Homophobia sounds
like a terrible disease.
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What it's all about?
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You'll find out by
watching Coming Out.
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Welcome back to
part six of Coming Out.
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This is a special
series dealing with
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a very big subject, a
controversial subject,
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a hot subject, an
emotional subject.
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We're dealing with gay
issues, lesbian issues,
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homosexuality, the Bible,
and the love of Jesus Christ.
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And I'm here again with
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Wayne Blakely and Mike Carducci,
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who are co-founders of
the Coming Out ministry
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that is really attempting,
with all your hearts and souls,
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to bring
clarity to these issues,
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to deal with them effectively,
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and to try to help people
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who are
struggling with the issues
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that you have struggled
with in your own lives.
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So again I want to thank
you for being part of this.
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It's a blessing
to a lot of people
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to have you here.
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Thank you, Steve.
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I want to start out by reading
from Webster's dictionary.
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It's a big dip, big
book, here big dictionary.
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And under the word "homophobia",
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this is what it says,
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"Homophobia is
an irrational fear
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of homosexuality
or of homosexuals."
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So that's our topic
today, is homophobia.
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Is homophobia, is
it real, is it a myth?
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Is it something
that ever happens?
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Let's just
start with the church.
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Does it ever happen in
the church of Jesus Christ?
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Talk to me, talk to us.
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Yeah, absolutely, I
have to say that it is.
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When I met Jesus
Christ as my savior,
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convicting me
that my life wasn't,
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I wasn't living it
according to His plan.
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I thought the church by now
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probably has a reach
out to gays and homosexuals
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and unfortunately what I found
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when I came back in
was this irrational fear
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and so I was in met with
a great deal of adversity.
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I'm still in met
with the adversity today
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in going and speaking
into church congregations,
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or to get the
invitation or for--
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while it's been
discussed over a church board,
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and there is this fear.
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This fear that's there
and it's multi-faceted,
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which I'm sure we'll find
out as we talk about it here.
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I was very
uncomfortable, it's not right,
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but we have some
responsibility in the process.
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Okay, Mike.
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Well you know, at 20 years
old when I left the church.
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I couldn't find
any resources or anyone
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that I even felt comfortable
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to share this
deep dark secret with.
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And then at 40 years old
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coming back into church culture.
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I still came back,
the Lord was leading me
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and even five years after,
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I was walking
back in church culture,
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I was at a board meeting
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and I was asked to pitch
the idea for men's ministry,
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and one of the
highly esteem doctors
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that were on the board
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in front of the
pastor and the head elder.
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This man looked at me and said,
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I don't want to be running
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around in the woods
like a bunch of gay men.
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And so I realized
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that there still is
homophobia in our church.
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Even after I
professed that I don't even walk
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in that culture anymore.
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So definitely homophobia
in the church is very real.
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And you think that
they are, I'm imagine--
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I'm sure you would agree
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that there are others out there,
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who have probably
had similar experiences.
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Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.
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One example that I recently
had a couple of months ago
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at a presentation that we made.
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This man from the islands,
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the Caribbean
came up and he said,
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you know, in his
Caribbean accent he said,
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you know, down in
where we come from,
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you know homosexuals are beat up
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and they are
kicked out of the church,
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or whatever he said, I realized
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that I had the
wrong attitude about this
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and you know what was amazing
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is this guy was
apologizing to me for the way
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that he had treated other people
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that were in the gay life.
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What do you think is the cause
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of that kind of
attitude that you know--
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I think with out a
doubt it's ignorance,
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you know, in the
denomination that I'm a part of,
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we haven't talked about
this for basically a 150 years.
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And so what happens
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when you leave
something in the dark,
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you know, it
grows like a bacteria
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and not only does it
effect the individual
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who is afflicted and
having the same sex attraction
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but by not talking about it
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it's hardening
the hearts of those
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who should be reaching out
with the love of Jesus Christ.
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Let's look at the Bible.
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Let's look at Luke 15,
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as I've been
thinking about this topic,
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and looking at my
Bible and praying God
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what verse do you want
us to zero in on to just
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shed some light on
this subject homophobia.
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My mind just went to
Luke 15. Luke 15:1 and 2.
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The Bible says,
"Then drew near to Him."
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Referring to
Christ Jesus as the Him.
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They came to
Him, all the publicans
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and those who were
tax collectors really,
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many of them were
Jews, who work for the Romans
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and who were
despised by the Jews,
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by many Jews, not all Jews.
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"The publicans and the
sinners, they came to hear him."
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Meaning Jesus.
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"And then verse two says
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that the Pharisees, and scribes,
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when they saw this they murmured
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and they said, this
man is welcoming sinners."
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Another translation says,
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"This man is receiving sinners
and He's eating with them."
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Amen.
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So here are
these religious people,
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the Pharisees, the scribes,
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you know, they had the scripture
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and they saw Jesus and they saw
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the worst sort of
people, all kinds of people.
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The sinners, open sinners,
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prostitutes, all kinds of people
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and yet they were responding,
and they were coming to Jesus
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and Pharisees looked at
that and they just said,
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yuck, you know,
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how can this Man be the Messiah.
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He's welcoming the sinners
and He's eating with them.
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Right.
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You know I
remember our colleague,
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Ron Woolsey, talked about
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when he was getting counsel
from a Christian counselor
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basically told
his wife at that time
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that you should just leave him
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because that type
can't even changed.
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So homophobia has definitely
not only been in our church
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but there hasn't even
been any redemption available
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to those that struggle with it
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or who are willing
to even come forward
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that they struggle with it.
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Now you know, as I look at this,
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I mean Jesus
wasn't doing the things
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that the people that
were coming to him were doing,
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but He love them
and they felt that,
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and that's why it says
that they drew near to Him,
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they felt even though He
was pure and He was clean,
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He lived a Holy life, a
pure life, yet He was humble
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and He was loving
and He drew them to Him.
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And when they
were coming, you know,
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with praise
God, they were coming
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then the religious
leaders looked at that
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and they just
said, how can He do that?
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You know, how
can He be that way?
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That's right. He's
welcoming these sinners.
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And don't you think
that attitude is sometimes,
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may be too many times
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a problem even
inside His church.
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Yes, yeah.
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You know, when we left
the program just before this,
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we were talking
about how love is,
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does love mean approval?
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And in Jesus ministry He
didn't approve of the sin
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and He didn't condone their sin.
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But by loving
them, with His pure love
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He was trying to draw them,
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He sought to draw
them out of their sin.
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That's right, and
doesn't it make sense
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that the church of Jesus Christ
should reflect His attitude.
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Absolutely. Amen.
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I mean isn't that with
the church is all about.
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Somebody once said, the
biggest room in the world
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is the room for improvement.
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I like that, that stuck
with me for a long time.
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And it sure seems to me
that even in the church,
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maybe especially in the church,
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there is a lot of
room for improvement,
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and I understand
that your ministry
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Coming Out ministries,
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you at some point in the
past came out of the closet
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and went into a gay lifestyle.
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But then you came
out of that lifestyle
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and now you are,
you're Christians,
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you're in the church and you're
trying to help church members--
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Yeah.
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To hopefully not repeat
the some of the same mistakes
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that were repeated against you,
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and you're trying
to help Christians
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to become more like
Jesus in the way they relate
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to those who are
in the gay community.
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Right. Am I
right in saying that?
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Right. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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There were you know, my
first contact with sex came
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from two young Christian men
when I was around 13 years old,
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and that
introduced to me to sex,
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it actually made
me begin to think
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that there wasn't
anything wrong with me
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because we were
engaged together in this,
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and then they went
on and they married,
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and they began to do what
was, what was approved of by,
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you know, by the church, by God,
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and I think that even
today that our problem,
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part of our
problems within the church
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that there are
some past associations
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that people have come in contact
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with various things.
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Often men in their adolescence
are experimentation and stuff,
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but they don't want
to come around the person
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who is seeking Jesus
for fear of the association
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and what that will
make them look like,
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that may be they haven't
even dealt with their own sin,
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and so largely what
our ministry is today
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is to come to church members
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and to people that
weren't reaching out to
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and saying that we are all level
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at the foot of the cross.
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Can I just add? Sure.
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Remember, Wayne, the story where
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this well intentioned
elder in your church came up
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after you gave
your story and said,
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you know, that's
a powerful testimony
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but don't you think you
should keep it to yourself?
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Yeah.
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And so again it was
his fear of the story
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or the dynamics of it being,
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you know, grounded
in this homosexual sin
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but you know, the church--
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We don't talk about it.
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That's right, we
don't talk about it,
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we cover it up, that's
just how we do and apathy,
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I think has been just
as damaging in Christianity
00:11:00.07\00:11:04.44
as much as it has
been hate or homophobia.
00:11:04.47\00:11:06.79
So sometimes the
church really has, has erred.
00:11:06.82\00:11:10.44
Yes. Christians have erred--
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That's true, they think that--
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I think that, you
know, humbling ourselves
00:11:12.66\00:11:15.14
can only be a good
thing, that we really, you know,
00:11:15.17\00:11:18.66
if we have made
mistakes, that we are sorry
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and that we want to do better--
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Right.
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In our attempt to reach out,
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we may not be doing those
tings but we still you know,
00:11:24.75\00:11:27.73
people are people
and we need to reach,
00:11:27.76\00:11:29.43
reach out to them as
Jesus did in the Bible.
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Right, there was a study done
00:11:31.71\00:11:33.22
and they went to secular society
00:11:33.25\00:11:35.00
and they asked them they said,
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who do you think
Jesus Christ was?
00:11:36.14\00:11:38.06
And they said wonderful things
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you know, He's fair,
loving, honest, pure, holy,
00:11:39.73\00:11:43.41
right all these wonderful
accolades and adjectives
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and then they said,
okay well now tell me,
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what you think of
when I say Christian?
00:11:47.95\00:11:50.26
And then they started saying,
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judgmental, angry, unfair, mean,
00:11:51.85\00:11:56.19
you know all these other things
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that Christianity has
that label of because you know,
00:11:57.90\00:12:00.89
we've been so
inclusive in Christianity to,
00:12:00.92\00:12:03.58
you know, to block out anything
00:12:03.61\00:12:05.04
that may be
offensive or uncomfortable
00:12:05.07\00:12:07.66
to the point where
what we've given our society
00:12:07.69\00:12:09.87
is this, is this picture
00:12:09.90\00:12:11.76
that the
Christians aren't like Jesus.
00:12:11.79\00:12:14.76
Yeah, and
sometimes, not all the times,
00:12:14.79\00:12:17.32
but sometimes those
accusations they do have merit,
00:12:17.35\00:12:21.88
now I want to shift gears.
00:12:21.91\00:12:22.97
Okay.
00:12:23.00\00:12:24.89
The word
homophobic or homophobia
00:12:24.92\00:12:27.79
is also often used a lot,
00:12:27.82\00:12:31.39
more than often,
by the gay community,
00:12:31.42\00:12:35.01
and that is a charge
that is leveled at Christians
00:12:35.04\00:12:37.76
and I'm sure that sometimes,
00:12:37.79\00:12:38.83
like we've said,
sometimes it's valid.
00:12:38.86\00:12:40.91
Yes. Is it always valid?
00:12:40.94\00:12:42.43
No. Is it always valid?
00:12:42.46\00:12:43.49
No. No.
00:12:43.52\00:12:45.00
From that
perspective is there room
00:12:45.03\00:12:47.49
for improvement on
the other side as well?
00:12:47.52\00:12:50.38
Yeah, you know there
are been a lot of things,
00:12:50.41\00:12:53.41
there's constantly
things in the news today
00:12:53.44\00:12:55.69
that are sure, you know,
00:12:55.72\00:12:56.75
some one will take a stand
with regards to homosexuality
00:12:56.78\00:13:00.80
and it's not because
they hate homosexuals
00:13:00.83\00:13:03.79
but it's because of
their personal beliefs
00:13:03.82\00:13:05.56
that they are being
threatened, religious believes.
00:13:05.59\00:13:09.10
We look at
equality through gay rights
00:13:09.13\00:13:12.06
but then the very
things sometimes that gay,
00:13:12.09\00:13:16.50
the gay culture is
accusing the church of,
00:13:16.53\00:13:19.28
is happening
from the gay culture
00:13:19.31\00:13:21.41
towards the Christian,
00:13:21.44\00:13:23.46
and so religious rights
today are be coming in question.
00:13:23.49\00:13:26.91
I think that
it's very important,
00:13:26.94\00:13:28.93
you mentioned
something earlier about humility
00:13:28.96\00:13:31.21
and I think that we
need, on both sides here,
00:13:31.24\00:13:35.86
the people within the church,
the members of churches today
00:13:35.89\00:13:40.97
that are looking at God's word
00:13:41.00\00:13:42.55
to be reaching
now with God's love,
00:13:42.58\00:13:45.29
and that love to an individual,
00:13:45.32\00:13:48.54
to a gay person
doesn't have to mean approval
00:13:48.57\00:13:51.73
of what they do,
what they're all about.
00:13:51.76\00:13:55.07
Since it's not in
agreement with God's word,
00:13:55.10\00:13:57.76
it still says
that I can love you
00:13:57.79\00:13:59.61
without
approving of what you're,
00:13:59.64\00:14:02.87
what's your lifestyle is.
00:14:02.90\00:14:04.12
So if a person doesn't have
00:14:04.15\00:14:06.40
an irrational
fear of a homosexual,
00:14:06.43\00:14:10.21
and if he believes in the Bible
and if he points to the Bible,
00:14:10.24\00:14:13.89
and if he shows
what the Bible says
00:14:13.92\00:14:16.66
in a loving way,
in a redemptive way--
00:14:16.69\00:14:19.91
I'm so glad you included
that, Steve, because it's true.
00:14:19.94\00:14:21.80
You know, in a loving
way, in a redemptive way.
00:14:21.83\00:14:23.03
That's right, without the bat.
00:14:23.06\00:14:24.09
Yeah, without
the bat and the club
00:14:24.12\00:14:26.06
and the hammer, and the stick.
00:14:26.09\00:14:28.80
Then that person can
often be accused falsely.
00:14:28.83\00:14:33.45
Yes.
00:14:33.48\00:14:34.52
Of being a homophobic,
00:14:34.55\00:14:35.60
because it seems like
that word is just you know,
00:14:35.63\00:14:37.49
thrown around I
mean the word phobia
00:14:37.52\00:14:39.34
really is an irrational
fear as the dictionary said.
00:14:39.37\00:14:41.04
It's right.
00:14:41.07\00:14:42.11
As someone is
phobic concerning spiders,
00:14:42.14\00:14:44.66
it's an irrational fear
of spiders or enclosed places
00:14:44.69\00:14:48.20
or you know if I
have an irrational fear,
00:14:48.23\00:14:50.62
lets say about
tomatoes or who knows,
00:14:50.65\00:14:52.20
you know walk under a
ladder, being in the dark.
00:14:52.23\00:14:55.18
You know not
everybody who believes the Bible
00:14:55.21\00:14:57.89
and who is taking a
stand on these issues
00:14:57.92\00:15:02.02
as even if they do
it in a really good way,
00:15:02.05\00:15:04.37
you know, they're not,
00:15:04.40\00:15:05.92
that word doesn't,
it's an unjust accusation,
00:15:05.95\00:15:09.22
it's an untrue
accusation to categorize
00:15:09.25\00:15:13.49
all Bible believing
Christians as homophobic.
00:15:13.52\00:15:18.41
Right. Do you agree with that?
00:15:18.44\00:15:19.76
The word itself is
not being used correctly.
00:15:19.79\00:15:22.00
Right. In every incidence.
00:15:22.03\00:15:23.82
But I think what's
largely needed today
00:15:23.85\00:15:26.67
is the education in the church.
00:15:26.70\00:15:29.08
Yes, definitely.
00:15:29.11\00:15:30.25
Now here's a question that I,
00:15:30.28\00:15:31.81
as I've been contemplating this.
00:15:31.84\00:15:33.65
Here's a big question.
00:15:33.68\00:15:36.06
What do true Christians,
and the gay community,
00:15:36.09\00:15:41.33
and Jesus Christ have in common?
00:15:41.36\00:15:46.27
Do Christians, true Christians,
and the gay community,
00:15:46.30\00:15:50.60
and or at least
a large percentage
00:15:50.63\00:15:52.39
of gay
community or a percentage,
00:15:52.42\00:15:54.69
you know only God
knows what percentage is,
00:15:54.72\00:15:57.43
and Jesus, Jesus Himself,
00:15:57.46\00:15:59.84
what do they all have in common?
00:15:59.87\00:16:01.62
One major thing and
we discussed this so--
00:16:01.65\00:16:04.24
We've all been
persecuted. We can--
00:16:04.27\00:16:05.39
Right, right. He
forgets to say it.
00:16:05.42\00:16:06.88
You can spill the
beans. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:06.91\00:16:08.25
You can answer the question.
00:16:08.28\00:16:09.66
Well, there's even
more levels to that,
00:16:09.69\00:16:12.50
you know, because if
we don't believe that,
00:16:12.53\00:16:14.77
if God Himself
established you know,
00:16:14.80\00:16:17.69
the fact that
homosexuality is a sin
00:16:17.72\00:16:19.88
as well as all sexual sin
00:16:19.91\00:16:22.15
then He has to be
the one to show us,
00:16:22.18\00:16:25.12
how to overcome right?
00:16:25.15\00:16:26.77
And so for anyone
that continues in saying
00:16:26.80\00:16:30.20
that Jesus loves
them for who they are,
00:16:30.23\00:16:32.24
if that goes against
the word which we believe,
00:16:32.27\00:16:34.47
we've already
established, you know,
00:16:34.50\00:16:35.95
is God's, you
know-- Owners manual.
00:16:35.98\00:16:38.12
Manual, that's right for us,
00:16:38.15\00:16:39.61
then what would basically saying
00:16:39.64\00:16:40.79
is that Jesus is
impotent, that He is powerless
00:16:40.82\00:16:43.36
and that also is an
insult to Jesus Christ
00:16:43.39\00:16:46.07
and so we have,
we've all been abused
00:16:46.10\00:16:49.22
and we've all been
taken out of context
00:16:49.25\00:16:51.94
and we've all been
mistreated and misunderstood.
00:16:51.97\00:16:55.66
That's right, I mean
Christians, true Christians,
00:16:55.69\00:16:58.65
if you look back
at Bible history,
00:16:58.68\00:17:00.57
the disciples were
all brutally murdered
00:17:00.60\00:17:04.18
except for John,
who they tried to kill
00:17:04.21\00:17:06.40
and eventually banished him
to the island of the Patmos.
00:17:06.43\00:17:08.35
That was pretty--
00:17:08.38\00:17:09.41
And that's why we got
the book of revelation.
00:17:09.44\00:17:10.55
Yeah, they tried to kill him
but they couldn't, they didn't.
00:17:10.58\00:17:11.85
Right.
00:17:11.88\00:17:13.56
And early Christian
history, the true Christians
00:17:13.59\00:17:17.15
were brutally
persecuted by the Roman Empire.
00:17:17.18\00:17:20.92
Go down in the dark ages,
00:17:20.95\00:17:22.37
Christians were continued to be
persecuted even by the church.
00:17:22.40\00:17:26.12
What claimed to be the church,
00:17:26.15\00:17:27.45
the inquisition
and they were murdering
00:17:27.48\00:17:29.41
true Christians,
down through that history,
00:17:29.44\00:17:32.13
you know the
history of China, Russia,
00:17:32.16\00:17:35.09
today in Muslim countries
many Bible believing Christians
00:17:35.12\00:17:39.22
have been cruelly you
know brutally put to death
00:17:39.25\00:17:43.14
and so that's all,
that's real and it's wrong
00:17:43.17\00:17:47.02
and what they have in
common, as I mentioned,
00:17:47.05\00:17:49.70
you know, what
they all have in common,
00:17:49.73\00:17:51.47
sad to say that those who
have chosen a gay lifestyle,
00:17:51.50\00:17:55.96
whether we agree with it or not,
00:17:55.99\00:17:58.11
they don't
deserve some of the things
00:17:58.14\00:18:00.67
that would have come their way.
00:18:00.70\00:18:01.83
A lot of the things
that have come their way,
00:18:01.86\00:18:03.16
I mean people are,
00:18:03.19\00:18:04.31
Jesus wouldn't call them fags.
00:18:04.34\00:18:06.11
No.
00:18:06.14\00:18:07.17
He wouldn't hate
them, there is such a thing,
00:18:07.20\00:18:10.52
there is real and then
there is perceived hate speech,
00:18:10.55\00:18:14.43
but there is real hate speech
and there are real hate crimes.
00:18:14.46\00:18:17.28
Yeah you can't lump it all in.
00:18:17.31\00:18:18.34
That's right, and those
that are in the gay community
00:18:18.37\00:18:21.45
have been
brutalized, many of them.
00:18:21.48\00:18:24.06
Yes, yes.
00:18:24.09\00:18:25.51
Unfairly, as
Christians have been persecuted
00:18:25.54\00:18:28.68
unfairly and ultimately
00:18:28.71\00:18:30.73
that's the common
bond with Jesus Christ
00:18:30.76\00:18:33.02
because Jesus
Himself was, was brutalized,
00:18:33.05\00:18:37.03
He was beaten, He was
whipped, He was rejected,
00:18:37.06\00:18:40.17
He was lifted up on
a cross and He Himself,
00:18:40.20\00:18:43.78
He is the only one
among us that can claim this.
00:18:43.81\00:18:46.24
That's right. But
He was an innocent man.
00:18:46.27\00:18:47.32
Amen.
00:18:47.35\00:18:48.38
Entirely from birth to grave,
00:18:48.41\00:18:50.44
He was innocent and
yet you know He suffered,
00:18:50.47\00:18:53.63
He suffered and I think that we,
00:18:53.66\00:18:55.56
you know, we all need
to have our eyes opened
00:18:55.59\00:18:58.04
to the fact that
cruelty and injustice is wrong
00:18:58.07\00:19:02.93
wherever it
pops up its ugly head
00:19:02.96\00:19:07.29
and who's behind
all of the cruelty
00:19:07.32\00:19:11.30
and inhumanity to man
all through out history,
00:19:11.33\00:19:15.46
who could we put the--
00:19:15.49\00:19:16.76
I know. A finger on?
00:19:16.79\00:19:19.41
I'm not going
to say it. Tell us.
00:19:19.44\00:19:20.51
Yeah I know, no, no,
00:19:20.54\00:19:21.57
I'm not going to
tell, I'm not going to say--
00:19:21.60\00:19:22.63
I want to know.
Okay, you tell us.
00:19:22.66\00:19:23.69
I'm not going to say his
name. I have a good idea.
00:19:23.72\00:19:27.39
What? I believe it's Satan.
00:19:27.42\00:19:30.41
Yes Satan himself. That's right.
00:19:30.44\00:19:32.09
That's right,
it's the devil himself.
00:19:32.12\00:19:33.16
The accuser--
00:19:33.19\00:19:34.35
And he would just as soon
stir-up both sides of the issue
00:19:34.38\00:19:38.22
and so I have a challenge
that I would like to throw out,
00:19:38.25\00:19:42.66
and that is to the church
00:19:42.69\00:19:45.63
and to believers of Jesus Christ
00:19:45.66\00:19:48.09
to apologize to those
who may have been hurt,
00:19:48.12\00:19:53.20
isolated, rejected and
inappropriately ridiculed
00:19:53.23\00:19:59.20
and that would be to
apologize to many, many gays
00:19:59.23\00:20:03.77
that have been
hurt by this issue.
00:20:03.80\00:20:05.48
At the same time
I have a challenge
00:20:05.51\00:20:07.16
to the gay
community and that is,
00:20:07.19\00:20:09.55
is that if you love your
God, if you love who you think,
00:20:09.58\00:20:14.41
you know is God,
Jesus Christ Himself,
00:20:14.44\00:20:17.84
can you come to Jesus,
00:20:17.87\00:20:19.78
and repent of any
known sin you have?
00:20:19.81\00:20:23.01
And come in humility
to the church and say,
00:20:23.04\00:20:26.64
I forgive you and
so let's come together
00:20:26.67\00:20:30.13
and let's study
God's word together
00:20:30.16\00:20:31.86
and lets see what God's plan
00:20:31.89\00:20:33.28
really is by
studying out His word.
00:20:33.31\00:20:35.27
Let's become the
sons and the daughters
00:20:35.30\00:20:37.56
and the family that Jesus Christ
00:20:37.59\00:20:39.53
intended us to be and
search his out together.
00:20:39.56\00:20:42.33
And we want more people,
00:20:42.36\00:20:45.26
we want may be not more
people, we just want people,
00:20:45.29\00:20:47.53
to become true
believers in Jesus.
00:20:47.56\00:20:49.86
Yeah.
00:20:49.89\00:20:50.92
And to give their lives to
Him and to follow the Bible
00:20:50.95\00:20:52.56
and to realize that
He has a better way,
00:20:52.59\00:20:54.49
that He's not responsible
for the persecution--
00:20:54.52\00:20:56.89
Absolutely. And the injustice--
00:20:56.92\00:20:57.96
That's right.
00:20:57.99\00:20:59.02
And the hatred,
and the hostility
00:20:59.05\00:21:00.81
toward anybody.
00:21:00.84\00:21:03.24
As we've talked about,
He doesn't condone sin,
00:21:03.27\00:21:06.71
you know, if we go back
to this verse in Luke 15,
00:21:06.74\00:21:10.29
it says, "Then drew
near to Him all the publicans
00:21:10.32\00:21:12.88
and the sinners for to hear Him,
00:21:12.91\00:21:15.09
and the Pharisees
and the scribes murmured
00:21:15.12\00:21:16.99
and said this man
welcomes sinners."
00:21:17.02\00:21:20.31
Amen. "And He eats with them."
00:21:20.34\00:21:22.17
Now to Jesus, I mean Jesus knew
00:21:22.20\00:21:24.83
what sin was and He
did not participate in sin.
00:21:24.86\00:21:27.68
That's right.
00:21:27.71\00:21:28.75
He didn't yield to
sin, He never sinned.
00:21:28.78\00:21:30.95
But He hung out with sinners
00:21:30.98\00:21:34.03
because He wanted to bring them,
00:21:34.06\00:21:35.94
He wanted to bring them to
God and to His love and in fact,
00:21:35.97\00:21:40.20
the name Jesus
itself in Mathew 121,
00:21:40.23\00:21:44.62
the angel said to Joseph--
00:21:44.65\00:21:47.33
That's right, that's right.
00:21:47.36\00:21:48.39
That you will
call His name Jesus,
00:21:48.42\00:21:51.55
for He shall save His
people from their sins.
00:21:51.58\00:21:55.06
Halleluiah.
00:21:55.09\00:21:56.12
And the name Jesus means savior,
00:21:56.15\00:21:58.38
and it has to do
with savior from sins.
00:21:58.41\00:22:00.58
Yes.
00:22:00.61\00:22:01.65
He came all the way
down here from a Holy Heaven,
00:22:01.68\00:22:03.85
He went to the very
bottom of the ladder
00:22:03.88\00:22:06.63
and He knew why
He came down here,
00:22:06.66\00:22:08.92
it was because of sin.
00:22:08.95\00:22:10.29
Jesus, did not
participated in sin,
00:22:10.32\00:22:11.86
He didn't practiced
sin, He didn't condoled sin,
00:22:11.89\00:22:13.77
He didn't rationalized sin,
He didn't participated in sin,
00:22:13.80\00:22:17.66
but He loved, He loved sinners.
00:22:17.69\00:22:19.80
Yes. And He gave
His life for them.
00:22:19.83\00:22:22.74
Yes. And He
drew them to Himself.
00:22:22.77\00:22:25.58
And that's what
He's all about. Yeah.
00:22:25.61\00:22:27.16
You know, and that's
what we need to be all about.
00:22:27.19\00:22:29.73
I love how our
pastor once told me,
00:22:29.76\00:22:31.32
he said that, that
Jesus took my death,
00:22:31.35\00:22:35.35
the death that I deserved
00:22:35.38\00:22:36.95
so that I could have
the life that He deserved.
00:22:36.98\00:22:38.86
Wow.
00:22:38.89\00:22:39.92
And that was
incredibly humbling for me.
00:22:39.95\00:22:42.93
I could submit
myself to someone like that.
00:22:42.96\00:22:44.95
Yeah.
00:22:44.98\00:22:46.07
And you know I think it's a--
00:22:46.10\00:22:48.01
I know that it is true,
based on my study of the Bible
00:22:48.04\00:22:52.14
when it talks about
sinners, Jesus ate with sinners,
00:22:52.17\00:22:54.42
He loved sinners,
He welcomed sinners,
00:22:54.45\00:22:56.24
He wanted to save sinners,
00:22:56.27\00:22:57.88
but you know just
as we talked about
00:22:57.91\00:22:59.53
the false of the church
00:22:59.56\00:23:00.88
and there is
just false everywhere
00:23:00.91\00:23:02.11
I mean we're a
mixed up human family.
00:23:02.14\00:23:04.50
It's a fallen world.
00:23:04.53\00:23:05.58
That's right,
we're in a fallen world
00:23:05.61\00:23:07.02
and the reality is that
if church members choose
00:23:07.05\00:23:10.61
to hold on to bad attitudes
00:23:10.64\00:23:12.63
and if those
that are doing things
00:23:12.66\00:23:16.12
that they shouldn't be
doing, that are really wrong
00:23:16.15\00:23:19.54
then choose to
hold on to those sins
00:23:19.57\00:23:24.17
then whether it's the
church or those in the church
00:23:24.20\00:23:27.40
or those outside the church,
we're all or would be all of us
00:23:27.43\00:23:32.70
and we've all done
this at some point,
00:23:32.73\00:23:34.23
we are really rejecting the one
00:23:34.26\00:23:38.11
who came here to give
His life for us and Jesus,
00:23:38.14\00:23:43.21
He is the most rejected of all.
00:23:43.24\00:23:45.28
That's right. That's right.
00:23:45.31\00:23:46.34
Being Christians
have been persecuted,
00:23:46.37\00:23:49.35
many in the gay, lesbian,
00:23:49.38\00:23:51.21
transgender community
have been cruelly treated,
00:23:51.24\00:23:55.79
unjustly and there is
no justification for that.
00:23:55.82\00:23:57.91
Right.
00:23:57.94\00:23:58.97
In the heart of
Christ and yet Jesus Himself,
00:23:59.00\00:24:02.65
He is the most
abused of them all
00:24:02.68\00:24:05.99
because He was abused,
00:24:06.02\00:24:07.68
He was
criticized by the Pharisees,
00:24:07.71\00:24:09.75
by the religious people,
00:24:09.78\00:24:10.99
who criticized
Him for loving sinners
00:24:11.02\00:24:14.71
but others you know who have
00:24:14.74\00:24:17.65
or whenever anyone
chooses to hold on to sin
00:24:17.68\00:24:21.01
we're really rejecting
Him as well, aren't we?
00:24:21.04\00:24:24.77
That's right.
00:24:24.80\00:24:25.83
And so He is the
rejected one and that,
00:24:25.86\00:24:27.80
that reminds me,
brings me back to the text
00:24:27.83\00:24:30.31
I want to wind this up with,
which is in the book of Isaiah.
00:24:30.34\00:24:35.02
Isaiah 53 lets just take a
look at a couple of these verses
00:24:35.05\00:24:39.70
and we've got
couple of minutes left.
00:24:39.73\00:24:42.12
Isaiah 53, it's a
prophecy about Jesus Christ,
00:24:42.15\00:24:46.59
this whole
chapter and in verse 3,
00:24:46.62\00:24:50.31
Isaiah 53:3, the Bible says that
00:24:50.34\00:24:53.15
"He is despised
and rejected of men,
00:24:53.18\00:24:57.19
He is a man of sorrows
and acquainted with grief,
00:24:57.22\00:25:00.05
we hid as it were
our faces from Him,
00:25:00.08\00:25:02.37
He was despised,
and we esteemed him not,
00:25:02.40\00:25:06.45
surely He has borne our
grief's and carried our sorrows,
00:25:06.48\00:25:11.62
yet we did esteem Him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted,
00:25:11.65\00:25:15.48
but He was wounded",
and why was He wounded?
00:25:15.51\00:25:17.80
For my transgressions.
00:25:17.83\00:25:18.90
That's right, for
our transgressions,
00:25:18.93\00:25:21.06
and the word "our"
means those in the church,
00:25:21.09\00:25:23.91
those outside the church,
those in the gay community,
00:25:23.94\00:25:26.23
those in the Wiccan community.
00:25:26.26\00:25:28.12
Those in the Muslim community,
those that are atheists,
00:25:28.15\00:25:31.80
all around the world.
00:25:31.83\00:25:33.05
He was wounded for
all of our transgressions.
00:25:33.08\00:25:37.45
He was bruised
for our inequities.
00:25:37.48\00:25:40.94
The chastisement
or the punishment
00:25:40.97\00:25:42.96
of our peace was upon Him
00:25:42.99\00:25:44.68
and with His
stripes we are healed.
00:25:44.71\00:25:46.87
Amen.
00:25:46.90\00:25:47.94
And like it, verse 6,
the next word there is "all".
00:25:47.97\00:25:52.18
Verse 6 says, "All we like sheep
00:25:52.21\00:25:55.51
have gone astray.
00:25:55.54\00:25:57.45
We have turned everyone"
and that's inside the church,
00:25:57.48\00:26:01.21
outside the church,
it's the whole world,
00:26:01.24\00:26:03.37
"every one of us has
turned to his own way
00:26:03.40\00:26:07.77
and the Lord has laid on Him"
00:26:07.80\00:26:12.51
the sin of, how many people?
00:26:12.54\00:26:16.11
All.
00:26:16.14\00:26:17.24
The Bible says
the sin of us all.
00:26:17.27\00:26:21.16
So biblically speaking
we're all in this together.
00:26:21.19\00:26:25.23
That's right.
00:26:25.26\00:26:26.29
We all share a common humanity,
00:26:26.32\00:26:28.02
we're all
fallen, we've all sinned,
00:26:28.05\00:26:30.94
we have broken
God's commandments
00:26:30.97\00:26:32.89
and our sins,
whatever they may be,
00:26:32.92\00:26:36.59
on what ever side
of the fence we're on,
00:26:36.62\00:26:38.53
all of our sins have
been placed upon Jesus Christ
00:26:38.56\00:26:41.80
and He suffered for those sins
00:26:41.83\00:26:44.13
and He agonized for those sins
00:26:44.16\00:26:46.22
and He died on a
cruel cross for those sins
00:26:46.25\00:26:49.84
as the rejected
one and yet praise God,
00:26:49.87\00:26:53.05
after He paid that
price He rose from the dead.
00:26:53.08\00:26:56.73
Amen.
00:26:56.76\00:26:57.82
And we want to offer Him to you
00:26:57.85\00:27:01.05
and that's what
this is all about,
00:27:01.08\00:27:02.13
that's what we're about,
00:27:02.16\00:27:03.22
it's lifting up
Jesus, offering you His love,
00:27:03.25\00:27:05.47
His grace, His
forgiveness and His power.
00:27:05.50\00:27:08.09
Whoever you are,
whatever you've done?
00:27:08.12\00:27:10.47
The one that you
need is Him, Jesus Christ.
00:27:10.50\00:27:13.94
Amen.
00:27:13.97\00:27:15.03
So stick with us we've got more
00:27:15.06\00:27:17.07
to come on Coming Out.
00:27:17.10\00:27:20.52
If you would like to order
the 13 part Coming Out series
00:27:20.55\00:27:23.42
for $34.95 plus
shipping, call 1-800-782-4253,
00:27:23.45\00:27:28.60
or write to White
Horse Media, PO Box 1139,
00:27:28.63\00:27:31.58
Newport, Washington, 99156.
00:27:31.61\00:27:34.35
Pastor Ron
Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
00:27:34.38\00:27:36.29
and Mike Carducci
are each available
00:27:36.32\00:27:37.99
to conduct a
seminar in your area.
00:27:38.02\00:27:40.17
To schedule a
speaking engagement,
00:27:40.20\00:27:41.90
contact Coming Out Ministries
00:27:41.93\00:27:43.42
by calling 360-936-8514,
00:27:43.45\00:27:47.17
or visit
comingoutministries.org.
00:27:47.20\00:27:49.49