The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to addictive behavior.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome back I love, you know,
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I got to say
both Richie and Timmy,
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what I love about who
you are and your ministry
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and what you bring
is that you are so real
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and for whatever
reason you made a decision
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somewhere just to be that.
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We talked before the break
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about your
journey from childhood
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and then how difficult that was
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being adopted by a family
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that kind of taught you
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a little bit more
about relationships
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and the people
that mentored you.
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When you guys met
how crazy that was
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even though you wanted
the kind of happy ever after
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and the sunset on the beach
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and all that romantic intimacy
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that didn't happen for you
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in the first year
was not that easy.
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So we're right
there in the first year
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confused stepping into ministry
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trying to figure out, you know,
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what do we do now?
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So talk a little
bit more about that?
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It was, you know also
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we're figuring out
the pastoral ministry part
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but it's sometimes
a lot easier for me
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as a guy to figure out
the work side of my life
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than to figure out the
relational side of my life
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and that's pretty
much what I did...
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I know how to do.
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I can figure, I can do this,
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but I don't
know what to do here.
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And so we keep trying
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to figure
things out relationally
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and even sexually and it just,
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it go up in
flames over and over.
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For a guy that's
a pretty big deal.
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It says a lot about, you know,
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how much of a man am
I and all these things
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and so there's a
lot of connecting
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to other parts of my story.
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I'm rejected again,
I'm abandoned again,
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I'm not enough
again. Here I'm alone again.
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And so that vow that I had made,
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I'm never going be
depended on anybody
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starts surfacing
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and for me came
up is lots of anger,
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explosive anger about whatever.
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And we don't even know...
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When you said that,
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I don't think that as a woman
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we have any idea when men can't
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or don't connect sexually
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when somehow
there's a rift in there,
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every single thing
that you define yourself
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by is affected
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and we don't know who to ask.
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Nobody talks about that stuff.
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That's right. Yeah.
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So there we are and so
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basically we were
three and a half years
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in this district
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and into our
marriage and saying,
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you know this isn't working
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and somewhere in
that time we reached out
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Timmy did I guess
really to a counselor
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for the first time
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and said, man, we
got to do something,
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but we really didn't
get any traction there.
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So that's just like, Timmy,
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what's really
interesting about that
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and I don't know about you,
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but I come into a church that
didn't believe in counseling.
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So and I'm crazy ass, right.
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So I'm thinking,
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so if you don't
believe in counseling,
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where do I go.
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But what you are saying is
that my pain level was so high,
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the disconnect was so
high, I had no choice.
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And so even for people
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that are struggling
with that part of the story
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is find somebody
that's Christian,
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find somebody that
you believe their journey
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and sit down in front of them
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and just start talking
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because we need each other.
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We do and especially
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pastoring is a
very isolating position
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because and I was
21 when we got married,
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two weeks into 21
and I mean I was a baby
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and we were in such
a beautiful district.
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You could not have asked
for more nurturing kind people
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that we had the
privilege of ministering to,
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but we didn't know
where you're supposed to go,
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what you're
supposed to do, like I said,
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we only tried the
doctor route you know.
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If things aren't working
physically then you, you know,
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you go to a doctor.
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You know, well,
there's nothing wrong.
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Okay, well...
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So what's the next stop?
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And you do want to get
on the platform, excuse me,
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but how is your sex life?
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Right.
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It's a weird way
to start a sermon.
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Or end.
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Or end,
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it's like being able to
say there are things that
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nobody really talks
about and so you're saying,
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you know what,
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we're not going to survive
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unless somebody
actually starts to talk to us.
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And so I did seek
someone out merely
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because I had no
idea who to talk to
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and I was actually ironically
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really against
counselors as well,
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because only weak
people go to counselors,
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missing the point
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that I was actually
in school to become one.
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There was a disconnect there.
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Yeah.
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But, and I was
really concerned that after,
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you know, I think I saw her
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seven or eight times.
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It didn't fix everything.
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Can you believe it?
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That's too funny.
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No, it was not funny.
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No, you look at
as we expect that,
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wait, I just paid you,
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I should feel fine.
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And, but,
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and we may have seen her more
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but we were moved to a new town
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in a different state to
pastor a new congregation
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and so we went in
there going, okay, well,
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everything's falling
apart but we've been moved.
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So we're going to
keep doing the Lord's work
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and we'll
figure it out as we go.
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But when we were
pastoring to begin with,
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Richie was one of three pastors
in a three church district.
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So it was pretty cushy
from a pastoral standpoint
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and now we're moved
up to a different town
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and we're church planting.
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It's only us, we
don't even have a church
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that's sending us out,
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and so it was us
with the other couple
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and their baby who joined us.
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And we're going
to save the world
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for Jesus by ourselves.
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And both of us, both
of us from our stories,
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I think are tempted
towards isolation and going,
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I'm tough enough, I can do this.
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I don't need anybody.
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I don't need anybody else,
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I can just, I can figure it out.
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I'm smart enough,
I've read enough books.
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We will make it happen.
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We have a huge library of books,
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but soon we find
ourselves church planting
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and the pressure
increased exponentially
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and we still don't
have the resources,
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we still don't know what to do
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and so fast
forward a few years and...
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So and you're talking about it
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and so that as we're trying
to grow intimately as a couple,
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as we're trying to figure
out who we are as a couple,
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all of this other
pressure is overwhelming.
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And what we tend
to do and I don't know
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if this is true in
your case is we tend to say,
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okay, I'm going to put,
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I'm going to keep in my hand
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what feels good and
I feel confident with,
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everything else gets
pushed in the closet.
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Yep.
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Yeah, we certainly went
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our own
directions in that, you know,
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I started working
at a homeless shelter
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for women and children.
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Everything I did
turned to gold there,
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they loved me,
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and they served
three meals a day,
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so I never have to come home.
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They even have
showers if it comes to that,
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and so I just kind
of shifted my life,
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I was in graduate
school at that point
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working full time
internship, practicum,
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worship leader
on the weekends...
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Ministering to these women.
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Yeah, and...
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but we were church planting too,
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I mean so I was leading a
small group for the church
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and I was worship leader and,
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I mean so, I
just kind of shifted,
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I'm like I can't make this work.
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I can't make him happy.
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I'm not going to try anymore.
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And so I just shifted
my life somewhere else
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and he was more than
occupied with the church plants
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and so...
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So you could jump
into all those tasks
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and do them very well,
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so both of you
just started doing.
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Yep.
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We went years,
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now we're talking
about a span of years
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that we work on
this church plant.
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And we weren't
winning an intimacy,
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we weren't building
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closer connections relationally,
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we weren't growing,
we were going apart,
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so the opposite of oneness
was what was happening at home
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and our church plant grew.
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We grew from two couples
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to over one
hundred people attending.
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And so, you know, it
looked like success, right.
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But we were hemorrhaging
and then it came to a place
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and the breaking point
and also the turning point
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was when I took a sabbatical,
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three months sabbatical
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from pastoral
ministry, yay and...
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Well, yay unless you're
Timmy, it's like three months,
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we're going to have to
hang out with each other.
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Oh, no, we didn't hang out,
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we did quite the
most restful things
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we could do was build a house
from scratch with our own...
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With our hands. Oh, no no.
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'Cause isn't that a restful
thing to do on a sabbatical?
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You must be
related to my husband.
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I'm probably.
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So we're not...
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we're not the wisest
people you've ever interviewed,
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I'm just telling
you, so we take a break
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and we build a house,
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so we start building a house
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and when we come
back from our sabbatical,
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we find that our church plant
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has dropped in
attendance by half
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because we had
some other key leaders
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who got sick like they
went on a mission trip,
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got this some nasty
disease and never came back,
00:08:35.88\00:08:38.45
so they lost
their pastor and wife
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and this these other two really
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important key
members of our team
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and the church
was just imploding.
00:08:45.12\00:08:46.96
And so we tried to bail it out.
00:08:46.99\00:08:48.56
We worked with our leadership
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and tried to figure out
00:08:50.09\00:08:51.43
and it just would
not be turned around,
00:08:51.46\00:08:53.23
it was going down.
00:08:53.26\00:08:54.60
Couldn't be resuscitating.
00:08:54.63\00:08:55.96
And at the same time
our marriage was going down
00:08:56.00\00:08:58.00
and so we
literally came to a point
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where we agreed
that Timmy would go away
00:09:00.84\00:09:03.91
because at this
point we're still saying
00:09:03.94\00:09:05.27
that Timmy is the issue,
00:09:05.31\00:09:06.64
Richie is still perfect.
00:09:06.68\00:09:09.84
You know, and
it's really interesting
00:09:09.88\00:09:12.05
because even when you say that,
00:09:12.08\00:09:13.78
most of us do
fall for those lies.
00:09:13.82\00:09:15.85
We really do think
it's one or the other,
00:09:15.88\00:09:18.02
if it wasn't for
you would be okay,
00:09:18.05\00:09:20.42
but I want to say one thing
as you are going in the story
00:09:20.46\00:09:23.69
that I'm always wowed by
God 'cause he's brilliant.
00:09:23.73\00:09:27.26
Let's have them
build a house from scratch.
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Do you know what I
mean 'cause he's right there
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saying the things
that you're going to learn.
00:09:32.23\00:09:33.57
Somebody feels
like God wasn't there
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and now he is going to be there,
00:09:35.54\00:09:36.87
God was there the whole time.
00:09:36.91\00:09:38.24
So now you're
looking at each other.
00:09:38.27\00:09:40.84
You're going to get sent where?
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I mean, where did
you send your wife?
00:09:42.64\00:09:44.38
You sent her to
intensive counseling
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to get her issues fixed.
00:09:45.81\00:09:47.15
Oh.
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That's what you do.
00:09:48.55\00:09:49.88
And we both agreed because we...
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'cause in his defense
00:09:51.29\00:09:52.82
we both thought I was
the identified problem
00:09:52.85\00:09:54.92
because my issues
were a little more blatant
00:09:54.96\00:09:57.43
I would say than Richie's
00:09:57.46\00:10:00.00
'cause Richie was
still perfect at that point.
00:10:00.03\00:10:01.86
Well, Richie and
Richie thought he was
00:10:01.90\00:10:04.17
but actually there had
been evidence to the contrary...
00:10:04.20\00:10:08.67
We did show up...
00:10:08.70\00:10:10.11
Indeed it was showing up
00:10:10.14\00:10:11.47
and actually during
the building process
00:10:11.51\00:10:13.48
we had some conflict amazingly.
00:10:13.51\00:10:15.51
And Timmy had reached out
to a really important mentor
00:10:15.54\00:10:19.48
who'd been a part of now
00:10:19.51\00:10:21.05
he'd saved our
marriage before we got married,
00:10:21.08\00:10:23.05
a whole another story,
00:10:23.08\00:10:24.62
and we worked with him on
some of our marriage issues.
00:10:24.65\00:10:27.72
And she said, you know,
00:10:27.76\00:10:29.09
Richie and I are
having this issue.
00:10:29.12\00:10:30.46
She called him,
I didn't know this.
00:10:30.49\00:10:31.83
So we're framing our house
00:10:31.86\00:10:34.03
and I get a phone
call early in the morning,
00:10:34.06\00:10:35.66
we're just
starting the job that day,
00:10:35.70\00:10:37.07
and our friend
Gary is on the line
00:10:37.10\00:10:39.10
and he says,
Richie, can we talk.
00:10:39.13\00:10:40.74
And so I walk
away from the job site
00:10:40.77\00:10:42.57
and Gary says, now
we've worked with him
00:10:42.60\00:10:45.61
in the counseling
type role, right so...
00:10:45.64\00:10:47.54
He's a pastor
00:10:47.58\00:10:48.91
who is very, very
good at seeing people.
00:10:48.94\00:10:51.41
Amen.
00:10:51.45\00:10:52.78
Amazingly gifted
and he says, Richie,
00:10:52.81\00:10:55.12
I've been talking with Timmy
00:10:55.15\00:10:56.79
and based on
what she's telling me
00:10:56.82\00:10:58.22
and what I've seen,
00:10:58.25\00:10:59.59
you are
spiritually and emotionally
00:10:59.62\00:11:00.99
abusive to your wife
00:11:01.02\00:11:03.86
and it needs to stop.
00:11:03.89\00:11:06.66
He was pretty direct.
00:11:06.70\00:11:08.16
Now, fortunately
he didn't just say,
00:11:08.20\00:11:10.37
did you get all
that and hang up.
00:11:10.40\00:11:11.73
Right.
00:11:11.77\00:11:13.10
But you know what?
00:11:13.13\00:11:14.47
I've got to say when
we love each other enough
00:11:14.50\00:11:16.47
that I'm not going
to back away from that,
00:11:16.50\00:11:18.54
it's what I'm
saying to you is I love you
00:11:18.57\00:11:20.84
and I cannot not say that.
00:11:20.88\00:11:22.68
That's right. That's right.
00:11:22.71\00:11:24.05
So you knew that
he cared about you.
00:11:24.08\00:11:25.75
You know that
he's not slamming you.
00:11:25.78\00:11:27.55
But how did you receive that,
is like are you kidding me?
00:11:27.58\00:11:31.05
Well, I remember
00:11:31.09\00:11:32.42
our property was kind
of two tiered property.
00:11:32.45\00:11:34.62
We had some
cliffs that drop down
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.02
and I'm sitting on
top of these cliffs
00:11:36.06\00:11:37.39
looking down in the
woods talking to Gary,
00:11:37.43\00:11:39.63
tears running down my face,
00:11:39.66\00:11:41.10
and so he said those really
hard things right up front,
00:11:41.13\00:11:42.86
and then he said.
00:11:42.90\00:11:44.23
Richie, God's not done with you.
00:11:44.27\00:11:45.80
He sees gold...
00:11:45.83\00:11:47.17
Amen, amen.
00:11:47.20\00:11:48.74
He sees gold in you
but this has to stop.
00:11:48.77\00:11:51.27
And there's a book that I loved,
00:11:51.31\00:11:53.61
it was one of my
favorite things in ministry
00:11:53.64\00:11:55.91
but the book was called
Caring Enough to Confront.
00:11:55.94\00:11:57.55
Yes.
00:11:57.58\00:11:58.91
And so, you now to
me, if this guy was here,
00:11:58.95\00:12:01.68
I would kiss him on the face
00:12:01.72\00:12:03.05
'cause he probably
handed you your life.
00:12:03.08\00:12:05.52
Now I'd like to say
00:12:05.55\00:12:07.12
that after being
confronted that directly
00:12:07.16\00:12:08.99
that everything changed.
00:12:09.02\00:12:10.36
I know 'cause wouldn't we are.
00:12:10.39\00:12:12.66
When we all like to say that.
00:12:12.69\00:12:14.13
You had your
own moment of light.
00:12:14.16\00:12:16.23
I'm a slow learner
00:12:16.26\00:12:17.60
so fast-forward a couple months,
00:12:17.63\00:12:18.97
only couple months from that
00:12:19.00\00:12:20.44
to now Timmy is going away
00:12:20.47\00:12:21.80
because we're still,
Richie is still saying.
00:12:21.84\00:12:24.11
All right, so what I took
away from the conversation was,
00:12:24.14\00:12:26.98
oh, things are
worse than I had thought.
00:12:27.01\00:12:30.28
That's how far I was moved
with that conversation and not,
00:12:30.31\00:12:33.08
not things in me are
worse than I thought,
00:12:33.11\00:12:34.62
just things are
worse than I thought.
00:12:34.65\00:12:36.92
And you were open to the idea
00:12:36.95\00:12:38.29
that you might
possibly have something to do
00:12:38.32\00:12:40.06
with the marital
issues you were having.
00:12:40.09\00:12:41.59
Perhaps may even not likely.
00:12:41.62\00:12:42.96
Right.
00:12:42.99\00:12:44.33
I had read those 13 books.
00:12:44.36\00:12:45.69
So he had the right
words to say, he did,
00:12:45.73\00:12:47.33
he had more words
and words are valuable
00:12:47.36\00:12:49.26
but they don't
always lead to action.
00:12:49.30\00:12:50.87
So I left
00:12:50.90\00:12:52.63
and one of the
things that happened
00:12:52.67\00:12:54.00
while I was gone
00:12:54.04\00:12:55.60
working with some really
neat Christian women and...
00:12:55.64\00:13:00.18
So I don't want to
get past that too much
00:13:00.21\00:13:02.08
so you stepped out
and started pulling
00:13:02.11\00:13:05.81
and support from other woman.
00:13:05.85\00:13:08.35
I already had some support.
00:13:08.38\00:13:09.72
I had an accountability at home,
00:13:09.75\00:13:11.25
some ladies at
the homeless shelter
00:13:11.29\00:13:12.79
and I to the other staff
and I started meeting together,
00:13:12.82\00:13:15.99
just to kind of learn
what does it mean to love well,
00:13:16.02\00:13:18.13
how do we be in relationship.
00:13:18.16\00:13:20.00
What is it?
00:13:20.03\00:13:22.13
Basically how do we love
well is what it came down to
00:13:22.16\00:13:25.13
in our real
nitty-gritty of our lives.
00:13:25.17\00:13:26.77
We knew everything...
00:13:26.80\00:13:28.14
I mean after
meeting for a while.
00:13:28.17\00:13:29.60
You know, we knew everything
00:13:29.64\00:13:31.01
that was dark and difficult
00:13:31.04\00:13:33.78
as well as glorious
and beautiful in each other
00:13:33.81\00:13:36.58
and they really showed
me a different way to love.
00:13:36.61\00:13:40.95
They were actually the
reason that I started realizing,
00:13:40.98\00:13:43.15
this can't all be just me
because it takes two to love.
00:13:43.18\00:13:46.79
And so if and they
really modeled for me
00:13:46.82\00:13:50.36
in such
beautiful life giving ways,
00:13:50.39\00:13:53.63
what love is supposed to be.
00:13:53.66\00:13:55.26
They started
setting a new template
00:13:55.30\00:13:57.30
because I was able to
look at the relationship
00:13:57.33\00:13:59.13
I had with them.
00:13:59.17\00:14:00.54
And just how we cared
for each other and I went,
00:14:00.57\00:14:03.30
wait if that's love, this isn't.
00:14:03.34\00:14:05.67
Right, I'm not
feeling that at home.
00:14:05.71\00:14:07.38
We're calling love is
some strange amalgamation
00:14:07.41\00:14:10.05
that isn't it.
00:14:10.08\00:14:11.41
And so, but that didn't,
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.62
wasn't received super
well when I brought that home.
00:14:13.65\00:14:15.32
You know what
we're doing isn't love,
00:14:15.35\00:14:17.02
excuse me and
it really didn't...
00:14:17.05\00:14:19.69
Well, I just pointed out that
00:14:19.72\00:14:21.19
it's clearly her issue
00:14:21.22\00:14:22.56
so if she wanted
to have love here,
00:14:22.59\00:14:24.66
then she just needed to
keep working on her staff.
00:14:24.69\00:14:26.43
Yeah, she wasn't
being able to receive it.
00:14:26.46\00:14:28.20
You don't know how to give it,
00:14:28.23\00:14:29.56
you don't, can't
even identify it.
00:14:29.60\00:14:30.93
So in your mind as a
man and I have to say that
00:14:30.97\00:14:33.67
because we laugh
at that but that's,
00:14:33.70\00:14:35.47
it really is what
some people believe.
00:14:35.50\00:14:38.47
And what God has
to say is I've got to,
00:14:38.51\00:14:40.51
I've got to get
over both of you,
00:14:40.54\00:14:43.68
your conception of what this is
00:14:43.71\00:14:46.21
because you will not
be able to love each other
00:14:46.25\00:14:48.25
until you surrender this to me.
00:14:48.28\00:14:50.15
So you're saying a
little bit of support,
00:14:50.19\00:14:52.59
I love the fact that you
have a male calling to you
00:14:52.62\00:14:56.09
in a mentoring way.
00:14:56.12\00:14:57.46
You've got people that
are walking alongside of you
00:14:57.49\00:15:00.20
but you're still not
looking at each other.
00:15:00.23\00:15:01.96
Not so much and
so while I was gone,
00:15:02.00\00:15:04.73
one of the things that
became clear to me is that
00:15:04.77\00:15:07.47
I had these women that
I was walking with and,
00:15:07.50\00:15:10.91
you know, good things they
were beautiful mirrors to me.
00:15:10.94\00:15:13.54
Oh, you've got
some dirt right there.
00:15:13.58\00:15:14.94
Okay, I mean, now I
can do something about it
00:15:14.98\00:15:17.15
because I know about it.
00:15:17.18\00:15:18.65
And Richie was very convinced
that he didn't need any help.
00:15:18.68\00:15:21.52
He was really pretty great.
00:15:21.55\00:15:22.95
And so one of the things I said,
00:15:22.98\00:15:25.62
I said I am ready to come home.
00:15:25.65\00:15:27.59
And I will not come home
00:15:27.62\00:15:29.82
until you are in
an accountability
00:15:29.86\00:15:32.06
relationship with another man
00:15:32.09\00:15:33.96
and he had,
00:15:34.00\00:15:35.33
he had our almost two
year old at home with him.
00:15:35.36\00:15:37.70
He was very
motivated for me to come home.
00:15:37.73\00:15:42.27
You know our
marriage was challenged,
00:15:42.30\00:15:43.71
our church was imploding,
00:15:43.74\00:15:45.07
and he had a
toddler on his hands
00:15:45.11\00:15:46.84
and I wasn't there.
00:15:46.88\00:15:48.21
And so, we had
some friends over right
00:15:48.24\00:15:51.48
before I had left
00:15:51.51\00:15:52.98
and the man had offered
himself to Richie and said,
00:15:53.01\00:15:56.69
he said, you know Timmy can do
00:15:56.72\00:15:58.05
all the counseling she wants
00:15:58.09\00:15:59.42
he said but
Richie you are the key
00:15:59.45\00:16:01.96
and so, you know, if...
00:16:01.99\00:16:05.56
just saying that we had it,
00:16:05.59\00:16:06.93
it was going to come down to us,
00:16:06.96\00:16:08.30
it wasn't going
just being out there.
00:16:08.33\00:16:09.83
And when he says,
Richie, you are the key,
00:16:09.86\00:16:12.90
how did you take that?
00:16:12.93\00:16:14.27
I hated him. Yeah.
00:16:14.30\00:16:15.80
And we do.
00:16:15.84\00:16:17.54
Yeah, because...
We got to hear it.
00:16:17.57\00:16:19.34
What I heard him say,
00:16:19.37\00:16:20.71
he said, Richie, you're the key.
00:16:20.74\00:16:22.08
What I heard him say
was Richie, it's your fault.
00:16:22.11\00:16:24.78
And I was already
convinced that our church plant
00:16:24.81\00:16:27.02
collapse was my fault.
00:16:27.05\00:16:28.68
So my fault plate was
fault, so I turned him out,
00:16:28.72\00:16:31.75
I didn't want to hear
anything he had to say,
00:16:31.79\00:16:33.29
but then she's on the phone,
00:16:33.32\00:16:34.99
she puts a relational
gun to my head and says,
00:16:35.02\00:16:37.16
I'll be home when
you have accountability.
00:16:37.19\00:16:38.79
There's only one
person in my world
00:16:38.83\00:16:40.33
who has offered.
00:16:40.36\00:16:41.70
Right.
00:16:41.73\00:16:43.06
It's my friend Jerry,
00:16:43.10\00:16:44.43
who I now call Jerry the jerk...
00:16:44.47\00:16:46.80
And he knows. And
he loves that, yes.
00:16:46.84\00:16:48.74
'Cause he knows he's
not going to tell you
00:16:48.77\00:16:50.64
what you want to hear.
00:16:50.67\00:16:52.01
He is not, no...
00:16:52.04\00:16:53.38
You need to hear
this. That's right.
00:16:53.41\00:16:54.74
Jerry is retired Air
Force and he's very focused,
00:16:54.78\00:16:58.61
he doesn't miss things.
00:16:58.65\00:17:00.02
Pretty intense
dude, so I called Jerry
00:17:00.05\00:17:04.32
and I'm sure I sounded
really enthusiastic and I said,
00:17:04.35\00:17:06.79
"Hey, you still interested
in getting together" and he was.
00:17:06.82\00:17:10.93
And so about eight
and half years ago,
00:17:10.96\00:17:15.43
Jerry and I started meeting
00:17:15.46\00:17:16.80
and this is where
the turnaround began
00:17:16.83\00:17:18.47
when I started meeting with him.
00:17:18.50\00:17:19.97
So we met for two and a
half to three hours every week,
00:17:20.00\00:17:23.57
and have done that pretty much
00:17:23.61\00:17:25.24
for the last
eight and half years.
00:17:25.27\00:17:26.71
Even the amount of
time that you said,
00:17:26.74\00:17:30.18
that this person
is spoken to your life
00:17:30.21\00:17:32.78
that I'm not
going to call you up
00:17:32.81\00:17:34.25
every once in a
while or drop a text on you
00:17:34.28\00:17:36.72
is we are going to seriously
be in front of each other,
00:17:36.75\00:17:39.82
what an amazing thing.
00:17:39.85\00:17:41.99
So talk a little bit
about what he offered you
00:17:42.02\00:17:46.66
and how important was that
00:17:46.70\00:17:48.53
because you had
a paradigm shift,
00:17:48.56\00:17:50.00
everything in your
world had to shift.
00:17:50.03\00:17:51.77
That's right.
00:17:51.80\00:17:53.13
So obviously we
went lots of directions,
00:17:53.17\00:17:56.00
you know, in all
these conversations
00:17:56.04\00:17:57.37
hundreds and hundreds of hours
00:17:57.41\00:17:58.74
we spent talking
at this point but...
00:17:58.77\00:18:00.11
And I could hear
you, yes, but, yes, but...
00:18:00.14\00:18:02.04
Oh, yeah.
00:18:02.08\00:18:03.41
No, it's her but I
only come in some weeks
00:18:03.45\00:18:05.45
especially in the
beginning he said,
00:18:05.48\00:18:06.82
"Do you know what
that woman did to me?"
00:18:06.85\00:18:08.18
Right.
00:18:08.22\00:18:09.55
I took a picture of it.
00:18:09.58\00:18:10.92
Yeah, you should see this,
00:18:10.95\00:18:12.29
and he was just calm
00:18:12.32\00:18:13.66
and basically
the agenda every week
00:18:13.69\00:18:16.02
for all these weeks has
been and it hasn't changed
00:18:16.06\00:18:19.39
how to be a godly man and
how to live our wives well.
00:18:19.43\00:18:22.56
So whatever story
I came in with her
00:18:22.60\00:18:24.70
or something was
happening in our church plant
00:18:24.73\00:18:26.43
as it was going
downhill and eventually closed.
00:18:26.47\00:18:29.57
A lot of relational
carnage there caused by me
00:18:29.60\00:18:32.41
in part he just bring so,
00:18:32.44\00:18:34.84
so how would Jesus
respond in this situation?
00:18:34.88\00:18:38.15
What does it mean to be a
godly man in the situation?
00:18:38.18\00:18:40.22
That's still what
he's saying to me,
00:18:40.25\00:18:41.58
and he's still holding
up that mirror and I look,
00:18:41.62\00:18:44.09
I look at him just a
few weeks ago and said,
00:18:44.12\00:18:45.69
that's why we call you a jerk.
00:18:45.72\00:18:48.16
And because what he
offers to me is a place
00:18:48.19\00:18:53.50
where number one,
00:18:53.53\00:18:54.86
I don't get away with anything,
00:18:54.90\00:18:56.23
he's going to
call me on my stuff
00:18:56.26\00:18:57.60
and he says, let's
look at your part in this.
00:18:57.63\00:18:59.33
Because he cares about you.
00:18:59.37\00:19:00.70
Because he cares about me
and I know I can say anything
00:19:00.74\00:19:03.20
and he's not going
to think less of me,
00:19:03.24\00:19:05.14
and I know that he's 100 percent
00:19:05.17\00:19:07.54
in favor of my marriage
00:19:07.58\00:19:08.91
so no matter what I
say about this woman,
00:19:08.94\00:19:10.88
he's going to be in
favor of our marriage
00:19:10.91\00:19:13.78
rather than taking a side.
00:19:13.82\00:19:16.28
Even as you say
that because, you know,
00:19:16.32\00:19:18.02
I had to put
people in my own life
00:19:18.05\00:19:19.72
to work with Brad
and I and to bless us.
00:19:19.75\00:19:22.26
I know that I made a mistake
00:19:22.29\00:19:25.39
if that person talks
badly about my husband.
00:19:25.43\00:19:27.80
That's right.
00:19:27.83\00:19:29.16
And so, when you said,
00:19:29.20\00:19:30.53
when somebody is
going to come in,
00:19:30.57\00:19:31.90
they have to be for
you too, you are one flesh.
00:19:31.93\00:19:35.34
This is not about
trying to convince me
00:19:35.37\00:19:37.77
that he is wrong or I'm right
00:19:37.81\00:19:39.27
or any of that silliness.
00:19:39.31\00:19:40.68
This is about teaching
us to love one another,
00:19:40.71\00:19:42.84
so I love the
fact that Jerry said,
00:19:42.88\00:19:44.78
I'm going to
keep you right there.
00:19:44.81\00:19:46.38
Yeah, so, in
fact we tell people,
00:19:46.41\00:19:48.02
we say, look, you know,
00:19:48.05\00:19:49.38
if you bring
someone in to work with you
00:19:49.42\00:19:50.82
and they take sides,
00:19:50.85\00:19:52.19
they're either not
spiritually mature enough
00:19:52.22\00:19:53.76
or they're not
professional enough
00:19:53.79\00:19:55.22
and you gonna lose him.
00:19:55.26\00:19:56.76
And you really do
that should be a red flag
00:19:56.79\00:19:59.13
when somebody you know
Proverbs said something
00:19:59.16\00:20:01.90
that it got me
early on in my recovery is
00:20:01.93\00:20:04.93
be aware of the person
that winks a eye at you.
00:20:04.97\00:20:07.30
Beware of the
person that flatters you
00:20:07.34\00:20:09.00
because fluttering
is not going to grow me.
00:20:09.04\00:20:11.21
You know, I'm not
going to do any good
00:20:11.24\00:20:12.77
if I walk around
feeling all right
00:20:12.81\00:20:14.64
and my marriage
is falling apart.
00:20:14.68\00:20:16.11
I need someone that's
going to be real to me.
00:20:16.14\00:20:18.21
So Jerry, it sounds like
not only gave you the time
00:20:18.25\00:20:21.08
but literally
spent time with you.
00:20:21.12\00:20:22.85
And so now, I
have to say, Timmy,
00:20:22.88\00:20:24.42
there's a point
when you're looking at
00:20:24.45\00:20:27.46
what Jerry is offering
him and the time spent.
00:20:27.49\00:20:30.46
When did you start to believe
00:20:30.49\00:20:32.59
that he actually
was starting to get it?
00:20:32.63\00:20:34.93
Oh, it took a few years...
00:20:34.96\00:20:37.53
But why wouldn't you say that.
00:20:37.57\00:20:39.10
Somebody says, oh,
couple of sessions, get out.
00:20:39.13\00:20:41.37
No, get out, please get out.
00:20:41.40\00:20:44.71
Yeah, and we had a place too.
00:20:44.74\00:20:48.04
You know, we've had
stints of good behavior
00:20:48.08\00:20:49.98
before where
anger wasn't an issue
00:20:50.01\00:20:52.38
and we were working
together pretty well
00:20:52.41\00:20:54.85
but then something happen...
00:20:54.88\00:20:56.22
She what was going to find.
00:20:56.25\00:20:57.59
Yeah, me and
that pneumatic hammer
00:20:57.62\00:21:00.79
and then something would happen
00:21:00.82\00:21:02.16
and the cycles of
anger and withdrawal
00:21:02.19\00:21:04.56
and just our crazy
cycle would start again.
00:21:04.59\00:21:07.60
And so, you know, I had
my accountability group,
00:21:07.63\00:21:09.56
Richie had Jerry.
00:21:09.60\00:21:10.93
But we also need a place
where we could talk together
00:21:10.97\00:21:13.37
and so there was another couple
00:21:13.40\00:21:16.10
who we had interacted
with and we approached them
00:21:16.14\00:21:19.27
and said, we're just
going to be really honest,
00:21:19.31\00:21:22.31
we are saving the world
and falling apart and so would,
00:21:22.34\00:21:27.95
you know, would you
and your husband be willing
00:21:27.98\00:21:29.88
to just walk with
us and be a safe place
00:21:29.92\00:21:31.99
for us to talk
together with the two of you
00:21:32.02\00:21:34.79
and try to kind of
figure out what it is to do live
00:21:34.82\00:21:37.53
because we're not doing it well,
00:21:37.56\00:21:38.89
and at this point,
00:21:38.93\00:21:40.26
you know, we have
our firstborn child
00:21:40.30\00:21:42.00
and we don't want to teach him
00:21:42.03\00:21:43.50
that this is
what love looks like.
00:21:43.53\00:21:45.07
We don't want to
set that template.
00:21:45.10\00:21:46.47
This is what
ministry looks like,
00:21:46.50\00:21:47.84
this was a real
because it's everything.
00:21:47.87\00:21:49.84
This is what a
relationship with God looks like
00:21:49.87\00:21:52.04
and you're
saying, man, I'm down,
00:21:52.07\00:21:53.58
I can't, I can't
let this be passed on.
00:21:53.61\00:21:56.54
Right, and so I talked to her,
00:21:56.58\00:21:59.11
she talked to her
husband they came back and said,
00:21:59.15\00:22:01.08
what does every
other week sound good.
00:22:01.12\00:22:03.69
Okay.
00:22:03.72\00:22:05.05
And about every other day
00:22:05.09\00:22:06.52
Yeah, but I think every other
week sounded pretty intense.
00:22:06.55\00:22:10.63
So we started
meeting with Tim and Stacy
00:22:10.66\00:22:13.33
every other week
00:22:13.36\00:22:14.70
and they pretty much
adopted us for a year,
00:22:14.73\00:22:16.43
we spent holidays in their home
00:22:16.46\00:22:18.83
and what a typical
evening would look like,
00:22:18.87\00:22:21.24
we would go over on
whatever night it was,
00:22:21.27\00:22:23.00
I don't remember now
00:22:23.04\00:22:24.37
but we would
have dinner with them
00:22:24.41\00:22:26.51
and then we just all
kind of talk their kids
00:22:26.54\00:22:28.34
who were teenagers
00:22:28.38\00:22:29.71
and then one or
both of their kids
00:22:29.74\00:22:31.71
would take ours
downstairs to play
00:22:31.75\00:22:33.92
and then we just
kind of be talking about
00:22:33.95\00:22:35.85
what really had
happened in the last few weeks
00:22:35.88\00:22:38.19
and be like, you know,
00:22:38.22\00:22:39.55
when you drive in
there and you're like,
00:22:39.59\00:22:40.96
what do you want to talk about.
00:22:40.99\00:22:42.52
I don't know what do
you want to talk about.
00:22:42.56\00:22:44.76
You know we both knew the things
00:22:44.79\00:22:46.13
that needed to be talked about
00:22:46.16\00:22:47.50
but it's so hard to
come before someone and say,
00:22:47.53\00:22:49.96
here is the very
true and ugly of me.
00:22:50.00\00:22:52.70
Yeah.
00:22:52.73\00:22:54.07
Are you going to like me anyway?
00:22:54.10\00:22:55.90
And what I love about mentoring
and being real and figure out
00:22:55.94\00:22:59.74
how to do this is we've got to,
00:22:59.77\00:23:01.78
we've got to put
that person out there,
00:23:01.81\00:23:04.51
when I get the ugliest,
00:23:04.55\00:23:05.88
this is what I look like,
00:23:05.91\00:23:07.28
and we've got to say
please don't judge me.
00:23:07.32\00:23:09.85
This is not about
whether I love God,
00:23:09.88\00:23:11.85
this is not any of
that, I don't even know
00:23:11.89\00:23:14.06
why this person
comes up but he comes up.
00:23:14.09\00:23:16.42
And so I love the fact that
you're brave enough that says,
00:23:16.46\00:23:18.83
you know, even on
the way over there,
00:23:18.86\00:23:20.50
you're trying to
look at each other
00:23:20.53\00:23:21.86
and say please say that nicer
00:23:21.90\00:23:23.60
because, you know...
00:23:23.63\00:23:25.53
Please don't
reveal me quite that much.
00:23:25.57\00:23:27.24
Exactly, exactly.
00:23:27.27\00:23:28.67
And I would say
00:23:28.70\00:23:30.04
we got relationally
naked with these guys.
00:23:30.07\00:23:32.21
We didn't pull our
punches we didn't try to hide.
00:23:32.24\00:23:34.44
I mean of course
we did, but I mean,
00:23:34.48\00:23:36.01
when it all came
down to it, we didn't.
00:23:36.04\00:23:38.21
I mean we,
00:23:38.25\00:23:39.58
they really saw
the glory sides of us
00:23:39.61\00:23:42.82
and what was really beautiful
is they completely normalized.
00:23:42.85\00:23:46.12
I mean sometimes we would
like tell this horrible story,
00:23:46.15\00:23:48.52
this horrible conversation
we'd had and we'd be like
00:23:48.56\00:23:51.46
oh, you remember
that time we did that...
00:23:51.49\00:23:53.73
Me too. Oh, my goodness.
00:23:53.76\00:23:55.63
And we're like,
00:23:55.66\00:23:57.00
oh, you mean we're not evil.
00:23:57.03\00:23:58.90
Amen.
00:23:58.93\00:24:00.27
We're the only ones.
00:24:00.30\00:24:01.64
We're the only
ones and they're like,
00:24:01.67\00:24:03.10
yeah, but here's how,
00:24:03.14\00:24:04.47
here's what God
taught us through that
00:24:04.51\00:24:06.41
and they just
basically shared their testimony
00:24:06.44\00:24:08.14
of different things,
00:24:08.18\00:24:09.51
and they taught us
some skills and stuff
00:24:09.54\00:24:10.88
because they were farther down
the marital road than we were
00:24:10.91\00:24:13.45
and they...
00:24:13.48\00:24:14.82
but they were a
couple who had really
00:24:14.85\00:24:16.18
from everything we had seen,
00:24:16.22\00:24:17.55
they had chosen to grow through
their conflict instead of...
00:24:17.59\00:24:20.76
It's incredible.
00:24:20.79\00:24:22.12
They didn't try to hide it.
They didn't try to minimize it.
00:24:22.16\00:24:23.86
They said...
00:24:23.89\00:24:25.23
They empathized
with you. Oh my goodness.
00:24:25.26\00:24:26.59
Yes, and...
00:24:26.63\00:24:28.63
And what is
amazing is that we ended up
00:24:28.66\00:24:30.70
because we recognize
we're in crisis right,
00:24:30.73\00:24:32.43
we're bleeding out and
so we call this the I.C.U.
00:24:32.47\00:24:35.30
phase of our marriage.
00:24:35.34\00:24:36.97
And so we had
this mentor couple.
00:24:37.01\00:24:39.27
Timmy had her
group, I had Jerry.
00:24:39.31\00:24:41.51
We were spending collectively
six to ten hours a week
00:24:41.54\00:24:45.11
during this phrase
working on ironing out
00:24:45.15\00:24:47.82
what was broken
in our relationship.
00:24:47.85\00:24:50.05
You know,
00:24:50.09\00:24:51.42
and I'm gonna go ahead and break
00:24:51.45\00:24:52.79
and we're going to
come back for close
00:24:52.82\00:24:54.16
because I can't
believe we've run out of time.
00:24:54.19\00:24:55.66
Luckily we're going to do
another program with you guys,
00:24:55.69\00:24:58.09
but I want to, I want to say,
00:24:58.13\00:25:00.93
I so admire the fact
00:25:00.96\00:25:03.57
that you guys that
are pulling whoever,
00:25:03.60\00:25:06.03
I mean after you
guys started working,
00:25:06.07\00:25:07.60
it looked like you pulled in,
00:25:07.64\00:25:08.97
whoever is going to be
real enough to help us.
00:25:09.00\00:25:11.57
And so we're
going to take a break.
00:25:11.61\00:25:13.17
If you are
relationally bleeding,
00:25:13.21\00:25:16.54
look around you
because there will be someone
00:25:16.58\00:25:18.51
that you can pull in,
00:25:18.55\00:25:19.88
there will be
somebody that gets that.
00:25:19.91\00:25:21.32
You know, you can read a book,
00:25:21.35\00:25:22.68
you can do all of
that if you want to
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.55
but it's not the
same as having somebody
00:25:24.59\00:25:26.29
right in front of
you, being that mirror.
00:25:26.32\00:25:28.42
So we're gonna be right back
with Richie and Timmy Brower,
00:25:28.46\00:25:31.69
and we're going to talk about
00:25:31.73\00:25:34.36
where they are at now
00:25:34.40\00:25:35.73
and I want them to
tell you something.
00:25:35.76\00:25:38.67
So stay with us.
00:25:38.70\00:25:40.04