:21.39
but nerveless-- Astounding.
00:23:21.42\00:23:23.33
Its, again the
same point would be true
00:23:23.36\00:23:27.16
when they make the
synthetic version of--
00:23:27.19\00:23:29.68
sorry, a novel
synthetic organism
00:23:29.71\00:23:31.93
and that would be
intelligent agents are required
00:23:31.96\00:23:34.67
to bring life into existence.
00:23:34.70\00:23:36.07
We are coming into
a new brave new world,
00:23:36.10\00:23:39.33
a strange new world,
a dangerous new world.
00:23:39.36\00:23:42.04
Don't you think? We sure are.
00:23:42.07\00:23:44.63
And I think this is
why it's very important
00:23:44.66\00:23:46.86
for Christians to understand
what the technology is.
00:23:46.89\00:23:50.84
Yes, absolutely.
00:23:50.87\00:23:52.24
And to be able to offer
an intelligent perspective
00:23:52.27\00:23:55.46
in form of our
biblical world view
00:23:55.49\00:23:58.18
of what is the right way
to handle this technology.
00:23:58.21\00:24:01.91
And not to make statements
00:24:01.94\00:24:04.12
that are going to
be proven in six months
00:24:04.15\00:24:06.29
to be completely erroneous.
00:24:06.32\00:24:07.84
Right. Yeah.
00:24:07.87\00:24:09.24
You know, if we see this
as being evidence for God
00:24:09.27\00:24:13.50
and the necessity of God
bringing life into existence
00:24:13.53\00:24:16.15
we can become
excited about the prospects.
00:24:16.18\00:24:19.53
You got me excited here today.
00:24:19.56\00:24:21.55
But when you
begin to realize that
00:24:21.58\00:24:23.96
this ability
could actually represent
00:24:23.99\00:24:26.49
very important technology
00:24:26.52\00:24:28.66
that could have
huge implications
00:24:28.69\00:24:30.30
in terms of biomedicine. Yes.
00:24:30.33\00:24:32.65
You know, making drugs available
00:24:32.68\00:24:34.61
that currently we
don't have access to
00:24:34.64\00:24:36.77
that could improve the
quality of people's lives.
00:24:36.80\00:24:39.27
Some people this could be
the key to producing green fuels
00:24:39.30\00:24:44.30
you know without causing
potential harm to environment.
00:24:44.33\00:24:47.30
Actually, using
bacteria to create alcohol.
00:24:47.33\00:24:51.57
Exactly. Yeah.
00:24:51.60\00:24:52.97
That could be
used as a fuel source
00:24:53.00\00:24:54.86
or even generating
hydrogen gas with bacteria
00:24:54.89\00:24:58.02
that can be used to
power-- Now when we think of--
00:24:58.05\00:25:01.65
Now, ladies and gentleman,
00:25:01.68\00:25:03.23
just listen to this because
this is amazing material.
00:25:03.26\00:25:06.06
I want you to be
part of this conversation.
00:25:06.09\00:25:09.56
We are talking about
"Creating life in the Lab".
00:25:09.59\00:25:12.99
We are talking about scientists
who seem to be playing God.
00:25:13.02\00:25:17.92
But if they are playing God,
00:25:17.95\00:25:19.41
we must
pre-suppose there is a God.
00:25:19.44\00:25:21.87
Yes, exactly. This is important.
00:25:21.90\00:25:25.30
The fact that if
they are playing God,
00:25:25.33\00:25:27.78
then it's a presupposition
that there is a God
00:25:27.81\00:25:30.61
because they couldn't be
doing this if there were no God.
00:25:30.64\00:25:34.59
Tell me this, how
amazingly complex is life?
00:25:34.62\00:25:42.05
Well, one way to think
about the complexity of life
00:25:42.08\00:25:45.34
is how many genes do you
need for a life form to exist
00:25:45.37\00:25:50.27
in its simplest form
independently in the environment
00:25:50.30\00:25:53.46
so that it can live
all on its own? Yes.
00:25:53.49\00:25:56.77
And one way again
to think about this
00:25:56.80\00:25:59.80
is the number of
genes that requires
00:25:59.83\00:26:01.59
and a gene is a
region of the DNA molecule
00:26:01.62\00:26:04.71
that contains the
information to make
00:26:04.74\00:26:06.28
another type of
molecule called the protein.
00:26:06.31\00:26:07.68
How complex is a gene?
00:26:07.71\00:26:09.08
A gene would typically be about
a thousand genetic letters.
00:26:09.11\00:26:14.59
And so that would be about it--
00:26:14.62\00:26:17.74
And so a typical genome which
would be all the genes combined
00:26:17.77\00:26:22.59
for the simplest organism
that could exist all on its own
00:26:22.62\00:26:25.83
will be about, oh, I am guessing
00:26:25.86\00:26:27.66
about 1.5
million genetic letters.
00:26:27.69\00:26:30.69
Our genome consists about
3.2 billion genetic letters.
00:26:30.72\00:26:34.76
But a simplest bacteria
that can exist independently
00:26:34.79\00:26:37.70
in its environment is about
1.5 million genetic letters
00:26:37.73\00:26:41.27
which translates
to about 1500 genes
00:26:41.30\00:26:45.26
and each gene
codes for a protein
00:26:45.29\00:26:47.39
and a protein is a molecule
that in itself is a very complex
00:26:47.42\00:26:53.70
that plays a
particular role inside the cell
00:26:53.73\00:26:57.01
and so we need based
on the best understanding
00:26:57.04\00:27:00.90
about 1500 different types of
proteins working collaboratively
00:27:00.93\00:27:05.88
to carry out all the
operations needed for a cell--
00:27:05.91\00:27:08.39
So the great Dr.
Venter with his great team
00:27:08.42\00:27:13.03
and we applaud
what they are doing.
00:27:13.06\00:27:16.14
This is science at its best.
00:27:16.17\00:27:18.88
They are putting together
all the atoms and the molecules,
00:27:18.91\00:27:22.55
is this what they are
doing from the ground up? Yes.
00:27:22.58\00:27:24.82
Well, they are kind of
taking a shortcut in that
00:27:24.85\00:27:27.17
they are
basically assembling the DNA
00:27:27.20\00:27:30.44
which again is the
set of instructions. Yes.
00:27:30.47\00:27:33.09
And then they are using that DNA
00:27:33.12\00:27:34.49
to take over the
operation of another cell
00:27:34.52\00:27:37.52
where that cell has
already done the hard work
00:27:37.55\00:27:39.40
of assembling all the
molecules together for them.
00:27:39.43\00:27:42.80
Now there are other researchers
00:27:42.83\00:27:44.62
for example, Jack Shaw Stack
who's at Harvard University
00:27:44.65\00:27:48.03
who are taking a different
approach than Dr. Venter
00:27:48.06\00:27:50.66
going in a lab and then starting
with individual molecules
00:27:50.69\00:27:53.73
and they are trying to
assemble them into life forms
00:27:53.76\00:27:56.54
that work is much further away
00:27:56.57\00:27:59.43
in terms of being successful
than Venter's approach.
00:27:59.46\00:28:03.53
So Venter's kind
of taking advantage of
00:28:03.56\00:28:06.28
what "nature or
God" has already done
00:28:06.31\00:28:10.45
to kind of
jumpstart the process.
00:28:10.48\00:28:12.89
And then he gets a
copyright on what he has done.
00:28:12.92\00:28:14.66
That's exactly-- Is that right?
00:28:14.69\00:28:16.06
Oh, yes.
00:28:16.09\00:28:17.46
I am sure he's
going to create headaches
00:28:17.49\00:28:19.47
for people that are
involved in patent law.
00:28:19.50\00:28:21.09
Yeah. I am sure.
00:28:21.12\00:28:22.49
Now we have talked about a gene,
00:28:22.52\00:28:23.89
we have talked about the DNA.
00:28:23.92\00:28:25.97
Perhaps, we
shouldn't talk about RNA,
00:28:26.00\00:28:29.34
but tell me what
about a cell itself?
00:28:29.37\00:28:34.15
A simple cell, how
complex is a simple cell?
00:28:34.18\00:28:38.66
It's almost in the
sense beyond imagination
00:28:38.69\00:28:42.70
of how complex it is.
00:28:42.73\00:28:44.81
Try to get me to imagine it.
00:28:44.84\00:28:46.26
Probably, the
best example would be
00:28:46.29\00:28:48.37
a city like Los
Angeles or Sydney
00:28:48.40\00:28:51.79
you know, where you have got--
00:28:51.82\00:28:53.73
Why would you say Sydney?
00:28:53.76\00:28:55.20
Because you are from Australia
and I just visited there.
00:28:55.23\00:28:57.85
And it's a beautiful city.
00:28:57.88\00:28:59.25
Oh, thank you. It's on my mind.
00:28:59.28\00:29:00.65
All right, let's
talk about Sydney.
00:29:00.68\00:29:02.05
But you know when you think
about the operation of a city
00:29:02.08\00:29:05.17
you have all kinds of different
00:29:05.20\00:29:07.22
activities taking
place in the city.
00:29:07.25\00:29:10.01
And we are talking
about just one cell.
00:29:10.04\00:29:12.07
Yes, exactly.
00:29:12.10\00:29:13.47
And so, and you have got
00:29:13.50\00:29:15.44
you know, there
are aspects of the city
00:29:15.47\00:29:18.43
that are involved in
producing the materials
00:29:18.46\00:29:21.47
that the city is going
to need to operate their--
00:29:21.50\00:29:22.93
Yeah, power
00:29:22.96\00:29:24.40
There's power been generated.
00:29:24.43\00:29:26.01
Getting rid of the
garbage. That's right.
00:29:26.04\00:29:27.69
There's can't do its in
terms of moving material
00:29:27.72\00:29:30.18
and people around you know.
00:29:30.21\00:29:32.05
And there is all
these different activities
00:29:32.08\00:29:33.63
that are intergrated together.
00:29:33.66\00:29:35.33
How small is the cell?
00:29:35.36\00:29:36.73
Well, a cell,
00:29:36.76\00:29:38.13
a bacterium would be
about a micron in length
00:29:38.16\00:29:44.18
and about a micron in width.
00:29:44.22\00:29:46.00
So that's about one
millionth of a meter.
00:29:46.03\00:29:48.61
Well, it's going to
take professor Venter
00:29:48.64\00:29:51.03
a while to make a
cell starting from scratch.
00:29:51.06\00:29:55.53
Oh, yes, yeah.
00:29:55.56\00:29:56.93
The prospects of doing that
00:29:56.96\00:29:58.33
are much further
away by all means.
00:29:58.36\00:30:01.92
Now in your book
I have read about
00:30:01.95\00:30:05.05
and I have read
about this before,
00:30:05.08\00:30:07.05
"Stanley Miller's Experiments"
00:30:07.08\00:30:10.24
when he tried to
recreate life on the planet.
00:30:10.27\00:30:14.33
You know with
electricity going through
00:30:14.36\00:30:16.60
different types of
chemicals. That was big news.
00:30:16.63\00:30:22.37
But what about today, how
far has it gone since then?
00:30:22.40\00:30:25.86
You don't hear
about this anymore.
00:30:25.89\00:30:27.94
Yeah, well, you know
people will say today
00:30:27.97\00:30:30.96
that the experiment
that Stanley Miller did
00:30:30.99\00:30:34.53
which maybe one of the
most famous experiments
00:30:34.56\00:30:36.66
in the history of
science is of historic interest,
00:30:36.69\00:30:40.60
but it isn't really relevant
00:30:40.63\00:30:42.75
to try to explain how
life came from non-life.
00:30:42.78\00:30:46.14
Because we know so
much more about life
00:30:46.17\00:30:48.55
and it's not as simple
as he even thought it was.
00:30:48.58\00:30:52.12
That's part of it
and part of it too is
00:30:52.15\00:30:55.02
Stanley Miller at that
time was trying to mimic
00:30:55.05\00:30:57.87
the early earth's conditions
based on what they knew
00:30:57.90\00:31:00.64
at that time
which was in the 1950s.
00:31:00.67\00:31:03.63
And so he filled
up his glass apparatus
00:31:03.66\00:31:05.74
with ammonia and
methane and hydrogen.
00:31:05.77\00:31:08.19
He was very careful to
make sure no oxygen was present.
00:31:08.22\00:31:11.36
He had boiling water that
simulated the earth's oceans
00:31:11.39\00:31:14.74
and was able to make amino acids
00:31:14.77\00:31:16.55
which were the
building blocks for proteins.
00:31:16.58\00:31:19.82
Well, we now know that
00:31:19.85\00:31:21.36
the conditions of the
early earth were probably
00:31:21.39\00:31:23.23
radically different
from what Miller thought.
00:31:23.26\00:31:25.51
So science is
moving on. Exactly.
00:31:25.54\00:31:28.32
And sometimes
scientists are brave enough--
00:31:28.35\00:31:31.41
many times they are
brave enough to say,
00:31:31.44\00:31:33.87
"Well, we were
wrong, we better move on."
00:31:33.90\00:31:37.63
And we are going
to move on right now
00:31:37.66\00:31:39.70
because we going to have a
message, ladies and gentlemen.
00:31:39.73\00:31:43.28
I am talking with Dr. Rana.
00:31:43.31\00:31:46.16
We are having a great time
here at the Carter Report today.
00:31:46.19\00:31:49.46
And after this important message
00:31:49.49\00:31:51.64
I want you to come back
00:31:51.67\00:31:53.04
because we are
going to talk about
00:31:53.07\00:31:54.76
the concept of
intelligent design.
00:31:54.79\00:31:59.54
Many courts in the
United States of America
00:31:59.57\00:32:01.86
have sort of thrown it out.
00:32:01.89\00:32:03.26
They say it's unscientific.
Join us after this break.
00:32:03.29\00:32:08.07
The Carter Report is a
self supporting ministry
00:32:10.15\00:32:13.39
with a global mission.
00:32:13.42\00:32:15.20
We believe that the
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00:32:15.23\00:32:17.28
that we can do in
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00:32:17.31\00:32:19.93
is to tell people
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00:32:19.96\00:32:23.32
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00:32:23.35\00:32:25.98
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00:32:26.01\00:32:27.77
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00:32:27.80\00:32:31.64
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00:32:31.67\00:32:35.06
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00:32:35.09\00:32:36.87
Bless your heart, friend.
00:32:36.90\00:32:38.32
Look at the signs that are
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00:32:38.35\00:32:42.18
The signs of the
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00:32:42.21\00:32:45.26
And they are saying
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00:32:45.29\00:32:48.71
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00:32:48.74\00:32:52.18
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00:32:54.25\00:32:57.85
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00:32:57.88\00:33:01.01
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00:33:01.04\00:33:05.86
Please check us out
00:33:05.89\00:33:07.93
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00:33:07.96\00:33:12.79
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00:33:12.82\00:33:17.46
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00:33:17.49\00:33:19.43
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00:33:19.46\00:33:23.09
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00:33:23.12\00:33:27.62
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00:33:30.52\00:33:33.27
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00:33:33.30\00:33:37.03
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00:33:37.06\00:33:40.60
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00:33:40.63\00:33:42.67
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00:33:42.70\00:33:44.82
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00:33:44.85\00:33:48.75
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00:33:50.18\00:33:54.97
I want to hear from you today.
00:33:55.00\00:33:58.69
Dr. Rana, we are glad to
have you with us here today
00:34:12.11\00:34:15.87
and we are very glad to
have you here with us today.
00:34:15.90\00:34:18.60
We are talking about
"Creating Life in the Lab."
00:34:18.63\00:34:22.88
Is God still necessary?
00:34:22.91\00:34:25.90
We are going to call
this program Playing God
00:34:25.93\00:34:29.37
because that's what
scientists are doing today,
00:34:29.40\00:34:31.50
but you need to get the evidence
00:34:31.53\00:34:34.44
because scientists seem
to be moving on the road
00:34:34.47\00:34:36.99
to synthesizing
life in the laboratory.
00:34:37.02\00:34:40.44
Some would tell
us that this proves
00:34:40.47\00:34:42.62
that God is no longer necessary
00:34:42.65\00:34:45.19
and we can do it
now in the laboratory.
00:34:45.22\00:34:47.96
I think what some
people are going to say
00:34:47.99\00:34:49.36
if life is
generated in the laboratory,
00:34:49.39\00:34:51.58
they are going to say, "Well,
that proves there is no God."
00:34:51.61\00:34:54.04
What would you say, doctor?
00:34:54.07\00:34:56.50
Well, that's the great irony
00:34:56.53\00:34:57.90
because the very scientist
who are making proclamations
00:34:57.93\00:35:01.82
are also the
scientists who are demonstrating
00:35:01.85\00:35:04.51
I believe that
apart from the work
00:35:04.54\00:35:07.03
of an intelligent agent
life can't come from non-life
00:35:07.06\00:35:10.30
and so to me
00:35:10.33\00:35:11.70
this is the most powerful
evidence for intelligent--
00:35:11.73\00:35:13.82
Incredible. Incredible. Yes.
00:35:13.85\00:35:15.74
Because it's an
empirical demonstration
00:35:15.77\00:35:19.06
in the laboratory
time and time again
00:35:19.09\00:35:21.66
that the critical
component to bringing
00:35:21.69\00:35:23.69
life from non-life
is the work of a mind.
00:35:23.72\00:35:26.90
And you have got some of
the best minds in the world.
00:35:26.93\00:35:29.28
Oh, yes.
00:35:29.31\00:35:30.68
So I want the
university students
00:35:30.71\00:35:32.82
who are watching
the telecast today
00:35:32.85\00:35:35.21
and your faith is being shaken
00:35:35.24\00:35:36.75
and you say, "Well, you
know, we don't need God."
00:35:36.78\00:35:38.49
You better listen to this
00:35:38.52\00:35:40.03
because what's happening
today in the lab is an evidence
00:35:40.06\00:35:43.96
that we need a great
intelligent master designer.
00:35:43.99\00:35:49.14
Don't you think?
Yes, that's exactly--
00:35:49.17\00:35:51.10
This is what now the
conclusion you have come to
00:35:51.13\00:35:53.53
and I believe you are right.
00:35:53.56\00:35:56.30
First, intelligent
design is controversial.
00:35:56.33\00:36:01.81
It doesn't have
a good connotations
00:36:01.84\00:36:04.30
we would like it to have,
00:36:04.33\00:36:06.37
it's been I believe declared by
some of the courts unscientific.
00:36:06.40\00:36:13.72
Do you believe in
intelligent design
00:36:13.75\00:36:18.45
and what about the
book "Darwin's Black Box"
00:36:18.48\00:36:22.05
that I read 10 times.
00:36:22.08\00:36:23.77
I had to do that, so
I could understand it?
00:36:23.80\00:36:26.54
But I like your book,
but this a great book.
00:36:26.57\00:36:30.36
And the "Amazing Propeller,"
00:36:30.39\00:36:32.11
you know what I
am talking about?
00:36:32.14\00:36:33.51
Yes, exactly.
00:36:33.54\00:36:34.91
This little thing
that goes through the water
00:36:34.94\00:36:36.31
and I got a speed boat
00:36:36.34\00:36:38.54
and you know I have got
this great engine in it,
00:36:38.57\00:36:42.42
but nature's got
these things too.
00:36:42.45\00:36:44.65
So tell me from your heart
00:36:44.68\00:36:48.09
and as a scientist your
views on intelligent design.
00:36:48.12\00:36:52.68
Well, I
thoroughly accept the notion
00:36:52.71\00:36:54.86
of intelligent
design. So you do.
00:36:54.89\00:36:56.87
You thoroughly
accept that notion. Yes.
00:36:56.90\00:36:58.97
And so does Hugh Ross. Yes.
00:36:59.00\00:37:00.66
And I think that's
what the evidence shows.
00:37:00.69\00:37:02.47
The evidence shows
that when you look at
00:37:02.50\00:37:05.03
whether it's the
largest objects in the universe
00:37:05.06\00:37:07.27
or the smallest
objects in the universe
00:37:07.30\00:37:09.47
that we have been talking about,
00:37:09.50\00:37:11.03
you see evidence
that these things
00:37:11.06\00:37:12.77
have been put
together by a mind.
00:37:12.80\00:37:15.11
In fact, one of
the things I find
00:37:15.14\00:37:17.78
absolutely astounding
as a biochemist is that
00:37:17.81\00:37:21.11
the way in which biochemical
systems are structured,
00:37:21.14\00:37:24.36
the way they operate is
identical to the designs
00:37:24.39\00:37:28.27
that we would
make as human beings.
00:37:28.30\00:37:30.17
So systems and
objects that we would make
00:37:30.20\00:37:32.93
have certain
signatures that indicate a mind
00:37:32.96\00:37:36.25
was responsible for
this system not nature
00:37:36.28\00:37:39.92
and we see those same
features inside the cell.
00:37:39.95\00:37:42.21
But can not
nature itself through
00:37:42.24\00:37:47.39
the laws of
nature produce things.
00:37:47.42\00:37:54.09
You have got natural selection,
we know that works. Yes.
00:37:54.12\00:37:59.04
You, of course,
00:37:59.07\00:38:00.44
you are an expert on the
theory of the God of the gaps.
00:38:00.47\00:38:03.66
If you don't
understand something you say,
00:38:03.69\00:38:05.90
"Well, it's supernatural."
00:38:05.93\00:38:07.61
We don't believe that.
00:38:07.64\00:38:09.49
We don't believe that
everything we don't understand
00:38:09.52\00:38:11.46
has got to be
supernatural, do we?
00:38:11.49\00:38:14.09
Well, to me I would argue
that it's not God of the gaps
00:38:14.12\00:38:16.73
because we clearly don't
want to make that argument that
00:38:16.76\00:38:19.58
if you can't explain it
today we just insert God--
00:38:19.61\00:38:22.76
Yeah, and that's dangerous.
00:38:22.79\00:38:24.45
And it makes believers to say
these things rather Ludachrists.
00:38:24.48\00:38:29.09
That's right. Yeah.
00:38:29.12\00:38:30.49
But, but again
when you couple the idea
00:38:30.52\00:38:34.01
that biochemical
systems again look like
00:38:34.04\00:38:37.32
they are the
work of a human mind,
00:38:37.35\00:38:39.14
they have the identical features
to what we would produce
00:38:39.17\00:38:43.21
and then the work in the lab
00:38:43.24\00:38:45.87
in terms of trying
to create life in a lab,
00:38:45.90\00:38:47.79
you have really two
different lines of evidence
00:38:47.82\00:38:50.39
that are emerging
together that are consistent
00:38:50.42\00:38:52.51
with the idea that
life comes from a creator
00:38:52.54\00:38:55.21
that supports that idea
I believe very powerfully,
00:38:55.24\00:38:58.37
but it's astounding to me
we've been talking about DNA
00:38:58.40\00:39:03.30
but the way that DNA
functions inside the cell
00:39:03.33\00:39:06.23
is literally like
a computer system.
00:39:06.26\00:39:08.84
In fact, there is
this British mathematician
00:39:08.87\00:39:12.44
who died a premature
death name Alan Turing.
00:39:12.47\00:39:15.71
Yeah, I know, I know of
it. You got a picture of him.
00:39:15.74\00:39:18.17
You sent me a picture. I did.
00:39:18.20\00:39:19.59
He's become to
some degree my new hero
00:39:19.62\00:39:22.45
because he's the
father of computer science
00:39:22.48\00:39:25.47
and he developed these
things called Turing machines
00:39:25.50\00:39:28.05
where he said, a
Turing machine is a machine
00:39:28.08\00:39:33.17
that takes a data
input, transforms it
00:39:33.20\00:39:36.67
and then generates an output
00:39:36.70\00:39:39.07
and if you string
these Turing machine together
00:39:39.10\00:39:41.34
you can take
very simple operations
00:39:41.37\00:39:43.13
and make them
incredibility complex.
00:39:43.16\00:39:45.46
Well, it turns out
that the cells machinery
00:39:45.49\00:39:48.77
that manipulates DNA is an
ensemble of Turing machines
00:39:48.80\00:39:53.32
and what's interesting is that
00:39:53.35\00:39:54.85
the Turing machines that
computer scientist work with
00:39:54.88\00:39:58.06
are mental constructs
they are not physical machines,
00:39:58.09\00:40:01.33
but inside the cell you have
these physical Turing machines
00:40:01.36\00:40:05.89
that are working to carry
out very complex operations
00:40:05.92\00:40:09.06
so much so that this
computer scientist said
00:40:09.09\00:40:12.44
the university of
Southern California,
00:40:12.47\00:40:14.28
Leonard Adleman recognized this
00:40:14.31\00:40:16.61
and founded a whole
new area of nano-technology
00:40:16.64\00:40:19.73
called DNA computing where
he's taking those principles
00:40:19.76\00:40:22.95
and he's building
computers out of DNA.
00:40:22.98\00:40:26.07
He's building
computers out of DNA.
00:40:26.10\00:40:28.17
Exactly, because the cell
is functioning like a computer.
00:40:28.20\00:40:32.36
Do you hear this,
building computers out of DNA?
00:40:32.39\00:40:33.91
Because the cell is
functioning like a computer
00:40:33.94\00:40:36.97
which in its
functioning in the same way
00:40:37.00\00:40:39.89
that Alan Turing in
his mind conceived of it.
00:40:39.92\00:40:43.01
So to me that's extremely
provocative in terms of
00:40:43.04\00:40:47.52
again the idea that life
comes from the work of the mind.
00:40:47.55\00:40:51.53
And-- It's rather compelling.
00:40:51.56\00:40:54.02
Is it not true to say that
a scientist who was an atheist
00:40:54.05\00:40:59.48
and who was dealing
with all of these things
00:40:59.51\00:41:01.49
is a man of tremendous faith?
00:41:01.52\00:41:04.01
You have got to
have a lot of faith
00:41:04.04\00:41:05.56
to believe there's no God.
00:41:05.59\00:41:06.96
Yeah, I think there's a
pre-commitment to a world view.
00:41:06.99\00:41:09.62
There's a
tremendous step of faith
00:41:09.65\00:41:14.05
to say after
all of this evidence
00:41:14.08\00:41:16.97
and all these Turing
machines or there's no Turing.
00:41:17.00\00:41:22.94
Now there are
different forms of evolution.
00:41:22.97\00:41:28.82
There's micro
evolution, we believe--
00:41:28.85\00:41:31.61
you believe in micro evolution.
00:41:31.64\00:41:33.01
Yeah, I sure do.
00:41:33.04\00:41:34.41
I mean, every scientist
has got to believe in that.
00:41:34.44\00:41:36.57
There was a time
00:41:36.60\00:41:37.97
when Christians didn't
believe in micro evolution.
00:41:38.00\00:41:40.27
We believe that-- well, tell me.
00:41:40.30\00:41:44.48
You tell me what we believe.
00:41:44.51\00:41:46.53
What is micro evolution?
00:41:46.56\00:41:47.93
Like a peppered moth that
everybody is familiar with
00:41:47.96\00:41:49.97
whose wings change from
light to dark and dark to light
00:41:50.00\00:41:52.92
based on industrial pollutant
00:41:52.95\00:41:54.82
in the environment
that's micro revolution.
00:41:54.85\00:41:56.53
It's a fact. Yeah.
00:41:56.56\00:41:57.93
Or the Galapagos finches,
00:41:57.96\00:41:59.33
you know where one
finch gives rise to
00:41:59.36\00:42:01.90
a number of closely
related finches. Yes.
00:42:01.93\00:42:03.96
And viruses becoming
resistant to antibiotics.
00:42:03.99\00:42:07.92
Yeah. So this well established.
00:42:07.95\00:42:09.79
Its not-- I don't
this it contradicts
00:42:09.82\00:42:12.33
the notion of a creator
been responsible for that.
00:42:12.36\00:42:14.21
Not at all. Not at all.
00:42:14.24\00:42:15.87
But let's talk
about macro evolution
00:42:15.90\00:42:18.61
and the time restrains.
00:42:18.64\00:42:21.10
Now for macro
evolution to operate
00:42:21.13\00:42:25.05
you need massive
periods of time. Yes.
00:42:25.08\00:42:29.64
And more than this if
we press Richard Dawkins
00:42:29.67\00:42:33.96
and I don't doubt
that he's an honest man.
00:42:33.99\00:42:36.52
We shouldn't say a
person is not honest
00:42:36.55\00:42:38.43
because they don't
think the same as we do.
00:42:38.46\00:42:41.10
But Richard
Dawkins as an honest man
00:42:41.13\00:42:44.07
must be forced to concede
00:42:44.10\00:42:46.64
that he doesn't
know how life started.
00:42:46.67\00:42:49.37
In fact, no scientist knows. No.
00:42:49.40\00:42:50.96
Knows how life started. No.
00:42:50.99\00:42:52.80
This in a sense--
From the lab nobody knows.
00:42:52.83\00:42:55.79
You know, there's been work
00:42:55.82\00:42:57.19
over the last 60-65
years on this question
00:42:57.22\00:43:00.29
and there's not been
00:43:00.32\00:43:01.69
any genuine
progress that's been made.
00:43:01.72\00:43:03.53
A lot of work has been done,
00:43:03.56\00:43:04.96
a lot of ideas have been floated
00:43:04.99\00:43:06.84
but there's been
no genuine progress
00:43:06.87\00:43:09.06
in my mind
explaining the origin of life.
00:43:09.09\00:43:11.99
Well, talk to me now,
00:43:12.02\00:43:13.39
tell me the weaknesses you have
seen in the theory of evolution,
00:43:13.42\00:43:19.28
macro evolution
because of the time constraints
00:43:19.31\00:43:23.21
that we know
exists for life to evolve.
00:43:23.24\00:43:26.67
Well, for example
00:43:26.70\00:43:28.65
as soon as the earth is
capable of supporting life
00:43:28.68\00:43:31.29
we see that life
appears in a geological instant.
00:43:31.32\00:43:34.97
And it just again
it appears suddenly
00:43:35.00\00:43:38.39
and the very first life
forms that appear on earth
00:43:38.42\00:43:41.24
are simple single cell bacteria
like we have been talking about,
00:43:41.27\00:43:46.34
but even though again
00:43:46.37\00:43:48.02
they appear
superficially to be simple.
00:43:48.05\00:43:50.34
They are
incredibly complex organisms
00:43:50.37\00:43:53.25
and so this sudden appearance
of intrinsically complex life.
00:43:53.28\00:43:57.33
And every scientist has
got to concede that this is so.
00:43:57.36\00:44:02.00
Yes, this is well established.
00:44:02.03\00:44:03.76
So what we are talking here now,
00:44:03.79\00:44:05.89
we are going to
use the arguments
00:44:05.92\00:44:10.10
that are often used against us.
00:44:10.13\00:44:14.93
Because every scientist
will agree that life appears
00:44:14.96\00:44:19.73
apparently
suddenly on the planet
00:44:19.76\00:44:23.34
over very short period
of time and its complex life
00:44:23.37\00:44:30.35
and it doesn't seem
impossible, is this true?
00:44:30.38\00:44:32.47
Doesn't seem impossible
that life going through
00:44:32.50\00:44:35.56
the process of evolution
could reach such a stage?
00:44:35.59\00:44:39.68
Yes, and that rapidly. No.
00:44:39.71\00:44:42.72
And so this is to me
one of the big problems
00:44:42.75\00:44:45.54
with trying to
explain the origin of life.
00:44:45.57\00:44:48.50
And don't scientists
recognize this in the theory of,
00:44:48.53\00:44:51.43
what is it Panspermia or
Tanspermia, what is it called?
00:44:51.46\00:44:54.12
Yeah,
Panspermia. Yeah, Panspermia.
00:44:54.15\00:44:56.09
Tell us about why do they
have this idea of Panspermia?
00:44:56.12\00:44:57.99
Well, the idea is that
00:44:58.02\00:44:59.56
if there's not time
for life to evolve on earth
00:44:59.59\00:45:02.50
if it appears
suddenly then they argue,
00:45:02.53\00:45:04.61
well, maybe life
didn't appear on earth.
00:45:04.64\00:45:06.90
It appeared somewhere
else in our solar system.
00:45:06.93\00:45:09.76
Or even beyond our solar system
and was transported to earth
00:45:09.79\00:45:13.29
and so when
life appears on earth
00:45:13.32\00:45:16.10
for the first time it's
not its origin on earth,
00:45:16.13\00:45:18.89
but its delivery to earth. Yeah.
00:45:18.92\00:45:21.54
But while this
idea of panspermia
00:45:21.57\00:45:24.41
has been bantered around,
00:45:24.44\00:45:26.69
there not a
whole lot of scientists
00:45:26.72\00:45:28.31
that think it has
a lot of credibility,
00:45:28.34\00:45:30.84
because you are
just simply postponing
00:45:30.87\00:45:32.83
the problems someplace else.
00:45:32.86\00:45:34.94
Now you're not
really solving the problem.
00:45:34.97\00:45:36.63
No, it's true.
00:45:36.66\00:45:38.03
The transport mechanisms
just simply don't work.
00:45:38.06\00:45:41.47
But is not an admission
that the theory of the evolution
00:45:41.50\00:45:45.98
as it is taught has
filed at least on this planet?
00:45:46.01\00:45:49.53
Yes, that is one way
you can think of that,
00:45:49.56\00:45:52.15
about that and I
think it's legitimate--
00:45:52.18\00:45:53.56
And so there's not
enough time on this planet,
00:45:53.59\00:45:56.56
even with billions of
years there's not enough time
00:45:56.59\00:45:59.91
therefore it
happened somewhere else.
00:45:59.94\00:46:02.01
Yes, exactly.
00:46:02.04\00:46:03.41
And this
motivates NASA somewhat.
00:46:03.44\00:46:05.70
Is that true? It does.
00:46:05.73\00:46:07.45
I mean, the big thrust of NASA
00:46:07.48\00:46:09.51
at least with regard to
its sciences to look for life
00:46:09.54\00:46:12.90
in our solar
system and beyond. Yeah.
00:46:12.93\00:46:15.18
And, you know, they're convinced
00:46:15.21\00:46:16.62
that there has to
be life everywhere.
00:46:16.65\00:46:18.92
But yet, I've not seen anything
00:46:18.95\00:46:21.04
coming from NASA
that is compelling--
00:46:21.07\00:46:23.13
No. Towards that end.
00:46:23.16\00:46:24.71
There's almost a
fanatical religious zeal
00:46:24.74\00:46:29.04
to find an evidence
of life on other planets,
00:46:29.07\00:46:32.17
so that they can say,
00:46:32.20\00:46:33.57
well, may I use the word
they wouldn't use, Hallelujah.
00:46:33.60\00:46:38.91
It couldn't start here
00:46:38.94\00:46:40.31
because it wasn't enough
time, but it started there
00:46:40.34\00:46:43.04
and therefore we have
saved the theory of Darwinism
00:46:43.07\00:46:47.09
and the theory of evolution.
00:46:47.12\00:46:49.84
Now, tell us about--
00:46:49.87\00:46:53.51
are you folks
getting this, not enough time
00:46:53.54\00:46:56.26
according to the
arguments of the evolutionists,
00:46:56.29\00:46:59.00
the life to happen on
the earth and if there was,
00:46:59.03\00:47:02.42
how did it
happen and nobody knows?
00:47:02.45\00:47:05.12
Haven't got a
clue, I'll tell you.
00:47:05.15\00:47:07.69
Tell us about the
Origin of Life program
00:47:07.72\00:47:13.18
because these are being going--
00:47:13.21\00:47:14.58
haven't they for
about 50 years or something?
00:47:14.61\00:47:16.26
Yes. Have you been along?
00:47:16.29\00:47:17.85
Yes, yes, I mean, you
know, this has been a program
00:47:17.88\00:47:23.38
that's been a vigorous program
for the last 50, 65 years now.
00:47:23.41\00:47:28.69
And I've been to a
number of meetings,
00:47:28.72\00:47:31.64
I've actually even written
00:47:31.67\00:47:33.04
articles for
Origin of Life journals
00:47:33.07\00:47:35.82
where I've been critical of
specific aspects of the model.
00:47:35.85\00:47:39.82
And they publish
this? Yes, they have.
00:47:39.85\00:47:41.22
That's good, isn't
it? That is, they are--
00:47:41.25\00:47:44.46
It's an
interesting group of people
00:47:44.49\00:47:46.03
because everybody
has their own ideas
00:47:46.06\00:47:48.87
which in and of themselves
00:47:48.90\00:47:50.41
are not necessarily
the most robust ideas
00:47:50.44\00:47:53.51
and they are very quick to
criticize one another's ideas.
00:47:53.54\00:47:55.96
Which is good. Which is good.
00:47:55.99\00:47:57.37
Yeah, that's honesty.
00:47:57.40\00:47:58.77
Yes, the matter of fact
is that everybody realizes
00:47:58.80\00:48:02.37
that no matter
what model they float
00:48:02.40\00:48:05.26
to try to explain
chemical evolution,
00:48:05.29\00:48:08.08
there is always deficiencies
00:48:08.11\00:48:09.74
and so again there's not
00:48:09.77\00:48:11.19
a whole lot of
progress being made.
00:48:11.22\00:48:13.54
Is it true and this
analogy has been used?
00:48:13.57\00:48:17.62
I think the author of
Darwin's "Black Box" use it
00:48:17.65\00:48:22.94
he said, "You make a
discovery, you open a door.
00:48:22.97\00:48:26.87
Ah, this it
great? We've got this."
00:48:26.90\00:48:29.38
So you open the door,
00:48:29.41\00:48:30.78
there's a corridor there
that's thousand miles long.
00:48:30.81\00:48:34.68
And you walk down this corridor
00:48:34.71\00:48:36.51
and there's doors
on either side of you.
00:48:36.54\00:48:38.95
And so you say, well, okay,
you get down this long corridor,
00:48:38.98\00:48:42.84
then you open the last door
and there's another corridor.
00:48:42.87\00:48:46.94
So really am I
getting any closer
00:48:46.97\00:48:50.75
to solving the
mystery of life without God?
00:48:50.78\00:48:54.36
No, I don't think so.
00:48:54.39\00:48:55.91
I think in fact the more that
this problem is being researched
00:48:55.94\00:49:01.75
I think the more
compelling the case is
00:49:01.78\00:49:05.42
for intelligent
design, you know,
00:49:05.45\00:49:08.85
what's being discovered
00:49:08.88\00:49:10.25
particularly in the
last 10 years or so,
00:49:10.28\00:49:12.05
I think is really raising
questions as to whether or not
00:49:12.08\00:49:16.69
again life could come from
non-life through chemical means
00:49:16.72\00:49:20.71
and raising those
questions in a very serious way
00:49:20.74\00:49:23.30
and it's really a
philosophical commitment
00:49:23.33\00:49:26.03
to a particular world
view that I think fuels
00:49:26.06\00:49:30.28
the research today
more so than anything else.
00:49:30.31\00:49:33.60
When I've been
reading through your book,
00:49:33.63\00:49:35.17
I was delighted to discover that
there are some pictures also.
00:49:35.20\00:49:38.61
Because here we've
got pictures of a membrane
00:49:41.14\00:49:44.79
and we've got cells
and when you look at this,
00:49:44.82\00:49:49.96
one's mind is overwhelmed
00:49:52.30\00:49:57.33
by the intricacy
and the complexity
00:49:57.36\00:50:05.32
and so there's not enough time
00:50:05.35\00:50:07.17
I know for these
things to happen,
00:50:07.20\00:50:08.90
there's not enough
time in the universe
00:50:08.93\00:50:11.17
for these things to happen.
00:50:11.20\00:50:13.40
And to me it is a
compelling evidence
00:50:13.43\00:50:17.14
that there must be
an intelligent designer
00:50:17.17\00:50:20.68
who has all power and all might
00:50:20.71\00:50:25.44
and the wonderful thing
is He has given us a book
00:50:25.47\00:50:28.66
and the book tells us
He is interested in us
00:50:28.69\00:50:31.24
and He loves us and we
are not alone in the universe.
00:50:31.27\00:50:35.76
Doctor, we admire your work,
00:50:35.79\00:50:38.53
tell me this, what would you say
00:50:38.56\00:50:41.40
to a young person
attending university
00:50:41.43\00:50:43.46
and being bombarded
by atheistic evolution,
00:50:43.49\00:50:47.40
possibly, by good
professors who are nice guys,
00:50:47.43\00:50:50.65
can one believe in the creator
00:50:50.68\00:50:53.19
and still be
intellectually respectable?
00:50:53.22\00:50:57.06
I think so. Duncan says no.
00:50:57.09\00:50:59.71
I think you can because I think
00:50:59.74\00:51:01.44
when you look at the
way nature is put together,
00:51:01.47\00:51:04.34
whether it's when
you study astronomy
00:51:04.37\00:51:06.65
or you study biochemistry-- Yes.
00:51:06.68\00:51:08.73
Everywhere you look, you
see overwhelming evidence
00:51:08.76\00:51:12.06
for again God's fingerprints
for the work of a mind
00:51:12.09\00:51:17.39
and you just see
an incredible beauty
00:51:17.42\00:51:20.52
to the created order
that is awe-inspiring
00:51:20.55\00:51:24.17
that I think is consistent
with statements in Scripture
00:51:24.20\00:51:28.98
such as the heavens
declare the glory of God
00:51:29.01\00:51:31.75
or look at the wondrous
works that God has done.
00:51:31.78\00:51:35.73
So here is evidence for an
intelligent mind to believe
00:51:35.76\00:51:39.48
and being a
Christian is not to be equated
00:51:39.51\00:51:42.95
with being simple or foolish
00:51:42.98\00:51:49.59
or some would say in
their sarcasm, stupid.
00:51:49.62\00:51:54.79
"You have got to be
stupid to believe this."
00:51:54.82\00:51:57.17
Because as the evidence comes in
00:51:57.20\00:51:58.95
we see the
outworking of a mighty mind.
00:51:58.98\00:52:02.81
Can you comment
on the statement,
00:52:02.84\00:52:05.28
"It is not a case of
nature against Scripture,
00:52:05.31\00:52:09.27
but rather a case of
science against theology?
00:52:09.30\00:52:14.23
Have Christians and
the church tour era,
00:52:14.26\00:52:19.35
have scientist held
invalid and false ideas."
00:52:19.38\00:52:23.46
it's a long question,
it's a series of questions,
00:52:23.49\00:52:26.08
and what is bigotry?
00:52:26.11\00:52:28.70
Yeah, well, you know, to me
00:52:28.73\00:52:30.10
I believe that God has
revealed Himself to us. Yes.
00:52:30.13\00:52:34.07
And the Bible
represents that revelation to us
00:52:34.10\00:52:36.98
and as we read through the Bible
00:52:37.01\00:52:38.40
we discover that
it also teaches us
00:52:38.43\00:52:41.23
that God has revealed Himself
to us through His creation. Yes.
00:52:41.26\00:52:44.94
And so both the creation
and the words of scripture
00:52:44.97\00:52:48.42
have to be in agreement
with each other. Yes, indeed.
00:52:48.45\00:52:50.72
And that is our
commitment but we also recognize
00:52:50.75\00:52:54.09
that we are
fallible human beings. Yes.
00:52:54.12\00:52:56.07
Who are reading God's Word
and drawing interpretations
00:52:56.10\00:52:59.69
that may or may
not be correct. Yes.
00:52:59.72\00:53:01.67
We are studying
nature as scientists
00:53:01.70\00:53:03.99
and the conclusions we
draw may or may not be correct
00:53:04.02\00:53:07.51
and so, well, we believe there's
always going to be harmony
00:53:07.54\00:53:11.21
between God's Word
and God's revelation
00:53:11.24\00:53:14.71
through nature. Two books.
00:53:14.74\00:53:16.86
We also recognize that there
can be points of disagreement
00:53:16.89\00:53:21.33
when people interpret nature
through the process of science
00:53:21.36\00:53:24.53
or interpret scripture
through biblical studies
00:53:24.56\00:53:27.54
and through theology
00:53:27.57\00:53:29.10
and so when there's
conflict that arises,
00:53:29.13\00:53:31.29
we have to have the
humility on both sides. Yeah.
00:53:31.32\00:53:34.61
As scientists and
Christians to say,
00:53:34.64\00:53:36.38
maybe our
interpretations are wrong. Yeah.
00:53:36.41\00:53:38.73
And let's
revisit and work harder.
00:53:38.76\00:53:40.95
We are not infallible.
Let's keep open minds.
00:53:40.98\00:53:43.82
The last question is
the most important one.
00:53:43.85\00:53:46.71
What do you think of Christ?
00:53:46.74\00:53:48.25
Well, I think of Christ as
being my Lord and my Savior
00:53:48.28\00:53:53.12
that He is also the
creator who brought the universe
00:53:53.15\00:53:57.39
into existence and so
I love Jesus Christ and--
00:53:57.42\00:54:01.93
And do you have
everlasting life?
00:54:01.96\00:54:03.71
I believe I do in Jesus' life,
00:54:03.74\00:54:07.26
death, and resurrection. Yes.
00:54:07.29\00:54:09.10
And so I put my trust
in His work on the cross
00:54:09.13\00:54:12.24
and love Jesus
and seek to serve Him.
00:54:12.27\00:54:16.10
And if we trust Him,
00:54:16.13\00:54:17.50
it doesn't
depend upon us so much,
00:54:17.53\00:54:21.82
doesn't depend upon our good
works and our righteousness,
00:54:21.85\00:54:25.22
it depends upon His good
works and His righteousness.
00:54:25.25\00:54:29.36
You know, it's
amazing that the God
00:54:29.39\00:54:30.95
who made everything is a
God who is also interested in us
00:54:30.98\00:54:35.30
and He has loved us so
much that He was willing
00:54:35.33\00:54:38.44
to go out of His way to
redeem us from our falling.
00:54:38.47\00:54:43.82
Only an infinite God could have
devised the plan of salvation.
00:54:43.85\00:54:48.48
And as you said before
reading through the Bible,
00:54:48.51\00:54:52.04
the New Testament,
nobody could have thought up
00:54:52.07\00:54:55.58
to the person of
Christ, Christ Himself,
00:54:55.61\00:54:58.97
our Lord and our Savior
whom we recommend to you today
00:54:59.00\00:55:03.38
is the greatest reason
why you can believe in God.
00:55:03.41\00:55:09.70
Doctor Rana, it has been
00:55:09.73\00:55:11.87
a great pleasure to
have you with us today.
00:55:11.90\00:55:14.56
We look upon you as
a colleague in Christ,
00:55:14.59\00:55:17.25
as a distinguished scientist.
00:55:17.28\00:55:20.62
We appreciate our
friend, Hugh Ross and the team
00:55:20.65\00:55:24.62
and that you're
endeavoring to give people
00:55:24.65\00:55:26.78
reasons to
believe in God. Thank you.
00:55:26.81\00:55:29.55
And so we have
enjoyed having you here today.
00:55:29.58\00:55:32.50
Thank you for having
me. It's really good.
00:55:32.53\00:55:35.67
I want to thank you
today for joining us
00:55:35.70\00:55:38.44
for this intellectually,
stimulating conversation,
00:55:38.47\00:55:42.95
but more than that we have been
00:55:42.98\00:55:45.62
thinking God's
thoughts after Him
00:55:45.65\00:55:47.65
as we have seen scientists
in the laboratory playing God.
00:55:47.68\00:55:52.36
We have discovered that
there is a God who loves you.
00:55:52.39\00:55:55.32
Please write to me today,
00:55:55.35\00:55:56.72
John Carter,
Post Office box 1900,
00:55:56.75\00:55:59.40
Thousand Oaks,
California, 91358.
00:55:59.43\00:56:02.53
In Australia, write to
the address at Terrigal.
00:56:02.56\00:56:05.31
Until next time God bless you.
00:56:05.34\00:56:08.10
We will live in the
light of the risen Lamb
00:56:11.28\00:56:18.78
See over there, there's a
mansion prepared just for me
00:56:19.88\00:56:27.38
Where I can live
with my Savior eternally
00:56:28.44\00:56:36.44
There will be no
more night no more pain
00:56:38.96\00:56:46.96
I said no more tears
never crying no crying
00:56:49.62\00:56:57.12
And praises to the great I am
00:56:58.29\00:57:06.29
We will live in the
light of the risen Lamb
00:57:06.32\00:57:14.29
We will live in the
light of the risen Lamb
00:57:21.95\00:57:29.95