The following program
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discusses sensitive issues
related to addictive behaviour.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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I'd like to introduce you
to some friends of mine today.
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They have been
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through the very
worst in a relationship
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and struggle
with all of that means
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and the very best.
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It's an absolute
incredible story.
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So welcome to Celebrating
Life in Recovery with Cheri,
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I'm your host.
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And today, I pray this changes
your life, your relationship.
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Come and join us on the
cafe. It's an amazing story.
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I love going from week to week
and bringing different topics.
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This topic that
we're talking about today,
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and we've talked
about before is marriage
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and how do we get real enough.
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You know like I got married
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and I thought I was
going to be all of that.
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I was going to be the best wife,
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I was going to really,
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you know, I was just going
to wow Brad with everything
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that I brought to the table,
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and then he started
acting out a few times.
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I'm like "Who is this guy?"
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He does not deserve a
wife like me, you know,
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because we're so
arrogant with that
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and we're so
damage and we all come
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at relationships
in different way.
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And I remember God one
time had me look at Brad
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and I was thinking anything but,
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I want to be a
good wife at this point
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and had me look
at him and he said,
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"What if underneath
all that this is an Abraham
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or Isaac and this is Moses,"
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and he just doesn't know it
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and he's got to
see it in your eyes
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and I'm thinking in my eyes,
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I want to look in
the mirror and say,
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I don't think he's seen
any of that and God said,
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I want you to repent and I want
you to look at him differently.
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I want you to be
different towards him
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and I had no
idea what that meant.
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And so we're going to talk
to some friends of mine today,
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that I know have
different stories
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but similar experiences.
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We're trying to figure out
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how to be real
in a relationship.
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And I want to say
Richie and Timari Brower,
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thank you for joining us again.
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We've had you on before.
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I loved you since the first time
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I saw you in the
community doing the teaching.
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And so, when I
talked about that moment,
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when we decided to
get real in a relationship
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and God confronts us
about what we're thinking
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and what's going
through our head.
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I want you to go there
but first, Timmy, who are you?
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And where did you come
from long before you met him,
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you know, because we
all come from somewhere?
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Sure.
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No, I thought similar
to you coming into marriage
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that this is going to
be wonderful and great
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and had no concept
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that my past was
going to have any impact
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on our new
exciting and bright future
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that we were creating.
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I came from a pretty
dysfunctional background
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but thinking it
was really normal,
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and this is just
how family life is.
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And my parents
divorced when I was five,
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and my mom and I moved to
Hawaii from the West Coast
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and I started travelling
from Hawaii back to Seattle
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to visit my dad every summer
by myself when I was five,
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because that's just normal.
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And, you know, you make friends
on the airplane and all that.
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And what we didn't...
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both of my parents got
remarried really quickly,
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and so the first time
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I came back to my
dad's life was different.
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We were a farming family
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and the family
that had just splintered
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had become a new family.
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He had remarried.
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They were now four kids
and another one on the way
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and I was plunked
right down in the middle,
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and it was kind of
one of those scenarios
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where there is a lot more kids
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than there is
care available and...
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And even with you
coming back, you know,
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looking for whatever that image
of you and being daddy's girl
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and all that kind of stuff,
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you're looking to
move right back into that
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and it's not
spots not there anymore.
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No, that spot
was kind of blown up
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and you know and
I can say for my,
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you know, then new stepmother.
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I think she had a
really-really rough road to hoe.
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She was very isolated
out in the middle of nowhere
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with a whole passel of kids
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and now one
more that wasn't hers
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and it was, it was
a recipe for disaster.
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There the food was not always
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where it needed to
be like on the table
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that we doesn't
have lot and it wasn't
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because
necessarily we were poor,
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just no one was looking
out for those kind of things,
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and there was very
little adult supervision
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and so we got into a
fair bit of mischief.
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I think you could
use the word and it...
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When you talk about
mischief and I don't know
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if it's the same
in your household
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that it was in our
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'cause sometimes we could be
really cruel with each other.
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Yes, that kind of mischief.
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Yeah, 'cause sometimes
when you hear that word,
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you're thinking, oh, they played
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or they threw rocks into a
lake or they broke a window
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but it's like when
you get dysfunction
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and you get kids
that aren't supervised,
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they can really
terrorize each other.
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Yeah and there was,
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there was some
domestic violence involved too
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from the parental standpoint.
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And so we were
acting out the pain
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that we were
all experiencing of,
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you know, we
clashed, we didn't get along.
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I came in I think kind of
princess like, you know...
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And everybody is a threat,
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everybody else
getting attention.
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Exactly, exactly,
and so it was just,
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we were all
pitted against each other
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and we had moments
where we really got along
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but they were
few and far between.
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And so, I was kind of living
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a double life of my summer life,
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where everything was
chaotic and bad and then my...
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Laying out on the beach...
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Really, yes.
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In the light, I'm so
jealous, I'm thinking,
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I could see those two
worlds, really different worlds.
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Yes, they were and I
did like my Hawaii life,
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so don't get me wrong,
I lived in Hawaii twice
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and it's a good thing to
live near water and beaches,
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but it really created in my head
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a very easy way to
compartmentalise of,
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you know, you act
like everything is good
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even when it's not.
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Right.
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And that kind of became,
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I would say a theme for
a good portion of my life
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and I'm still
repenting of periodically,
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because I didn't know
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that having a
double life wasn't normal.
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Right.
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And so when we got married,
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I thought having a
double life was still normal.
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So what's really
interesting to me
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is that you ended up
doing that double life,
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went to school, in college,
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I know that you guys met at a...
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Summer camp.
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Summer camp and so,
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but you could do that very well,
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you could adapt really well.
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You could
disassociate really well.
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You can turn around on a dime
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and smile
everything's fine really well.
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And be pretty
proud of it too. Yeah.
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I mean it wasn't
just how I do it.
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It's like, oh, no, I did it
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and I did it well
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and there's a level of arrogance
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that I could be that slick.
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Yeah.
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I guess the reason
I'm kind of slowing down
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in the story right
here because I meet,
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I have so many
people that I love.
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And when I first
meet them, I can see that.
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And I'm thinking,
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I hope that God gets
you to repent of that,
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to walk away from that
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because you could see
underneath all of that stuff,
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those masks that this
is an incredible person,
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but we don't
know that, you know.
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And so you're
saying even meeting him,
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I could wear that mask easy.
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And I wouldn't
say it was something
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I did usually
intentionally, it was like, oh,
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I'm going to
put on my happy face
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it was just, you know,
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when it's the
lifestyle that you come from.
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You know you don't,
you don't notice it really
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when you switch
to you know being,
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oh, I'm not happy but,
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you know,
everything is falling apart
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but I'm going to look
like everything is pristine.
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And so, it wasn't
something I consciously,
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you know, set out to
manipulate or deceive.
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But I think that,
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I think those of us
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who grew up in a
really dysfunctional home,
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that's something
that we kind of wear
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a second skin
without even realizing it.
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And then we get
into relationships,
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it causes difficulty.
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So you guys meet, you...
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You're going to fall in love,
you're gonna do it all right.
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Of course, because
we're good like that.
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I love that because
it's just what who we are.
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Right, well, you're
working for the Lord.
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So do you have any other choice,
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I mean than to have
you happily ever after.
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So we got married
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and what we, what we didn't know
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is that the past
comes back to get you,
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and I have a background
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that includes
incest and child abuse
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and amongst all
of that and you know,
00:08:58.97\00:09:02.60
you would like to think
00:09:02.64\00:09:03.97
that sexual abuse just goes away
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because you're
out of the situation.
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And oh, if only that
were true but it's not.
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And so I brought
that in to our marriage
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not even realizing it
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because I didn't have...
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We got married, we
got engaged when I was 20
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and married right
after I turned 21.
00:09:19.29\00:09:21.69
And I was still in school,
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Richie was recently out of
seminary or pastoring already
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and we didn't have the language
to be able to wrap around.
00:09:26.63\00:09:30.63
Oh, oh, now what?
00:09:30.67\00:09:32.10
Right, because I know a
little bit about your journey
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and you decided not to,
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you know, some
people really do decide
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I want to do it right
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and we're not going to have sex,
00:09:43.41\00:09:44.75
and we're not
going to fool around,
00:09:44.78\00:09:46.25
and we're not going
to push those boundaries
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before our marriage,
so you did all of that.
00:09:48.05\00:09:50.45
We did, we were super careful
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and I'd like to say all
of that was for very chaste
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and moral reasons,
those were there too,
00:09:55.02\00:09:58.09
but I think that looking back
00:09:58.13\00:09:59.59
I think that
there was a part of me
00:09:59.63\00:10:01.00
that was really, really afraid
to even open Pandora's box.
00:10:01.03\00:10:04.43
And so, if we don't play there,
00:10:04.47\00:10:05.80
then I don't have
to worry about it,
00:10:05.83\00:10:07.27
again not a conscious decision
00:10:07.30\00:10:08.84
but so I was
really, really comfortable
00:10:08.87\00:10:11.17
having very little
physical relationship
00:10:11.21\00:10:14.74
because it felt safer,
00:10:14.78\00:10:16.48
but then we got married
00:10:16.51\00:10:18.25
and all of a sudden
Pandora's box is right there
00:10:18.28\00:10:22.02
and accessible and
it opened with force
00:10:22.05\00:10:26.52
I would say on our honeymoon.
00:10:26.55\00:10:28.19
So let me just say
because that's intense,
00:10:28.22\00:10:30.53
but did you know some
of her background stuff
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before you married?
00:10:32.96\00:10:34.30
Did you know about the
abuse? Did you know about...
00:10:34.33\00:10:36.97
No, there were some indicators
before we were married,
00:10:37.00\00:10:40.10
but I don't think
either of us connected the dots
00:10:40.14\00:10:42.84
before we were married
to say, oh, that means this,
00:10:42.87\00:10:46.04
so it was like
what's that about.
00:10:46.07\00:10:47.94
And we knew that there
were some things were messed up.
00:10:47.98\00:10:49.71
You know her family,
00:10:49.74\00:10:51.08
there's things
messed up in mine,
00:10:51.11\00:10:52.61
and we just kind of
thought that must be you know...
00:10:52.65\00:10:55.48
Love will make it all go away.
00:10:55.52\00:10:57.25
Yeah. I know.
00:10:57.29\00:10:59.02
And you know
there's some truth about
00:10:59.05\00:11:01.46
but we've got to do the work.
00:11:01.49\00:11:02.82
Yes. Sure.
00:11:02.86\00:11:04.19
So, you get
married honeymoon you said,
00:11:04.23\00:11:08.16
all the sudden
everything now by force.
00:11:08.20\00:11:11.03
What do you mean by that?
00:11:11.07\00:11:12.40
It means that we didn't
know that we just didn't know
00:11:12.43\00:11:15.00
what we didn't
know and so you know
00:11:15.04\00:11:17.81
we found physical intimacy
to be incredibly challenging.
00:11:17.84\00:11:24.05
You know it doesn't
happen like the movies boy howdy
00:11:24.08\00:11:27.45
and that's even,
I think that's true
00:11:27.48\00:11:30.09
just from an
inexperience standpoint,
00:11:30.12\00:11:32.25
let alone when
you add trauma to it
00:11:32.29\00:11:35.12
and so, you know,
00:11:35.16\00:11:37.06
when sex didn't
work on our honeymoon,
00:11:37.09\00:11:39.79
it started a cycle for us
of Richie feeling rejected
00:11:39.83\00:11:43.57
and abandoned and so, you
know, his response to that
00:11:43.60\00:11:47.24
was to get angry and
in the face of anger...
00:11:47.27\00:11:51.37
An abuse kid.
00:11:51.41\00:11:52.74
Yeah, I ran away
emotionally and so,
00:11:52.77\00:11:57.75
but then that made
him feel more abandoned
00:11:57.78\00:11:59.45
because I just
rejected and left him.
00:11:59.48\00:12:01.55
And so then he would,
you know, emotionally pursue
00:12:01.58\00:12:04.92
and then I would keep backing up
00:12:04.95\00:12:07.62
until the cougar hit the corner,
00:12:07.66\00:12:09.86
and then I would
come out with force
00:12:09.89\00:12:11.79
because they do
have a lot of words
00:12:11.83\00:12:13.29
and I did use them.
00:12:13.33\00:12:15.26
And even saying that
00:12:15.30\00:12:16.63
when someone
says, for you, Richie,
00:12:16.67\00:12:18.63
I'm sure is that you
are going to stay here,
00:12:18.67\00:12:20.44
and we're going
to work through this
00:12:20.47\00:12:21.80
and you're going to hear me,
00:12:21.84\00:12:23.17
and you see in her
eyes, she's already gone.
00:12:23.20\00:12:25.94
It is the
craziest thing for a couple
00:12:25.97\00:12:28.68
to want to scream
at each other like
00:12:28.71\00:12:31.15
this shouldn't be
happening like this.
00:12:31.18\00:12:33.85
I love you, you love me.
00:12:33.88\00:12:35.92
We can work this out
00:12:35.95\00:12:37.29
but we're saying it
in anger and in fear,
00:12:37.32\00:12:40.56
and nobody hears anybody.
00:12:40.59\00:12:42.02
Right. Yeah.
00:12:42.06\00:12:43.39
You were going to say something.
00:12:43.43\00:12:44.76
I was just going
to say, you know,
00:12:44.79\00:12:46.13
part of what was
has been so challenging
00:12:46.16\00:12:48.23
is that everything
that I knew or thought
00:12:48.26\00:12:52.73
would be an expression of love
00:12:52.77\00:12:55.14
because of her background
and her story was not love.
00:12:55.17\00:13:00.08
It didn't feel like love,
00:13:00.11\00:13:01.58
it wasn't received
as love and so that,
00:13:01.61\00:13:03.71
you know, it just
created this place
00:13:03.75\00:13:05.08
where I'm dealing
with my own feelings
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.22
of rejection and
abandonment touching my story,
00:13:07.25\00:13:09.72
and I'm trying to figure out
how to love her in her story,
00:13:09.75\00:13:13.66
but I don't understand her story
00:13:13.69\00:13:15.36
and everything I
try comes off wrong
00:13:15.39\00:13:17.93
and it's jut this
incredible hopeless mess.
00:13:17.96\00:13:21.30
It is incredible.
00:13:21.33\00:13:22.66
I remember and the first time
00:13:22.70\00:13:24.87
that that I felt Brad's breath
00:13:24.90\00:13:28.40
on my neck
00:13:28.44\00:13:30.21
and all the sudden it
triggered all of my abuse
00:13:30.24\00:13:33.14
and he was just leaning
over to kiss me and just say,
00:13:33.17\00:13:36.68
you know what, I just
love you and I was repulsed.
00:13:36.71\00:13:41.18
And both of us
knew at that moment
00:13:41.22\00:13:43.22
we're in trouble and
none of us had words,
00:13:43.25\00:13:45.69
and so that's
what you're saying,
00:13:45.72\00:13:47.06
it was that that real
00:13:47.09\00:13:48.66
that it was not
what he was saying,
00:13:48.69\00:13:50.09
it was not what he was
doing until the anger came in,
00:13:50.13\00:13:53.16
but it was like all of
this stuff is triggered.
00:13:53.19\00:13:55.40
Yeah, I know Richie
was, he was being tender,
00:13:55.43\00:13:57.57
he was being
thoughtful, he was...
00:13:57.60\00:13:59.63
I mean we were both
inexperienced but I mean,
00:13:59.67\00:14:03.10
but just
entering into that arena
00:14:03.14\00:14:05.37
which I had so
purposely chosen to stay out of.
00:14:05.41\00:14:09.31
And again unconsciously
00:14:09.34\00:14:10.91
so I didn't know that
the freight train was coming
00:14:10.95\00:14:14.05
and so that really set us up
00:14:14.08\00:14:16.69
for years of
that cycle of reject,
00:14:16.72\00:14:21.46
and Richie feeling
rejected and then abandoned
00:14:21.49\00:14:24.86
and then angry,
then me retreating.
00:14:24.89\00:14:27.40
And we just did
it back and forth
00:14:27.43\00:14:30.10
and that became our
crazy cycle of what we do
00:14:30.13\00:14:33.10
when we don't
know how to do better.
00:14:33.13\00:14:35.00
And when you say crazy psycho,
00:14:35.04\00:14:36.47
because I know
that at the same time
00:14:36.50\00:14:39.17
being in ministry,
00:14:39.21\00:14:40.54
you're still going to the church
00:14:40.58\00:14:42.01
and doing those gigs,
00:14:42.04\00:14:43.38
you're still ministering,
00:14:43.41\00:14:44.88
all of that kind of
stuff is still happening.
00:14:44.91\00:14:47.32
And yet inside
this is like a storm
00:14:47.35\00:14:51.22
that is, it won't go away.
00:14:51.25\00:14:52.59
That's right.
00:14:52.62\00:14:53.96
Well, and what's sad I
think is sometimes in the church
00:14:53.99\00:14:55.72
we have this idea
00:14:55.76\00:14:57.09
that if you're a
good Christian that,
00:14:57.13\00:14:59.33
that none of that, none
of that stuff will happen.
00:14:59.36\00:15:01.56
It won't, it won't be there,
God will just take it all away.
00:15:01.60\00:15:06.00
And so that,
00:15:06.03\00:15:07.57
I think I don't know
00:15:07.60\00:15:08.94
if anyone
intentionally taught me that,
00:15:08.97\00:15:10.31
that's just kind
of what I picked up
00:15:10.34\00:15:11.77
being living in
churchy environments.
00:15:11.81\00:15:14.71
All I have to do
is better devotions,
00:15:14.74\00:15:16.88
pray more, have good faith.
00:15:16.91\00:15:18.25
Right, exactly.
00:15:18.28\00:15:19.61
If I do those things,
00:15:19.65\00:15:20.98
my problems will
magically disappear.
00:15:21.02\00:15:22.35
We'll love each other well,
00:15:22.38\00:15:23.72
we'll go out and save the
world for Jesus and we didn't...
00:15:23.75\00:15:27.56
Did I tell you I love you
00:15:27.59\00:15:29.12
even when you say
that kind of stuff
00:15:29.16\00:15:30.83
I feel, I just love you
00:15:30.86\00:15:32.43
because I know
that you don't believe
00:15:32.46\00:15:34.66
that now but at that time
everything in you believe that.
00:15:34.70\00:15:37.63
You bet.
00:15:37.67\00:15:39.00
And that's where early
programming of oh, okay,
00:15:39.03\00:15:42.14
I don't know how to deal
with the chaos that is true.
00:15:42.17\00:15:44.87
So I will just put
on my ministry face
00:15:44.91\00:15:46.84
and we will go and act like
00:15:46.88\00:15:48.24
everything is very pristine
00:15:48.28\00:15:50.21
when in reality
00:15:50.25\00:15:51.95
we are falling
apart and this is,
00:15:51.98\00:15:54.48
you know, we've been
married for three weeks,
00:15:54.52\00:15:56.42
you know, I go back to school
00:15:56.45\00:15:58.09
and think oh, yeah, that's good.
00:15:58.12\00:15:59.59
And I was a theology major...
00:15:59.62\00:16:00.96
How was your honeymoon?
00:16:00.99\00:16:02.32
It was great no,
00:16:02.36\00:16:05.03
but of course
you don't say that...
00:16:05.06\00:16:07.93
To anybody. To anybody at all.
00:16:07.96\00:16:10.47
And so that, I
said we just had years
00:16:10.50\00:16:12.83
of really
committing to do better
00:16:12.87\00:16:15.47
but not having
the tools to know how,
00:16:15.50\00:16:17.51
we had no idea
00:16:17.54\00:16:19.11
how to make a
transition because between
00:16:19.14\00:16:21.98
where Richie
came from, you know,
00:16:22.01\00:16:23.48
which was a lot of chaos
as well and where I came from.
00:16:23.51\00:16:26.75
We both had a lot
of dysfunctional habits
00:16:26.78\00:16:29.15
that we didn't
know weren't right.
00:16:29.18\00:16:30.75
We believed a lot of
lies, because how can you.
00:16:30.79\00:16:34.22
You can't come out unscathed.
00:16:34.26\00:16:35.92
You know this idea
of resilient children
00:16:35.96\00:16:37.56
is both completely true and not
00:16:37.59\00:16:39.59
because resiliency suggests
00:16:39.63\00:16:40.96
that you're going to go
back to your original state,
00:16:41.00\00:16:43.67
it doesn't happen...
00:16:43.70\00:16:45.03
Because it wasn't
in the original state.
00:16:45.07\00:16:46.40
Right.
00:16:46.43\00:16:47.77
There wasn't
something that was healthy.
00:16:47.80\00:16:49.14
Exactly and it even changes
your DNA and your biology,
00:16:49.17\00:16:50.87
I've been reading
neuroscience slightly
00:16:50.91\00:16:52.34
and it's really amazing
00:16:52.37\00:16:53.71
but, you know,
00:16:53.74\00:16:55.08
you can't go back
to the original state
00:16:55.11\00:16:56.64
so you bring
all of that with you
00:16:56.68\00:16:59.25
both habitually as
well as the, you know,
00:16:59.28\00:17:02.68
what you saw modelled
00:17:02.72\00:17:04.39
and when you
bring it into marriage
00:17:04.42\00:17:05.75
and go yeah,
let's do a good job...
00:17:05.79\00:17:08.46
But you know even and I
know that both of you know this,
00:17:08.49\00:17:12.26
but I want to say this out loud
00:17:12.29\00:17:13.66
because it's we start to
even say, okay, I get it.
00:17:13.70\00:17:19.13
We just need to
talk to each other.
00:17:19.17\00:17:21.07
But we're talking to each
other through our dysfunction.
00:17:21.10\00:17:24.44
So you're not hearing
the things she's saying,
00:17:24.47\00:17:26.57
you're not
hearing a thing he says
00:17:26.61\00:17:28.21
and everybody is
triggered even more by that
00:17:28.24\00:17:30.75
all just wanting to dialogue
00:17:30.78\00:17:32.71
so it really is.
00:17:32.75\00:17:34.32
When we talk
about we have an enemy
00:17:34.35\00:17:35.88
that is very
strategic in saying,
00:17:35.92\00:17:37.82
you know what, you think
you're going to be one flesh,
00:17:37.85\00:17:39.69
hello, you know.
00:17:39.72\00:17:41.12
So we have an enemy
that says, I'm not...
00:17:41.16\00:17:42.52
It's going to be like
00:17:42.56\00:17:43.89
you're talking two
different languages
00:17:43.93\00:17:45.29
and I love what you guys say,
00:17:45.33\00:17:47.13
because you say and for
years we were in that vortex.
00:17:47.16\00:17:52.63
Actually we want to do
better but we didn't know how,
00:17:52.67\00:17:54.44
I mean like we used to talk
about the communication thing.
00:17:54.47\00:17:57.01
It was so bad when
we first got married.
00:17:57.04\00:17:58.71
Again, things you
don't know aren't normal.
00:17:58.74\00:18:00.61
I have a radio in my head
00:18:00.64\00:18:02.54
and when conflict starts to rise
00:18:02.58\00:18:04.45
so does the volume
of the radio in my head.
00:18:04.48\00:18:06.58
I can feel, I can
hear full symphonies,
00:18:06.61\00:18:09.02
full orchestras and his
voice would just go away.
00:18:09.05\00:18:12.55
So you dissociate really well.
00:18:12.59\00:18:14.09
I'm a pro learning
to repent of that too.
00:18:14.12\00:18:17.96
And, but, so he would come
to the end of a conversation
00:18:17.99\00:18:20.70
that had been highly conflictual
00:18:20.73\00:18:22.46
and he be like, and
he like, did you get it.
00:18:22.50\00:18:23.93
Have you like,
oh, I'm in trouble
00:18:23.97\00:18:25.57
because I had no idea
we just talked about it.
00:18:25.60\00:18:27.97
I just, I wasn't, I
wasn't, I went to my calm place
00:18:28.00\00:18:31.47
which again, I
learned really early
00:18:31.51\00:18:33.11
that's the safe
place to be chaos can go.
00:18:33.14\00:18:35.71
But if you go into the
calm place in your head,
00:18:35.74\00:18:37.25
you're going to be okay.
00:18:37.28\00:18:38.61
And, you know, I'm
looking at you, Richie,
00:18:38.65\00:18:39.98
knowing that you
spent your life alone
00:18:40.02\00:18:42.52
wanting to
connect and feeling like
00:18:42.55\00:18:44.95
you're not good enough,
I'll never be good enough.
00:18:44.99\00:18:47.16
So when she
disappears, you are alone.
00:18:47.19\00:18:49.76
Yeah, it just felt like,
well, when we tell our story,
00:18:49.79\00:18:52.79
you know, I talk
about how when I met her,
00:18:52.83\00:18:55.46
I felt the
aloneness begin to leave
00:18:55.50\00:18:57.87
and I thought oh,
00:18:57.90\00:18:59.23
I could never be alone again,
00:18:59.27\00:19:00.94
that could not be my reality
00:19:00.97\00:19:02.30
and then we got married
00:19:02.34\00:19:04.04
and I found
myself right next to her,
00:19:04.07\00:19:06.44
but completely alone,
and it wasn't just me,
00:19:06.47\00:19:08.91
she was alone too.
00:19:08.94\00:19:10.28
And the amazing thing
was we were great actors.
00:19:10.31\00:19:12.78
So while all of
this was going on,
00:19:12.81\00:19:14.95
I remember we went to
some meetings one day,
00:19:14.98\00:19:16.92
and a good friend of ours
saw us comes through the doors
00:19:16.95\00:19:19.02
this meeting any comes and
he's had his hand and says,
00:19:19.05\00:19:21.46
"Oh, you two are
just the perfect couple.
00:19:21.49\00:19:24.09
You're just the perfect couple."
00:19:24.13\00:19:25.59
And we've just been
fighting in the car and we were,
00:19:25.63\00:19:29.43
you know, as Timmy said,
00:19:29.46\00:19:30.80
you don't know
what you don't know.
00:19:30.83\00:19:32.17
We were trying to act,
we just were good actors
00:19:32.20\00:19:34.70
and we were playing the part.
00:19:34.74\00:19:36.07
And you've learned
it your whole life,
00:19:36.10\00:19:37.44
your whole life.
00:19:37.47\00:19:38.81
The whole life set
you up for this role.
00:19:38.84\00:19:40.31
Yep. Yep.
00:19:40.34\00:19:41.81
But this role kills us. Yes.
00:19:41.84\00:19:44.18
So you are alone.
You're feeling hopeless.
00:19:44.21\00:19:48.02
You're trying to
do this by yourself.
00:19:48.05\00:19:49.55
You're working harder
probably doing more jobs,
00:19:49.58\00:19:53.22
setting up more ministry things,
00:19:53.25\00:19:54.92
because I don't
know what to do here.
00:19:54.96\00:19:57.26
So what happens?
00:19:57.29\00:19:59.13
Well, we start church planting
00:19:59.16\00:20:01.76
because that's
a very peaceful...
00:20:01.80\00:20:03.13
That's exactly
what you should do next.
00:20:03.16\00:20:04.63
That's exactly
what we should do next
00:20:04.67\00:20:07.34
and it was
completely providential
00:20:07.37\00:20:08.97
what God did.
00:20:09.00\00:20:10.91
It started out with
a negative conversation
00:20:10.94\00:20:14.74
which unfortunately much impetus
00:20:14.78\00:20:17.35
can come from
negative conversations
00:20:17.38\00:20:19.31
but which is like
00:20:19.35\00:20:21.08
you just need
to get a job, okay.
00:20:21.12\00:20:23.25
I was in school, he's
like you need to get a job,
00:20:23.28\00:20:24.89
I'm like fine,
I'll get a job then.
00:20:24.92\00:20:27.32
And with that
attitude and head bubble and...
00:20:27.36\00:20:31.59
And so I found a job
at a homeless shelter
00:20:31.63\00:20:34.16
for women children
non-denominational.
00:20:34.20\00:20:37.07
And I was going to go
save a different world,
00:20:37.10\00:20:39.87
because this
world wasn't working,
00:20:39.90\00:20:41.64
and I got there and didn't know
00:20:41.67\00:20:44.77
that I had real
issues with women.
00:20:44.81\00:20:46.61
I didn't know that.
00:20:46.64\00:20:47.98
And now I'm
working in an environment
00:20:48.01\00:20:49.34
where literally there's
roughly 60 women and that's all.
00:20:49.38\00:20:52.45
So I'd just say
just for women to me
00:20:52.48\00:20:55.92
because a lot of
people don't touch on this
00:20:55.95\00:20:57.59
is when we're damaging
and families that break up
00:20:57.62\00:21:00.92
and divorces and
all that kind of stuff.
00:21:00.96\00:21:02.92
I don't think we realize
all of those women issues
00:21:02.96\00:21:05.99
and mother issues
and that disconnect
00:21:06.03\00:21:08.50
and God is saying,
00:21:08.53\00:21:10.47
"You
surrendering yourself to me,
00:21:10.50\00:21:12.37
and I have to go
to all of those places
00:21:12.40\00:21:15.07
and get you to
trust me to open that up,"
00:21:15.10\00:21:17.47
and so for him to set you up
00:21:17.51\00:21:19.64
where you are
surrounded by women, that is...
00:21:19.67\00:21:22.44
I'm just proud of God,
00:21:22.48\00:21:23.81
I want to kiss
him all over the face.
00:21:23.85\00:21:25.18
I want to say how do
you do that where you,
00:21:25.21\00:21:27.82
it's not a forced healing.
00:21:27.85\00:21:29.98
But he says,
"You're asking for healing
00:21:30.02\00:21:31.45
and I'm going to have
00:21:31.49\00:21:32.82
to take you through
some painful places."
00:21:32.85\00:21:35.36
And he put such beautiful
amazing women in my face,
00:21:35.39\00:21:39.06
in my face.
00:21:39.09\00:21:41.20
And I mean literally
00:21:41.23\00:21:44.20
you know ones who would say,
00:21:44.23\00:21:45.70
"Honey, let me
just pray for you,"
00:21:45.73\00:21:47.07
and would go like this and
they want to hold my hands.
00:21:47.10\00:21:49.70
Yeah, it's like, well, I'm good.
00:21:49.74\00:21:51.31
Yeah, I'm great, thanks,
00:21:51.34\00:21:52.67
you can pray on
your side of the room.
00:21:52.71\00:21:54.24
And of course, I
didn't go of course,
00:21:54.28\00:21:57.15
but inside I'm going...
00:21:57.18\00:21:58.78
I don't know how to be touched,
00:21:58.81\00:22:00.15
I don't know how
to open up that way.
00:22:00.18\00:22:01.52
Well, certainly not like that,
00:22:01.55\00:22:02.92
I mean this whole mixing
of spiritual relationships
00:22:02.95\00:22:05.39
and real life
thing I've never tried
00:22:05.42\00:22:07.22
that before and it was,
it was messing with my facade
00:22:07.26\00:22:11.66
because if my thought
is, my facade is pristine,
00:22:11.69\00:22:15.16
and then now you're
trying to enter past that,
00:22:15.20\00:22:17.20
what does that
do and that created,
00:22:17.23\00:22:20.54
I would say more chaos at home
00:22:20.57\00:22:22.90
because it disrupted me
and I didn't know what to do.
00:22:22.94\00:22:26.01
And so, you know,
00:22:26.04\00:22:27.61
I came home more disrupted
00:22:27.64\00:22:29.54
and that did not
help our relationship.
00:22:29.58\00:22:33.62
There was so much pressure with,
00:22:33.65\00:22:36.22
you know, what was
going on in her story
00:22:36.25\00:22:38.15
and then our church plant
was harder than I had thought.
00:22:38.19\00:22:41.09
We've kind of been
the golden children
00:22:41.12\00:22:42.72
so everything we
touch would turn to gold
00:22:42.76\00:22:44.09
in this project...
00:22:44.13\00:22:45.46
No, it's not.
00:22:45.49\00:22:46.83
It was hard work and it was
not taken off like a rocket ship
00:22:46.86\00:22:49.90
and so everything was
just a pressure cooker
00:22:49.93\00:22:52.77
and crushing us
both in our own areas
00:22:52.80\00:22:55.70
of brokenness and woundedness,
00:22:55.74\00:22:57.17
and we had no idea
that's what was going on
00:22:57.21\00:22:59.47
but that's what was happening.
00:22:59.51\00:23:00.84
That was happening and
it's really interesting
00:23:00.88\00:23:03.24
when God starts to allow
you to get touched by someone
00:23:03.28\00:23:07.02
and then you feel a little taste
00:23:07.05\00:23:09.62
of what intimacy would be like
00:23:09.65\00:23:11.72
and now you wanted in your home.
00:23:11.75\00:23:14.16
Yeah.
00:23:14.19\00:23:15.52
But we didn't
have that and we...
00:23:15.56\00:23:18.29
I wouldn't say that, yeah,
00:23:18.33\00:23:19.89
we didn't know the
depths of what we didn't have
00:23:19.93\00:23:22.63
because our
templates were so broken.
00:23:22.66\00:23:25.83
You know we sometimes
make a joke, you know,
00:23:25.87\00:23:27.27
sometimes those
red flags that come up.
00:23:27.30\00:23:29.44
They've been
broken off at the bottom
00:23:29.47\00:23:31.04
so they can wag
as much as they want.
00:23:31.07\00:23:32.84
You're never going to see him
00:23:32.87\00:23:34.21
because they're
not there anymore.
00:23:34.24\00:23:35.74
And so, you know,
00:23:35.78\00:23:38.21
we found ourselves
working really hard
00:23:38.25\00:23:41.48
and really trying to love well.
00:23:41.52\00:23:43.39
I mean I can say we had no tools
00:23:43.42\00:23:45.75
but we were
determined and I think,
00:23:45.79\00:23:47.82
if I were to say
that if there is anything
00:23:47.86\00:23:49.46
that God infused into
us during that season,
00:23:49.49\00:23:52.29
it was just perseverance
because we tried everything,
00:23:52.33\00:23:55.86
we read so many
books, we were so determined.
00:23:55.90\00:23:58.90
I think I can truthfully
say, we turned over every stone
00:23:58.93\00:24:01.90
trying to figure out
is there a better way
00:24:01.94\00:24:03.91
or is this really
all there is to hope for.
00:24:03.94\00:24:06.88
And so what you
are saying is that man,
00:24:06.91\00:24:10.01
we have to heal,
it has to be real.
00:24:10.05\00:24:13.88
And I love you
know because, Richie,
00:24:13.92\00:24:15.38
we talked to you
on another program
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.75
when you talked about,
00:24:16.79\00:24:18.12
you eventually grab some mentors
00:24:18.15\00:24:19.49
did all that kind of stuff.
00:24:19.52\00:24:20.86
These women were life changing
00:24:20.89\00:24:22.99
and so God really
started to change things
00:24:23.02\00:24:25.29
but you said
something at one point
00:24:25.33\00:24:28.53
about contempt and
anger and those kind of things
00:24:28.56\00:24:33.17
because those are some
real big things bitterness
00:24:33.20\00:24:35.90
where all the sudden,
00:24:35.94\00:24:37.27
I'm looking at you
and I hate the fact
00:24:37.31\00:24:38.84
that I have to confront
all this and it's your fault,
00:24:38.87\00:24:42.18
because we tend in relationships
00:24:42.21\00:24:43.95
to really blame
each other, you're crazy.
00:24:43.98\00:24:46.82
You brought all this stuff.
00:24:46.85\00:24:48.38
And so, how do you
get past that stage
00:24:48.42\00:24:50.49
because I know
you're not there now.
00:24:50.52\00:24:52.22
It's true, we're not.
00:24:52.25\00:24:54.12
You know, it look
different for both of us.
00:24:54.16\00:24:57.13
Like for me,
00:24:57.16\00:24:58.49
for a lot of our
marriage we just kind of,
00:24:58.53\00:25:00.10
we agreed that Timmy
was really the issue right,
00:25:00.13\00:25:02.83
because of her past and stuff
00:25:02.86\00:25:04.20
and there was
really very little light
00:25:04.23\00:25:05.97
on my story for a lot,
00:25:06.00\00:25:07.74
first eight and half
years of our marriage.
00:25:07.77\00:25:09.67
And so, I don't know
00:25:09.70\00:25:11.77
if I would have been thinking
00:25:11.81\00:25:13.54
about this word
contempt is that how I felt
00:25:13.58\00:25:15.54
but I definitely
was very comfortable
00:25:15.58\00:25:17.81
and happy to believe
00:25:17.85\00:25:19.18
that it was all
her issue, right.
00:25:19.21\00:25:21.12
Because this wasn't something
00:25:21.15\00:25:22.48
and we're going to
break and then come back
00:25:22.52\00:25:24.15
but this wasn't something
that you pretended to believe,
00:25:24.19\00:25:28.12
it wasn't that
you were in denial
00:25:28.16\00:25:30.43
and hiding this from her
00:25:30.46\00:25:31.79
that you literally
felt this was your issue.
00:25:31.83\00:25:34.73
If you got your stuff
together, we would be okay.
00:25:34.76\00:25:37.80
So we're gonna take a break
00:25:37.83\00:25:39.17
and I want to say for any couple
00:25:39.20\00:25:40.64
out there that is saying
right now me too, that's us.
00:25:40.67\00:25:45.44
You know that kind of
thing is that, it is amazing
00:25:45.47\00:25:48.68
when we can
break denial and say,
00:25:48.71\00:25:50.58
"God, can you fix this."
00:25:50.61\00:25:52.38
And if you shut your
eyes right now and just say,
00:25:52.41\00:25:54.22
God, can you fix this, you
will hear the sweetest yes,
00:25:54.25\00:25:58.92
you ever heard.
00:25:58.95\00:26:00.29
And so we would be right
back because I want to hear.
00:26:00.32\00:26:02.09
I want to let you see
the rest of their journey
00:26:02.12\00:26:05.39
and what God Himself
could do in a relationship.
00:26:05.43\00:26:07.66
It is absolutely
amazing. Be right back.
00:26:07.70\00:26:10.40