Is it possible to
be gay and Christian?
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The answer may surprise you
in this edition of Coming Out.
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Welcome to part
11 of Coming Out,
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a special series
dealing with gay,
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homosexual, lesbian
and biblical issues.
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The title of our program
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and the question
that we're asking is,
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"Is it possible to be gay
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and Christian at the same time?"
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I'm here with Mike Carducci
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and Wayne Blakely
from Coming Out Ministries.
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We have-- they have and
I do and the Bible does.
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We have a lot to say
about this but first of all,
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let me just pose
the question to you.
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Aren't there a
lot of people today
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that would answer that question
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with the resounding Y-E-S, yes?
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Certainly, you know
there is a-- there's a whole--
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there are many
denominations one out there
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today is the
Metropolitan Community Church
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which has a--
their main congregation
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is made up of gay Christians.
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I went there for years.
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You went there for
years, where is that, what city?
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Well, Orlando. Orlando, Florida.
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It has other branches
and satellite churches.
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Yeah, all across
the world, right.
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Okay, so they would
answer that question.
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How would they
answer that question
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if you walked into that church?
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Uh, you know, for
me it was the only way
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that I could bring my
belief in God together
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with my sexual identity
and you know it was amazing
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because I came out
when Aids came out.
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And here I'd be
sitting in the congregation
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and it was
basically the same people
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that I was in the bar
with the night before.
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And you can see
them, you know, struggling,
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they had Kaposi
sarcoma on their face
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and you know they had
very life threatening diseases.
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You know, you would
see the drag queens there,
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you know, dressing their
pantsuits and their high heels,
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but you know what
was interesting is
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I was impressed
by their sincerity,
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they're like me that
there were other people
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that wanted to be right with God
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and we're
seeking that sincerely.
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Also in many denominations
stay Lutheran, Presbyterian,
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I think Methodist too
and more and more being added
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that are
changing their doctrine.
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And so they also have
a component of the church
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would refer to
themselves as gay Christians.
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Yeah, there are
ordained gay pastors.
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There are-- so
you have, you know,
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we have
Christianity on the one side,
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we have gay
community on the other side.
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And there is a
sort of a hotchpotch
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in the middle of churches
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like the one
that you went to where
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there are openly practicing
gay pastors and people.
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We have "Christian gay"?
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Community but
it's definitely real,
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I mean it's out there
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I recently read
this book the Gay Gospel,
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How Pro-Gay
Advocates Misread the Bible
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by Joe Dallas, by Joe Dallas.
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This book is a fascinating book
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and Joe went to one of these
churches for quite a while.
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And he has a
number of quotes here
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and he used to believe this.
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Here's a quote from
gay author Mel White
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where he says "I
have learned to accept
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and even celebrate
my sexual orientation
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as another one of
God's good gifts."
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Here's another one from
Pastor Troy Perry who is--
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that's the church
that we've been talking
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about the
Metropolitan Community Church.
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He said, "How could
we go on being ashamed
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of something that God created?
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Yes, God created
homosexuals and homosexuality."
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And then gay
priest Malcolm Boyd said,
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"I thank, I offer thanks to
God for the gift of being gay."
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So this certainly is
the position of many people
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of an increasing amount of
people even within our own,
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our own
denominations, our own church
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there is a
segment that believes this
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and they would
answer that question.
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"Is it possible to
be gay and Christian?"
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Definitely they would say yes.
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Now before we go
farther and try to offer
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some biblical
clarity on this topic.
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Mike, I want to really
focus on your experience
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and you guess my question is,
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can God work in
such a situation,
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you know was he working
in your life at that time.
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Just tell us a
little more about that
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I think it's brighter.
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Yeah. It's just revealing.
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It's amazing
because when I got baptize
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I got it that the
Lord love me for who I was
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and all I knew was
that I was a gay person.
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I tried to change
as a young person,
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I left church culture
because I couldn't blend,
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I couldn't get answers
from my-- my sexual attractions
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and my religion and
so I left that totally.
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Well, coming back
in at 40 years old,
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I got it that Jesus
love me for who I was
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and I thought that
included my gay identity.
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And so I got
baptized with a boyfriend
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and a sexual addiction.
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So you were still--
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you were still
living with your boyfriend?
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Or you're living with
him or just had a boyfriend?
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We weren't living
together but we were--
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Okay, but you had a boyfriend
and so you were baptized.
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You had sincerely
given your heart to Christ.
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Right, the night
before I got baptized.
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As best you could.
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Yeah, my sister said what are
you gonna about your boyfriend?
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And adamantly I just said,
I'm gay, I was born this way,
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I tried to change.
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I asked God to change
me that never happened?
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I said all I know is that
Jesus loves me for who I am
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and that's why
I'm getting baptized.
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And my sister she
stopped the pastor didn't know,
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nobody in the church
knew I was fearful to expose
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what I was-- what I was
coming into the church for fear
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I'd be rejected of kicked out.
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But I was only
following Jesus Christ
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and my faith was like
a piece of dental floss.
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The God I believe was
able to work with that
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and as I didn't come up
out of the water straight
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and I thought
things might change
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but this was going to
be a process of beginning
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that
relationship from the moment
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I made the public
expression to be baptized.
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Yeah, today you are one of
the cofounders of Coming Out.
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And so-- again tell
us a little bit more,
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you-- you were, you
accepted Jesus Christ.
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And I can't, my conscience
will let me say to myself
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that when you
accepted Jesus Christ
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before you are baptized.
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You know and you
had a very simple faith,
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just like you
know the song that says
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that Jesus loves me this I know,
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for the Bible tells me so.
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Yeah. You know.
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Well, then Bible
started to tell me differently.
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Okay but first--
I guess my question,
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you know, I want to
zero in on this first.
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'Cause I think it's
important. Yes, yes.
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That you had accepted Christ
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and you know is
it correct to say
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that you were a Christian
when you accepted Jesus Christ?
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Without a doubt.
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I know that my
conversion experience
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happen that night that I
gave my life to the Lord.
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You know Isaiah
58:8 or 55:8 says
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"For my thoughts
are not your thoughts,
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neither are your ways my ways."
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And that to me, it
helps me to understand
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that God knew
that I needed to make
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that public expression
of my commitment to him.
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And he wasn't worried
about all of the other things,
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the sexual
addiction and the boyfriend
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that wasn't the issue.
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The issue was understanding
in how to relate to a God
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that called Himself
father and also a God
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who called Himself my savior
and my friend and my brother.
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I didn't know
how to relate to men
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and all of that was broken.
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But all Jesus
needed for me to do
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was to make my stand for him
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and he was going to do the rest.
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This was the work
that I couldn't do
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but as I cooperated
with that little bit of faith
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that I had, he
was able to move me
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and to grow me and
while it cost him a lot,
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Steve, and it was messy.
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What was
incredible was that I realized
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according to 1 John
1:9, that He is faithful.
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He was the one that
was gonna cleanse me
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from all unrighteousness.
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My job was merely
to confess my sin.
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So you were,
you know, in my mind
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I think of you has as a
baby Christian at that time.
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You were just a new
born and you were just,
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you know, baby's
come out and they--
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they don't know a lot and
they're just little babies
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and you were, you know you
had given your heart to Jesus
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and He was at work in your life
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but as Pastor Ron said
it during a previous program
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which I think, we all I
know, we all agree with,
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God takes us where we are
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but he doesn't
leave us where we are.
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You know, you said,
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you mentioned
cooperation with God
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and I'm thinking
about cooperation
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with the Holy
Spirit and you know
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I was hanging out
with my best friend
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who was practicing gay
man like myself at the time
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and one day before we
were going garage sailing
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he said to me, hey we
have to have church first
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and I'm like, I hadn't
been to church in years.
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And I was like what
are you talking about?
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People like us don't usually
get considered as someone
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who would still believe in God
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or go to church or
anything so he turns on the TV
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and there is Joyce
Meyer and she is preaching
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and she said I got
this amazing message
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and my heart is just thrilled
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and connected all of the sudden,
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and I said to my
friend Dave afterwards
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and I said, how is
that you can suffer
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from the
alienation from your parents
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and from your brothers and
sisters and from the church
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and still have a
connection with God.
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And he said, Wayne,
you can't let anything come
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between you and your
relationship with Jesus Christ.
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And from that day forward,
I began to start praying
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and communing with Jesus Christ.
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And God takes us where we are,
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where else can He find us?
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But where we are?
00:10:01.64\00:10:02.72
So, Mike, I want to go back
to you as after your baptism.
00:10:02.75\00:10:06.31
Where they didn't know
about your secret other identity
00:10:06.34\00:10:10.88
or your secret identity.
00:10:10.91\00:10:11.97
It was only a secret to
them, everybody else knew.
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Yeah, okay.
00:10:14.23\00:10:15.36
But anyway
afterwards then what did
00:10:15.39\00:10:17.63
God show you as your--
00:10:17.66\00:10:19.69
as your journey continued
on as you-- as you grew up.
00:10:19.72\00:10:24.20
In your Christian life,
00:10:24.23\00:10:26.15
eventually to bring
you to where you are today?
00:10:26.18\00:10:28.72
Right.
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In this, you know, you
are cofounder of Coming Out.
00:10:29.83\00:10:34.61
What happened is when I
started to read the text
00:10:34.64\00:10:36.67
about how the Bible calls
homosexuality and abomination.
00:10:36.70\00:10:40.73
I was deeply offended by that.
00:10:40.76\00:10:42.22
How could you
say that you love me
00:10:42.25\00:10:44.16
and then call me in abomination.
00:10:44.19\00:10:45.56
You know, haven't
I given you my life,
00:10:45.59\00:10:47.70
haven't I given you my heart
00:10:47.73\00:10:48.82
but this is
something that I can't change.
00:10:48.85\00:10:51.10
And what I said is-- I said
00:10:51.13\00:10:52.16
if you want me out
of that relationship,
00:10:52.19\00:10:53.46
you're gonna
have to do it yourself
00:10:53.49\00:10:55.17
because I'm digging at my heals,
00:10:55.20\00:10:56.23
I'm gonna prove to you
00:10:56.26\00:10:57.55
that we can be this
mighty team for you.
00:10:57.58\00:10:59.78
And so again God took
me my word and He said,
00:10:59.81\00:11:02.18
great you just gave
me permission to work
00:11:02.21\00:11:04.06
and within a few weeks my
boyfriend broke up with me.
00:11:04.09\00:11:06.62
And I was at home
and I remember this
00:11:06.65\00:11:08.39
desperation
coming over me is like,
00:11:08.42\00:11:10.55
what you mean to tell
me that I'll never know
00:11:10.58\00:11:12.31
what it's like to
love someone again.
00:11:12.34\00:11:14.06
That I'll never know
what it's like to be held
00:11:14.09\00:11:15.85
or to be comforted or to love
00:11:15.88\00:11:18.36
and I cried out
for weeks by myself
00:11:18.39\00:11:21.02
because I couldn't
share with my sister.
00:11:21.05\00:11:22.85
She would have been
overjoyed and I was in misery.
00:11:22.88\00:11:25.08
And I couldn't share
with my straight friends
00:11:25.11\00:11:27.65
because they would
have told me I was a fool
00:11:27.68\00:11:28.96
and go back to my boyfriend.
00:11:28.99\00:11:30.47
It was just me
and Jesus Christ alone
00:11:30.50\00:11:32.93
and He held me while I sobbed.
00:11:32.96\00:11:35.11
And then what happened is
00:11:35.14\00:11:36.17
He started to put
other men in my life
00:11:36.20\00:11:38.44
that were
struggling with homosexuality
00:11:38.47\00:11:40.53
and they were along
the same path with me.
00:11:40.56\00:11:42.87
Some of them in different areas,
00:11:42.90\00:11:44.96
some thought that if they
had a monogamous relationship.
00:11:44.99\00:11:47.41
Others were still
addicted to pornography as I was
00:11:47.44\00:11:50.78
and sexually acting out.
00:11:50.81\00:11:52.03
And what happened is like
God created this community
00:11:52.06\00:11:54.84
and He started to bring
in resources of testimonies
00:11:54.87\00:11:57.25
that we saw of men and women
00:11:57.28\00:11:59.01
that had come out
of their gay lifestyle.
00:11:59.04\00:12:00.64
And one testimony
particular of this man
00:12:00.67\00:12:03.32
that was so
feminine, I was so offended
00:12:03.35\00:12:05.56
when I started to
watch his testimony.
00:12:05.59\00:12:07.39
But as he shared his story
00:12:07.42\00:12:08.75
I saw the Holy
Spirit working through him
00:12:08.78\00:12:10.83
and I finally at the
end of the-- the testimony
00:12:10.86\00:12:13.35
tears are coming
down my face and I realize
00:12:13.38\00:12:15.29
that if God could
help that a feminine man
00:12:15.32\00:12:18.61
that He certainly
could work with me.
00:12:18.64\00:12:20.43
And you know what, that started
to change my understanding.
00:12:20.46\00:12:22.88
He was slowly giving me food
00:12:22.91\00:12:25.14
that I could
understand and digest,
00:12:25.17\00:12:27.44
but He couldn't give
it to me all at once,
00:12:27.47\00:12:29.13
it would have been overwhelming.
00:12:29.16\00:12:30.49
But what He did is
He was willing to make
00:12:30.52\00:12:32.28
that commitment to me that
this was gonna take a while
00:12:32.31\00:12:34.89
and 2 Peter 3:9 says
00:12:34.92\00:12:36.51
"The Lord is not slow
in keeping his promise,
00:12:36.54\00:12:38.64
as some understand slowness.
00:12:38.67\00:12:40.34
Instead he is patient with you,
not wanting anyone to perish,
00:12:40.37\00:12:44.18
but that everyone
should come to repentance."
00:12:44.21\00:12:46.41
And so I got baptized
and ended up realizing
00:12:46.44\00:12:49.12
that I had to make
this-- this decision
00:12:49.15\00:12:51.54
was I going to
hang on to Jesus Christ
00:12:51.57\00:12:53.64
which was
becoming everything for me
00:12:53.67\00:12:55.74
or was I gonna
hang on to my identity
00:12:55.77\00:12:57.84
and I came to a crossroads
00:12:57.87\00:12:59.03
because every
time I would act out,
00:12:59.06\00:13:00.83
I would feel the
separation from the loving God
00:13:00.86\00:13:03.36
who nurtured me and satisfied me
00:13:03.39\00:13:05.13
in a legitimate way.
00:13:05.16\00:13:06.64
And so I would
come running back to God
00:13:06.67\00:13:08.22
and say no Lord, I want
you but this calls me right.
00:13:08.25\00:13:12.92
So eventually I had
to make this decision,
00:13:12.95\00:13:15.06
I couldn't live
without Jesus Christ
00:13:15.09\00:13:16.83
and that was when I
had to close the door
00:13:16.86\00:13:19.39
on everything that I understood,
00:13:19.42\00:13:20.89
everything that I felt,
everything that I thought
00:13:20.92\00:13:23.01
that I was even entitled too
and as I followed Jesus Christ
00:13:23.04\00:13:26.69
and gave Him more
and more of myself.
00:13:26.72\00:13:29.47
He was able to
address not only the reasons
00:13:29.50\00:13:31.79
why this had happened,
00:13:31.82\00:13:33.02
but also the ways out
of the sexual addiction
00:13:33.05\00:13:35.53
and bondage that I
hooked in even in my ignorance.
00:13:35.56\00:13:40.51
He's a good guy.
So He worked with you.
00:13:40.54\00:13:43.04
Where you were, step by step,
00:13:43.07\00:13:46.35
and He
progressively changed you.
00:13:46.38\00:13:49.90
You know, as I
think about the word,
00:13:49.93\00:13:51.95
I mean I know a lot of people
would answer this question.
00:13:51.98\00:13:54.37
Is it possible to
be gay and Christian?
00:13:54.40\00:13:56.24
Many people would say yes.
00:13:56.27\00:13:58.59
And my thought is that--
00:13:58.62\00:13:59.80
it certainly is
possible as you are exhibit A
00:13:59.83\00:14:02.33
if they had to
for a person to be gay
00:14:02.36\00:14:05.61
and yet to respond to
the love of Jesus Christ,
00:14:05.64\00:14:09.27
and to accept
Him into your heart
00:14:09.30\00:14:12.90
to become a Christian
and to begin the journey.
00:14:12.93\00:14:16.09
And as you begin the journey,
the Lord continues His work.
00:14:16.12\00:14:20.32
There is a Bible verse it says,
00:14:20.35\00:14:21.39
"He who began a good
work, will finish it."
00:14:21.42\00:14:23.84
That's right.
00:14:23.87\00:14:24.90
And He doesn't
leave us where we are,
00:14:24.93\00:14:25.99
He takes us step by step.
00:14:26.02\00:14:27.08
And eventually He
Brought clarity to your mind
00:14:27.11\00:14:30.43
that you could not continue
to be a genuine real Christian
00:14:30.46\00:14:36.14
and still be
practicing a gay lifestyle,
00:14:36.17\00:14:40.05
isn't that correct?
00:14:40.08\00:14:41.89
Yeah, He brought
that clarity to you
00:14:41.92\00:14:44.81
and that you
know and I think about
00:14:44.84\00:14:45.88
the word Christian
itself to be a Christian
00:14:45.91\00:14:49.42
is to be a
follower of Jesus Christ.
00:14:49.45\00:14:50.82
That's right. And
Jesus Christ had no sin.
00:14:50.85\00:14:53.83
Jesus Christ gave us the Bible.
He's the center of the Bible.
00:14:53.86\00:14:57.44
The Bible certainly tells us
in Genesis what's God plan is,
00:14:57.47\00:15:01.39
since we've already
covered for a man and a women.
00:15:01.42\00:15:04.80
It tells us about the
fall, it talks about sin,
00:15:04.83\00:15:06.96
it talks about the
deceitfulness of the devil
00:15:06.99\00:15:09.26
and of our own
hearts and of the flesh
00:15:09.29\00:15:10.78
and the things
that we fall into.
00:15:10.81\00:15:13.56
And the Lord's goal as
it says in Daniel 12:10
00:15:13.59\00:15:19.27
"is to purify a people
00:15:19.30\00:15:22.08
and to prepare
them for his coming."
00:15:22.11\00:15:24.94
And so I guess I would
say that a baby Christian,
00:15:24.97\00:15:28.50
it's possible for
them to be a Christian
00:15:28.53\00:15:31.80
and to be have
taking the first steps
00:15:31.83\00:15:33.64
and have not really got it yet
00:15:33.67\00:15:37.10
about what the
Bible says about this.
00:15:37.13\00:15:39.20
But I think that,
you know, in your case
00:15:39.23\00:15:41.43
and I think
you're a perfect example
00:15:41.46\00:15:43.25
that when a person
continues to follow the Lord
00:15:43.28\00:15:45.87
and is honest with themselves
00:15:45.90\00:15:47.31
their
consciences in with the Bible
00:15:47.34\00:15:49.55
that a mature
Christian or a growing Christian
00:15:49.58\00:15:54.55
will eventually have to realize
that in order to continue
00:15:54.58\00:15:59.22
to be a genuine
follower of Jesus Christ
00:15:59.25\00:16:04.09
that lifestyle has
to go, it has to go.
00:16:04.12\00:16:08.59
Wayne, you have
any comments on that?
00:16:08.62\00:16:10.70
Isn't that
resonate with what your--
00:16:10.73\00:16:13.05
your burden is, I know that.
00:16:13.08\00:16:14.48
Yeah, I fought
well, you know five years
00:16:14.51\00:16:16.51
after my
beginning to pray to God,
00:16:16.54\00:16:19.48
you know God confronted
me or I confronted God
00:16:19.51\00:16:22.85
and I said, you
know, I don't know--
00:16:22.88\00:16:26.05
or God said to me, you
can't just keep blaming me
00:16:26.08\00:16:28.18
for something when you
don't sincerely know Me.
00:16:28.21\00:16:30.50
And the only way to know
Me is to get into My word
00:16:30.53\00:16:32.92
and to communicate
with Me and I began to find
00:16:32.95\00:16:36.05
that God was
opening up the doors for me
00:16:36.08\00:16:38.05
to learn more
about Him and if I-- why,
00:16:38.08\00:16:40.87
what I had believed for so long
00:16:40.90\00:16:43.39
was the only way
that I could believe
00:16:43.42\00:16:44.86
and He begin to
reveal Himself to me.
00:16:44.89\00:16:47.56
And pour me out of
what I thought was something
00:16:47.59\00:16:51.33
that was acceptable to Him.
00:16:51.36\00:16:52.73
So you realize
that what you thought
00:16:52.76\00:16:54.01
was acceptable
really isn't acceptable.
00:16:54.04\00:16:56.30
Correct, yeah. Not to Him.
00:16:56.33\00:16:57.63
You know, Steve, I don't
want to minimize in any way
00:16:57.66\00:16:59.75
that it was a matter of
like oh, well, this has to go.
00:16:59.78\00:17:02.56
It wasn't that
cavalier for either of us.
00:17:02.59\00:17:05.12
It came with great deliberation.
00:17:05.15\00:17:06.56
Sure.
00:17:06.59\00:17:07.62
And again Jesus never
yanked it out of our hands
00:17:07.65\00:17:11.37
or wrestled with us about it.
00:17:11.40\00:17:13.08
It was always our
choice to do. Sure.
00:17:13.11\00:17:15.06
But what was so
incredible, Wayne, right?
00:17:15.09\00:17:16.78
Is that when we let that go,
00:17:16.81\00:17:18.67
when we gave Him
the freedom the work
00:17:18.70\00:17:20.28
what He gave us instead
was something beyond anything
00:17:20.31\00:17:23.61
that I never could have
imagined the peace, right?
00:17:23.64\00:17:26.30
Incredible. Yes.
00:17:26.33\00:17:27.36
Peace. Yes, it satisfies.
00:17:27.39\00:17:29.36
A clean
conscience, an empty heart.
00:17:29.39\00:17:31.63
I will keep them
in perfect peace.
00:17:31.66\00:17:33.56
Whose mind is state on
me because He's trusting me.
00:17:33.59\00:17:36.57
And I had to learn how
to trust God all over again.
00:17:36.60\00:17:39.20
I've been used
by men all my life.
00:17:39.23\00:17:40.83
I used men and so I
couldn't relate to a God
00:17:40.86\00:17:43.73
who called himself
love but as he showed me
00:17:43.76\00:17:46.03
that he was
there faithfully for me
00:17:46.06\00:17:47.53
and every time I fell
that He said get back up,
00:17:47.56\00:17:49.67
Michael, I still want you.
00:17:49.70\00:17:51.31
Then I was able
to start learning
00:17:51.34\00:17:53.03
how to trust Him
incrementally at first
00:17:53.06\00:17:55.17
and as that grew
also, then I could realize
00:17:55.20\00:17:57.95
that I could trust
Him with everything.
00:17:57.98\00:17:59.16
Yeah, amazing, I want--
00:17:59.19\00:18:00.98
Then God gave me a new identity.
00:18:01.01\00:18:02.83
Now that's
right. In Jesus Christ.
00:18:02.86\00:18:04.30
Well, yeah, He did you
know I talk about Paul--
00:18:04.33\00:18:09.08
you know people said that
He want you a gay Christian
00:18:09.11\00:18:11.10
and I'm going, you
know, I'm really not,
00:18:11.13\00:18:12.88
I had to really research that
00:18:12.91\00:18:14.96
because I'm not
identified by my temptation.
00:18:14.99\00:18:18.14
And I used the
example about Paul,
00:18:18.17\00:18:19.83
you know, when Paul
was on the road to Damascus
00:18:19.86\00:18:22.80
and God intervened with him.
00:18:22.83\00:18:24.47
He said, Paul would
you stop killing Christians
00:18:24.50\00:18:26.40
and become one.
00:18:26.43\00:18:27.63
And he did and he praised God
00:18:27.66\00:18:29.99
but he didn't
continue to identify
00:18:30.02\00:18:31.66
as a Christian
killing Christian.
00:18:31.69\00:18:33.49
Sure, yeah, that's right.
00:18:33.52\00:18:34.63
And so God showed
me 2 Corinthians 5:17
00:18:34.66\00:18:39.19
and said that if you
repent "therefore he says
00:18:39.22\00:18:44.47
you know if anyone is in Christ,
00:18:44.50\00:18:46.54
he is a new creation;
old things have passed away,
00:18:46.57\00:18:49.44
behold, all
things have become new."
00:18:49.47\00:18:51.57
And so I have a new life,
a new beginning with Jesus.
00:18:51.60\00:18:55.47
Revelation Chapter 14 to me
00:18:55.50\00:18:58.01
really speaks to
this whole issue.
00:18:58.04\00:18:59.83
Revelation 14 is a
prophecy of three angels
00:18:59.86\00:19:02.72
that give messages to the world
before the return of Christ.
00:19:02.75\00:19:05.87
And in verse 7 there's a call
00:19:05.90\00:19:08.54
to worship Him that made heaven,
00:19:08.57\00:19:10.93
and earth and the sea,
and the fountains of waters
00:19:10.96\00:19:13.37
which is a call to
worship the creator.
00:19:13.40\00:19:15.07
And that points us
back to the garden.
00:19:15.10\00:19:16.91
In fact it
points back to Genesis
00:19:16.94\00:19:19.09
and to God's plan for
men and women in the garden,
00:19:19.12\00:19:22.71
His original plan.
00:19:22.74\00:19:24.21
And then the second angel
in verse 8 talks about Babylon,
00:19:24.24\00:19:27.94
it says that Babylon
the great has fallen,
00:19:27.97\00:19:30.13
has fallen and Babylon,
00:19:30.16\00:19:31.97
the word Babylon means confusion
00:19:32.00\00:19:33.97
and it says that
she's made all the nations
00:19:34.00\00:19:36.08
drink the wine
of her fornication
00:19:36.11\00:19:38.54
and it is a religious
conglomeration that's confused
00:19:38.57\00:19:42.18
and it's joining the
world with apparently
00:19:42.21\00:19:46.24
trying to join the
world with Christianity
00:19:46.27\00:19:48.27
is called fornication.
00:19:48.30\00:19:50.04
And it's then giving the world
00:19:50.07\00:19:51.80
its wine, its
confusing doctrines.
00:19:51.83\00:19:54.46
And in Chapter 18:4,
God says to His people,
00:19:54.49\00:19:57.71
come out, come out of that.
00:19:57.74\00:19:59.92
Don't
participate in that mixture,
00:19:59.95\00:20:01.98
that blend of the
world and the church
00:20:02.01\00:20:05.49
or religion or
true Christianity.
00:20:05.52\00:20:07.77
You just can't blend the world
00:20:07.80\00:20:10.03
and the Lord, it
just doesn't happen.
00:20:10.06\00:20:12.18
And then in verse
12 the third angel
00:20:12.21\00:20:14.45
makes an appeal to a group
of people to become saints.
00:20:14.48\00:20:19.68
It says here are they that
keep the Commandments of God
00:20:19.71\00:20:22.33
and the faith of Jesus.
00:20:22.36\00:20:23.89
And when you look at
the Ten Commandments,
00:20:23.92\00:20:25.55
honor your father and mother,
00:20:25.58\00:20:26.93
no adultery, children
you know respect your parents
00:20:26.96\00:20:30.85
and it's very clear
that the Ten Commandments
00:20:30.88\00:20:33.48
support marriage
00:20:33.51\00:20:35.05
they support
men being men, women
00:20:35.08\00:20:36.79
being women not
committing adultery.
00:20:36.82\00:20:39.00
Not having any
form of sexual deviation
00:20:39.03\00:20:42.31
but becoming a pure people
00:20:42.34\00:20:43.92
who follow the
commandments of God
00:20:43.95\00:20:45.43
and it seems to me that
God's call in these last days
00:20:45.46\00:20:47.96
doesn't seem to me I
know that based on Revelation
00:20:47.99\00:20:50.72
God's call to his people is
to come out of this confusing
00:20:50.75\00:20:55.54
blending trying
to blend, you know,
00:20:55.57\00:20:58.00
the things of the world
with the things of the Lord.
00:20:58.03\00:21:01.17
And to get real clarity on this
that from God's perspective,
00:21:01.20\00:21:06.53
you cannot
answer to the question.
00:21:06.56\00:21:09.37
I believe from the Bible
and from God's perspective,
00:21:09.40\00:21:12.42
you cannot
continue to be a practicing
00:21:12.45\00:21:18.64
gay person living a life
that is contrary to scripture
00:21:18.67\00:21:23.49
and yet still be a genuine
follower of Jesus Christ.
00:21:23.52\00:21:29.09
You know, it's just,
you know. When I came back--
00:21:29.12\00:21:31.24
Mixed in rolling water. Right.
00:21:31.27\00:21:33.13
When I came back to the Lord,
00:21:33.16\00:21:34.79
I followed Jesus
Christ as a young person
00:21:34.82\00:21:36.44
and at 20 years old I still knew
00:21:36.47\00:21:38.80
that He was a
savior of the world,
00:21:38.83\00:21:40.74
but I just figured that
ain't include homosexuals.
00:21:40.77\00:21:43.41
And then when I came
back at 40 during the 20 years
00:21:43.44\00:21:45.48
that I was in that
lifestyle and gone,
00:21:45.51\00:21:47.64
even in the church
culture that I went to,
00:21:47.67\00:21:50.37
Jesus Christ was nothing more
to me than just a good person.
00:21:50.40\00:21:53.56
I got it that He was
kind and loving and fair
00:21:53.59\00:21:55.77
but He didn't seem as
a savior with the ability
00:21:55.80\00:21:58.51
and the power to
overcome every sin.
00:21:58.54\00:22:00.86
And I believe it
that is some of what
00:22:00.89\00:22:04.03
we're saying that if
we go against God's word
00:22:04.06\00:22:07.21
because He made
a plan to me that--
00:22:07.24\00:22:08.99
that it was not
in his plan for me
00:22:09.02\00:22:11.05
but if we go
against that and say that,
00:22:11.08\00:22:13.24
that God will ignore
that or overlook at them.
00:22:13.27\00:22:15.29
Basically that's the biggest
insult is that we're saying it,
00:22:15.32\00:22:18.26
Jesus Christ is not powerful
enough to save us from our sin
00:22:18.29\00:22:22.28
and so then I can understand
why we would just say,
00:22:22.31\00:22:24.90
well, He's got
to accept me as I am
00:22:24.93\00:22:26.43
because He can't change me.
00:22:26.46\00:22:28.67
And, you know, and we
can also deceive ourselves
00:22:28.70\00:22:31.27
to becoming the people that
Jesus describes in Mathews 7
00:22:31.30\00:22:35.48
who say to him Lord,
Lord but who do not do
00:22:35.51\00:22:39.68
what he says, he says many
will come to me on that day
00:22:39.71\00:22:42.67
and they'll say, Lord, Lord
00:22:42.70\00:22:43.73
you know didn't
we this and this--
00:22:43.76\00:22:45.38
Or how about
Isaiah 4, where it says,
00:22:45.41\00:22:48.00
"We'll take your name
but we'll eat our own bread
00:22:48.03\00:22:49.97
and we'll wear our own apparel."
00:22:50.00\00:22:51.38
Meaning our own
righteousness not yours,
00:22:51.41\00:22:53.91
and I believe it that
was a real struggle for us.
00:22:53.94\00:22:56.36
Wayne, you have this
saying that you say a lot about,
00:22:56.39\00:23:01.15
you know, do we need a savior?
00:23:01.18\00:23:03.38
You know when people come in
00:23:03.41\00:23:04.83
and they want to
baptize their sin
00:23:04.86\00:23:06.55
or go against God's word.
00:23:06.58\00:23:08.97
Yeah, why do
you need a redeemer?
00:23:09.00\00:23:11.11
You know if you are
going to justify your sin,
00:23:11.14\00:23:14.55
then why do you
need a redeemer for.
00:23:14.58\00:23:16.37
Mike, if I would
have been your pastor,
00:23:16.40\00:23:18.82
when you came into
the church at that time
00:23:18.85\00:23:21.55
I would have hoped
00:23:21.58\00:23:22.69
you know looking back
kind of the ideal situation
00:23:22.72\00:23:25.97
if I would have
been your pastor,
00:23:26.00\00:23:27.04
I would have hoped
that you would have sensed
00:23:27.07\00:23:28.78
enough love in
me and safety in me
00:23:28.81\00:23:30.98
that you could tell me
00:23:31.01\00:23:32.27
what was going on your
life and that if I knew that
00:23:32.30\00:23:35.97
you know I would pray with
you, I put my arm around you.
00:23:36.00\00:23:39.03
But I would gently
postpone your baptism,
00:23:39.06\00:23:42.20
I would--I would post--
00:23:42.23\00:23:43.26
That would have
been unusual, Steve,
00:23:43.29\00:23:44.81
because I think that,
that's what a lot of people
00:23:44.84\00:23:47.65
that struggle with
homosexuality are fearful of
00:23:47.68\00:23:50.40
because they have been rejected.
00:23:50.43\00:23:52.73
One night I was in a gay bar
00:23:52.76\00:23:53.96
and five of us
were talking about
00:23:53.99\00:23:55.76
how we've been
kicked out of church,
00:23:55.79\00:23:56.99
how we've been
treated by the church,
00:23:57.02\00:23:58.61
our parents and so that's--
00:23:58.64\00:24:02.09
And I would hope
that I would be the pastor
00:24:02.12\00:24:04.36
that you wouldn't
feel that way for me,
00:24:04.39\00:24:06.08
that you wouldn't feel rejected
00:24:06.11\00:24:07.61
but that you would
still understand that,
00:24:07.64\00:24:09.71
you know, in Acts
2 Peter verse 38 says
00:24:09.74\00:24:12.40
"Repent and be
baptized" that there are things
00:24:12.43\00:24:15.35
that we do need to
give up and it doesn't mean
00:24:15.38\00:24:17.46
God doesn't love me,
doesn't mean I don't love you,
00:24:17.49\00:24:18.80
doesn't mean the
churches love you,
00:24:18.83\00:24:19.88
doesn't mean we
don't want you here.
00:24:19.91\00:24:20.94
We want you to
keep coming, you know,
00:24:20.97\00:24:22.58
God's working in your life
00:24:22.61\00:24:23.66
but still in
order to be baptized,
00:24:23.69\00:24:26.81
you really do need
some more preparation--
00:24:26.84\00:24:28.65
Well, Steve,
because you went there--
00:24:28.68\00:24:29.71
And that would be my position.
00:24:29.74\00:24:30.96
Because you went there, Steve,
God had to go with plan B.
00:24:30.99\00:24:33.86
And like he said, He takes us
where we are, they didn't know.
00:24:33.89\00:24:36.23
They didn't
know, they didn't know
00:24:36.26\00:24:38.56
but God knew and He
still worked with you.
00:24:38.59\00:24:41.13
Praise God, He
still worked with you.
00:24:41.16\00:24:42.72
He still loved you,
we serve at big God,
00:24:42.75\00:24:45.43
a wonderful God.
00:24:45.46\00:24:46.73
You know, we're
not without warning.
00:24:46.76\00:24:48.79
You know, Paul has given us
a number of warnings that come
00:24:48.82\00:24:52.17
and one is about a new
gospel, a different gospel.
00:24:52.20\00:24:55.61
And that's in
Galatians 3:1 that says,
00:24:55.64\00:24:58.62
"O foolish Galatians,
who hath bewitched you,
00:24:58.65\00:25:02.04
that you should
not obey the truth,
00:25:02.07\00:25:04.61
before whose eyes Jesus
Christ was clearly portrait,
00:25:04.64\00:25:08.75
among you as crucified."
00:25:08.78\00:25:10.31
Yeah, that's right.
00:25:10.34\00:25:11.38
It's a bewitching
based on the Bible
00:25:11.41\00:25:13.64
to believe that you
can, to believe you can be
00:25:13.67\00:25:16.77
an openly practicing
homosexual or lesbian
00:25:16.80\00:25:21.34
and still be a
follower of Jesus Christ
00:25:21.37\00:25:23.12
at the same time to believe
that really is a delusion.
00:25:23.15\00:25:26.71
Right it says, "Whomever
is delivering the message
00:25:26.74\00:25:29.90
that is different
than the original gospel
00:25:29.93\00:25:32.60
may he be cursed."
00:25:32.63\00:25:33.94
That's right.
00:25:33.97\00:25:35.03
But again thank
up, thank the Lord,
00:25:35.06\00:25:36.80
He works with us in our
delusions to get us out.
00:25:36.83\00:25:38.73
That's right. Thank you.
00:25:38.76\00:25:39.79
Praise the Lord. Hallelujah.
00:25:39.82\00:25:41.90
Let me-- we have just a
little bit of time left,
00:25:41.93\00:25:43.93
I want to go to
one more text here.
00:25:43.96\00:25:46.04
The next chapter
from the new creature text
00:25:46.07\00:25:48.06
that you used is
in 2 Corinthians 6:14
00:25:48.09\00:25:56.05
Paul says, "What
fellowship has righteousness
00:25:56.08\00:25:58.91
with unrighteousness?
00:25:58.94\00:25:59.97
What communion has
light with darkness?
00:26:00.00\00:26:03.22
What concord has
Christ with Belial or Satan?
00:26:03.25\00:26:07.45
What agreement has the
temple of God with idols?
00:26:07.48\00:26:10.74
For you are the
temple of the living God,
00:26:10.77\00:26:12.88
as God has said, I
will dwell in them,
00:26:12.91\00:26:14.47
and I will walk in
them, and I will be their God,
00:26:14.50\00:26:16.56
and they will be my people."
00:26:16.59\00:26:18.05
And then verse 17 says,
00:26:18.08\00:26:19.29
"Wherefore come
out from among them,"
00:26:19.32\00:26:21.67
like it says in
Revelation come out of Babylon,
00:26:21.70\00:26:23.87
as your ministry is
all about, come out.
00:26:23.90\00:26:26.05
You come out of this
things. Into marvelous light.
00:26:26.08\00:26:29.44
That's right, come
out from among them
00:26:29.47\00:26:30.69
and be separate says the Lord
00:26:30.72\00:26:32.47
and I will receive you and
I will be a father to you--
00:26:32.50\00:26:37.42
And that's what I was missing.
00:26:37.45\00:26:38.62
And that's what you
needed. That's right.
00:26:38.65\00:26:39.97
"And you will be my
sons and my daughters,"
00:26:40.00\00:26:42.27
says the Lord almighty.
00:26:42.30\00:26:44.10
Wow. This is God's plan.
00:26:44.13\00:26:46.27
The Bible's very
clear that God loves us.
00:26:46.30\00:26:48.13
He takes us where we are
but He doesn't leave us there.
00:26:48.16\00:26:50.94
He purifies us, He
leads us along step by step
00:26:50.97\00:26:53.66
to be a mature and genuine
00:26:53.69\00:26:55.81
and true
followers of Jesus Christ,
00:26:55.84\00:26:58.56
whose mission is to
save people from their sins.
00:26:58.59\00:27:04.24
May God help us
to hear his voice
00:27:04.27\00:27:07.35
to be honest
with our consciences,
00:27:07.38\00:27:09.38
accept the
message of the word of God
00:27:09.41\00:27:12.20
and to come out
from every form of sin
00:27:12.23\00:27:14.92
as we get ready for the
soon return of Jesus Christ.
00:27:14.95\00:27:21.53
If you would like to order
the 13 part Coming Out series
00:27:21.56\00:27:24.32
for $34.95 plus
shipping, call 1-800-782-4253.
00:27:24.35\00:27:29.66
Or write to White
Horse Media, PO Box 1139,
00:27:29.69\00:27:32.52
Newport, Washington, 99156.
00:27:32.55\00:27:35.49
Pastor Ron
Woolsey, Dwayne Blakely
00:27:35.52\00:27:37.17
and Mike Carducci
are each available
00:27:37.20\00:27:38.90
to conduct a
seminar in your area.
00:27:38.93\00:27:41.18
To schedule a
speaking engagement,
00:27:41.21\00:27:42.77
contact Coming Out Ministries
by calling 360-936-8514,
00:27:42.80\00:27:48.05
or visit
comingoutministries.org.
00:27:48.08\00:27:51.05