Welcome to
Celebrating Life in Recovery,
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I'm Cheri your host.
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In some circles,
there are just some things
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you do not talk about.
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Your opinion may
even be labeled as
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politically incorrect.
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That leads me to
wonder are there lifestyles,
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and sins that even God
Himself is powerless against?
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Are there people
that God just writes off?
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Come join us as we look
at same-sex attractions.
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Welcome back, you know,
what is really interesting
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to me is that when I think
about same-sex attractions,
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homosexuality, gay issues.
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Coming from the streets,
I came from the streets so
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that is just everyday stuff.
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And coming into Christianity
and realizing that God
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has a lot of things that
He has spoken about that.
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So I'm going to just
start with the story that
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happened to me not long ago.
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I am at a church, and I
speak at every denomination.
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If you ask me to
come speak about God.
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I don't care who you
are, I'm there, I'm so there.
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I don't say well
what denomination are you,
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are you a
believer or not a believer.
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I don't even care,
because I just love to talk
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about God and healing.
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So, I go to this one
denomination and we are doing
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a whole weekend thing.
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I am sitting there
the whole time thinking,
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does anybody see
that the pastor is gay?
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And everybody is not
paying attention to that.
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And this guy is so gay.
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I mean, and I don't
want to offend anybody,
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but he was just, it was
just out of place to me.
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You know in this life,
and so I just did the whole
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weekend and every time he
got up I just kind of smiled.
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He was funny, he was
funny and joking around,
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but even in his joking.
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It was just like, I
kept thinking gay, he's gay.
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So we got home late at
night after one of the meetings
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that we had.
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It was like 11:30 PM, and
everybody was tired, and he
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said Cheri, can I
ask you something?
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Can we talk?
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And I thought oh man,
he's going to tell me.
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And he's going to tell
me and what am I saying?
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What do I
believe about all that.
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What was really
funny is that I knew he was
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going to like, confess.
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I'm like no, don't.
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I'm like just a mess, I'm
an addict in recovery, you
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don't want to tell me anything.
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He said, you know that I'm gay?
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And I'm like yes I do.
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And I wanted to say
no, no, really, but how can
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you lie like that
when the pastor is being
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so honest with you?
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So the long and
short of it is that we get
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to know each other.
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When somebody decides
they are going to help him out,
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because there is
freedom in recovery
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from all kinds of stuff.
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You know, a heroin addict,
you can come out of that.
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Somebody lost in same-sex
attractions, addictions and
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all that kind stuff.
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You know all that stuff,
God says there's healing.
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Let me just kind of find
out what is happening with you,
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and it never is
really about the issue.
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So, we are talking about that.
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He is talking to other
people, and somebody says,
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you know, you can
get some help with that.
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Just to look at some of
the stuff they send them to
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San Francisco for counseling.
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I'm like shut up,
you didn't go, did you?
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I'm dying because I'm
think if you go, you can act
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out all the way
there, and all the way back.
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And that's
exactly what happened.
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He was married to
an incredible woman.
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He goes in for
counseling, trying to get some
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understanding about
his pain and sexuality
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and all that kind of stuff.
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Yet every street
corner, he acted out on.
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So he really
starts coming to God.
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You know what, this guy has
some incredible hurts and early
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addictions,
sexualized behavior, molest.
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He just had a bunch of
stuff he had to work through.
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He literally comes to
God and God just puts His
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hand on his life and
brings him to a place
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of acceptance and recovery.
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His recovery was so amazing.
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We always think
its about the issue.
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We always think
it's about our sexuality,
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or the heroine or whatever.
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But most of us are so hurt.
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Most of us has such
deep rooted junk that God
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says you know I want to
heal the junk and everything
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else kind of falls off.
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When you realize how much
you are loved, when you realize
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all that kind of
stuff the junk falls off.
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So he ends up
finding Christ for the
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first time in his life.
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Feels like the Bible
says and I want to start here,
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Romans 8:1, it says "so
now there is no condemnation
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for those who
belong to Christ Jesus. "
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So he comes to God, he
literally works through some
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stuff and he feels he is
sitting in the presence of God,
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who everybody thinks
doesn't even like gays.
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And I hope you don't
turn the channel off right now
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because I feel like
that statement is offensive,
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but I really
believe I've heard that.
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If I haven't heard
that out loud, I have heard
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people say, there
are certain things,
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that God just doesn't like.
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You know, God doesn't
like gays, He doesn't like
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porn addicts, He
surely doesn't like molesters.
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I'm a heroine
addict, with tons of stuff.
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He surely doesn't like people
like me and in the Bible says,
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man where did you get that?
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Because not only do I like
you, I love you and I don't
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have any
condemnation towards you.
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I'm not putting
shame on you, guilt on you.
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I literally want to
bring you out of that.
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So he comes to the
point, were he finds
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Christ for the first
time, standing in the presence
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of God for the first time.
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And feels absolutely loved
and accepted, wooed by God,
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And I'm thinking, I've
listened to this guy tell this
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story and I can feel
the Holy Spirit in him.
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And I can feel the shock,
almost in him, that I stood
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in the presence of God loved.
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And his journey out of
that lifestyle was intense.
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I'm telling you it
was intense and was
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not just an overnight thing.
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It was just not a one-day thing.
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But I watched this guy
fall in love with Christ.
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You know what I said to him?
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I said man, I so can't wait.
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He writes books, the
guys a genius and had
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some really good stuff.
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I said I can't wait
until you write this book.
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And he looked at me and
said, Cheri, and his wife
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even said, we don't
want anyone to know this.
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So like, sorry I told the story.
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But we don't want
anybody to know that so we're
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not going to write this book.
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We are not going to
put all this on the table.
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When he said
that my heart broke.
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Do you know broke for?
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Every single kid that
has to struggle with this.
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Every single person
that has to look at this.
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Every single person that
is lost in this lifestyle
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and dares to even think
that maybe there is a God
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that can help me,
that doesn't have something
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they can pick up and see that.
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You see, know that they're
people that have done this
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journey before you and
didn't feel any condemnation.
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There are people that have
stood up in Christ, and got
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healing and literally to this
point are walking out of that.
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There are people that I
know and love, that will tell
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you how God has loved
them in the most intimate
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moments in their life.
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Whether they were
acting out and God just
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showed up in said,
you know what, I love you.
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I love you so
let's get into healing.
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So I was devastated when
he said he wouldn't share
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this with anyone
because he was afraid.
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He was afraid of what
people were going to do and
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the judgment that
was going to come to him.
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I thought man, and his
wife said something that
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was funny, she's adorable.
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She said, I just
wanted to marry a pastor,
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not a gay guy,
you know what I mean?
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I'm thinking, I'm thinking
I can see her pain in that.
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I wanted to marry a
pastor and all of a sudden this
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stuff unfolds, I just want
healing and to be right now.
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Let's not have to talk about it.
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So on this show I'm
just going to beg you,
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if you never had
any damage sexually.
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If you have never been in
those situations where you
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have really gone all the
way out in that direction,
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just give us
permission to explore it.
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If you have, man, I want to
tell you that isn't God cool!
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The fact that He
loves us, the fact that
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none of our junk shocks Him.
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You know, I can't wait.
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The first people that I'm going
to hang out with besides Christ,
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when I'm in heaven, is
Mary Magdalena and the demoniac.
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I'm going to like Woo Hoo,
can you believe we are here!
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Do you know what I mean,
I just want to tell them.
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Can you believe we are
sitting here with all these
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cool folks that
haven't been as trashed as us.
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But we're sitting
in the same place.
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We're loved by the same God, in
the same way, isn't He awesome?
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I want to introduce you
now to a friend of mine.
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A recent friend of mine
Ron, I want you to come back up
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here, and Ron what was
really incredible to me about
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Ron Woolsey, Woolsey if
I'm pronouncing the name right,
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I never get it right.
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Ron, you understand
what I'm talking about.
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You actually wrote a
book on your journey.
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Yes, but like that
pastor, I didn't want to write a
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book, in fact it was 9
years after my conversion
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that I was asked to.
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I have made a commitment
to the Lord that wherever
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I was asked to speak for
Him I would, but I wasn't
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going to just volunteer.
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I was very timid.
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And so tell me,
because I don't think a lot of
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people understand
when you said, I literally
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did not want to write it.
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It wasn't that I wasn't
going to come to the table
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with this and just accept
my healing and be grateful.
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So why is it that
you wouldn't write it,
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what were you afraid of?
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I think the Lord had His
hand in that because when I
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came into the faith and
was called in to the Ministry,
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what credibility when
I have 1 year, 2 years.
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In fact, there was an
elder my own church that would
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come to me and say Pastor
Ron, I've never met anyone
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like you that lasted more
than 2 years in the church.
00:09:57.37\00:10:00.17
Because of the recovery?
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Yeah, he said, you'll be
back where you came from.
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What kind of
encouragement is that?
00:10:03.83\00:10:05.47
I finally wrote him a letter,
it was a dear John letter.
00:10:05.50\00:10:08.87
His name was John - dear
John don't talk to me again.
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No! I said, dear
John, you know instead of
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standing on the sidelines
waiting for me to fulfill
00:10:13.73\00:10:15.73
your prediction,
why don't you lift me up
00:10:15.76\00:10:18.32
in prayer that I won't?
00:10:18.35\00:10:19.67
By the way it's been 2
years and I'm going on 3.
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Well now it's been 16.
00:10:23.50\00:10:25.55
I never looked
back, never went back.
00:10:25.58\00:10:28.43
When the Son set you
free, you are free indeed.
00:10:28.46\00:10:31.43
So, I want you to tell
us where did you come from?
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LA - okay, good, good start.
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No when I fell into
that lifestyle I was right
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out of college, I
had a degree in theology.
00:10:43.36\00:10:45.23
Wow I didn't know that.
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That's an amazing thing,
but I think it is an important
00:10:46.97\00:10:50.25
detail to insert here
because I think many people go
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through college and are
raised in Christian homes.
00:10:54.44\00:10:58.61
They just expect that
everything will be Christian.
00:10:58.64\00:11:02.51
They will be like
they're expected to be.
00:11:02.54\00:11:05.99
Going through college
and graduating with honors,
00:11:06.02\00:11:09.34
with a degree in theology.
00:11:09.37\00:11:10.71
But having attractions
to men throughout this time,
00:11:10.74\00:11:14.58
so it didn't just start then.
00:11:14.61\00:11:16.69
This was something that
you had struggled with in your
00:11:16.72\00:11:19.09
life - Yes -
long before college.
00:11:19.12\00:11:21.73
But I didn't have the
understanding that I had later.
00:11:21.76\00:11:25.99
I've struggled with this
issue since I was 4 years old.
00:11:26.02\00:11:31.71
Now that should
tell you something.
00:11:31.74\00:11:33.55
What 4-year-old child
should have any kind of
00:11:33.58\00:11:37.71
inclination toward sexuality?
00:11:37.74\00:11:39.71
So if I was struggling
with same-sex attraction and
00:11:39.74\00:11:43.53
fantasizing all of this
from the time I was 4 years old,
00:11:43.56\00:11:47.06
something happened when I
was 4- Right - and it did.
00:11:47.09\00:11:51.18
I had to research my
life and figure all that out.
00:11:51.21\00:11:55.17
I was robbed of
my innocence at 4.
00:11:55.20\00:11:57.94
So when you say robbed of
your innocence - that is a
00:11:57.97\00:12:01.43
nice way of
saying, I was introduced to
00:12:01.46\00:12:04.08
perverted sexual behavior.
00:12:04.11\00:12:06.53
By a farm hand, and I was
traumatized, but the victim
00:12:06.56\00:12:13.25
quite often feels, in
fact usually feels responsible.
00:12:13.28\00:12:17.51
And even at 4 years old,
Cheri, I felt that I had done
00:12:17.54\00:12:21.59
something wrong, - that
I wanted this to happen.
00:12:21.62\00:12:23.94
But I would not go
tattle to mommy and daddy,
00:12:23.97\00:12:26.45
because I had
done something wrong.
00:12:26.48\00:12:28.92
And so that just
festered in me all my life.
00:12:28.95\00:12:32.40
Like a nasty boil
until it eventually erupted.
00:12:32.43\00:12:35.44
And when it did,
there was no holds barred,
00:12:35.47\00:12:39.16
I mean there was
no holding me back.
00:12:39.19\00:12:40.72
There was nothing
anybody can say or do.
00:12:40.75\00:12:43.70
I wouldn't listen to
anything, read anything, watch
00:12:43.73\00:12:46.40
anything, talk to
anybody, it was over.
00:12:46.43\00:12:49.11
You had a Christian
family that was trying to help.
00:12:49.14\00:12:52.02
Oh yes, but they have
no idea what was going on.
00:12:52.05\00:12:54.92
I was a master at masking
my, the contents of my mind.
00:12:54.95\00:13:00.71
I never let on that I
was having that struggle.
00:13:00.74\00:13:03.96
I was struggling all alone.
00:13:03.99\00:13:05.79
And what was really
interesting to me, as I was
00:13:05.82\00:13:08.34
going through the
book that you wrote.
00:13:08.37\00:13:10.26
You even talked about going
out and doing mission trips,
00:13:10.29\00:13:12.98
and hanging out with folks.
00:13:13.01\00:13:14.69
I was a spiritual
child, a spiritual teenager.
00:13:14.72\00:13:17.06
I was valedictorian in
the 8 grade and 12 grade.
00:13:17.09\00:13:20.30
At a Christian school?
00:13:20.33\00:13:21.75
Yes, I chose to go to a
Christian schools myself.
00:13:21.78\00:13:25.18
I was a student missionary,
but I was always plagued
00:13:25.21\00:13:27.90
by these
thoughts and attractions.
00:13:27.93\00:13:30.81
I felt so contaminated
because of my temptations.
00:13:30.84\00:13:35.94
You know Ron, I can't
even imagine what you struggled
00:13:35.97\00:13:38.60
with that as a kid and
how you must've felt like,
00:13:38.63\00:13:41.06
if they only knew.
00:13:41.09\00:13:42.20
Well I felt terribly
guilty - even though - I just
00:13:42.23\00:13:49.11
I didn't know anyone like me.
00:13:49.14\00:13:51.23
I felt like was the
only one in the world.
00:13:51.26\00:13:54.19
I knew better, but I
never met anyone else that
00:13:54.22\00:13:58.13
was struggling with
what I was struggling with.
00:13:58.16\00:14:00.09
I never knew who I
could talk to, so I didn't.
00:14:00.12\00:14:02.88
I just totally internalized
and that was my demise,
00:14:02.91\00:14:07.50
spiritually.
00:14:07.53\00:14:09.05
Now, had I at 4 years
old had been able to go to
00:14:09.08\00:14:11.76
my parents and tell what
happened, they could have
00:14:11.79\00:14:14.72
assured me that I was okay
- and that shame wouldn't have
00:14:14.75\00:14:17.61
been laid on you.
00:14:17.64\00:14:18.92
That's right, and I could've
been healed at the age of
00:14:18.95\00:14:21.56
4, and I could've had
a normal life, I believe.
00:14:21.59\00:14:24.07
That was a step, there
were many factors involved,
00:14:24.10\00:14:27.07
it is not any one
thing, but that was a step.
00:14:27.10\00:14:29.48
So now you said you
were in college, you're doing
00:14:29.51\00:14:34.40
this whole theology thing.
00:14:34.43\00:14:35.72
Are you acting
out at this point?
00:14:35.75\00:14:38.26
No, no, I never - you
still - oh no, I was going
00:14:38.29\00:14:42.12
to do the right thing.
00:14:42.15\00:14:43.62
I wanted to be right
with God and my fellow man.
00:14:43.65\00:14:47.34
In fact, I married a
student missionary that I had
00:14:47.37\00:14:50.86
worked with in Korea.
00:14:50.89\00:14:52.53
You know, I thought I
was an intelligent person,
00:14:52.56\00:14:58.24
but this is just
such poor reasoning.
00:14:58.27\00:15:01.34
I thought if I just got
married, it would take care
00:15:01.37\00:15:04.54
of all the sexual
compulsion that I feel.
00:15:04.57\00:15:08.53
It would be sexual
release, and I would be fine.
00:15:08.56\00:15:13.32
I did that to that poor
woman and she was a nice
00:15:13.35\00:15:16.98
lady, young
lady, a good Christian.
00:15:17.01\00:15:19.90
I married her for the
solution, but Jesus is the
00:15:19.93\00:15:24.02
solution not marriage.
00:15:24.05\00:15:25.61
You know what is really
interesting is that your heart
00:15:25.64\00:15:28.47
you were desperate to be right.
00:15:28.50\00:15:30.81
I wanted to be
right, but I had no answers.
00:15:30.84\00:15:33.38
Because I didn't talk to
anyone, see I didn't know
00:15:33.41\00:15:35.57
where to go so I didn't.
00:15:35.60\00:15:36.93
That was - when you
got married, realizing that
00:15:36.96\00:15:41.43
was not the answer.
00:15:41.46\00:15:42.81
But I'm still
plagued by this and now I'm
00:15:42.84\00:15:45.60
plagued with
realizing what I did to you,
00:15:45.63\00:15:47.41
because I'm not
connecting with you.
00:15:47.44\00:15:49.96
Oh yes and we had two
children, and that was my plan
00:15:49.99\00:15:55.57
also because that would
occupy my wife, keep her busy
00:15:55.60\00:16:01.01
and keep me from having
to be so attentive to her.
00:16:01.04\00:16:05.22
It was a terrible thing
that I did to her, but I didn't
00:16:05.25\00:16:07.39
know, I didn't plan to do that.
00:16:07.42\00:16:09.47
But as we were married, I
just develop more and more of
00:16:09.50\00:16:12.82
an aversion,
realizing this is not who I am.
00:16:12.85\00:16:16.28
This is who I am and I
don't know what to do about it.
00:16:16.31\00:16:20.86
I thought it was just
born this way, I didn't connect
00:16:20.89\00:16:24.11
the dots at that point.
00:16:24.14\00:16:25.47
So I just thought - you
know, and I'm so horrible and
00:16:25.50\00:16:28.69
I just want to say, I'm
so horrible and I want to say
00:16:28.72\00:16:31.38
again, you weren't acting out.
00:16:31.41\00:16:33.59
Cause I wanted to say
how did you not act out.
00:16:33.62\00:16:36.27
Can we get a lie detector test?
00:16:36.30\00:16:37.81
No, I'm sorry - bring it on.
00:16:37.84\00:16:40.97
Okay, you know what
I wanted to say is that
00:16:41.00\00:16:42.69
must've been for most
people, like this pastor
00:16:42.72\00:16:44.50
I was talked about.
00:16:44.53\00:16:45.55
He was acting out all
over, then condemning himself.
00:16:45.58\00:16:47.98
From the age of 14, when
somebody tweaked his whole
00:16:48.01\00:16:51.01
sexuality, he would act
out and feel even worse.
00:16:51.04\00:16:55.02
But you are saying,
I literally fought this
00:16:55.05\00:16:57.54
and didn't act out - I
fought it tooth and nail,
00:16:57.57\00:16:59.77
but I found myself fantasizing,
00:16:59.80\00:17:01.07
I acted out in my mind,
then I felt terribly guilty
00:17:01.10\00:17:05.32
from that, because
I fought it, I mean,
00:17:05.35\00:17:08.33
I fought it all my life.
00:17:08.36\00:17:09.80
I did not want to go there.
00:17:09.83\00:17:11.47
It came to a point where
I finally just gave up and
00:17:11.50\00:17:15.88
said, this is who I am.
00:17:15.91\00:17:17.50
I'm not being true to my
wife, to my family, to myself.
00:17:17.53\00:17:20.28
In my going to live the
rest of my life in this agony,
00:17:20.31\00:17:23.03
misery and living a lie.
00:17:23.06\00:17:25.30
Did you ever feel,
because that is such a hopeless
00:17:25.33\00:17:30.95
place to be in, did you
ever feel like, you know what
00:17:30.98\00:17:34.12
just take me out, I'm just done.
00:17:34.15\00:17:35.75
I loved life, I
was never suicidal.
00:17:35.78\00:17:38.84
Never did, good for you.
00:17:38.87\00:17:40.46
I never wanted to end
it, I wanted a good life.
00:17:40.49\00:17:45.62
Yes, I wanted help, but
I didn't dare ask for it.
00:17:45.65\00:17:49.41
I felt that people would
sneer at me - can I just take
00:17:49.44\00:17:54.46
that for a minute?
00:17:54.49\00:17:55.77
Great shock and go, what!
00:17:55.80\00:17:57.78
Can I just say for a
minute, I really mean this.
00:17:57.81\00:17:59.53
You know, we have
many different issues.
00:17:59.56\00:18:03.27
This is just one where
people are dying to come
00:18:03.30\00:18:05.92
honestly to someone in the
church, to the church itself
00:18:05.95\00:18:10.20
and just be able to say,
I'm struggling with this.
00:18:10.23\00:18:12.48
Can you help me?
00:18:12.51\00:18:14.05
But we are so afraid that
if I do come up, I will be
00:18:14.08\00:18:17.90
shunned for the rest of my
life and that would totally,
00:18:17.93\00:18:19.76
really be alone.
00:18:19.79\00:18:21.20
And sometimes, I want
to plead with the churches,
00:18:21.23\00:18:24.25
we got to get over ourselves.
00:18:24.28\00:18:25.79
Oh yes, and I have to tell
you when I was in that life
00:18:25.82\00:18:30.08
in Florida, Fort Lauderdale,
you know all the gay Mecca's
00:18:30.11\00:18:34.34
And in Southern California,
Palm Springs - because you
00:18:34.37\00:18:37.27
jumped into that
life at that point.
00:18:37.30\00:18:38.76
When I had my first
experience, that was it.
00:18:38.79\00:18:41.60
I mean I was addicted from that
first experience - Especially as
00:18:41.63\00:18:45.05
you set your mind up all
all those years fantasizing too.
00:18:45.08\00:18:48.03
I knew once that happened I
said, though I hate it, this
00:18:48.06\00:18:52.65
is just who I am.
00:18:52.68\00:18:53.87
But you know, Cheri, when
I was in the world all those
00:18:53.90\00:18:56.19
years I continually met
young people, or people that
00:18:56.22\00:19:00.18
would say to me that if I
knew there was any other way
00:19:00.21\00:19:04.16
I would never be gay.
00:19:04.19\00:19:05.78
That is why I'm in the
Ministry I am in now, because I
00:19:05.81\00:19:09.03
realize I am not the only
one that had the struggle.
00:19:09.06\00:19:11.88
There are many, I mean,
there is a large percentage of
00:19:11.91\00:19:16.86
gay people that are
defending it, they are militant,
00:19:16.89\00:19:19.77
they are proud of it,
and they are celebrating it,
00:19:19.80\00:19:22.45
promoting it and
brainwashing people with it.
00:19:22.48\00:19:25.05
But even if it is a
small minority, God loves
00:19:25.08\00:19:29.14
those people and He
does not want to live
00:19:29.17\00:19:31.70
throughout
eternity without them.
00:19:31.73\00:19:33.29
I am finding around
the world through my
00:19:33.32\00:19:35.75
website Ministry -
that people want to stand up
00:19:35.78\00:19:37.67
that people out as they read
00:19:37.70\00:19:39.74
my book and hear my story.
00:19:39.77\00:19:42.00
They say, I too can be whole.
00:19:42.03\00:19:44.43
And they come forward.
00:19:44.46\00:19:46.14
You know, we all can do
that with our testimony.
00:19:46.17\00:19:50.05
Revelation 12:11 says,
"we can overcome the accuser
00:19:50.08\00:19:52.90
of the brethren by the
blood of the Lamb, and by the
00:19:52.93\00:19:56.01
word of our testimony. "
00:19:56.04\00:19:57.63
But you know,
how did you come out?
00:19:57.66\00:20:01.58
Cause right now from your
story, you are in the middle
00:20:01.61\00:20:04.77
of all this kind of stuff.
00:20:04.80\00:20:05.89
You are like an alcoholic
that has walked away from
00:20:05.92\00:20:09.99
every thing you
know into this lifestyle.
00:20:10.02\00:20:11.77
How long did that
period of your life last and
00:20:11.80\00:20:14.53
how did you come out?
00:20:14.56\00:20:15.95
That lasted 16 years, and
I went into it very bitter,
00:20:15.98\00:20:20.39
because as I realized
who I really was - and can I
00:20:20.42\00:20:24.03
just say, you are an incredible
piano player, you have
00:20:24.06\00:20:27.26
have theology, you've
done special music at church,
00:20:27.29\00:20:29.80
you preach and all
that kind of stuff.
00:20:29.83\00:20:31.70
So you literally when
you jumped in that lifestyle,
00:20:31.73\00:20:34.38
you had this incredible
talented giftings that you
00:20:34.41\00:20:40.02
took into that lifestyle
and used in that lifestyle.
00:20:40.05\00:20:43.36
So how did you stand up?
00:20:43.39\00:20:44.66
It was like being born
again, but the wrong way.
00:20:44.69\00:20:48.19
There was nothing in my
present life at that time
00:20:48.22\00:20:51.55
that I could
carry into the new one.
00:20:51.58\00:20:53.44
I turned my back on religion,
I squandered the beautiful
00:20:53.47\00:20:56.99
family, the Lord had
given me, and there was nothing
00:20:57.02\00:21:00.10
I could do with the music
because I had been raised and
00:21:00.13\00:21:02.49
trained in church music.
00:21:02.52\00:21:04.19
So - that would
kind of squash, a party.
00:21:04.22\00:21:07.36
What does a musician
do, I had music in my
00:21:07.39\00:21:09.70
bones, so I took up dancing,
became a dance instructor.
00:21:09.73\00:21:12.28
And then all those
16 years I was a dancer.
00:21:12.31\00:21:14.43
That way, I was always
around music, but it was the
00:21:14.46\00:21:17.23
Devils music and
devils dancing and all that.
00:21:17.26\00:21:20.37
But that is how I
filled that void in my life.
00:21:20.40\00:21:23.81
My life turned 180
degrees the opposite direction
00:21:23.84\00:21:26.75
totally from where I
had been prior to that.
00:21:26.78\00:21:29.52
Now you are in that
lifestyle, did you have multiple
00:21:29.55\00:21:35.25
partners or just a
partner that you - I wanted to
00:21:35.28\00:21:38.87
be married, I
wanted a relationship,
00:21:38.90\00:21:42.24
I didn't want to be tricking.
00:21:42.27\00:21:44.05
I didn't want to spend my
life, flitting from flower
00:21:44.08\00:21:47.45
to flower, tricking,
but to get to Mr. right
00:21:47.48\00:21:50.42
you have to flit.
00:21:50.45\00:21:53.48
So there were too many
times I was going from person
00:21:53.51\00:22:00.53
to person, until
Mr. Right came along.
00:22:00.56\00:22:03.76
So we were together for 3 years.
00:22:03.79\00:22:07.09
With your personality
type and your character that
00:22:07.12\00:22:11.24
was hard too, because
I don't want to just be
00:22:11.27\00:22:13.66
out here with everybody.
00:22:13.69\00:22:15.07
I wanted to be as
normal as possible.
00:22:15.10\00:22:17.58
In an abnormal lifestyle,
the abnormal lifestyle was
00:22:17.61\00:22:20.87
killing you, so
again, how did you come back?
00:22:20.90\00:22:24.76
Well I have to back
up just a little bit.
00:22:24.79\00:22:28.49
I went through my divorce.
00:22:28.52\00:22:30.62
My wife and I, I did
consent to go to some
00:22:30.65\00:22:34.05
counseling - cause you
had to tell her this is
00:22:34.08\00:22:36.93
what you were struggling with?
00:22:36.96\00:22:38.33
As soon as I had that
first experience, right after
00:22:38.36\00:22:43.44
that I told her, because
I didn't want to live a lie,
00:22:43.47\00:22:46.20
I didn't want to be a hypocrite.
00:22:46.23\00:22:47.65
I wasn't going to be a
pastor with that, that in
00:22:47.68\00:22:50.04
my life, so I told her
and bless her heart she did
00:22:50.07\00:22:54.76
everything to try to
help me and turn me around.
00:22:54.79\00:22:59.32
and to cooperate, she
didn't just want to walk
00:22:59.35\00:23:03.38
away she loved me.
00:23:03.41\00:23:04.38
So I consented to go to
some counseling, and I went
00:23:04.39\00:23:07.48
to pastors,
counselors, and psychiatrists,
00:23:07.51\00:23:09.72
all religious ones.
00:23:09.75\00:23:11.65
I don't need to name
the denomination do I?
00:23:11.68\00:23:13.18
In the end Cheri, they
almost all counseled with her
00:23:13.21\00:23:19.00
and said, you know, you
need to divorce this man
00:23:19.03\00:23:21.95
and get on with his life,
that kind can never change.
00:23:21.98\00:23:24.80
That was Christian counseling.
00:23:24.83\00:23:28.20
That is the way I felt,
but I was very hurt by that and
00:23:28.23\00:23:33.35
it left me in the world as
bitter and angry because God
00:23:33.38\00:23:35.95
could help Cheri,
but He couldn't help me.
00:23:35.98\00:23:38.45
He could help an
heroine addict, porno addict.
00:23:38.48\00:23:41.18
and your question
was, how did I come back.
00:23:41.21\00:23:44.39
Well, I did not go to
any pastor, or counselor, or
00:23:44.42\00:23:49.30
psychiatrist, I wonder why?
00:23:49.33\00:23:51.28
I had already been there,
and they couldn't help me.
00:23:51.31\00:23:53.43
I had a degree in
theology and a lot of knowledge,
00:23:53.46\00:23:56.00
but what I had realized I
had studied all those years
00:23:56.03\00:23:58.97
to answer the
questions of the professors.
00:23:59.00\00:24:01.46
I had stopped studying
to answer my soul questions.
00:24:01.49\00:24:06.54
Now say that again.
00:24:06.57\00:24:07.67
I studied to pass the tests,
I answered the questions of
00:24:07.70\00:24:11.96
the professors, and I didn't
have time to answer my own
00:24:11.99\00:24:14.64
questions
through the Word of God.
00:24:14.67\00:24:16.16
That's how I lost my
relationship, that's how I fell.
00:24:16.19\00:24:18.96
You know, for somebody
watching right now, I want you
00:24:18.99\00:24:22.57
to repeat is that when you
are in a place and you're really
00:24:22.60\00:24:26.71
stuck, is to pick up
the Word of God to answer
00:24:26.74\00:24:29.14
those personal questions.
00:24:29.17\00:24:30.62
Like you were
saying, you had read the
00:24:30.65\00:24:32.99
Bible through to pass a test.
00:24:33.02\00:24:35.12
Now you have to pick it up
again and say what's this got
00:24:35.15\00:24:38.24
from a life - that's what I
did and when I give a full-blown
00:24:38.27\00:24:42.19
testimony, I talk about
this Left Behind Series I had.
00:24:42.22\00:24:45.18
My parents loved me
unconditionally, very important.
00:24:45.21\00:24:48.64
They prayed for
me without ceasing.
00:24:48.67\00:24:50.86
They became very forgetful,
they would come all the way
00:24:50.89\00:24:54.25
across the country to
visit me from time to time.
00:24:54.28\00:24:56.41
Every time they went home
they left something behind -
00:24:56.44\00:24:58.41
They are like oh
my goodness He's gay?
00:24:58.44\00:24:59.41
Oh! I thought
forgetful in that way.
00:24:59.44\00:25:02.30
No! no, they
left something behind.
00:25:02.33\00:25:04.74
They knew that they
couldn't get me to read or watch
00:25:04.77\00:25:07.13
or listen or talk, so they
would leave something behind.
00:25:07.16\00:25:09.77
Under my pillow, on my
bed, on the back of the toilet,
00:25:09.80\00:25:12.16
here and there.
00:25:12.19\00:25:13.71
Good for them.
00:25:13.74\00:25:14.71
These were tokens of love,
and I didn't have the heart
00:25:14.72\00:25:16.62
to throw them away,
but I had no use for them.
00:25:16.65\00:25:18.28
Interestingly, they all
had a note to me in them,
00:25:18.31\00:25:20.90
and I collected
them over the years.
00:25:20.93\00:25:23.72
I ended up with a
complete Left Behind Series,
00:25:23.75\00:25:26.83
And it was not
Tim LaHayes either
00:25:26.86\00:25:29.10
It was before Tim
LaHaye ever came on the scene.
00:25:29.13\00:25:32.01
But I had - I love
that - I had a wonderful
00:25:32.04\00:25:34.55
library and so there
was the little garden
00:25:34.58\00:25:37.31
sitting there just waiting.
00:25:37.34\00:25:38.47
When the Lord really was
able to work on my heart,
00:25:38.50\00:25:41.70
then like I said I
didn't go to the counselors,
00:25:41.73\00:25:45.48
I went to the
Word and to my knees.
00:25:45.51\00:25:48.60
I studied for my very
life, and I found all of my
00:25:48.63\00:25:53.55
answers, well in this book.
00:25:53.58\00:25:55.56
Show us some
stuff that you found.
00:25:55.59\00:25:57.48
Well - Steps To Christ,
we went through that for
00:25:57.51\00:25:59.75
our first season, so
it is an incredible book.
00:25:59.78\00:26:02.11
This is a funny
story, and I will
00:26:02.14\00:26:03.99
try to make it real brief.
00:26:04.02\00:26:05.10
I was such - I like
funny, long stories.
00:26:05.13\00:26:06.91
Yes, but we don't
have time for that one so.
00:26:06.94\00:26:09.90
I was, my mind was
just mush, from watching TV.
00:26:09.93\00:26:16.16
I was a TV addict, I
was an addictive person.
00:26:16.19\00:26:19.11
So I went to the Left
Behind Series to pull out
00:26:19.14\00:26:23.88
something to read, I
tried with the Bible.
00:26:23.91\00:26:25.99
It was too heavy,
and I put it back.
00:26:26.02\00:26:29.15
I couldn't concentrate on it.
00:26:29.18\00:26:30.55
But I found this book,
and I pulled it out and I
00:26:30.58\00:26:33.57
thought, if I'm going to
read I'm going to have to
00:26:33.60\00:26:35.87
relax, because I hadn't
read anything in 16 years
00:26:35.91\00:26:38.12
of any substance so I went
to the kitchen, pulled out my
00:26:38.15\00:26:41.18
blender poured in some yellow
stuff and green stuff and ice
00:26:41.21\00:26:44.21
and blended it all up together
and got out the bag of salt.
00:26:44.24\00:26:46.85
And I rimmed my glass and
came back in with my great
00:26:46.88\00:26:50.34
big midori margarita.
00:26:50.37\00:26:52.11
I set down with that
and lit up a cigarette.
00:26:52.14\00:26:54.63
This is someone who
had a degree in theology,
00:26:54.66\00:26:58.41
and I knew better, but it
had been 16 years and I sat
00:26:58.44\00:27:01.56
down and started reading
page one of Steps To Christ.
00:27:01.59\00:27:05.03
I was drinking and
smoking, and I thought there's
00:27:05.06\00:27:07.31
something wrong
with this picture.
00:27:07.34\00:27:09.05
So it's not even what
was said, it's just like you,
00:27:09.08\00:27:11.26
the picture was just -
no, I'm reading in the Word
00:27:11.29\00:27:13.66
of God and I'm
smoking and drinking.
00:27:13.69\00:27:15.66
And I thought, you know,
and I had a little talk with
00:27:15.69\00:27:17.54
God and I said, God I didn't
leave You over cigarettes,
00:27:17.57\00:27:20.51
I've only done that for 3 years.
00:27:20.54\00:27:22.67
I didn't leave You over
alcohol, didn't know anything
00:27:22.70\00:27:25.30
about alcohol
until after I left You.
00:27:25.33\00:27:27.33
That is not my problem.
00:27:27.36\00:27:28.81
So I sipped and smoked
and said I'm going to keep
00:27:28.84\00:27:31.07
reading until You tell
me what's really wrong.
00:27:31.10\00:27:34.62
And in this book
it is on page 32.
00:27:34.65\00:27:37.79
I want share
this little paragraph.
00:27:37.82\00:27:39.22
It was a turning point in
my experience, as I read this.
00:27:39.25\00:27:43.79
It says, "God does not
require us to give up anything
00:27:43.82\00:27:47.64
that it is for our
best interest to retain. "
00:27:47.67\00:27:50.49
"In all He does, He
has the well-being of
00:27:50.52\00:27:54.40
His children in view. "
00:27:54.43\00:27:55.78
"Would that all who have not
chosen Christ might realize that
00:27:55.81\00:28:00.52
He has something vastly
better to offer them than they
00:28:00.55\00:28:04.44
are seeking for themselves. "
00:28:04.47\00:28:06.40
Wow - I reached over and
put out my cigarette, I could
00:28:06.43\00:28:10.24
no longer read the Word
of God and smoke and drink.
00:28:10.27\00:28:13.15
And here I had been living
this self gratification life
00:28:13.18\00:28:16.54
for 16 years.
00:28:16.57\00:28:18.10
It suddenly dawned on me,
what Christ has to offer far
00:28:18.13\00:28:21.61
exceeds anything
that I can even imagine.
00:28:21.64\00:28:23.49
How stupid can I
be! His way is better!
00:28:23.52\00:28:27.64
We are going to break
on this whole stupid thing.
00:28:27.67\00:28:29.67
We will come back to
find out, don't answer that
00:28:29.70\00:28:33.22
question, so we are
going to take a break and
00:28:33.25\00:28:35.97
I want you to come
back because for one
00:28:36.00\00:28:37.72
this journey is incredible,
the fact that God, He doesn't
00:28:37.75\00:28:41.94
say you change and get right
and then I'll have you open
00:28:41.97\00:28:45.57
the Word of God
and come back to Me.
00:28:45.60\00:28:47.01
He just says, in the
middle of what ever, if you have
00:28:47.04\00:28:49.26
any inclination to even
turn to Me in prayer, grab
00:28:49.29\00:28:52.90
something that
somebody has left behind.
00:28:52.93\00:28:54.54
To really open up the scriptures
again and find out some
00:28:54.57\00:28:56.68
answers for yourself, for
what is going on in your life.
00:28:56.71\00:28:58.66
He just says, just come.
00:28:58.69\00:29:01.37
I have a friend
that used to smoke weed.
00:29:01.40\00:29:04.62
And he was just smoking
weed and studying the Bible.
00:29:04.65\00:29:07.51
He said he didn't feel
good enough to come to church,
00:29:07.54\00:29:10.36
so he would
just study the Bible.
00:29:10.39\00:29:11.79
And he said, one day he
is studying, and I was having
00:29:11.82\00:29:14.87
Cheri, the most incredible
time with God when the ash
00:29:14.90\00:29:19.13
from the joint just fell
on the Bible and burned a hole
00:29:19.16\00:29:22.10
in the page.
00:29:22.13\00:29:23.12
And he looked at me,
just like, and I said wow,
00:29:23.15\00:29:27.17
what did you do?
00:29:27.20\00:29:28.31
He said, I
immediately switched to a pipe,
00:29:28.34\00:29:30.43
and I'm
thinking, how cute is that.
00:29:30.46\00:29:33.04
That we come to
God, we don't even know,
00:29:33.07\00:29:36.22
smoking weed and
doing Bible studies may
00:29:36.25\00:29:39.88
not be the best
or been so out there.
00:29:39.91\00:29:43.26
I have another friend, a
Meth addict, when he would get
00:29:43.29\00:29:45.82
so high on Meth and
speeding out for 4 or 5 days.
00:29:45.85\00:29:51.07
He would have Bible
studies at his house.
00:29:51.10\00:29:52.76
So, I think God says,
you know what I don't care.
00:29:52.79\00:29:56.07
Not that I don't care your
strung out, not that I don't
00:29:56.10\00:29:59.24
care that you are lost in
your addictions, but whatever
00:29:59.27\00:30:01.19
it takes to get you
to just opened this book.
00:30:01.22\00:30:04.05
Start looking for answers
in this book or praying to
00:30:04.08\00:30:08.24
Me and I will literally
walk you into recovery.
00:30:08.27\00:30:10.66
We are going to take a break.
00:30:10.69\00:30:11.98
I want you to come back,
because I want to introduce
00:30:12.01\00:30:16.14
you to some are friends of
mine who have joined us for
00:30:16.17\00:30:18.35
this show, for this topic.
00:30:18.38\00:30:20.46
Stay with us!
00:30:20.49\00:30:22.19