The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to addictive behavior.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome back.
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You were talking about marriage
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and we're talking
about healing in the end,
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you know, a lot of us
come, I know that I did,
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came from such a
really wounded dark place
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and I step into a relationship
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and we believe if I
can only love or be loved,
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all of that goes away
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and you guys have been
talking about that today,
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is this that and
that was your belief,
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is that once I fall in
love, once I have a partner.
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Even, Richie, when you
said that a little while ago,
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everything in you said, I
will never be alone again.
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Everything changes
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and what you found
out is that's not true,
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all of this stuff just
come up to the surface.
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Yeah.
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So I can start it all
over again and, you know,
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the story didn't stay there.
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Fortunately, we
wouldn't be here talking today
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but I was such a
blind contributor.
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Cheerfully blind,
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I would say willingly blind...
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Wanting to be blind.
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Oh, yeah, because
it's much easier for me
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to see the fault
in her and none in me
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and that played out in some
pretty ugly unfortunate ways.
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I remember specifically,
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one time as Timmi was starting
to meet with her mentors
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and starting to get
a new vision of what
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a healthy
relationship looked like,
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she started to say
thing like, you know,
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"This can't all be me."
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And I remember looking
at her and my response,
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out of my chosen blindness
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and my zero compassion score,
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all of those combining,
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my response was to her to say,
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"You know, I can see
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how it would be
really difficult for you
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to accept the responsibility
for the chaos of our marriage,
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after all these years,
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I can see how that would
be hard for you to carry that,
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why you want to transfer
some of that blame to me."
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Notice the compassion
on his face right now.
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Yeah.
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But even when you say
that 'cause, you know,
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but you were saying,
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"As a man of God, I
wanna enlighten you.
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This is you."
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Yes, honey, let me
tell you how it is.
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"Got it now.
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I've got this
figured out it's still you."
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It's you.
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This is your problem. Yeah.
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So as he's speaking,
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you know in
your heart of hearts,
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this is not true anymore.
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You're having hope
for the first time.
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Maybe, it is not
about only me and maybe,
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we can actually work this out
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but somebody does that
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and what is the first
feeling that you have?
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What do you wanna
say? And don't lie to me.
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I will not lie
to you. All right.
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Well, I would say, I
mean, truly as he's saying,
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there was confusion
rising, so I'm like,
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wait a minute and
there was, I mean,
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I was starting to
speak back in ways,
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I was still,
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I had to learn to be respectful.
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You know, tactful occasionally,
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but there was I
guess a inner fortitude
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that was rising of...
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This is not on me.
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This isn't on me
and I'm not gonna act,
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like I'm okay with it
being that it is and I think,
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I started getting angry...
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up till that point I would
say, Richie had been angrier.
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But that started a season
of me being more angry too.
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It's like, "No, I'm not gonna
take this anymore, actually..."
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And I have to say 'cause a
lot of times people will say,
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I've had people that
have come over my house
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and we've just spent a
week together just, kind of,
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processing some other stuff.
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But I have people that
come over and they say,
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"Well, if I get
angry, is that rebellion?"
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And it really isn't.
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It's like being
able to say that,
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for the first time in your life,
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somebody needs to
be angry for this child
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and confront those
lies and say, not anymore.
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And that is, kind of,
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a seed of healing even though
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it doesn't sound
like it at the time.
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Yeah. Yeah
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Or feel like it. It
doesn't feel like it.
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Especially to you. That's right.
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You're like, What
happened to my sweet little wife
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and why are you
saying this to me?
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Yeah.
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She's talking back
to me all of a sudden.
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'Cause clearly...
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I'm the spiritual
leader of the house...
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That never happened before.
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I think something that
we've learned even recently
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about anger though,
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is that anger is
a God given emotion
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for the purpose
of righting wrongs,
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it's about injustice,
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where it gets
confused and mixed up is,
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when it rises in me
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because I'm feeling that
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an injustice is being done to me
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but that's not
necessarily what's truth,
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and the lies I'm believing
are wrapped up in that.
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That's where anger gets
really destructive, you know,
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but anger for the
purpose of justice,
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is I think, I mean,
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that's what
Jesus did in a temple.
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It was, this is an injustice
of what they were doing
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to His Father's house
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and that's why
His anger wasn't sin
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but ours is not usually...
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Quite as
righteous. It's not righteous.
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And I think
that, you know, for us.
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I know for me, a lot of...
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might be for both of us,
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the anger that came up
was very self protective,
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you know, very...
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"I'm not gonna be
stepped on any more"
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kind of, an attitude.
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And that while maybe, maybe,
better than the alternative,
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maybe not.
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It's still not that I
would say, I'm partly...
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Like better than the silence
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It's still dysfunction. Right.
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It's just a
different side of maybe,
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a similar coin and so...
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But for a lot of
people including yourself,
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it definitely is a
stage not to be afraid of.
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You know, be
careful and in the stage,
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even as I'm
listening to you guys.
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It's like...
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it's really incredible
to have God to journal to
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or go back to and say,
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'cause I
remember there were times
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that I was so angry
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and I was so looking
at Brad in his arrogance,
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at times, in his
own issues at times
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and just journaling with God
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and I would start out
those journals horrible,
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like, no, no, no, no, no.
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And by the time
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He worked with me
through the Holy Spirit.
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I was saying, "Okay,
how can I be hurt by him?"
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So it really is, don't
be afraid of it but don't...
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you've got to
step into that stage.
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So you're right there.
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You're starting to
look at the injustice.
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You're starting to say,
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" Hey, this is
not all about me."
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Did he hear you at all?
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Did you hear me at all? No.
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I knew that was
gonna be the answer.
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It's like, "No, not at all."
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No, total push back for me.
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And like I
already said, you know,
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I can see why, you know,
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this would be a heavy
burden for you to carry
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the
responsibility of what you're
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bringing to our marriage.
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That was really my
posture for a couple years...
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Yeah.
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But you are bringing
the chaos in that house.
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Yeah, but because
I wouldn't back down.
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It actually
escalated the war in our home
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because I wouldn't just go,
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"Okay, fine" and go
back to my corner anymore.
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I said, "Nope. It's not on me."
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And so then Richie's
anger started getting higher too
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and that found us in a
pretty difficult position
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'cause we were
both pretty angry.
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All of this while we're
both in full time ministry.
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Right.
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So all of this is our reality,
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while we were
putting on our happy face
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and I'm standing up to preach
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or she's going to
serve women at the shelter.
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What I wanna say
to both of you is,
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I'm sorry that you
didn't find enough people
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that you could
just be honest with.
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I pray that's changing,
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that we start to be
able to talk to each other
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and I know that
you found mentors.
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But, you know,
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I wanna say even to
somebody that's breaking denial
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and there are
some incredible men
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that I know that had
to go through exactly
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what you had to go through,
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is that as
they're breaking denial
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and seen all that kind of stuff.
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The anger does escalate
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'cause they wanna
control everything,
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they wanna contain everything.
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If it's out of control,
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am I gonna be
left by myself again?
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What's gonna happen?
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What are people
gonna think about me?
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What about my ministry?
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I mean, all of
that kind of stuff
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and we just try
to fight to control.
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Right. Yep.
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And what you're finding
out, in this crazy time,
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is that didn't work.
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No, no. It didn't.
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So what worked?
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'Cause something
eventually worked.
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Well, I think, you know,
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what worked for
me was, you know,
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we've talked
previously about the mentors
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and starting to take at
my own journey and look at,
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where's the
saying you're coming from
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and looking at my story
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and walking back into my story
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and connecting
with that and saying,
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"Oh, that needs to be
grieved, I mean, that's sad."
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And so I need to
take time to be sad
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and grieve these
elements in my story.
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There were tragic
and as I've done that
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and I'm not done...
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So let me just go
back and somebody will say
00:08:07.12\00:08:09.15
and they've said it to me
a number of times is do we,
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do I have to go back to my
past and relive that stuff?
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And I wanna say, you're past,
you're dragging that right now,
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this is not your
past. It's in every pocket.
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You know, it's
destroying every relationship
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and so I don't think we
ever have to go back to our past
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but if we're dragging
that anger with us every day.
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That fear, that
loneliness, that contempt,
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all of that kind of stuff.
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God says, "I can't
even teach you about love
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because you have this
stuff that you're dragging."
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And there's
amazing research, you know,
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brain research
that talks about like,
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our limbic system.
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It knows no past or future.
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Everything is present
tense in our limbic system.
00:08:45.35\00:08:47.29
So when we're triggered
by something that happens
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relationally or
trauma or whatever,
00:08:49.76\00:08:52.13
it's all right now.
00:08:52.16\00:08:53.50
And the same thing,
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other research showing
that our body remembers,
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our body carries
memories, so none of it's past,
00:08:57.97\00:09:00.10
it's all with
us and it comes out
00:09:00.14\00:09:01.77
as physical maladies,
00:09:01.80\00:09:04.17
it comes out on
relational brokenness...
00:09:04.21\00:09:05.97
And even when you
say that, when I said,
00:09:06.01\00:09:08.24
Brad's breath on
my face and neck,
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all of the sudden,
00:09:10.95\00:09:12.28
I'm three years old
and being molested, right?
00:09:12.31\00:09:14.42
So when you say,
your body remembers.
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And God says, you know what?
00:09:17.05\00:09:18.92
When you bring that stuff to me,
00:09:18.95\00:09:20.62
I promise you,
00:09:20.66\00:09:22.12
I will bring healing
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but give it the time
and energy that it needs.
00:09:24.63\00:09:27.76
You can't skip the work.
00:09:27.80\00:09:29.73
Right. No, no.
00:09:29.76\00:09:31.10
So it's really
connecting the dots
00:09:31.13\00:09:32.83
in the storytelling and getting
in touch with my own story,
00:09:32.87\00:09:35.94
our stories, that for me,
00:09:35.97\00:09:38.54
the anger began to come down
00:09:38.57\00:09:40.71
and part of that was definitely
going to God in prayer,
00:09:40.74\00:09:43.48
changing the way
I prayed for me...
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The way you spoke to her?
00:09:45.41\00:09:46.75
Yeah, well, I'd
prayed for eight years,
00:09:46.78\00:09:48.92
that God would change to me.
00:09:48.95\00:09:52.19
And my mentor said,
00:09:52.22\00:09:53.56
"Hey, why don't you pray
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that God will teach
you to love her well?"
00:09:55.16\00:09:58.19
That was like a
new idea and again,
00:09:58.23\00:10:00.30
another prayer that
God's excited to answer
00:10:00.33\00:10:02.63
and so that's how the journey
began to change and the anger
00:10:02.66\00:10:05.37
for me was beginning to
connect with my story and say,
00:10:05.40\00:10:08.77
"Oh, when she does this,
00:10:08.80\00:10:10.67
it reminds me of when I was
a little boy and this happened"
00:10:10.71\00:10:13.48
and that's connecting there.
00:10:13.51\00:10:14.84
And as I made those connections,
00:10:14.88\00:10:16.44
the power started to
come out of the stories
00:10:16.48\00:10:17.91
and the anger
started to come down.
00:10:17.95\00:10:19.35
And the lies...
00:10:19.38\00:10:20.72
the lies start to
change. That's right.
00:10:20.75\00:10:23.52
We will be destroyed by the lies
00:10:23.55\00:10:25.42
that we tell ourselves,
00:10:25.45\00:10:27.16
until we believe the truth
and then the lie is voided out
00:10:27.19\00:10:30.03
and so it's like,
00:10:30.06\00:10:31.39
I think I love the
fact that when you said,
00:10:31.43\00:10:33.13
"When I started
looking at my own stuff,
00:10:33.16\00:10:35.23
when I started
to love her well."
00:10:35.26\00:10:37.23
That whole paradigm shift.
00:10:37.27\00:10:38.67
I'm shifting and you
started to feel that shift.
00:10:38.70\00:10:42.20
It's not about you anymore,
it's not your fault anymore.
00:10:42.24\00:10:44.51
Yeah, and I think,
00:10:44.54\00:10:45.87
part of that is choosing
to be on each other's team.
00:10:45.91\00:10:48.78
You know, because we can
blindly trigger each other
00:10:48.81\00:10:51.98
and just, kind of,
be indifferent about it.
00:10:52.01\00:10:53.92
Well, just stop it.
00:10:53.95\00:10:55.68
Well, I can't just stop it.
00:10:55.72\00:10:57.82
You know, and, you
know, for Richie, he tells,
00:10:57.85\00:11:01.52
in other show he told
about a story about his mom
00:11:01.56\00:11:04.13
just leaving for
long periods of time...
00:11:04.16\00:11:05.99
After she
threatened to kill herself.
00:11:06.03\00:11:07.36
Right, exactly.
00:11:07.40\00:11:08.73
Well, there are times martially,
00:11:08.76\00:11:10.20
I don't really
wanna be in his space.
00:11:10.23\00:11:12.43
And so my desire is
to just leave the house.
00:11:12.47\00:11:16.27
Well, what's that gonna
trigger in him and so but then,
00:11:16.30\00:11:20.44
it's how do we balance our needs
00:11:20.48\00:11:21.81
'cause the reality is,
00:11:21.84\00:11:23.18
I do need to get away
from the space we just created
00:11:23.21\00:11:26.31
and he needs to
know in his heart
00:11:26.35\00:11:29.75
that I am not leaving him.
00:11:29.78\00:11:31.75
And so we know we've
had times where I will say,
00:11:31.79\00:11:34.62
I need to leave.
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.22
I will be gone
for X amount of time
00:11:36.26\00:11:39.19
or whatever, you know,
00:11:39.23\00:11:40.56
but I'm not leaving you.
00:11:40.60\00:11:41.93
I'm...
00:11:41.96\00:11:43.30
where this is not a re-enactment
00:11:43.33\00:11:44.67
of your childhood.
00:11:44.70\00:11:46.03
I need to take a walk.
00:11:46.07\00:11:47.40
I'm coming back and, you know,
00:11:47.44\00:11:48.77
and that kind of thing
00:11:48.80\00:11:50.14
and I think that's
ways that we can be...
00:11:50.17\00:11:51.51
when we start knowing
each other's stories...
00:11:51.54\00:11:53.38
That's powerful. It is.
00:11:53.41\00:11:54.88
Because I know his
stories well enough to know that
00:11:54.91\00:11:57.05
I never wanna
step into that space
00:11:57.08\00:11:59.01
and cause that little boy, pain.
00:11:59.05\00:12:01.08
No, not to the place of denial
00:12:01.12\00:12:02.82
or enabling or any
of those things but,
00:12:02.85\00:12:05.12
I mean, there's ways
I can go about things
00:12:05.15\00:12:07.86
that don't have to
include hurting him.
00:12:07.89\00:12:09.66
Right.
00:12:09.69\00:12:11.03
Even when you're
saying that, is being able to,
00:12:11.06\00:12:13.26
at one point say,
"Can I care about that,
00:12:13.29\00:12:15.80
that what happened to you?"
00:12:15.83\00:12:17.17
Yeah.
00:12:17.20\00:12:18.53
And then can we step
into our relationship.
00:12:18.57\00:12:21.04
So I can't change
it. I can't pay for it.
00:12:21.07\00:12:23.74
I'm not your mom.
00:12:23.77\00:12:25.57
But I do care about that
and I love you saying that
00:12:25.61\00:12:28.34
'cause we cannot
disconnect each other
00:12:28.38\00:12:32.68
from the reality of our lives
00:12:32.71\00:12:35.08
but I can be aware of it.
00:12:35.12\00:12:36.69
Yep.
00:12:36.72\00:12:38.05
And something that I think like,
00:12:38.09\00:12:39.72
that I learned,
00:12:39.75\00:12:41.09
that made a
difference for her is
00:12:41.12\00:12:42.46
as we were starting
to learn new tools is,
00:12:42.49\00:12:44.99
I get angry, things that happen,
00:12:45.03\00:12:46.56
I still get angry lot
of time but I've learned...
00:12:46.59\00:12:48.60
Your default is. Yeah.
00:12:48.63\00:12:50.47
And I've learned though that
00:12:50.50\00:12:51.90
if I get angry and leave
00:12:51.93\00:12:53.97
and don't talk to her
00:12:54.00\00:12:55.34
and then come back and
act like nothing happened.
00:12:55.37\00:12:56.71
That's destructive.
00:12:56.74\00:12:58.07
But if I say,
"I'm feeling angry,
00:12:58.11\00:13:01.28
I need to take a walk.
00:13:01.31\00:13:02.64
I'll be back in 30
minutes and we'll pick this up."
00:13:02.68\00:13:05.01
She knows I'm not
leaving. I'm coming back.
00:13:05.05\00:13:06.58
We have an appointment
00:13:06.61\00:13:07.95
and I'm not gonna
slip it under the rug.
00:13:07.98\00:13:09.32
I can go, talk to God and pray
00:13:09.35\00:13:11.32
and complain about
this woman He's given me
00:13:11.35\00:13:13.76
and come back,
00:13:13.79\00:13:15.12
with Him having
spoken to my mind and say,
00:13:15.16\00:13:17.36
usually, you need
to go, listen to her
00:13:17.39\00:13:19.29
or whatever and we start
at a whole different place
00:13:19.33\00:13:22.26
but that was a skill that
began to take the energy out
00:13:22.30\00:13:25.20
of the fights,
00:13:25.23\00:13:26.74
for me and for her
00:13:26.77\00:13:28.10
as that was a
way I can minister...
00:13:28.14\00:13:29.57
And even when
you're saying that,
00:13:29.60\00:13:31.74
is that she's
from a divorce home.
00:13:31.77\00:13:33.51
Everybody's gone their own way
00:13:33.54\00:13:34.91
and she goes from place to place
00:13:34.94\00:13:36.38
and everybody acts
like nothing happened.
00:13:36.41\00:13:37.75
Right.
00:13:37.78\00:13:39.11
So for you to act
like, in her own home,
00:13:39.15\00:13:40.88
for this pattern to follow her,
00:13:40.92\00:13:42.62
it's almost like both of you
would just be screaming inside.
00:13:42.65\00:13:46.52
"I can't live out this pattern
for the rest of my life."
00:13:46.55\00:13:49.49
So when we
decide to do the work,
00:13:49.52\00:13:51.19
when we decide to
love each other well.
00:13:51.23\00:13:53.06
When we decide to get the tools
00:13:53.09\00:13:54.83
and stay present and
care about each other.
00:13:54.86\00:13:57.90
It's almost like those
wounds get to heal finally.
00:13:57.93\00:14:02.34
Well, it's kind of a rewiring
of the building, you know,
00:14:02.37\00:14:04.64
we've got this in building
that has been, you know,
00:14:04.67\00:14:08.04
through both fault and
no fault been wired poorly
00:14:08.08\00:14:11.65
and now we
bring it into marriage
00:14:11.68\00:14:13.01
and it's sending up
sparks all over the place.
00:14:13.05\00:14:15.22
You know, when Richie says,
00:14:15.25\00:14:16.92
I'm really feeling
defensive and angry right now
00:14:16.95\00:14:19.79
and I will be
back in half an hour.
00:14:19.82\00:14:22.42
And the first time he did that,
00:14:22.46\00:14:23.79
I went "What was that?"
00:14:23.83\00:14:26.49
Because, I mean,
00:14:26.53\00:14:27.86
that wasn't part of our dynamic,
00:14:27.90\00:14:29.56
that's not part of our cycle.
00:14:29.60\00:14:30.93
He goes, you know,
00:14:30.97\00:14:32.30
frustrated out the door
00:14:32.33\00:14:33.67
and I'm left
stewing in my own juices
00:14:33.70\00:14:35.10
and we come back and
tiptoe around each other
00:14:35.14\00:14:36.94
for a few days and then,
00:14:36.97\00:14:38.31
"Okay, enough time is gone by.
00:14:38.34\00:14:39.67
We'll act like
everything's good."
00:14:39.71\00:14:41.18
So when he left
saying, "I will come back,
00:14:41.21\00:14:43.68
I want to reengage this with you
00:14:43.71\00:14:45.28
but I'm not
doing it productively."
00:14:45.31\00:14:47.25
And then he did and I could,
00:14:47.28\00:14:48.68
you know, we as wives,
00:14:48.72\00:14:50.05
we can sense the space
our husbands are in it.
00:14:50.09\00:14:53.09
For Richie, there's a
usually a scowl right there.
00:14:53.12\00:14:55.79
If he's
frustrated and, you know,
00:14:55.82\00:14:59.06
he came back in,
that particular time
00:14:59.09\00:15:01.63
and his face was
calm and he said,
00:15:01.66\00:15:05.53
"I don't think
I've heard you yet.
00:15:05.57\00:15:07.60
Would you please start..."
00:15:07.64\00:15:08.97
Oh, shut up. I know...
00:15:09.00\00:15:10.34
That is still
sweet. No, I was floored.
00:15:10.37\00:15:12.67
I know. I was
like, wait a minute.
00:15:12.71\00:15:15.28
Is this is a trick? Exactly.
00:15:15.31\00:15:16.85
Actually, that was
part of my question but,
00:15:16.88\00:15:20.62
you know, I could
sense that it wasn't,
00:15:20.65\00:15:22.45
he was the
gentlemanly asking, you know,
00:15:22.48\00:15:25.45
"Can you tell me again
'cause I didn't get it."
00:15:25.49\00:15:28.49
And I'm like, and, you know,
00:15:28.52\00:15:30.93
when he came so
humbly like that,
00:15:30.96\00:15:32.53
it takes all the fire out of me.
00:15:32.56\00:15:34.00
I don't feel the
need to shoot him up
00:15:34.03\00:15:35.36
because he's coming, you know,
00:15:35.40\00:15:37.33
humble actually.
00:15:37.37\00:15:38.70
He actually wants
to hear you. He does.
00:15:38.73\00:15:40.34
And I think that when
we started doing that,
00:15:40.37\00:15:42.30
that's one thing, you
know, doing our own work,
00:15:42.34\00:15:45.14
our story work and
then giving each other space
00:15:45.17\00:15:48.94
but with a timeline,
00:15:48.98\00:15:50.91
so that we would come back.
00:15:50.95\00:15:52.28
That was really helpful.
00:15:52.31\00:15:53.65
That's amazing.
00:15:53.68\00:15:55.02
I wanna get back to this
00:15:55.05\00:15:56.38
but I know we have some
incredible people at the cafe,
00:15:56.42\00:15:58.55
that probably have
some questions for you.
00:15:58.59\00:16:00.76
So I wanna say,
"Man, what do you think?"
00:16:00.79\00:16:03.53
And can we start
here, with you, Christina,
00:16:03.56\00:16:08.13
and do you have any
comment or question,
00:16:08.16\00:16:10.83
there you have for our guest?
00:16:10.87\00:16:12.20
Absolutely.
00:16:12.23\00:16:13.77
I come from a broken home too.
00:16:13.80\00:16:15.67
My question for you guys...
00:16:15.70\00:16:17.04
your determination to
stay together is so strong.
00:16:17.07\00:16:21.74
Do you believe that's
00:16:21.78\00:16:23.11
because you came
from broken homes,
00:16:23.14\00:16:26.01
both of you,
00:16:26.05\00:16:27.38
you don't want to
repeat that pattern,
00:16:27.42\00:16:28.75
so you're
determined no matter what,
00:16:28.78\00:16:30.12
you're gonna stick
this out and make it work?
00:16:30.15\00:16:33.25
It's a great
question, Christina.
00:16:33.29\00:16:34.89
I think we've asked
ourselves some times.
00:16:34.92\00:16:38.19
Where did that come from?
00:16:38.23\00:16:39.59
And I don't know that
we know the whole answer.
00:16:39.63\00:16:42.16
We made some commitments
before we were married.
00:16:42.20\00:16:45.23
We said we will never
use the D. word in our home.
00:16:45.27\00:16:49.64
And I think we've
pretty well stuck to that
00:16:49.67\00:16:52.07
but there have been times,
00:16:52.11\00:16:53.58
when sometimes
me, sometimes Timmi,
00:16:53.61\00:16:55.61
you know, we've
gone, "I don't know.
00:16:55.64\00:16:58.21
I don't know if I
want to take anymore."
00:16:58.25\00:17:02.35
And I think for me at least,
00:17:02.38\00:17:08.32
that determination
comes from a couple of places.
00:17:08.36\00:17:11.16
God keeps calling me back
00:17:11.19\00:17:13.03
to right here is where
you need to be for my growth.
00:17:13.06\00:17:17.03
I need to stay in a relationship
00:17:17.07\00:17:18.40
with this woman
00:17:18.43\00:17:19.77
because that's who God
picked to help me grow up,
00:17:19.80\00:17:21.40
spiritually.
00:17:21.44\00:17:23.64
And the people
that I have around me,
00:17:23.67\00:17:28.04
do not give me a
pass and so I am,
00:17:28.08\00:17:31.28
I personally am
supported by men who will say,
00:17:31.31\00:17:34.68
"So what's your
part in this again?
00:17:34.72\00:17:36.48
And how are you gonna
love to me while through this?
00:17:36.52\00:17:38.92
And that builds or
buttresses my commitment
00:17:38.95\00:17:43.53
when it may lag
for me, personally.
00:17:43.56\00:17:45.96
And I love when you
say that and Christina,
00:17:45.99\00:17:48.83
I love the question
00:17:48.86\00:17:50.20
because there's a lot of times
00:17:50.23\00:17:51.67
where we have to make those
commitments with each other.
00:17:51.70\00:17:54.14
I'm gonna grow through
my relationship with Brad
00:17:54.17\00:17:58.17
and I don't wanna run.
00:17:58.21\00:17:59.71
I don't wanna run.
00:17:59.74\00:18:01.08
He doesn't wanna
run and so many times,
00:18:01.11\00:18:03.28
it would be easier to do that,
00:18:03.31\00:18:04.95
it would be easier to just say,
00:18:04.98\00:18:06.31
you know what?
00:18:06.35\00:18:07.68
We made a mistake
and head out of the door
00:18:07.72\00:18:09.98
but I really believe
that there is a God above,
00:18:10.02\00:18:12.62
that says, you know what?
00:18:12.65\00:18:13.99
I can actually
get you through that
00:18:14.02\00:18:15.36
and I'm not
talking about somebody
00:18:15.39\00:18:16.73
that's in obvious abuse,
00:18:16.76\00:18:18.09
being beat, you know,
00:18:18.13\00:18:19.79
having that all
that, kind of, craziness,
00:18:19.83\00:18:21.73
get yourself into a safe place
00:18:21.76\00:18:23.73
but I'm talking
about most of us.
00:18:23.77\00:18:26.27
God says, "I
can work with that."
00:18:26.30\00:18:28.90
You know, I know
that you have a question.
00:18:28.94\00:18:32.51
I've been in a
dating relationship
00:18:32.54\00:18:33.88
for a little over a year
00:18:33.91\00:18:35.24
and I was wondering
00:18:35.28\00:18:36.61
what advice you
would have for someone
00:18:36.64\00:18:38.18
in my situation, me personally,
00:18:38.21\00:18:40.68
I wanna know for myself
00:18:40.72\00:18:42.48
but specifically on
the issue of connection.
00:18:42.52\00:18:46.09
I like the partner story
00:18:46.12\00:18:47.46
where you guys said
you really connected a lot
00:18:47.49\00:18:48.92
while you were dating,
00:18:48.96\00:18:50.29
you've dreamed together
00:18:50.33\00:18:51.66
and things like
that but then it,
00:18:51.69\00:18:53.03
kind of, stopped,
00:18:53.06\00:18:54.43
when you got married
and I just want to know
00:18:54.46\00:18:56.50
like how do you
start that process
00:18:56.53\00:18:59.03
when you're dating
00:18:59.07\00:19:00.40
and to know how
to put, you know,
00:19:00.44\00:19:02.77
have it better when
you're married to connect?
00:19:02.80\00:19:05.07
Good question.
00:19:05.11\00:19:07.04
That's a good question.
00:19:07.08\00:19:08.44
I think, you know,
00:19:08.48\00:19:09.94
finding ways to play
together is really important
00:19:09.98\00:19:12.58
from a bonding standpoint.
00:19:12.61\00:19:14.85
You know, we
sometimes take that for granted.
00:19:14.88\00:19:16.48
I think, you know, of course,
00:19:16.52\00:19:18.22
we are going to do
things together but,
00:19:18.25\00:19:19.59
you know, really intentionally,
00:19:19.62\00:19:20.96
find ways that
build your relationship
00:19:20.99\00:19:22.96
that are just playful
00:19:22.99\00:19:24.33
because that will be
something to help carry you,
00:19:24.36\00:19:26.26
even from a neuro
biological standpoint,
00:19:26.29\00:19:30.70
it releases oxytocin
00:19:30.73\00:19:33.27
and other bonding chemicals
00:19:33.30\00:19:34.97
and as you go into marriage,
00:19:35.00\00:19:37.41
when the times get hard
00:19:37.44\00:19:38.77
and there's
stress and adrenaline,
00:19:38.81\00:19:41.04
having that platform or
foundation of connection
00:19:41.08\00:19:44.85
chemically as
well as actionally,
00:19:44.88\00:19:47.32
really, really helpful
00:19:47.35\00:19:49.28
and then choosing
as you get married,
00:19:49.32\00:19:51.42
you know, remember,
how we used to do that?
00:19:51.45\00:19:53.56
We liked that.
00:19:53.59\00:19:54.92
We need to do that even
00:19:54.96\00:19:56.29
if you don't like each
other so much at that moment,
00:19:56.32\00:19:58.06
to choose to do it anyways
00:19:58.09\00:20:00.16
'cause it kind of
brings some of that fun
00:20:00.20\00:20:01.86
and connection
into the hard times
00:20:01.90\00:20:04.80
'cause every
relationship is gonna hit
00:20:04.83\00:20:06.53
hard times period.
00:20:06.57\00:20:08.90
And so to have tools
already in place especially,
00:20:08.94\00:20:11.27
if you're intentionally saying,
we're building this tool,
00:20:11.31\00:20:13.78
so if we ever
get married someday,
00:20:13.81\00:20:15.74
we'll have it in our tool box.
00:20:15.78\00:20:17.61
I think that's a
really important thing to help
00:20:17.65\00:20:19.61
maintain a
connection for the long haul.
00:20:19.65\00:20:21.88
And we really have
people around you too,
00:20:21.92\00:20:24.02
when you play,
00:20:24.05\00:20:25.39
especially if you're
dating, play as a group,
00:20:25.42\00:20:28.52
get some young
adults or folks around you.
00:20:28.56\00:20:31.49
And Brad and I,
we do road biking,
00:20:31.53\00:20:34.20
we play golf
and we ski together.
00:20:34.23\00:20:37.23
You know, all of
that kind of stuff
00:20:37.27\00:20:38.60
and I didn't realize this
00:20:38.63\00:20:39.97
until I actually started to work
00:20:40.00\00:20:41.97
with couples more
and more, that part of...
00:20:42.00\00:20:44.74
for men, they feel connected
00:20:44.77\00:20:48.18
definitely, intimately,
00:20:48.21\00:20:49.54
when we're in that intimacy
but when they are playing,
00:20:49.58\00:20:53.42
when you are doing sports
00:20:53.45\00:20:55.12
and I had to find out from Brad.
00:20:55.15\00:20:56.69
We get a bike and I'm
thinking, "How fun is this.
00:20:56.72\00:20:59.29
We could ride
and talk and whatever
00:20:59.32\00:21:01.62
and he's thinking 'talk,'
00:21:01.66\00:21:02.99
we're doing, you know,
00:21:03.02\00:21:05.43
we're going from pole to
pole to see how fast we can go
00:21:05.46\00:21:07.83
and we're gonna try to do these,
00:21:07.86\00:21:09.20
we did a hundred
miles around like...
00:21:09.23\00:21:11.03
We wanna do it in this amount
of hours and I'm thinking,
00:21:11.07\00:21:13.90
we're gonna talk
and every time I talk,
00:21:13.94\00:21:15.44
he gets irritable.
00:21:15.47\00:21:16.81
So even find out
how your partner plays
00:21:16.84\00:21:19.27
'cause they're gonna
play different than you.
00:21:19.31\00:21:21.01
So it's a communication,
it's just such a big thing as,
00:21:21.04\00:21:24.51
"Who are you? Who am I?"
00:21:24.55\00:21:26.61
And every once a while,
00:21:26.65\00:21:27.98
when I make sure
that we're doing,
00:21:28.02\00:21:30.32
you know, trying to
get our fastest time.
00:21:30.35\00:21:32.52
There are times that
Brad will look at me and say,
00:21:32.55\00:21:34.49
"Let's just ride and talk
and I'm like, look at you."
00:21:34.52\00:21:38.59
I love you.
00:21:38.63\00:21:40.03
But it is that
learning to communicate.
00:21:40.06\00:21:42.50
Yeah, it is. You bet.
00:21:42.53\00:21:44.33
I was thinking
too that, you know,
00:21:44.37\00:21:46.67
if it's not
natural for you already
00:21:46.70\00:21:48.94
to have some of these
big dream conversations,
00:21:48.97\00:21:51.81
then do it unnaturally
00:21:51.84\00:21:53.21
but make a habit of
sharing your dreams together.
00:21:53.24\00:21:55.74
So you're gonna write
down, I mean, do you know...
00:21:55.78\00:21:57.95
I mean, obviously,
00:21:57.98\00:21:59.31
some of these questions
would be more appropriate
00:21:59.35\00:22:01.55
in different phases
of your relationship,
00:22:01.58\00:22:03.49
say if you're engaged.
00:22:03.52\00:22:04.85
I mean, do you know
00:22:04.89\00:22:06.89
what he thinks
about a big family
00:22:06.92\00:22:08.92
or small family?
00:22:08.96\00:22:10.83
You know, how do
you want spirituality
00:22:10.86\00:22:13.23
to look like in your life?
00:22:13.26\00:22:14.60
How do you want career
and family to interface?
00:22:14.63\00:22:16.63
Have these conversations
about what life is about.
00:22:16.67\00:22:19.37
What's important
and make that a habit
00:22:19.40\00:22:21.70
that you carry on into marriage.
00:22:21.74\00:22:23.27
And that keeps you
dreaming forward about
00:22:23.30\00:22:25.14
what life could be
00:22:25.17\00:22:26.51
in this beautiful
vision for life together
00:22:26.54\00:22:28.94
because that vision
might carry you through
00:22:28.98\00:22:30.98
some rougher spots,
00:22:31.01\00:22:32.35
when it's not like
you were hoping it would.
00:22:32.38\00:22:34.18
And, you know, you
talked earlier about, you know,
00:22:34.22\00:22:37.85
there are times
that red flags come up.
00:22:37.89\00:22:40.12
Don't ignore those,
00:22:40.16\00:22:41.49
if you get a red
flag and that flag says,
00:22:41.52\00:22:44.26
"You know what?
00:22:44.29\00:22:45.63
He wants to be single
and live in, you know,
00:22:45.66\00:22:50.77
this part of the world
and I want to have three kids
00:22:50.80\00:22:53.90
and settled in
this part of the world."
00:22:53.94\00:22:56.04
That's a red flag and you guys
have to really process that.
00:22:56.07\00:22:59.87
I loved when you guys
talked about, you know,
00:22:59.91\00:23:01.88
about the red flags.
00:23:01.91\00:23:03.28
We just cut the
top of that flag off,
00:23:03.31\00:23:05.81
so we didn't
even see him anymore.
00:23:05.85\00:23:07.22
You bet.
00:23:07.25\00:23:08.58
And, you know,
there were red flags
00:23:08.62\00:23:10.72
when we were dating.
00:23:10.75\00:23:12.09
Large ones actually,
00:23:12.12\00:23:13.46
and we actually didn't
entirely ask the right people.
00:23:13.49\00:23:16.32
We asked people who...
00:23:16.36\00:23:17.83
we said, you know,
"Hey, should we get married?
00:23:17.86\00:23:19.79
What do you think?"
00:23:19.83\00:23:21.16
You know, we had
people speaking into our lives
00:23:21.20\00:23:23.30
but we didn't
actually ask our friends,
00:23:23.33\00:23:25.47
who actually did lie with us
00:23:25.50\00:23:27.34
and there was several times
where people in our peer group,
00:23:27.37\00:23:32.17
as opposed to older peers.
00:23:32.21\00:23:34.34
Yeah.
00:23:34.38\00:23:35.71
You know, who were like,
00:23:35.74\00:23:37.51
what are you guys thinking?
00:23:37.55\00:23:38.88
Run.
00:23:38.91\00:23:40.25
You are doing bad
stuff to each other.
00:23:40.28\00:23:41.78
You guys just clash like
nobody's business and I'm like,
00:23:41.82\00:23:44.72
"Oh, but when we make up.
00:23:44.75\00:23:46.25
It's good." Right.
00:23:46.29\00:23:47.62
Yeah, not the best pattern.
00:23:47.66\00:23:50.16
"No, what do you know?"
00:23:50.19\00:23:51.53
And we really,
00:23:51.56\00:23:52.89
I know there was
at least two friends,
00:23:52.93\00:23:54.26
I dismissed them
out of turn and said,
00:23:54.30\00:23:56.13
"You just don't know
the beauty that we create
00:23:56.16\00:23:58.30
when we're doing good."
00:23:58.33\00:23:59.67
Which was true,
when we were doing good,
00:23:59.70\00:24:01.07
we were doing really good
00:24:01.10\00:24:02.44
but when we were doing
bad, we were just awful.
00:24:02.47\00:24:04.87
And so...
00:24:04.91\00:24:06.44
Painfully so.
00:24:06.47\00:24:07.81
Yeah, and I should
asked better questions of them
00:24:07.84\00:24:09.94
and think, "So what do you see?
00:24:09.98\00:24:11.31
What's it like?"
00:24:11.35\00:24:12.68
And actually
taking in what they said,
00:24:12.71\00:24:14.05
instead of just
dismissing them and saying,
00:24:14.08\00:24:15.85
"Yeah, what do you know?"
00:24:15.88\00:24:17.22
And that was like
00:24:17.25\00:24:18.59
the cutting off
of the red flags.
00:24:18.62\00:24:19.95
So I love what you're
saying is that, you know,
00:24:19.99\00:24:21.32
put a lot of people around you,
00:24:21.36\00:24:23.43
get that input from them
00:24:23.46\00:24:25.26
and even saying
that, "Man, I am so glad,
00:24:25.29\00:24:30.53
you guys didn't
run from each other."
00:24:30.57\00:24:32.50
'Cause what you
give now is very real
00:24:32.53\00:24:35.04
and it's very intense.
00:24:35.07\00:24:36.40
So, you know,
00:24:36.44\00:24:37.77
we're kind of coming to
the end of our time together
00:24:37.81\00:24:40.41
and so I want you to talk about
00:24:40.44\00:24:42.28
what is the coolest things
that have happened in your life
00:24:42.31\00:24:49.02
as you have been more
respectful to each other.
00:24:49.05\00:24:52.89
Allowed healing to happen,
00:24:52.92\00:24:54.82
dealt with anger and contempt
00:24:54.86\00:24:56.83
and all those kind of things.
00:24:56.86\00:24:58.19
What are some of the richness
in your life because of it?
00:24:58.23\00:25:01.50
You know, one of the things
that I think of, you know,
00:25:01.53\00:25:06.13
several years
into the turn around
00:25:06.17\00:25:08.10
as we call it,
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.47
I realized that, you know,
00:25:09.50\00:25:11.84
my greatest desire was to
have connection and intimacy
00:25:11.87\00:25:15.48
and not be alone or rejected
00:25:15.51\00:25:18.18
and I realized
through all the work
00:25:18.21\00:25:20.32
that we've been doing,
00:25:20.35\00:25:21.68
there was such
incredible connection.
00:25:21.72\00:25:24.39
Emotional, relational connection
00:25:24.42\00:25:26.69
and I thought, "Wow!
00:25:26.72\00:25:28.06
This is, I mean,
00:25:28.09\00:25:29.42
there were still challenge
of the physical intimacy
00:25:29.46\00:25:32.13
but I literally said,
00:25:32.16\00:25:33.50
if you never got
any better than this.
00:25:33.53\00:25:35.66
I'm a happy guy
00:25:35.70\00:25:37.03
because I feel so
connected to you emotionally
00:25:37.07\00:25:39.77
and this is great stuff,"
that was a high day to realize,
00:25:39.80\00:25:44.31
"wow!
00:25:44.34\00:25:45.67
something amazing
is happening here."
00:25:45.71\00:25:47.04
And even for...
00:25:47.08\00:25:48.81
as you're speaking,
00:25:48.84\00:25:50.18
I can see that
little boy in you saying,
00:25:50.21\00:25:51.98
you know, I'm
not gonna be alone.
00:25:52.01\00:25:53.48
I'm actually
gonna feel what it feels
00:25:53.52\00:25:54.95
like to be loved in this life.
00:25:54.98\00:25:58.12
That's you. It's a miracle.
00:25:58.15\00:25:59.52
I think the other
thing is realizing
00:25:59.55\00:26:01.02
that we really
fight for each other
00:26:01.06\00:26:02.99
and we still fight each other.
00:26:03.02\00:26:04.36
True 'cause we're human.
00:26:04.39\00:26:05.73
'Cause it gives
and that's the truth.
00:26:05.76\00:26:07.10
It is the truth.
00:26:07.13\00:26:08.46
You know, on bad days.
00:26:08.50\00:26:09.83
I just have to not be ashamed
00:26:09.86\00:26:11.20
to even call you up as my friend
00:26:11.23\00:26:12.57
and say, you know what?
00:26:12.60\00:26:13.94
Brad and I are
just at each other.
00:26:13.97\00:26:15.60
Can you spend some time with us?
00:26:15.64\00:26:17.24
Okay.
00:26:17.27\00:26:18.61
I don't have to be
ashamed of that anymore.
00:26:18.64\00:26:19.97
No, no,
00:26:20.01\00:26:21.34
and but to realize that
00:26:21.38\00:26:24.58
we're fighting
for each other like,
00:26:24.61\00:26:26.72
so there's been times where
we are not seeing eye to eye
00:26:26.75\00:26:30.35
and instead of going,
"You are my enemy going.
00:26:30.39\00:26:32.85
No, we have an enemy and
he is not gonna win here."
00:26:32.89\00:26:35.79
Right.
00:26:35.82\00:26:37.16
You know, and
sometimes that only that
00:26:37.19\00:26:39.23
one sentence is what's needed...
00:26:39.26\00:26:40.70
Amen.
00:26:40.73\00:26:42.06
To switch things around and go,
00:26:42.10\00:26:43.43
"I don't like you.
You are not my enemy."
00:26:43.47\00:26:45.10
Yeah.
00:26:45.13\00:26:46.47
And then to switch that,
00:26:46.50\00:26:47.84
so that we know
we're on each other's team.
00:26:47.87\00:26:49.27
We had a classic
example of this just recently,
00:26:49.30\00:26:51.71
you know, we've made
a lifelong commitment
00:26:51.74\00:26:54.18
to keep working on
growing our marriage.
00:26:54.21\00:26:56.08
So, I mean, so we
still have a counselor
00:26:56.11\00:26:58.28
and we work with her regularly.
00:26:58.31\00:26:59.65
So let's look...
00:26:59.68\00:27:01.02
I wanna stop and say,
let's come back to that
00:27:01.05\00:27:02.38
'cause we're gonna
come back for the close.
00:27:02.42\00:27:05.25
I'd like you guys to join me.
00:27:05.29\00:27:06.86
I think that
what you're gonna say
00:27:06.89\00:27:08.76
right now is gonna be so
important for us to hear.
00:27:08.79\00:27:11.99
So stay with us and
we'll be right back and man,
00:27:12.03\00:27:16.50
you do have an enemy
but it's not each other.
00:27:16.53\00:27:18.63
I love that.
00:27:18.67\00:27:20.00
We'll be right
back. Stay with us.
00:27:20.04\00:27:21.37