Homosexuality and the
Bible, are they compatible?
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Next on Coming Out.
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Welcome once
again to Coming Out.
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This is a special
television series, 13 parts,
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produced by White Horse Media
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dealing with
controversial issues,
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dealing with
sexuality, homosexuality,
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lesbianism and the Bible.
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I'm here again with
two of the three cofounders
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and maybe there
were more cofounders,
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I'm not sure of
Coming Out Ministries
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Pastor Ron
Woolsey, Mike Carducci.
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Again thank you for being here.
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In the first couple programs
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we basically
listened to your stories,
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we heard your testimonies
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of how you came
out of the closet,
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you chose to go into an
openly homosexual lifestyle
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but then you came
out of that lifestyle
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and from what I understand
one of the key catalysts
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to that transition was
the book, it was the Bible.
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And our topic today is
called the "Owner's Manual"
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where we will be
discussing God's book.
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Is the Bible, is it a manual
and is it an owner's manual
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and before we even look at that,
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you know, how important
is an owner's manual anyway?
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Like to someone who owns a car,
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is it important
that we have one?
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That we read it?
That we follow it?
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Most people don't read it anyway
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but what do you think?
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Oh, yeah.
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I probably wouldn't have
blown the engine of my car
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when I was 23, 24
if I'd have read it.
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So you had a mishap?
Yeah, I didn't check the oil.
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You didn't check the oil? Right.
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And it was a
costly mishap, wasn't it?
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Yeah.
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I have two cars down right now,
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probably would not
have been in their condition
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had I really
studied the owner's manual.
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Yeah.
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I mean, most people
don't read owner's manuals,
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and I guess that's probably
the way it is with the Bible.
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Most people really
don't read the Bible
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but, you know,
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the owner's
manual is very important
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at least the principles
are even if you don't read it.
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The principle is that if it says
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your car is
designed for unleaded gas
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that you don't put diesel in
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and there's
other issues as well,
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you mentioned the oil
and the water and the gas.
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Everything has to be
done in the right proportions.
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That's right if you,
we're told to use oil,
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water and gas in our vehicles
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and if we put
gasoline in the crank case
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and water in the fuel tank
and you know, mix those up,
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we're using all of
the right components
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and all of the right ingredients
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but if we're not
following that manual
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we'll destroy that vehicle.
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And you've already
learnt that with your car.
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One of your cars. Oh, yeah.
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Now let's go to the Bible.
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What does the
Bible say about the owner
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and about how this is a manual,
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so I think you have
a couple of scriptures,
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Bible verses you
like to share, Mike.
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Genesis 1:1, it says
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"In the beginning God created
the heaven and the earth."
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And so God there
is the very author
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of the owner's manual
and then Genesis 1:27 says,
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in the beginning God created
the heaven and the earth.
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"So God created
man in his own image,
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in the image of
God created he him,
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male and female
created he them."
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You know, this really strikes me
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when I had the gender dysphoria.
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It wasn't until I was in my 40s
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that God showed me, I
was constantly praying
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that God would make me a female
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and really what He
spoke to me in my 40s,
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long after that
issue had passed is that
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God said "no, I
didn't make a mistake, Mike.
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I made you male,
and because of that
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I had trouble all my adult life,
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until just recently even
considering myself a man,
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I got it that I was
male but even recognizing
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that God has been affirming
that masculinity for me
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since I have been walking
with Him for the past 13 years
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and isn't that
amazing to be in your 50s
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and finally realize
that indeed I am a man.
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What is dysphoria?
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You mentioned that
word, you lost me on that.
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That's the gender confusion.
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I wanted to be a girl,
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I thought that God
had made a mistake,
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I prayed that God
would make me a girl
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and it wasn't
until probably I was 47
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and chopping
wood in my front yard
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and God was just
affirming and saying no, Mike,
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I never made a mistake,
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you were always
intended to be a male
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and that even
before the earth was formed
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God knew me and
He knew me as a male.
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And as He washed that over
me I realized that my confusion,
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a little kid didn't know
that that God had made a mistake
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with that, you know, he was
a girl trapped in a boy's body.
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But that God
showed me through His word
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and through relationship
that God didn't make mistakes
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and that there was a
twisting in this rope,
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these knots that
have been knotted up
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and as He started
to untangle these knots
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in my walk with
Him, I realized indeed
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that I was
intended to be a male.
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And the verse you
read the first verse says
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in the beginning
God, so that establishes
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that it all started a
long time ago with God,
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He's the one that set
this up and Pastor Ron,
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I think you have a
verse that talks about
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not only how God, is the owner
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but He has a book
which is His manual.
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Yes, I really like the--
this subject in this concept
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that the Word of
God is His manual,
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because He not only created us
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He gave us instruction
on how to maintain our lives
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to be healthy and joyful
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and productive and
have fulfilling lives.
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And this text is
just an anchor text for me
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because it helps me understand
why certain things cross me
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and conflict with
me in my fallen nature.
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First, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
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"All scripture is given
by the inspiration of God"
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who is our Creator, the owner
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"and is profitable
for doctrine for reproof,
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for correction, for
instruction in righteousness."
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It goes onto say "That
the man of God may be perfect,
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thoroughly furnished
unto all good works."
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Since so God's plan is
that we will follow His word
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to maintain what He created us
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to be in the first
place and as I read this
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I see that if I
studied the Word of God,
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and I do not accept reproof,
and I do not accept correction,
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I really cannot
call myself a Christian
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because that's
the whole purpose.
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The Word of God is
to keep me on track
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because in my humanity I
will automatically deviate
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and derail and
it's the Word of God
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through reproof and
correction and instruction
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that informs us
and keeps us on track.
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And it is God's book, it
says that it is God's book,
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it says that all scripture,
which will be Old Testament
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and New Testament is
given by inspiration of God.
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This is God's book
for those different things
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and I heard somebody once say,
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that God gave us the
Bible to teach us doctrine
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which is what's
right to give us correction
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to show us where we maybe wrong
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and then to or to reprove us,
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He gives us for
doctoring what's right reproof
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where we maybe wrong,
correction help us to get right
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and then
instruction in righteousness
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helps us to stay
right once we get right.
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So it's really, it's
complete. It's complete.
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Okay, so establishing
that based on the book and we,
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we just are not
ashamed to publicly say
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that we believe these words,
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we believe in this
book that God is the owner
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this is His manual
and His book tells us
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what's best for us just like
the owner's manual of a car,
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tells us what kind of
gasoline to put in the engine.
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So let's go-- let's go
back we're in the gas tank.
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Let's go back to the beginning
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and establish what
does the Bible say,
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the owner's
manual say about male,
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female marriage,
what's the original plan?
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And I think you read
a verse a little bit ago
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can you read that again.
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Yes. Genesis 2:24.
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"Therefore shall a man
leave his father and his mother,
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and shall cleave unto his wife,
and they shall be one flesh."
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Okay, and you previously
also read chapter 1 verse 27,
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that says that God
made man in his own image,
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and in his image he
made male and he made female
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and that verse
2:24 describes the plan
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for a male and a female.
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Right it says a man
will leave his father,
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there's the male father,
and his mother the female
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and then he will then cleave
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or be united to his wife
and the two will become one
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and that's
called marriage right.
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Well, not only that it
also establishes the family,
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we'll leave the
father and the mother,
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establishing that
that's the family.
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Good, yeah parents and children.
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Now, is that verse
relevant for us today?
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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It was written I don't know
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how many thousands of years ago,
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Moses wrote that, is
it relevant for our time?
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It speaks to me more
even at this very moment
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just the significance of leaving
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the father and the mother
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it's already established
what the proper family is,
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there's a
statistic that says that now
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that there are more
single mothers raising children
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that can never be reversed.
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And so there are so many
homes that are fatherless,
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it makes sense that
people are having confusion
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and a lot more
trauma and difficulty
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in finding out their ways.
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Because little
girls need a father to be,
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you know, protected
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and to be told
they are princesses
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and little boys need
a father to understand
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how to form masculinity
and how to establish that.
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And so now because we have
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so few of fathers in the home
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as well as even
in Christian society,
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you know, the men
that are struggling
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or that are outside the home
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I think that it's
created a lot of problems
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in out society today.
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I'm sure, Pastor Ron,
you believe that as well.
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Yes, and what
we're reading in Genesis
00:11:06.88\00:11:09.24
of course is God's original
plan in a perfect world,
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a perfect environment
and it was not His plan
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that we should
ever deviate from that.
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And so today,
especially as we are Christians,
00:11:17.44\00:11:21.56
we should be
looking at His original plan
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because the whole plan of
salvation is to restore us
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to what He created us
to be in the first place.
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So Christians should
focus a lot on Genesis
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the first few
chapters of Genesis to see
00:11:35.70\00:11:38.62
how we can accept,
reprove, correction
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and instruction
to come back to what
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the plan was in
Eden in the beginning.
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Right, okay. Powerful.
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Now, we need to look at
the tough texts where this,
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you know what this
whole series is about.
00:11:52.34\00:11:54.21
And there are-- now
that we've read the plan,
00:11:54.24\00:11:57.05
what about other verses
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that describe
deviation from that plan,
00:11:59.54\00:12:01.93
let's look at
probably two of the most
00:12:01.96\00:12:03.80
controversial texts of all.
00:12:03.83\00:12:06.19
One of them is in Leviticus,
00:12:06.22\00:12:08.35
and one of them is in
Romans, one in the old,
00:12:08.38\00:12:10.93
one in the new in
the owner's manual.
00:12:10.96\00:12:13.85
So let's just look at them
00:12:13.88\00:12:15.97
and then I want
you to talk about them
00:12:16.00\00:12:17.26
and share your
opinions and then we'll just,
00:12:17.29\00:12:20.37
you know, look at the facts.
00:12:20.40\00:12:22.41
Well, you know, one of
the big arguments today
00:12:22.44\00:12:27.13
from the pro gay
community and pro gay Christians
00:12:27.16\00:12:33.15
is this thing
about gay monogamy.
00:12:33.18\00:12:36.13
Surely God can
approve of gay monogamy,
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it's the, the
flagrant abuse of sexuality,
00:12:40.19\00:12:46.66
the promiscuity that is wrong
00:12:46.69\00:12:50.34
but yet gay monogamy
should be okay, well--
00:12:50.37\00:12:54.43
Isn't it the idea that
like we have male and female
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in the beginning that the idea
00:12:56.61\00:12:58.47
now is that you can
still have a male and a male,
00:12:58.50\00:13:01.15
and a female and a female
00:13:01.18\00:13:02.46
as long as they love each other
as long as they're committed
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and as long as
they're monogamous
00:13:06.69\00:13:08.66
and they're
faithful to their partner,
00:13:08.69\00:13:09.82
right, that's the idea.
00:13:09.85\00:13:12.21
And of course, having been there
00:13:12.24\00:13:14.44
I mean, we have difficulty
recalling any relationships
00:13:14.47\00:13:19.47
that we've ever
known that were monogamous.
00:13:19.50\00:13:22.59
It's almost like the
straw man or something
00:13:22.62\00:13:25.87
it's hard to
believe that really exists,
00:13:25.90\00:13:29.25
but perhaps it does
but even if it does,
00:13:29.28\00:13:31.37
does that make you right?
00:13:31.40\00:13:32.44
How does God feel,
how does He view it?
00:13:32.47\00:13:34.93
And in Leviticus
20:13, he really spells it out
00:13:34.96\00:13:39.69
in no uncertain terms He says,
00:13:39.72\00:13:42.08
"If a man also lie with mankind,
00:13:42.11\00:13:45.61
as he lieth with a
woman," and that would be
00:13:45.64\00:13:48.79
a man and a
man, that's monogamy,
00:13:48.82\00:13:52.59
" If a man also
lie with mankind,
00:13:52.62\00:13:54.57
as he lieth with a woman,
both" so that's two of them,
00:13:54.60\00:13:57.79
" both of them have
committed an abomination."
00:13:57.82\00:14:00.16
It states very clearly to me
00:14:00.19\00:14:03.15
that gay
monogamy is abomination.
00:14:03.18\00:14:05.91
If gay monogamy exists
even then it's abomination,
00:14:05.94\00:14:11.07
it is outside of God's plan.
00:14:11.10\00:14:13.03
So some say that this text
00:14:13.06\00:14:14.54
is not applying to
faithful homosexuality
00:14:14.57\00:14:18.28
it's just
applying to aberration,
00:14:18.31\00:14:22.00
where they're not
faithful or it's not consensual
00:14:22.03\00:14:25.05
or whatever
argument is being used
00:14:25.08\00:14:27.05
but you're saying that that's
really not what the text says.
00:14:27.08\00:14:29.60
Well, if you look
at the owner's manual
00:14:29.63\00:14:31.88
and read it the way it reads.
00:14:31.91\00:14:35.81
It's so
succinct, it is so clear.
00:14:35.84\00:14:39.16
It's hard to, I mean
you really have to wrestle
00:14:39.19\00:14:43.01
with the scriptures to make it
mean anything other than that.
00:14:43.04\00:14:45.95
If a man also lie with
mankind as with a woman,
00:14:45.98\00:14:50.37
that seems to cover monogamy,
00:14:50.40\00:14:53.13
both of them that means both men
00:14:53.16\00:14:55.66
that's monogamy both of them
have committed an abomination.
00:14:55.69\00:15:00.47
And so there
again we have to say,
00:15:00.50\00:15:04.09
you know, or ask the question,
do I accept the owner's manual?
00:15:04.12\00:15:07.91
Do I accept God's
word or am I going
00:15:07.94\00:15:10.77
to try to rationalize it away?
00:15:10.80\00:15:12.71
Now what is an abomination?
What does that word mean?
00:15:12.74\00:15:16.04
To me it's really just sin
because you know in my book
00:15:16.07\00:15:18.84
I went through the Bible
00:15:18.87\00:15:19.90
and I listed
all the abominations
00:15:19.93\00:15:21.55
I could find in the Bible
00:15:21.58\00:15:23.03
put them all together
in one paragraph it really,
00:15:23.06\00:15:26.29
it didn't make me feel
better about homosexuality
00:15:26.32\00:15:29.18
it made me feel
better about salvation
00:15:29.21\00:15:31.73
because you look at all of those
00:15:31.76\00:15:34.01
that are listed as abominations
00:15:34.04\00:15:35.48
and it just really
boils down to sin, but--
00:15:35.51\00:15:38.51
And there are other, to be fair
00:15:38.54\00:15:40.20
there are other abominations,
everybody talks about
00:15:40.23\00:15:43.38
these six things
are an abomination
00:15:43.41\00:15:45.53
or the Lord hates seven
abominations and it lists--
00:15:45.56\00:15:48.64
Gossip is one of them.
00:15:48.67\00:15:50.25
Proud heart, you know,
hearty look, so it's not just--
00:15:50.28\00:15:53.60
Adultery. Okay.
00:15:53.63\00:15:54.68
Hearing is abomination.
00:15:54.71\00:15:56.31
Well and this
verse isn't specific
00:15:56.34\00:15:58.96
whether it's an
adulterous relationship
00:15:58.99\00:16:00.92
or a committed
sanctioned relationship
00:16:00.95\00:16:03.67
and so in it's vagueness,
00:16:03.70\00:16:05.22
God would make
Himself clear wouldn't He?
00:16:05.25\00:16:07.71
And so maybe in
that general term
00:16:07.74\00:16:09.58
He's saying all of it.
00:16:09.61\00:16:11.25
It's the act itself. And
it's really not that vague.
00:16:11.28\00:16:14.17
He's not specific
because He's being inclusive
00:16:14.20\00:16:16.70
that all of it is not.
00:16:16.73\00:16:18.04
He's just dealing
with the act itself,
00:16:18.07\00:16:20.29
He's not dealing with
the person's commitment
00:16:20.32\00:16:22.02
or promiscuity or faithfulness
or lack of faithfulness.
00:16:22.05\00:16:25.37
He's dealing simply
with the act itself.
00:16:25.40\00:16:27.72
Now, Mike, you
have Romans Chapter 1
00:16:27.75\00:16:31.26
this is the Old Testament
00:16:31.29\00:16:33.02
we have a counter
part in the New Testament
00:16:33.05\00:16:35.59
that pretty much
says the same thing.
00:16:35.62\00:16:37.57
So why don't you read that verse
00:16:37.60\00:16:39.84
on your tablet there, and
let us know what is there.
00:16:39.87\00:16:42.33
Okay.
00:16:42.36\00:16:43.39
"Who changed the
truth of God into a lie,
00:16:43.42\00:16:46.38
and worshipped and
served the creature
00:16:46.41\00:16:48.35
more than the Creator,
who is blessed for ever.
00:16:48.38\00:16:51.39
For this cause God gave
them up unto vile affections
00:16:51.42\00:16:54.46
for even their women did
change the natural use into that
00:16:54.49\00:16:57.42
which is against nature
and likewise also the men,
00:16:57.45\00:17:00.92
leaving the
natural use of the woman,
00:17:00.95\00:17:02.92
burned in their
lust one toward another;
00:17:02.95\00:17:05.15
men with men working
that which is unseemly,
00:17:05.18\00:17:07.85
and receiving in
themselves that recompence
00:17:07.88\00:17:10.00
of their error which was meet."
00:17:10.03\00:17:12.34
Okay, do you see
this as a parallel
00:17:12.37\00:17:14.16
to the verse in Leviticus?
00:17:14.19\00:17:15.71
Yeah, and you know what
00:17:15.74\00:17:17.41
when this scripture
really came to my mind
00:17:17.44\00:17:20.41
I really kind
of detached from it
00:17:20.44\00:17:22.26
somewhat because I didn't have
00:17:22.29\00:17:25.74
any natural affection
for the opposite sex at all,
00:17:25.77\00:17:29.27
and from the earliest
time I could remember,
00:17:29.30\00:17:31.22
I remember having those
attraction to the same sex.
00:17:31.25\00:17:35.56
And so when I
came out into gay life,
00:17:35.59\00:17:38.45
I wasn't seeking
for sex with men,
00:17:38.48\00:17:41.04
I was seeking for
intimacy with men,
00:17:41.07\00:17:43.77
that was the void
that was in my life.
00:17:43.80\00:17:45.51
And so what I found was that
00:17:45.54\00:17:46.72
I had to actually
engage in homosexual sex
00:17:46.75\00:17:49.62
to get the
affection and the intimacy
00:17:49.65\00:17:51.50
that I was seeking
for and what happened is
00:17:51.53\00:17:53.71
I became derailed and I believe
00:17:53.74\00:17:55.67
the fulfillment
of this verse is that
00:17:55.70\00:17:57.53
then my sexual
addiction started to promote
00:17:57.56\00:18:00.35
because then I
became more obsessed
00:18:00.38\00:18:02.12
with the sexual act
rather than the intimacy
00:18:02.15\00:18:04.54
which was what I
was seeking initially.
00:18:04.57\00:18:06.60
And so it didn't
take the enemy long
00:18:06.63\00:18:09.30
to derail me into thinking
00:18:09.33\00:18:11.08
what I was actually
seeking for was the intimacy
00:18:11.11\00:18:13.52
and which turned
into a sexual addiction
00:18:13.55\00:18:15.52
which drove that even more
00:18:15.55\00:18:17.03
because even less was
I getting the fulfillment
00:18:17.06\00:18:19.81
of the intimacy
that I was desperate for.
00:18:19.84\00:18:22.55
As I look at this
verse too, I know there are,
00:18:22.58\00:18:25.08
you know, there's different ways
00:18:25.11\00:18:26.14
people can relate to this verses
00:18:26.17\00:18:27.50
there's the, you
can just reject them,
00:18:27.53\00:18:29.66
we can try to revise
them or we can accept them
00:18:29.69\00:18:32.84
or we can accept
them and just reject them
00:18:32.87\00:18:35.17
because we don't
want to follow them.
00:18:35.20\00:18:36.61
But as I look at the text,
00:18:36.64\00:18:38.08
verse 25 talks about the Creator
00:18:38.11\00:18:40.41
which is the
owner and it takes us
00:18:40.44\00:18:42.43
back to Genesis
showing God's original plan
00:18:42.46\00:18:45.44
and then verse 26 talks
about women changing that plan
00:18:45.47\00:18:51.02
and going against nature
00:18:51.05\00:18:53.93
and then verse
27 talks about men,
00:18:53.96\00:18:56.22
leaving the
natural use of the women
00:18:56.25\00:18:58.44
burning in their
lust one toward another,
00:18:58.47\00:19:01.03
men with men,
00:19:01.06\00:19:02.33
so it's a perfect
parallel to Leviticus
00:19:02.36\00:19:05.63
and it's talking about
the original plan the Creator
00:19:05.66\00:19:08.65
and then the
deviation from that plan and,
00:19:08.68\00:19:13.17
I know this is a tough
text and I've heard I think,
00:19:13.20\00:19:16.62
Mike, you shared with me
that there's a gay Bible,
00:19:16.65\00:19:20.10
many in the gay community
00:19:20.13\00:19:22.55
they don't
believe that these verses,
00:19:22.58\00:19:25.48
really just should be there.
00:19:25.51\00:19:27.48
So they've
created their own Bible
00:19:27.51\00:19:30.02
and in their Bible
these verses are not there.
00:19:30.05\00:19:32.71
Is that correct?
00:19:32.74\00:19:33.77
Right, so this thing that
I was looking at last night
00:19:33.80\00:19:36.29
it was a statement that
said if the Bible doesn't speak
00:19:36.32\00:19:38.95
against homosexuality
like the liberals say
00:19:38.98\00:19:41.45
then why does
the gay Bible created
00:19:41.48\00:19:43.98
removing all the
references to homosexuality.
00:19:44.01\00:19:46.53
So if they've
taken out the verses
00:19:46.56\00:19:48.70
that they say are innocuous
00:19:48.73\00:19:50.24
and you know they
don't meet anything
00:19:50.27\00:19:52.39
then what would be the purpose
00:19:52.42\00:19:53.59
of taking them out
in the first place?
00:19:53.62\00:19:55.70
You know my boyfriend
admitted that he found that
00:19:55.73\00:19:59.43
I've been baptized
into a Christian church.
00:19:59.46\00:20:01.72
He dragged me to the gay church
00:20:01.75\00:20:03.62
and we spoke to the priest then
00:20:03.65\00:20:04.91
and she went over all the verses
00:20:04.94\00:20:06.53
in the Old and the New Testament
00:20:06.56\00:20:08.26
and gave me her
understanding of that
00:20:08.29\00:20:10.67
again I was
desperate to keep my boyfriend.
00:20:10.70\00:20:12.51
I had no intention of letting go
00:20:12.54\00:20:14.66
of not only my identity
00:20:14.69\00:20:15.94
but also my
boyfriend but you know,
00:20:15.97\00:20:17.82
even as she
spoke, it's like I was,
00:20:17.85\00:20:21.73
I was following Jesus Christ.
00:20:21.76\00:20:23.10
All I knew was that He loved me
00:20:23.13\00:20:24.39
for who I was and as she spoke
00:20:24.42\00:20:26.33
it's like the Holy
Spirit just reasoned with me
00:20:26.36\00:20:28.82
and I could realize
that, that didn't make sense
00:20:28.85\00:20:31.10
what she was saying.
00:20:31.13\00:20:32.16
I wanted to believe her
00:20:32.19\00:20:33.86
and I truly wanted
to keep my boyfriend
00:20:33.89\00:20:35.47
but I walked away realizing
that now that's not clear
00:20:35.50\00:20:38.80
and that doesn't even make sense
00:20:38.83\00:20:40.82
even though I
still was you know,
00:20:40.85\00:20:42.58
in a relationship
with my boyfriend.
00:20:42.61\00:20:44.16
So you were exposed at that time
00:20:44.19\00:20:45.82
to the revisionist
interpretation of those texts,
00:20:45.85\00:20:49.09
and you just
really you're conscience
00:20:49.12\00:20:51.23
just told you I
just don't buy it.
00:20:51.26\00:20:53.83
But it created
more confusion, Steve.
00:20:53.86\00:20:55.86
Sure, I can understand I mean
00:20:55.89\00:20:56.96
if you're in a gay relationship
00:20:56.99\00:20:58.48
and then you read a
verse like that what do I do?
00:20:58.51\00:21:01.48
Well, then I
started to get angry at God
00:21:01.51\00:21:04.32
and I said how
dare You made me gay
00:21:04.35\00:21:06.55
and then tell me
I'm an abomination.
00:21:06.58\00:21:08.83
And I remember crying out
and saying that's not fair
00:21:08.86\00:21:11.50
but in my naivety not
knowing what the scriptures
00:21:11.53\00:21:16.06
and I knew they
condemn homosexuality
00:21:16.09\00:21:18.74
but I also bought into the
lie that God made me that way.
00:21:18.77\00:21:21.64
But as I continued
to pursue and demand
00:21:21.67\00:21:24.22
that He give those answers
00:21:24.25\00:21:26.27
and I think that
God can handle that
00:21:26.30\00:21:28.29
because it was
desperation to hang on
00:21:28.32\00:21:30.10
to Jesus Christ and my boyfriend
00:21:30.13\00:21:31.98
but the Lord slowly
started to reveal to me
00:21:32.01\00:21:34.07
that He had
something beyond anything
00:21:34.10\00:21:36.07
that I could even
imagine available for me
00:21:36.10\00:21:38.58
and as I continue to pursue Him,
00:21:38.61\00:21:40.12
He brought me
answers to those questions.
00:21:40.15\00:21:41.94
So your
confusion finally went away
00:21:41.97\00:21:43.53
and you gave up the boyfriend
and you stuck with the manual?
00:21:43.56\00:21:47.07
No I told the Lord
00:21:47.10\00:21:48.37
that if He wanted me
out of that relationship
00:21:48.40\00:21:50.35
He was going to
have to do it Himself
00:21:50.38\00:21:51.76
and that I was
gonna dig in my heels
00:21:51.79\00:21:53.11
and prove to Him
that I can be monogamous
00:21:53.14\00:21:55.24
and what was amazing is I said
00:21:55.27\00:21:56.75
if You want me
out You have to do it.
00:21:56.78\00:21:58.26
So he got you out.
00:21:58.29\00:21:59.33
He went right to it. Yeah.
00:21:59.36\00:22:00.51
Pastor Ron, you
mentioned there's a--
00:22:00.54\00:22:02.42
how did you respond
to these tough texts
00:22:02.45\00:22:04.94
when you were
living the gay lifestyle?
00:22:04.97\00:22:06.93
When I fell into the gay life,
00:22:06.96\00:22:11.11
I actually had a
degree in theology,
00:22:11.14\00:22:12.79
I had recently graduated
with a degree in theology
00:22:12.82\00:22:16.62
on my way to medical school,
00:22:16.65\00:22:19.40
I planned to be a
medical missionary,
00:22:19.43\00:22:21.90
but to me the Bible was clear.
00:22:21.93\00:22:25.81
I just didn't have
00:22:25.84\00:22:26.87
an understanding
about my salvation
00:22:26.90\00:22:29.26
and I didn't
reject the Word of God,
00:22:29.29\00:22:31.56
I rejected God himself.
00:22:31.59\00:22:35.97
I just separated from the church
00:22:36.00\00:22:38.79
from Christianity
because in my mind,
00:22:38.82\00:22:42.41
I knew what the Bible said,
00:22:42.44\00:22:44.42
I didn't try to
rationalize it away,
00:22:44.45\00:22:47.07
I didn't try to reinterpret,
00:22:47.10\00:22:49.80
I just looked at it
and said I can't do this.
00:22:49.83\00:22:53.42
I mean, this is
who I am, I don't know
00:22:53.45\00:22:55.60
where I fit into all of this,
00:22:55.63\00:22:57.41
I didn't know
why I was struggling
00:22:57.44\00:22:59.75
with all of this all my life,
I didn't know why I was gay,
00:22:59.78\00:23:03.57
but I became a
bit angry with God
00:23:03.60\00:23:06.32
because the Bible was telling me
00:23:06.35\00:23:08.33
that I needed to be like Jesus,
00:23:08.36\00:23:10.52
but Jesus was not like me.
00:23:10.55\00:23:12.25
In other words I
thought of Him as God and yes,
00:23:12.28\00:23:14.87
He could follow the law of God
00:23:14.90\00:23:17.09
because He was God
00:23:17.12\00:23:18.29
and He had an advantage over me
00:23:18.32\00:23:19.68
and I became angry with Him
00:23:19.71\00:23:21.49
because He expected me
to live up to His standard
00:23:21.52\00:23:24.79
and it was impossible.
00:23:24.82\00:23:26.58
So I just went
into the world bitter
00:23:26.61\00:23:28.61
and angry against God
never questioning His word,
00:23:28.64\00:23:32.29
but just accepting
that I could not measure up.
00:23:32.32\00:23:36.08
And so you believe
that some people revise it,
00:23:36.11\00:23:37.98
some people take them
out, others believe them
00:23:38.01\00:23:40.85
but just don't
want to follow them
00:23:40.88\00:23:42.43
or feel like they can't,
00:23:42.46\00:23:43.53
feel like they can't
follow them like in your case
00:23:43.56\00:23:45.49
and then you just
got angry with God--
00:23:45.52\00:23:47.01
But I knew that if I
ever found the answers,
00:23:47.04\00:23:51.61
that I'd be back where I started
00:23:51.64\00:23:53.36
that I'd be back
in the same church,
00:23:53.39\00:23:55.78
you know, the same denomination,
00:23:55.81\00:23:57.54
I'd go forward from there, I
didn't fault the Word of God,
00:23:57.57\00:24:02.02
I just didn't understand
where I'd fit in and I gave up.
00:24:02.05\00:24:05.31
And so to make
a long story short
00:24:05.34\00:24:06.95
we only have a few more minutes.
00:24:06.98\00:24:09.06
At some point you both realized
that even though you were doing
00:24:09.09\00:24:13.97
what the Bible said was wrong
00:24:14.00\00:24:16.83
that there still
was a God who loved you,
00:24:16.86\00:24:19.35
that even though
He pointed out sin
00:24:19.38\00:24:22.26
and that you're
departed from the plan,
00:24:22.29\00:24:24.86
He still loved you
enough to do something
00:24:24.89\00:24:28.65
major for you to
give His son for you,
00:24:28.68\00:24:31.12
so He could bring
you back to the plan.
00:24:31.15\00:24:33.15
And we had to
just come to the point
00:24:33.18\00:24:35.57
where we accepted
the word as it read,
00:24:35.60\00:24:38.53
trusted that He could do
what He said He could do.
00:24:38.56\00:24:42.25
I accepted Jesus with
all my feelings and emotions
00:24:42.28\00:24:46.28
still corrupted
with all the temptations
00:24:46.31\00:24:49.03
with all the
desires that I learned
00:24:49.06\00:24:51.77
to let my mind rule the body
and not the other way around,
00:24:51.80\00:24:56.24
not to be governed by
my feelings and emotions
00:24:56.27\00:24:59.32
but let my mind start governing
those feelings and emotions.
00:24:59.35\00:25:03.02
Wonderful, Mike.
00:25:03.05\00:25:04.57
But for me it was
a little different.
00:25:04.60\00:25:06.92
Again I was such a poser
00:25:06.95\00:25:08.72
and I didn't like
to make people upset.
00:25:08.75\00:25:10.73
I knew that God
existed, I even believed
00:25:10.76\00:25:12.80
that He loved me but
I always had this image
00:25:12.83\00:25:15.77
that God was like my
dad, there is arbitrary,
00:25:15.80\00:25:18.23
that the rules
change and that He basically
00:25:18.26\00:25:20.25
was trying to cheat
me out of something.
00:25:20.28\00:25:22.27
And so I didn't trust Him.
00:25:22.30\00:25:24.39
He had to earn back my trust.
00:25:24.42\00:25:26.64
But as I continued
to pursue Jesus Christ
00:25:26.67\00:25:28.65
as Jesus got me out of
situations and started to--
00:25:28.68\00:25:32.27
I understood that and
I was drawn to that love,
00:25:32.30\00:25:34.82
then He started to show
me who the real father was.
00:25:34.85\00:25:37.66
And then as He
delivered me over and over again
00:25:37.69\00:25:40.79
many times in many years,
00:25:40.82\00:25:42.68
I started to see Him
a little bit differently
00:25:42.71\00:25:44.57
that I could trust Him.
00:25:44.60\00:25:46.03
But I believed that
for many homosexuals,
00:25:46.06\00:25:48.50
we've
experienced so much rejection
00:25:48.53\00:25:51.46
and can't trust anyone.
00:25:51.49\00:25:53.50
And I think that it's
a very normal reaction
00:25:53.53\00:25:57.05
to turn away from God
and to be angry at God
00:25:57.08\00:25:59.56
because of all the rejection
that we've experienced.
00:25:59.59\00:26:01.79
And I believe that
we put that on God.
00:26:01.82\00:26:03.85
In John 17, it talks
about "This is life eternal,
00:26:03.88\00:26:07.16
that they may know
Me the only true God,
00:26:07.19\00:26:09.71
and Christ Jesus,
whom you have sent."
00:26:09.74\00:26:11.62
Amen. Thank you.
00:26:11.65\00:26:14.54
This book is the manual.
00:26:14.57\00:26:16.43
This is the owner's
manual, God has given it to us.
00:26:16.46\00:26:19.78
It tells us what's
right, what's wrong,
00:26:19.81\00:26:22.00
and what's best for us
just like an owner's manual,
00:26:22.03\00:26:23.84
the car tells
us what kind of gas
00:26:23.87\00:26:25.78
we need to put in the gas tank
00:26:25.81\00:26:27.61
so the car will run efficiently
and not have a breakdown.
00:26:27.64\00:26:31.94
God has told us
His original plan,
00:26:31.97\00:26:35.44
He's told us what's
right, what's wrong,
00:26:35.47\00:26:37.14
what a
deviation is from His plan
00:26:37.17\00:26:39.19
and yet I'm encouraged
00:26:39.22\00:26:40.67
by the very same book of Romans
00:26:40.70\00:26:42.47
that points out the
deviation in chapter 5,
00:26:42.50\00:26:45.65
it says in verse 8
00:26:45.68\00:26:47.15
"That God has
demonstrated His love toward us,
00:26:47.18\00:26:51.18
in that, while were yet sinners,
00:26:51.21\00:26:54.58
Christ died for us."
00:26:54.61\00:26:56.79
Even though we have
sinned, we've all sinned,
00:26:56.82\00:26:58.24
we've all done things
that we shouldn't have done,
00:26:58.27\00:27:00.88
and God still loves
us, He loves us a lot.
00:27:00.91\00:27:03.86
He loves you a lot
and our hope is that
00:27:03.89\00:27:07.07
that love will
break into your life,
00:27:07.10\00:27:09.13
it'll change your heart
00:27:09.16\00:27:10.27
and it'll lead you to
give your whole life to Him
00:27:10.30\00:27:12.56
and to follow the owner's manual
00:27:12.59\00:27:14.38
so you can be happy.
00:27:14.41\00:27:16.57
If you'd like to
order the 13 part
00:27:16.60\00:27:18.59
Coming Out series
for $34.95 plus shipping,
00:27:18.62\00:27:21.33
call 1-800-782-4253, or
write to White Horse Media,
00:27:21.36\00:27:26.12
PO Box 1139,
Newport, Washington, 99156.
00:27:26.15\00:27:30.55
Pastor Ron
Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
00:27:30.58\00:27:32.35
and Mike Carducci
are each available
00:27:32.38\00:27:34.02
to conduct a
seminar in your area.
00:27:34.05\00:27:36.34
To schedule a
speaking engagement,
00:27:36.37\00:27:37.91
contact Coming Out Ministries
00:27:37.94\00:27:39.50
by calling 360-936-8514
00:27:39.53\00:27:43.08
or visit
comingoutministries.org.
00:27:43.11\00:27:45.55