The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to addictive behavior.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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You know, for a lot of people,
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it's just
uncomfortable to talk about
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who we are sexually
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but I just feel
like we are a mass.
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I remember even when,
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for some of you know
the Ashley Manor thing,
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where 45 million
people were on a dating site
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where they were just having,
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they could find
someone to have sex with,
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never even get
their names right,
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half of them were married.
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Most of them
were in relationships
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with other
people but we are a mass
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in every single way and I
think unless we talk about it,
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unless we stop hiding
and stop living in shame...
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We are going to be hijacked
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in every way with any addiction,
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as soon as I can say
out loud, you know what?
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I'm powerless with this.
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I need some help,
as soon as I can start
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bringing people into my
life to keep me accountable,
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I'm going to be stuck
and that's any addiction,
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eating, sex, work, spending,
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religious addictions,
any of that kind of stuff
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and so for folks
that are a little nervous
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when we talk about sex
itself is that I just wanna say,
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thank you so much,
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'cause you shared a
lot with us, so far both.
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Donald and Janelle,
you were talking about
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from the time you were kids.
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You've used
sexuality in a way to escape,
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to feel good, to get
into a fantasy world to cope,
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now you met each other,
fall in love, move in together.
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Did you know about each other's
kind of sexual addiction?
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And where did that play
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in your first part
of your relationship?
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I'd say maybe
onto the depth of it.
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Probably, a little bit but yeah,
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as far as with my
area of sexual chat,
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she had no clue.
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And I was doing sexual
chat on the pornography,
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so I'm watching
the movies and stuff
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actually we did together,
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so that part, yeah,
but the sexual chats,
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she did not
know, I kept it quiet
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and had to
expose that years later
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after I finally came clean
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but, yeah, it was
not really as prevalent.
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Go ahead.
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We were together for a while
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before we actually
started going to the video store
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and the "back room."
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You know, where they
had the little section
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with the porn and stuff
and where we were kind of,
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had to sneak back there
basically, because the room...
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The place is full of
people and it's kind of like
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you feel ashamed
just going in there
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and it was kind
of like, you know,
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the more we went in
there though the less and less,
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you know, we just
became desensitized just like,
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you know, we became desensitized
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in a lot of ways
because of our past
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but just, you know,
going in there and, you know,
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getting the videos
and even at the checkout
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was like, wow, and kind
of embarrassed about this
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but eventually, I wasn't,
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but we were
together for a few years
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before we started doing
that and go in and get...
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Before you were that
open with each other.
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Yeah.
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So now you're
still living together,
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openly acting out
together and everything is fine.
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No problems.
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You find out that
he's also in chat rooms
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talking with other
people and so, you know,
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even everybody has
these kinds of things
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but that's across
the line, I, you know,
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you are now cheating on me.
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Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
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And I think I kind of
suspected something when he,
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before he told me I kind
of suspected just because of,
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you know, we were together,
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I think maybe
seven years at that point
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and I just knew that
he wasn't acting right.
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And I could tell.
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And so we finally had
that conversation and it was,
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you know, like when he
told me and I don't even know
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how I did this but
he told me, you know,
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what he was
doing and stuff and I,
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somehow I found his
username and password,
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was checking his
stuff and I was like,
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I don't even like
the person I was becoming
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and like I'm so
distrustful of him
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and just checking
everything he's doing like,
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I don't wanna be like that.
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Eventually, you
know, I became, you know,
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just like obsessed about
it and it was like taken over,
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what I was
thinking about, it was like,
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it was on my mind constantly,
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wonder if he's telling
me the truth, you know,
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and all that kind
of stuff, so I was.
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You know, what's really...
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And this is crazy 'cause I
just gotta say this out loud
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is the devil never let's
us just sit in our addictions
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and not be trashed,
we become suspicious.
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We start, you know,
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and literally we're
lost in our addiction
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but we start accusing
each other, there's chaos,
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there's all that kind of
stuff, there is no peace in sin
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after a while and I
don't care what it is,
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you know, there's just no peace
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and what you're finding
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is what was okay
with us for years.
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All of the sudden,
it's turning on both of us
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and we're having to
look at that, you know,
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did you guys decide
that we just got to,
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you know, you
know this is cheesy,
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just say 'no.'
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We gotta stop, we
gotta turn things around
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and when did that come
into your relationship?
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For me,
actually I had to back up
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when we're talking
about the sexual chat,
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I was really
being, how to put this,
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so it was really
disgrading on my mind.
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I've got to tell
her, I've got to tell her,
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was constantly,
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this is getting too deep
and I've got to quit this,
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I'm in a serious relationship,
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you know, my parents were
still married to this day.
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I didn't come from a
broken family like that.
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And so I knew how
serious relationships are
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and I kept still,
driven into this sexual chat
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and I'm like,
I've got to tell her,
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this is gonna kill her
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and I know it's
gonna just break our trust.
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And, Donald, when you
talk about driven into that,
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I have friends that said,
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that even as
they're in bed together,
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wife reading, husbands online,
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chatting or
looking at something,
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so it drives you, it's
like every free moment,
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you know, it doesn't
matter if you're at work
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or it doesn't matter if
somebody is in the house.
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I'm gonna find a
way to get online.
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Yeah.
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It even followed me
from my one job I lost
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to the next job and I
knew I was doing wrong.
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I just kept going
right back into it,
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it got even heavier
because I found YouTube
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and that went really interesting
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and I know world was
watching what I was watching
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but that's where some
changes happened though.
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I started realizing I need to
make some changes in my life...
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'Cause you'll
lose your job again.
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Yeah. Well, that
and I'll lose her.
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And so I'm just
crying out to God
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and what had
happened is in 2008,
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we had made
arrangements to get married.
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It was ten years
later and we finally decided
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we're going to get married,
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August of that
year and in February,
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I had a very interesting
dream, late February 2008,
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I had a dream and I
know where it came from,
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it came from God
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and He spoke to me
through that dream,
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it was very intense.
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I was in a bar
drinking, having some fun
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with some friends
and they're sitting down.
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I was standing up.
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This old man walks in,
he had a long white beard,
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long white hair,
had made eye contact,
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he was literally
looking in your eyes,
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said, "God is coming."
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And I just shot up on my bed
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and I just literally
ran to the living room,
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I've never read a Bible before.
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I grabbed the
Bible, started reading it.
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I'm like, "Why am I doing this?"
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I stated crying and like,
I don't know what's going on.
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This is crazy but...
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It was so real to you. Oh, yeah.
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So, you know, to me I
just want you to address this
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'cause some people say,
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"God doesn't talk
to us in our sin."
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Oh, that's not true. Yeah.
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And why do you
say that's not true
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because to me I think one
of the most important thing
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for us to remember is God
never stops talking to us.
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That's right. He's always there.
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He's like, I can't lose you,
you know, there's a, you know,
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we wrote "Steps to
Christ" in a recovery edition
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and in that I, you know,
there's a place in Hosea,
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where God says,
"How can I let you go,
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even though you're
destroying yourself,
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even though you don't even
know it's me that's chasing you.
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I will not stop... That's right.
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"I love you"
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and that sense of God
saying, "I can't stop."
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You are pushing me away.
You're shutting the door.
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You're putting all of
this stuff around you,
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you can't even hardly hear
my voice but I promise you,
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if you get silent for a moment,
you will know I'm right there.
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Right. He's
looking for an open heart.
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I want you to
open that heart to me.
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That grace come flooding in and,
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you know, when God
speaks till you hear
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and you'll know He's calling you
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out of that darkness...
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So you get the Word of God
now, you're going to that...
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Well, what are you thinking?
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Well, I should
mention, I don't think I did,
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the fact that we
almost broke up over this
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and so there was a
really rough time for us there,
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for about a year and a half
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and I remember these
roses that he bought me,
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it just came to my mind,
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he bought me
these roses to plant
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and so there's three of them.
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And so I planted them
and that was like a symbolic,
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you know, he wanted,
it was just kind of like,
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"Will you forgive
me," kind of thing.
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And so it was really interesting
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'cause every time I
would see these roses,
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you know, and stuff I
remember how we made amends
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and at that point I
wasn't thinking about God,
00:09:02.10\00:09:05.14
when we were still
going through all this
00:09:05.17\00:09:06.98
but I know that he was
working on both of our hearts
00:09:07.01\00:09:10.05
and so I know that
seeing him struggle with,
00:09:10.08\00:09:13.62
you know, his own addictions
that he was trying to quit
00:09:13.65\00:09:16.82
and so then I knew I
had my own stuff too with,
00:09:16.85\00:09:19.35
I was dealing with,
trying to, you know, quit
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and so I knew that
God was working on him
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because he's after this dream,
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he started reading his Bible
and he was really, you know,
00:09:26.49\00:09:29.33
searching for God
00:09:29.36\00:09:30.73
and I wasn't
ready at that point,
00:09:30.77\00:09:33.37
I wasn't ready for God,
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I have been raised
in a Christian home.
00:09:34.77\00:09:37.07
You know, my
parents got divorced.
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I stopped going
to church, you know.
00:09:38.47\00:09:40.38
And so I knew about
God but I never just,
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I wasn't ready
00:09:44.81\00:09:46.15
and really wasn't sure
about God at that point
00:09:46.18\00:09:49.88
and if I wanted to come back,
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like at what time
I would come back.
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What does that mean?
00:09:53.66\00:09:54.99
What's really crazy is
we get into this imagery
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and this stuff and this
world that is just so twisted
00:09:59.36\00:10:03.13
as far as who are we as
men, who are we as women,
00:10:03.16\00:10:06.20
what is sexy, what is
not, all of that thing
00:10:06.23\00:10:08.90
and the picture we
have of somebody in church.
00:10:08.94\00:10:12.51
Like I remember watching
Saturday Night Live once
00:10:12.54\00:10:14.98
and I don't even know if
you know the earlier stuff
00:10:15.01\00:10:17.18
but there was a
church lady on there
00:10:17.21\00:10:18.88
and she was in
black and she had a bun on
00:10:18.91\00:10:21.68
and she would say,
"Who made you do that?
00:10:21.72\00:10:24.12
Was it Satan?"
00:10:24.15\00:10:25.89
You know, and I thought,
00:10:25.92\00:10:27.26
"God, do not make
me the church lady."
00:10:27.29\00:10:29.32
When somebody said,
00:10:29.36\00:10:30.69
"You're gonna
become a Christian."
00:10:30.73\00:10:32.06
I would almost panic because
I didn't want to be that...
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Yeah.
00:10:35.20\00:10:36.53
I didn't want to be,
you know, no fun and angry
00:10:36.56\00:10:39.40
and all that kind of stuff
00:10:39.43\00:10:40.77
and so if you're
from that background
00:10:40.80\00:10:42.50
and you've been
seduced into pornography,
00:10:42.54\00:10:44.81
the devil himself will
make Christianity look bizarre.
00:10:44.84\00:10:48.44
And see that was
something I think too that,
00:10:48.48\00:10:51.31
I'm glad you mentioned
that because when I was a kid,
00:10:51.35\00:10:53.62
I saw that kind of Christianity,
00:10:53.65\00:10:56.25
I saw that, you know, the,
00:10:56.28\00:10:59.35
you know, just,
you know, never...
00:10:59.39\00:11:01.06
The judgments and no happy.
00:11:01.09\00:11:02.96
Yeah, no joy. No peace.
00:11:02.99\00:11:05.56
I saw that, you know, I think
that kind of made me question,
00:11:05.59\00:11:09.13
you know, do I
wanna ever go back
00:11:09.16\00:11:10.50
to that kind of environment.
00:11:10.53\00:11:11.87
I'd never seen
anything besides that.
00:11:11.90\00:11:14.10
And so, we know,
there was all that going
00:11:14.14\00:11:16.20
through my mind at
that time too, so...
00:11:16.24\00:11:18.61
So it's crazy.
00:11:18.64\00:11:19.97
So you're saying,
"I'm either in this world
00:11:20.01\00:11:22.04
or I have to go to this one."
00:11:22.08\00:11:25.55
And, you know, could
you imagine the strategy
00:11:25.58\00:11:29.05
of the enemy just
saying, you know what?
00:11:29.08\00:11:30.55
As long as I can make
this world look disgusting,
00:11:30.59\00:11:34.56
Christianity look disgusting.
00:11:34.59\00:11:36.96
I've got them trapped. Exactly.
00:11:36.99\00:11:38.83
But both of you are
feeling that God is moving,
00:11:38.86\00:11:42.16
you're in the Word of God.
00:11:42.20\00:11:44.07
You're literally
going to the Bible.
00:11:44.10\00:11:46.17
Yeah, actually three months,
00:11:46.20\00:11:48.24
it took me to go from
Genesis to Revelation,
00:11:48.27\00:11:51.24
three months I
read it and three months
00:11:51.27\00:11:53.17
and I was hungry for more,
00:11:53.21\00:11:55.11
I didn't know where to go
and actually I'm going to,
00:11:55.14\00:11:57.81
I was only in
church for a while,
00:11:57.85\00:11:59.18
I love to sing, I ain't
a lead singer but actually
00:11:59.21\00:12:01.38
God put me in the
front of the church
00:12:01.42\00:12:03.49
to kind of lead out
00:12:03.52\00:12:04.85
and I didn't know
where He's leading me.
00:12:04.89\00:12:06.22
So you end up going to church.
00:12:06.25\00:12:08.22
She's panicking
00:12:08.26\00:12:10.96
and your life is
starting to change.
00:12:10.99\00:12:14.60
You are now seeking after,
00:12:14.63\00:12:18.03
whatever I can find spiritually
00:12:18.07\00:12:20.44
not chat rooms...
00:12:20.47\00:12:22.54
Yep, always...
00:12:22.57\00:12:24.07
And the reason I
had to say that, Donald,
00:12:24.11\00:12:25.44
because we say that
God changes the desire.
00:12:25.47\00:12:28.44
It's not that we force
a change, that God says,
00:12:28.48\00:12:32.38
"I will change your desire,
00:12:32.41\00:12:33.92
you just give me half a chance."
00:12:33.95\00:12:35.52
What were you laughing about?
00:12:35.55\00:12:37.35
Interesting because
when I used to work,
00:12:37.39\00:12:39.19
I used to look at
YouTube and all this pornography
00:12:39.22\00:12:41.29
and stuff through Youtube
00:12:41.32\00:12:42.66
and then I
actually start switching
00:12:42.69\00:12:44.03
and learning truth
through the internet and...
00:12:44.06\00:12:46.29
So now you're
looking for sermons.
00:12:46.33\00:12:47.66
Yeah. I was looking for truth.
00:12:47.70\00:12:49.06
Yeah, I was thirsty for truth.
00:12:49.10\00:12:50.43
I wanna know what it
was and stumbled on it
00:12:50.47\00:12:53.10
and it was just amazing.
00:12:53.13\00:12:54.50
When I finally see
what truth really was
00:12:54.54\00:12:56.14
and finding Jesus Christ
00:12:56.17\00:12:58.01
was the biggest
thing in my life, so...
00:12:58.04\00:12:59.84
Did you feel, did
He ever shame you?
00:12:59.87\00:13:01.58
Who?
00:13:01.61\00:13:02.94
God. No.
00:13:02.98\00:13:04.31
Could talk about that
'cause a lot of us are afraid,
00:13:04.35\00:13:06.72
I know I was afraid
that with my background
00:13:06.75\00:13:10.02
that I would be so ashamed
to stand in front of God,
00:13:10.05\00:13:14.82
knowing who I am.
00:13:14.86\00:13:17.29
But when that's
not the way it is.
00:13:17.33\00:13:19.06
He'll never shame you,
I feel more like I was,
00:13:19.09\00:13:21.66
you know, I shamed him.
00:13:21.70\00:13:23.10
That's the way it
was but, yeah, He never,
00:13:23.13\00:13:25.00
He's always accepting
me, He's always pulled me in,
00:13:25.03\00:13:27.20
He's always been there
and gave me the courage
00:13:27.24\00:13:29.47
and the strength to
overcome this addiction.
00:13:29.50\00:13:32.44
So I was really blessed
by His grace and His mercy
00:13:32.47\00:13:35.51
and time He gave me.
00:13:35.54\00:13:36.91
You wanna pull out of that
because I was 22 years into it.
00:13:36.95\00:13:39.65
We're in the book "Victory
in Jesus," we're looking at,
00:13:39.68\00:13:43.59
you know, Romans
and in Romans 2:4,
00:13:43.62\00:13:48.49
one of the things
I'd love is it says,
00:13:48.52\00:13:50.83
"Do you despise the goodness
of God, the grace of God,
00:13:50.86\00:13:54.33
that He literally goes with us
00:13:54.36\00:13:56.00
for years of our acting
out, years of our rebellion."
00:13:56.03\00:13:59.83
So that we understand repentance
00:13:59.87\00:14:02.44
and we turn towards Him
and hand Him all this stuff.
00:14:02.47\00:14:05.11
And somebody says,
"Well, why is God so patient?"
00:14:05.14\00:14:07.61
I don't know but, you
know, Paul really warns us,
00:14:07.64\00:14:11.85
don't get angry at
God that He's so patient,
00:14:11.88\00:14:14.35
because He doesn't
wanna lose any of us
00:14:14.38\00:14:16.25
and you were
hijacked as a little boy,
00:14:16.28\00:14:19.09
my heart breaks for
that kid and the same thing
00:14:19.12\00:14:21.76
you were hijacked early on
00:14:21.79\00:14:23.66
and as you're
watching him change
00:14:23.69\00:14:25.46
'cause he's now
changing, right in front of you.
00:14:25.49\00:14:28.43
Yeah, for sure.
00:14:28.46\00:14:29.80
Yeah, and we just,
our relationship became,
00:14:29.83\00:14:34.94
it just became
better at that point
00:14:34.97\00:14:37.24
and I saw all of
the changes in him
00:14:37.27\00:14:38.84
and I knew that he had
tried to quit several times,
00:14:38.87\00:14:41.81
these chats and
stuff and we were...
00:14:41.84\00:14:45.58
We had our, you
know, discussions about it
00:14:45.61\00:14:47.65
and I knew how
hard it was for him
00:14:47.68\00:14:49.78
and so I saw those changes
00:14:49.82\00:14:51.45
and I knew that it had
to be God, it had to be,
00:14:51.49\00:14:53.52
you know, way beyond Him
because of the repeated times
00:14:53.56\00:14:56.99
he had tried to change.
00:14:57.03\00:14:58.79
And so we decided at one point,
00:14:58.83\00:15:01.80
actually, he was ready.
00:15:01.83\00:15:03.30
Each time, like
each step towards God,
00:15:03.33\00:15:05.43
he was ready before I was.
00:15:05.47\00:15:08.64
He wanted to get
rid of our porn stash
00:15:08.67\00:15:12.24
and our toys and stuff and
so, I'll say, "Well, no..."
00:15:12.27\00:15:15.54
I'm not ready. "I'm not ready."
00:15:15.58\00:15:17.48
And so he, you know, he
got rid of some of his stuff
00:15:17.51\00:15:20.08
and so, you know, eventually,
00:15:20.12\00:15:22.02
I don't know there's been
some time there but eventually,
00:15:22.05\00:15:24.59
I wanted to do the same thing
00:15:24.62\00:15:26.59
and it's kind
of this goofy thing
00:15:26.62\00:15:29.22
that not only I
was convicted of it
00:15:29.26\00:15:31.09
but also this
goofy thought that...
00:15:31.13\00:15:33.36
What if there was a tornado
and all this stuff that we have
00:15:33.40\00:15:37.57
is floating
around the neighborhood
00:15:37.60\00:15:39.47
and people are seeing
it like, "What is that?"
00:15:39.50\00:15:41.54
and so...
00:15:41.57\00:15:42.90
That actually
happened somewhere...
00:15:42.94\00:15:44.27
That's funny. Yeah.
00:15:44.31\00:15:45.64
That actually
happened. And so I was...
00:15:45.67\00:15:47.04
'Cause there's
tornadoes around here,
00:15:47.08\00:15:48.41
so you understand what is.
00:15:48.44\00:15:49.78
Yeah, exactly,
and I was like, well,
00:15:49.81\00:15:51.78
I don't want that
to be my motivation
00:15:51.81\00:15:53.38
but that wasn't
something I was thinking of
00:15:53.42\00:15:56.22
but I thought, you know,
00:15:56.25\00:15:58.15
how can I be
really connected with him.
00:15:58.19\00:16:00.49
If he's going this way
and I've still got this
00:16:00.52\00:16:03.12
and I'm gonna, you know,
00:16:03.16\00:16:04.49
it just
wouldn't be as enjoyable.
00:16:04.53\00:16:05.86
You know, if he
was not into it and so,
00:16:05.89\00:16:09.26
we burned the rest
of our stuff and...
00:16:09.30\00:16:13.10
I should back up a little bit.
00:16:13.13\00:16:14.47
We were actually
talking to each other,
00:16:14.50\00:16:15.84
we're looking at each other
and it was kind of interesting,
00:16:15.87\00:16:17.21
we're looking while we can,
we're convicted of this now,
00:16:17.24\00:16:18.91
we can't give it to our friends
00:16:18.94\00:16:20.81
and how can you just
give up your porn stash...
00:16:20.84\00:16:22.31
Every time you
say that, I think,
00:16:22.34\00:16:23.68
I don't know if
you're supposed to give
00:16:23.71\00:16:25.05
your porn stash to people.
00:16:25.08\00:16:26.75
No. I don't think, no.
00:16:26.78\00:16:28.15
But, yeah,... Definitely not.
00:16:28.18\00:16:29.62
And then back to track
00:16:29.65\00:16:30.99
that what she's
talking about tornado,
00:16:31.02\00:16:32.35
actually I was
burning the magazine
00:16:32.39\00:16:34.12
and our neighbor's rolling up
00:16:34.16\00:16:35.49
and also just the wind just
caught in all these, article,
00:16:35.52\00:16:38.49
you know, there are pictures
and stuff I'm trying to grab
00:16:38.53\00:16:40.26
and throw them like, I don't
want my neighbor to see this,
00:16:40.30\00:16:41.96
I'm trying to
grab and throw it off,
00:16:42.00\00:16:44.83
so they're really
blowing and flying and I'm like,
00:16:44.87\00:16:46.77
"Oh man, this is bad."
00:16:46.80\00:16:48.14
And this is actually years
after I got rid of everything,
00:16:48.17\00:16:49.67
we found a magazine,
later we're cleaning our house.
00:16:49.70\00:16:52.04
I'm like, "Oh,
man, don't tell me
00:16:52.07\00:16:53.41
you had that here
so had to literally..."
00:16:53.44\00:16:55.38
So everything is now
burnt, your life is changing.
00:16:55.41\00:17:00.32
Before we finish
and talk about that.
00:17:00.35\00:17:03.55
I wanna just meet
some people at the cafe
00:17:03.59\00:17:06.15
and see if anybody has a
comment or question for you.
00:17:06.19\00:17:08.26
Sure. Okay.
00:17:08.29\00:17:09.62
And I know that here today,
00:17:09.66\00:17:11.43
I have some friends
that are friends locally,
00:17:11.46\00:17:15.76
in their pastoral ministries,
just incredible folks,
00:17:15.80\00:17:19.50
I got a friend, Damas,
from New Zealand coming in.
00:17:19.53\00:17:24.47
I know that, you know,
there's marriage counselors,
00:17:24.51\00:17:28.51
you got Ricky
and Richie and Timmy
00:17:28.54\00:17:31.88
but I wanna ask, Thomas,
00:17:31.91\00:17:34.15
do you have a question for them?
00:17:34.18\00:17:35.58
Do you have a comment for them?
00:17:35.62\00:17:37.09
I do.
00:17:37.12\00:17:38.95
Donald and
Janelle, first of all,
00:17:38.99\00:17:40.32
I wanna thank you very
much for being so courageous
00:17:40.36\00:17:42.29
and sharing both of
your stories together.
00:17:42.32\00:17:45.56
As I've been
listening, I do have a question
00:17:45.59\00:17:47.83
and that would be,
00:17:47.86\00:17:49.90
at the point that
you were heavily involved
00:17:49.93\00:17:53.34
in this lifestyle,
00:17:53.37\00:17:55.54
was there a sense of prompting
or niggling in your life
00:17:55.57\00:18:01.21
that maybe you didn't
identify the Holy Spirit
00:18:01.24\00:18:03.11
speaking to you
but was any of that,
00:18:03.14\00:18:05.61
somewhere involved
in what you were doing?
00:18:05.65\00:18:09.88
It's a good
question. I can answer that.
00:18:09.92\00:18:11.49
Except for me
and just for myself,
00:18:11.52\00:18:13.89
I remember I had some
books from my parents,
00:18:13.92\00:18:17.96
from when we had gone
to church when I was a kid
00:18:17.99\00:18:20.36
and there's one
called 'Child Guidance'
00:18:20.40\00:18:22.60
and this was like way
before we even, you know,
00:18:22.63\00:18:27.37
started like,
before Don's changes.
00:18:27.40\00:18:29.70
I was reading in
there one day, I don't know,
00:18:29.74\00:18:32.14
had to be the Holy Spirit
prompting me to read this book
00:18:32.17\00:18:34.84
and it talked about self
abuse which is masturbation
00:18:34.88\00:18:38.51
and, you know, at that
point, I was way far from God
00:18:38.55\00:18:42.02
and I read that in
there and I was like,
00:18:42.05\00:18:44.92
I can never stop doing it
00:18:44.95\00:18:47.62
and I know that those are
Holy Spirit speaking to me.
00:18:47.66\00:18:50.96
I mean, the fact I
even picked the book up,
00:18:50.99\00:18:53.36
a book that I would never read
except that it was, you know,
00:18:53.40\00:18:58.33
in a place, you
know, where I was...
00:18:58.37\00:18:59.87
I just wanted to
pick it up and read it
00:18:59.90\00:19:02.00
and I think that
really was the Holy Spirit.
00:19:02.04\00:19:04.84
You know, for me, showing me
00:19:04.87\00:19:07.28
that what I was
doing wasn't right.
00:19:07.31\00:19:09.24
And literally
taking you in a direction,
00:19:09.28\00:19:11.08
and when you
talk about, you know,
00:19:11.11\00:19:12.61
self abuse and masturbation,
what's really interesting to me
00:19:12.65\00:19:17.35
is that there is a sense
that God says, "You can't.
00:19:17.39\00:19:21.89
If you could just be
involved in those kind of acts
00:19:21.92\00:19:26.16
without
fantasizing in your head."
00:19:26.19\00:19:30.53
That would be one
thing but you can't.
00:19:30.57\00:19:32.03
I mean, where
you go in your head
00:19:32.07\00:19:33.40
is very dangerous and
then nobody can live up
00:19:33.44\00:19:36.60
to the fantasies
that you do in your head.
00:19:36.64\00:19:38.47
So you really
start to disconnect
00:19:38.51\00:19:41.08
from anybody that
actually can be intimately
00:19:41.11\00:19:43.95
involved in your life
and so when somebody says,
00:19:43.98\00:19:46.72
"Is it right. Is it
wrong? Is it good or bad?"
00:19:46.75\00:19:49.48
I think what's
destructive about,
00:19:49.52\00:19:52.99
when we start to
take care of our own needs
00:19:53.02\00:19:55.82
without anyone else,
that nobody can compete
00:19:55.86\00:19:59.63
with what we
can do in our heads.
00:19:59.66\00:20:01.36
You can't, I can control
exactly where I take myself.
00:20:01.40\00:20:06.13
If you get involved,
it's a little more clumsy.
00:20:06.17\00:20:08.84
So I actually
will push people away
00:20:08.87\00:20:10.81
and so I love the fact
that you went to a book
00:20:10.84\00:20:13.58
that said, "Be Aware,
this will not turn out well."
00:20:13.61\00:20:19.11
And we're not talking
about, you know, I know that,
00:20:19.15\00:20:22.28
Donald, you've talked
about even the medical aspect
00:20:22.32\00:20:24.65
of some of these things
00:20:24.69\00:20:26.25
and that's a whole another thing
00:20:26.29\00:20:27.66
but just
psychologically it's a big deal
00:20:27.69\00:20:30.03
and we have other
questions in the cafe,
00:20:30.06\00:20:32.49
Timmy, do you have a question?
00:20:32.53\00:20:34.43
Hi, there.
00:20:34.46\00:20:35.80
I'm so honored
00:20:35.83\00:20:38.13
to just get to sit and listen
to both of your guys' stories
00:20:38.17\00:20:41.04
and the authenticity
in which you share things
00:20:41.07\00:20:43.91
that usually people
keep hidden really well,
00:20:43.94\00:20:46.94
it's really a
privilege to get to be here.
00:20:46.98\00:20:49.81
I'm really curious
what your journey has been
00:20:49.84\00:20:52.68
from going from
the perspective of,
00:20:52.71\00:20:56.58
"I will never stop masturbating"
00:20:56.62\00:20:58.99
to where ever you
find yourself now.
00:20:59.02\00:21:01.59
I know sometimes
God takes things away
00:21:01.62\00:21:04.36
and sometimes He doesn't
00:21:04.39\00:21:05.73
and there's a journey
that is a part of that,
00:21:05.76\00:21:08.03
what is that been like for you?
00:21:08.06\00:21:09.53
Well, at first, it was
tough to give up just the toys
00:21:09.56\00:21:13.70
but through that,
00:21:13.74\00:21:15.17
that was the
really symbolic thing,
00:21:15.20\00:21:17.81
I think started
the whole journey
00:21:17.84\00:21:19.84
and like you said some
things fall off right away.
00:21:19.87\00:21:24.01
But there's other
things that take time
00:21:24.05\00:21:26.08
and so the masturbation
followed not long after that
00:21:26.11\00:21:29.85
and just like I had no
desire anymore after that.
00:21:29.88\00:21:34.06
And it was like,
00:21:34.09\00:21:35.82
it was just that
road, you know, He had me on
00:21:35.86\00:21:38.63
and, you know, the big step
00:21:38.66\00:21:40.56
of just getting
rid of the things
00:21:40.60\00:21:42.23
that were kind of
like triggers, you know,
00:21:42.26\00:21:45.20
and I think that's important
00:21:45.23\00:21:46.57
when we have
something that is a trigger
00:21:46.60\00:21:49.50
to recognize what
the trigger is, you know,
00:21:49.54\00:21:52.11
what is it that's
making me wanna do this.
00:21:52.14\00:21:54.34
'Cause sometimes
a trigger is stress,
00:21:54.38\00:21:56.91
sometimes it's anger,
00:21:56.95\00:21:58.35
sometimes it's insecurity,
that it's not a sexual trigger,
00:21:58.38\00:22:02.25
it is that this is
what I'm using to cope.
00:22:02.28\00:22:05.32
You know, I love those,
the questions, thank you, guys,
00:22:05.35\00:22:08.19
but I wanna say now
00:22:08.22\00:22:09.79
you're looking at
each other and saying,
00:22:09.82\00:22:11.76
how do we learn
to love each other?
00:22:11.79\00:22:15.23
How do I stay present?
00:22:15.26\00:22:16.60
How do I not go in my
head to where I typically go?
00:22:16.63\00:22:23.30
How did you guys do that?
00:22:23.34\00:22:24.67
'Cause God is gonna
teach you to fall in love.
00:22:24.71\00:22:28.81
Ask God several times,
what does that look like,
00:22:28.84\00:22:30.81
you know, trying to learn
00:22:30.85\00:22:32.18
what a healthy sexual
relationship looks like
00:22:32.21\00:22:34.22
and I have to admit
it's been a struggle
00:22:34.25\00:22:36.89
because I'm still trying
to unwire all that things
00:22:36.92\00:22:39.05
that have been in my head.
00:22:39.09\00:22:40.42
So for me it's been
really reading and learning
00:22:40.46\00:22:43.99
and trying to get
00:22:44.03\00:22:45.36
all the
information I can to learn,
00:22:45.39\00:22:46.93
what is a healthy
sexual relationship?
00:22:46.96\00:22:48.80
And it's just been,
it's been a journey still
00:22:48.83\00:22:50.80
and I'm still on a journey
learning and it's been...
00:22:50.83\00:22:54.00
And I love when you say that
00:22:54.04\00:22:55.64
'cause, you know, healthy means,
00:22:55.67\00:22:58.01
even laughing and loving
and playing and connecting,
00:22:58.04\00:23:01.71
so it's not just the act of sex
00:23:01.74\00:23:04.41
because pornography
just takes it down to,
00:23:04.45\00:23:06.98
excuse me, but an orgasm,
it's just that we go right,
00:23:07.02\00:23:09.85
this is what the goal is.
00:23:09.88\00:23:11.79
But in a relationship the goal
is to laugh with each other,
00:23:11.82\00:23:14.79
to love each other,
00:23:14.82\00:23:16.32
to step out in
the world and say,
00:23:16.36\00:23:17.93
"Doesn't it feel good the
way the sun hits our skin?"
00:23:17.96\00:23:20.20
A very sensual relationship
00:23:20.23\00:23:22.96
but it is really different
than what the Word says.
00:23:23.00\00:23:26.23
I'm gonna say too on that point,
00:23:26.27\00:23:28.20
the word 'self gratification's'
coming to my mind.
00:23:28.24\00:23:30.21
We really wanna please ourselves
00:23:30.24\00:23:31.77
in those moments,
00:23:31.81\00:23:33.14
we're now, we're two people
wanting to enjoy each other.
00:23:33.17\00:23:35.44
It's different.
00:23:35.48\00:23:36.81
It's totally different. Yeah.
00:23:36.85\00:23:38.45
So, you know, when we first
met and I just got to show this
00:23:38.48\00:23:42.22
for people that
haven't seen this,
00:23:42.25\00:23:44.42
we wrote a
program for the church,
00:23:44.45\00:23:45.79
it's called,
"Celebrating Life in Recovery."
00:23:45.82\00:23:47.29
Really talking about
not only sexual issues
00:23:47.32\00:23:49.99
but a number of different issues
00:23:50.03\00:23:51.49
and when I met you guys,
you had looked at this program
00:23:51.53\00:23:54.76
and decided to run
it in the community
00:23:54.80\00:23:57.83
and you went out in
the community and said,
00:23:57.87\00:24:00.40
"We're gonna run this
friendship support group,
00:24:00.44\00:24:03.04
talking about recovery issues."
00:24:03.07\00:24:04.87
And you went out
with your testimony,
00:24:04.91\00:24:07.58
openly shared with
people, this is who we are.
00:24:07.61\00:24:10.51
How did that feel?
00:24:10.55\00:24:12.65
How did it feel to go from,
00:24:12.68\00:24:14.68
"I don't even know
00:24:14.72\00:24:16.05
if we know what
a relationship is,
00:24:16.08\00:24:17.65
to where we are along
our journey in some way
00:24:17.69\00:24:20.46
and I wanna help someone else."
00:24:20.49\00:24:21.92
That was really like, I
prayed on this and I said,
00:24:21.96\00:24:25.76
"I just wanna know
what does this look like,
00:24:25.79\00:24:27.33
you know, I see the community.
00:24:27.36\00:24:28.70
I see the people
hurting. I see the pain."
00:24:28.73\00:24:30.70
And Proverbs,
talks about, you know,
00:24:30.73\00:24:33.57
"My people perish
with lack of vision."
00:24:33.60\00:24:35.74
And I thought, "Man,
00:24:35.77\00:24:37.11
what is the vision
for this community?
00:24:37.14\00:24:38.47
How can we help
this community heal?"
00:24:38.51\00:24:40.48
And the word
'addiction' came to my mind
00:24:40.51\00:24:43.11
and I had that confirmation
00:24:43.14\00:24:44.48
from another
co-worker at the time
00:24:44.51\00:24:46.35
and he said, "Man,
I wanna do something."
00:24:46.38\00:24:47.72
We got together and we talked
00:24:47.75\00:24:49.08
and another co-worker, she said,
00:24:49.12\00:24:50.49
"I have, you know,
something in my life,
00:24:50.52\00:24:52.52
it's struggling with addiction."
00:24:52.55\00:24:53.92
I'm like, "This is crazy."
00:24:53.96\00:24:55.29
Also I'm hearing
all ideas of addiction,
00:24:55.32\00:24:56.83
so we took this
00:24:56.86\00:24:58.19
before our church
board on this idea,
00:24:58.23\00:24:59.93
we weren't even,
scheduled even to speak.
00:24:59.96\00:25:02.06
I mean, this other gentleman,
00:25:02.10\00:25:03.43
we went and they just was like,
00:25:03.47\00:25:05.27
"Wow, we wanna do this. Yeah."
00:25:05.30\00:25:06.67
So we ended up
purchasing two of these kits.
00:25:06.70\00:25:09.74
We had, went out,
Janelle worked on some of the,
00:25:09.77\00:25:13.34
with what you guys
already had online...
00:25:13.38\00:25:14.71
Yeah.
00:25:14.74\00:25:16.08
Worked on some of
the promotional pieces,
00:25:16.11\00:25:17.45
we wended fliers,
00:25:17.48\00:25:18.81
I went to all
the major businesses
00:25:18.85\00:25:20.18
and the two bigger towns here,
00:25:20.22\00:25:21.98
and we got an amazing response
00:25:22.02\00:25:23.39
from people
saying, "You know what?
00:25:23.42\00:25:24.75
My so and so
struggles with this,
00:25:24.79\00:25:26.12
my family, my brother, sister,
00:25:26.15\00:25:28.09
they struggle
with these types of..."
00:25:28.12\00:25:29.72
Were you excited that...
00:25:29.76\00:25:31.86
To me, when we did this
in our church, the same,
00:25:31.89\00:25:34.83
but you go out in the community
00:25:34.86\00:25:36.20
and every other
person says, "Me too."
00:25:36.23\00:25:38.30
Yeah.
00:25:38.33\00:25:39.67
"Man, I don't even know
how to break free from this.
00:25:39.70\00:25:41.20
I'm stuck here or my
child or my husband..."
00:25:41.24\00:25:44.51
And everybody's saying,
you know, "I need this."
00:25:44.54\00:25:48.11
Were you surprised?
00:25:48.14\00:25:49.48
And what's the... To
me it's the saddest thing,
00:25:49.51\00:25:51.18
is they were
afraid to talk about.
00:25:51.21\00:25:52.55
Yeah, that's
what I was gonna say
00:25:52.58\00:25:53.92
is the fact that when
we would talk to people
00:25:53.95\00:25:56.25
we would stress any addiction
00:25:56.28\00:25:58.35
because, you know,
like you mentioned,
00:25:58.39\00:26:00.36
you know, how it
covers everything
00:26:00.39\00:26:02.39
and there's some things
00:26:02.42\00:26:03.76
that we don't automatically
think of as addictions.
00:26:03.79\00:26:05.53
Eating, works...
00:26:05.56\00:26:06.90
Right. Stealing.
00:26:06.93\00:26:08.26
Yeah.
00:26:08.30\00:26:09.63
The religious addictions,
yeah, gossip and just,
00:26:09.66\00:26:12.87
there's so many
areas of addiction
00:26:12.90\00:26:15.00
that we just don't
either want to admit
00:26:15.04\00:26:16.97
or don't think of,
00:26:17.01\00:26:18.37
the automatic ones are
drinking, smoking, drugs,
00:26:18.41\00:26:21.28
all that and but, you know,
00:26:21.31\00:26:22.84
automatically
that's what we'd hear a lot
00:26:22.88\00:26:24.61
when we went to
the community is,
00:26:24.65\00:26:25.98
"Oh, yeah, I have a
family member on drugs
00:26:26.01\00:26:28.08
and this and that."
00:26:28.12\00:26:29.45
And we said, you know,
00:26:29.48\00:26:31.02
that's something
that we wanna deal with
00:26:31.05\00:26:34.46
but we also wanna
deal with other things
00:26:34.49\00:26:36.02
that are more internal,
00:26:36.06\00:26:37.39
that people struggle with
because those were just scary.
00:26:37.43\00:26:40.56
Those were scary if,
you know, if they're there
00:26:40.60\00:26:42.33
and people don't deal with them.
00:26:42.36\00:26:43.70
Those are the scary
ones, especially, you know...
00:26:43.73\00:26:45.70
And they don't
get better and silent.
00:26:45.73\00:26:47.17
Exactly, yeah.
00:26:47.20\00:26:48.54
And, you know, what
we found a lot was that,
00:26:48.57\00:26:52.31
you know, we would
put the word out there
00:26:52.34\00:26:55.78
but, you know, we were a
little disappointed that,
00:26:55.81\00:26:58.88
you know, that we didn't have
00:26:58.91\00:27:01.18
the turnout that we
thought we would have
00:27:01.22\00:27:03.28
but God brought
the ones that needed it
00:27:03.32\00:27:05.05
and so we're just,
00:27:05.09\00:27:06.82
you know, you want so much
for people and you're like,
00:27:06.86\00:27:08.79
you know,
00:27:08.82\00:27:10.49
you see the plank in
the other person's eye
00:27:10.53\00:27:12.46
you know, the person, the
thing that's wrong with them
00:27:12.49\00:27:14.30
and it's like,
they don't see it,
00:27:14.33\00:27:15.66
they won't come
00:27:15.70\00:27:17.03
and they won't
be healed from this
00:27:17.07\00:27:18.40
and so but God brought the ones
00:27:18.43\00:27:21.00
that He wanted
to be there, so...
00:27:21.04\00:27:22.94
So for one, this
program is running
00:27:22.97\00:27:25.04
in different parts of the world.
00:27:25.07\00:27:27.24
Two percent of the
people that are responding
00:27:27.28\00:27:30.35
are hard core drug
addicts, two percent.
00:27:30.38\00:27:33.11
Most of them look
really good like you and I,
00:27:33.15\00:27:36.99
you know, most of them
have all this kind of stuff
00:27:37.02\00:27:38.95
or whatever
00:27:38.99\00:27:40.32
but one of the
things that I love
00:27:40.36\00:27:43.43
is the fact that it helps
00:27:43.46\00:27:44.79
even the person
that's leading out,
00:27:44.83\00:27:47.76
to get stronger
in their own healing.
00:27:47.80\00:27:49.76
So tell me what
it did for you guys,
00:27:49.80\00:27:52.00
just putting it together,
00:27:52.03\00:27:53.60
just reaching out in
the way that you did,
00:27:53.64\00:27:56.47
what was that like for you?
00:27:56.50\00:28:00.04
'Cause it's kind of like,
you're looking in a mirror
00:28:00.08\00:28:01.54
and you see there's
this dark spots in your heart
00:28:01.58\00:28:03.95
that you're still
trying to overcome.
00:28:03.98\00:28:05.31
I mean, you see that
00:28:05.35\00:28:06.98
and the cool thing
is getting in this class
00:28:07.02\00:28:08.68
and watching as
you're leading out,
00:28:08.72\00:28:10.05
you know, struggling with people
00:28:10.09\00:28:11.42
that are kind of quiet at first,
00:28:11.45\00:28:13.09
quiet as to I don't want to be
the one talking in this class,
00:28:13.12\00:28:14.62
you know.
00:28:14.66\00:28:15.99
But over time,
people as they participate,
00:28:16.02\00:28:17.86
they begin to realize,
"Okay, I can be comfortable,"
00:28:17.89\00:28:19.86
because we really stressed
in that class, you know,
00:28:19.89\00:28:21.90
that we're not to speak on,
00:28:21.93\00:28:23.47
you know,
what's going on here...
00:28:23.50\00:28:24.83
This is confidential.
00:28:24.87\00:28:26.37
Nobody's therapist,
we're here as friends.
00:28:26.40\00:28:28.30
Exactly. You're right.
00:28:28.34\00:28:29.67
And we made to be
stressed out every time
00:28:29.70\00:28:31.04
and we talked about and
people starting to break down,
00:28:31.07\00:28:32.47
you can see
people breaking down.
00:28:32.51\00:28:34.04
That was just amazing.
00:28:34.08\00:28:35.41
As a leader, to watch that
and see people stepping up,
00:28:35.44\00:28:38.11
wanting to
participate and get involved
00:28:38.15\00:28:40.05
and become leaders themselves.
00:28:40.08\00:28:41.55
And when you say break down,
00:28:41.58\00:28:42.92
you don't mean
psychologically break down...
00:28:42.95\00:28:44.29
No, no.
00:28:44.32\00:28:45.65
But just their
trust in those barriers...
00:28:45.69\00:28:47.02
Exactly.
00:28:47.06\00:28:48.39
Where they don't feel
like they can be themselves.
00:28:48.42\00:28:49.76
People decided to be themselves.
00:28:49.79\00:28:51.13
As the thing is, we as a people,
00:28:51.16\00:28:52.99
we tend to kind
of hide, like a mask,
00:28:53.03\00:28:56.30
we wear a mask, we
don't wanna to keep it real.
00:28:56.33\00:28:58.57
So we need to keep things real.
00:28:58.60\00:29:00.64
We're not really into it, sorry.
00:29:00.67\00:29:02.30
No worry.
00:29:02.34\00:29:03.67
I just enjoy about how,
00:29:03.71\00:29:05.97
in the program it encourages you
00:29:06.01\00:29:07.58
to share your testimony.
00:29:07.61\00:29:08.94
So that if somebody is there
00:29:08.98\00:29:10.31
that would
connect better with you,
00:29:10.35\00:29:13.08
would be more
willing to share their story
00:29:13.11\00:29:14.98
or to fill more of a connection,
00:29:15.02\00:29:17.55
you know, and
that kind of a thing,
00:29:17.59\00:29:18.92
so that was important for us
to share our own journey, so...
00:29:18.95\00:29:21.76
We're gonna go ahead
and break and come back.
00:29:21.79\00:29:23.59
When you guys
join us for the close
00:29:23.63\00:29:25.53
'cause I wanna stay with that,
00:29:25.56\00:29:26.96
'cause, Janelle,
that's so important.
00:29:27.00\00:29:29.50
When you are dealing
with amazing amount of stuff,
00:29:29.53\00:29:32.83
know that you don't have
to wait till you're ready.
00:29:32.87\00:29:35.04
Step up, help somebody
00:29:35.07\00:29:36.44
and in the
helping of someone else,
00:29:36.47\00:29:38.27
you will heal.
00:29:38.31\00:29:39.64
It's so cool.
00:29:39.67\00:29:41.01
We'll be right
back. Stay with us.
00:29:41.04\00:29:42.38