The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to addictive behaviour.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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When I met Timmy
and Richie Brower,
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I heard them say that their
relationship was hemorrhaging
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that they were
bleeding to death,
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and it caught my attention
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because I knew
what that felt like.
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You're gonna
love these next guests
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and you're gonna
love their healing,
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it was amazing.
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Welcome to
Celebrating Life in Recovery.
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I'm Cheri, your host,
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and I just can't wait
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to introduce you to my friends.
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Come join us on the cafe.
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Welcome.
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Today we're gonna be
talking about relationships,
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marriage
connection and somebody says,
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"Why do we need
to talk about that?"
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Just look around
you, because I really,
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when I first
came into the church
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what I realized is that
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I don't know if a
lot of us really know
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how to be
ourselves, be in our own skin,
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and then really
step into relationship.
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And as I started to learn that,
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even with Brad and I.
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And you've met my
husband, he's adorable.
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But, man, we had to go
through a ton of stuff,
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so I'm going to
introduce you to our guest
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right out of the gate
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because I want to
give them a lot of time
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to share with you who they are
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and what they
learned about relationships.
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So Richie Brower, Timmy,
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and you have a
ministry of your own that you do
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and what's that called?
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It's called Marriage Conversion,
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and we travel and
do seminars in churches
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and events across North America.
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And then we have
online sites, websites
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that we have where people can
come and watch training videos.
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We do live webinars and
different things like that,
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all supporting
people in getting tools
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to strengthen their marriages.
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That's awesome.
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Is that because you've
always been such an expert?
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Absolutely.
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'Cause I heard you speak.
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I'm thinking
that sounded so good,
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but you know what?
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I want to know,
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we're gonna do a couple
of programs with you guys,
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but I want to know, Richie,
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where did you come from
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and how were you when you
stepped into relationship?
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Oh, mercy.
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Well, where I come from.
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I was an expert in
marriage by the time I was 13.
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I had read 13 books
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on the topic of
marriage and courtship
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by the time I was 13 years old.
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Why?
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Because of where
I come from. Okay.
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So I come from a family,
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it was a church
attending family,
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but my home was a
home of tremendous chaos,
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literally,
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if you walked into your house
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which no one was
allowed to when I was a kid,
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but if you did
walk into our house,
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you would have seen the house
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that was
literally full of trash,
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mounds of garbage
everywhere, magazines, books,
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wrappers whatever.
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And there were aisles
through the garbage...
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So actually from
a hoarding family.
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Yeah, just piles of stuff.
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And there was
aisles through the garbage,
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but if you want
to sit on a chair,
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you'd have to follow
the aisle through the trash
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and then pick up
a stack of magazines
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or something on the
chair and set it aside.
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There was dishes in the sink.
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They were always dirty.
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There was never,
would not never rarely
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a warm meal on
the table as a kid,
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and so literally for
me growing up, you know,
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I wake up in the morning
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and I had a cousin of my age
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who was living in our
home with us at the time,
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and my daddy gone to work
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and he would
have made breakfast,
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but he made an hour
ago and it was oatmeal,
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so by the time we got there,
it's anything but appealing.
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So food became a
really big deal to me
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because we didn't have it,
so that was part of the chaos.
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The other part of the
chaos is that my family,
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my parents, their
marriage was in chaos,
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and a lot of tension and strife.
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And sometimes that
would come out in conflict.
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And so there was times
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when things were thrown
at each other in my presence
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as a kid seeing that
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domestic
violence happening there,
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and probably some of the
most profound impact on my heart
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as a kid came from
how those fights would end
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in the way the fight
ended between my parents
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would be with my mom
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storming out
the door and saying,
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"I'm just gonna go kill myself."
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And then she'd get in the car...
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Were you only kid, only child?
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I'm one of three,
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but I'm ten years
younger than my nearest sibling,
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so my siblings had
gone away to boarding school
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and so it was me,
and I had a cousin
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who she'd come to live
with us for several years.
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She was nine
months younger than me,
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so there was two of us
and then it was just me
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when she went back to her mom.
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So my mom would
make this statement,
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this threat and
she went out the door
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and I don't remember this,
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but my big sister said,
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"She'd be gone
sometimes for ten days."
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She just go camping.
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And have no idea
did she kill herself?
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Is she alive?
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Is she coming back? Right.
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This is before cell phones,
so there's no way to reach her,
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she just disappeared.
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And so as a boy,
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I had a reoccurring
nightmare and it's interesting,
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the nightmare was,
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it was a night time along
the county road near our home,
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and I would have this
dream of my dad ironically,
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my dad stepping out in
front of a full sized semi truck
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in the dark and being hit.
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And so there was
just incredible chaos
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and so as a boy that...
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I can't imagine, I
just have to say Richie,
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I can't imagine
that when you said,
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I grabbed 'cause when you said,
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I read all these
books before I was 13,
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I thought who,
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no 13 year old reads
all this stuff is that
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you were trying to
make sense in any way,
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can someone give
me some information
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because I'm not
going to survive.
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That's right, yeah.
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So there was
just the sense of...
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I don't know if I'm
going to make it and I made.
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My parents divorced
when I was eight and a half,
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and in many ways
that was a relief.
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I would have told you
as a kid, it's better.
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And so,
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they decided that
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they didn't want to drag
me through a custody battle.
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So I remember we lived in a home
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where there was a wall
part way down the stairs
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of the two
story home and I live,
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my room was upstairs
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and there's a wall
that came part way down
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and then the rest
was open the living room.
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And one night I heard
them talking downstairs,
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I wasn't asleep yet.
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And I snuck down the
stairs so I was behind that wall
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and I'm listening to my parents
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planning their divorce
and they made a decision,
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they didn't want to
have a custody battle...
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And no one had
talked to you yet.
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No, no one had talked to me.
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So they're planning
their divorce and they said,
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"We don't want to
have a custody battle,
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so let's just ask Richie
who he wants to live with."
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I was eight and a half.
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So that's what happened.
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My mom took me to ice
cream, went to Dairy Queen...
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No way, you're
talking eight years old
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and in with ice
cream in front of you,
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somebody's trying to say,
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do you love me or your dad more.
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I mean because
basically that's what
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an eight year
old is going to hear.
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Right.
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So an amazing thing happened,
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this was one of
the first instances
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looking back on
my life where I say,
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God just showed up right there.
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We're sitting in our
little Volkswagen buggy
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outside Dairy Queen
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and I looked at
my mom and I said,
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"I want to live with dad."
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There's no way that I don't know
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how I came to that conclusion,
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but it was
absolutely the right decision.
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I love both my parents
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but my dad was the
healthier of the two
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at that point in their lives.
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Because even with the hoarding
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when you talk
about all of the chaos
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and all of the
hoarding and the suicidal stop,
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you saw that primarily from mom.
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Dad would go to
work, he would come back,
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he was there for
you more healthier.
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Hard to say that
anybody was really there
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for any of us kids.
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He had his own stuff
going but he was healthier,
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he was more balanced
I guess at that point.
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So there was,
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there was other
things going on with dad
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that those would surface
later when I was an adult but,
00:08:03.71\00:08:07.12
so eight and a half,
mom and dad divorced,
00:08:07.15\00:08:09.88
and now it's dad and I.
00:08:09.92\00:08:12.62
And so now I would come
home from school, you know,
00:08:12.65\00:08:17.03
and my dad was selling
Christian books door to door
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and so he worked until
9:30, 10 o'clock at night
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and I get home from
school at 3:30, 4 o'clock.
00:08:22.76\00:08:26.03
And so the difference
the time in between was time
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that I was a
latchkey kid, let myself in,
00:08:28.40\00:08:31.24
I'd cook supper for
myself or if I, you know,
00:08:31.27\00:08:33.78
I had a wide
repertoire, I could make toast.
00:08:33.81\00:08:36.91
Graham crackers and milk
and I think mac and cheese.
00:08:36.95\00:08:40.22
So those were my options
00:08:40.25\00:08:41.95
and so that's
what life looks like
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until through sixth
grade I lived with my dad
00:08:44.89\00:08:48.99
and was that was
kind of how things went
00:08:49.02\00:08:50.73
through most of that time.
00:08:50.76\00:08:52.09
Did you realize
at that time, Richie,
00:08:52.13\00:08:53.90
that you really learned
to rely on yourself only?
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No, I had no clue. Yeah.
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You know as I became an adult
00:08:59.57\00:09:03.30
and started actually
taking a look at my own story
00:09:03.34\00:09:05.14
in a way that I
hadn't prior to that,
00:09:05.17\00:09:07.51
I realized that I
actually made a vow,
00:09:07.54\00:09:10.41
not a conscious
about it but I made a vow,
00:09:10.45\00:09:12.48
I will never be
dependent on anyone but myself.
00:09:12.51\00:09:15.95
Exactly.
00:09:15.98\00:09:17.32
And I didn't realize I
made that vow but I had,
00:09:17.35\00:09:19.19
and that's a
tough vow to live with
00:09:19.22\00:09:21.69
especially when you end
up choosing to be a pastor,
00:09:21.72\00:09:24.43
and you've made a
vow to trust no one
00:09:24.46\00:09:26.36
which of course
has to include God.
00:09:26.39\00:09:29.30
And so that,
00:09:29.33\00:09:30.67
that started having
all kinds of implications
00:09:30.70\00:09:33.07
when I met this
girl and we got married.
00:09:33.10\00:09:34.54
So how did you...
00:09:34.57\00:09:35.90
And so, Timmy,
even hearing this story,
00:09:35.94\00:09:39.07
you're hearing this story,
00:09:39.11\00:09:41.21
for me it must
still make you feel like,
00:09:41.24\00:09:45.21
"Man, I'm sorry for
what you went through."
00:09:45.25\00:09:49.22
You bet,
specially, you know, we have,
00:09:49.25\00:09:50.59
we have three little boys
00:09:50.62\00:09:51.95
and as I think of any of them
00:09:51.99\00:09:54.52
in even just one of
those segments of his life,
00:09:54.56\00:09:57.33
let alone all of it,
it's absolutely heartbreaking,
00:09:57.36\00:10:00.26
because I know that
they couldn't handle it.
00:10:00.30\00:10:03.40
And I'm so
grateful that they couldn't.
00:10:03.43\00:10:05.53
They're not supposed to...
00:10:05.57\00:10:06.90
Exactly, they're not supposed to
00:10:06.94\00:10:08.34
and it is both...
00:10:08.37\00:10:10.54
It's a testimony to
God in Richie's life
00:10:10.57\00:10:12.94
that he is where he is now.
00:10:12.97\00:10:14.88
So how did you guys meet?
00:10:14.91\00:10:16.54
Usually how did you
decide pastoral work, I mean.
00:10:16.58\00:10:19.51
Oh, well, you know,
00:10:19.55\00:10:21.12
I read those 13
books on marriage.
00:10:21.15\00:10:24.92
By 13.
00:10:24.95\00:10:26.29
By 13, yeah, you
know, I actually...
00:10:26.32\00:10:29.19
because my dad
worked for the church
00:10:29.22\00:10:30.73
selling
Christian books and stuff.
00:10:30.76\00:10:32.09
I watched how
that worked for him
00:10:32.13\00:10:33.46
and I made another vow,
00:10:33.50\00:10:34.83
"I'll never
work for the church,"
00:10:34.86\00:10:36.63
was another vow,
00:10:36.67\00:10:38.00
I said, "No way no how."
00:10:38.03\00:10:39.37
But as I entered into
junior high and high school,
00:10:39.40\00:10:43.61
I had the ability to talk
00:10:43.64\00:10:45.64
and people see that
in young people they say,
00:10:45.67\00:10:48.14
"Oh, you want to be a pastor."
00:10:48.18\00:10:49.61
And I said, "No way."
00:10:49.64\00:10:53.08
But there came a day
00:10:53.11\00:10:54.85
after working at summer
camp for a lot of years.
00:10:54.88\00:10:57.62
I love summer camp,
I thought I can do that
00:10:57.65\00:10:59.65
and that was fun.
00:10:59.69\00:11:01.02
So working at campus staff,
00:11:01.06\00:11:02.66
there came a day on
a beach in Australia,
00:11:02.69\00:11:06.29
where I was with one
of my mentors and heroes.
00:11:06.33\00:11:09.43
We were on a tour,
00:11:09.46\00:11:10.80
he was speaking for
youth invents and stuff
00:11:10.83\00:11:12.40
and we were doing drama.
00:11:12.43\00:11:13.97
And on that beach
00:11:14.00\00:11:16.67
he looked at me one
night after the program
00:11:16.71\00:11:18.27
for the youth had finished
there on the beach in Australia
00:11:18.31\00:11:19.94
and he said, "You know,
00:11:19.97\00:11:21.31
we could really use people
like you in the ministry."
00:11:21.34\00:11:23.28
And that was the
beginning and God used other men
00:11:23.31\00:11:26.75
that I love and respect to
speak into my life and said,
00:11:26.78\00:11:30.29
"This is your call."
00:11:30.32\00:11:31.65
So I was a
business major and college
00:11:31.69\00:11:34.26
and felt like God said,
00:11:34.29\00:11:36.39
"No, I want you to
go and become pastor."
00:11:36.42\00:11:37.76
So I really and I don't want
to spend too much time on this
00:11:37.79\00:11:40.63
because I know that, you know,
00:11:40.66\00:11:43.06
what we're going
to discuss today.
00:11:43.10\00:11:45.00
But you said something
that I think is crucial
00:11:45.03\00:11:47.87
for the church to hear is that
00:11:47.90\00:11:49.74
you had men that
spoke into your life,
00:11:49.77\00:11:52.04
you had mentors along the way.
00:11:52.07\00:11:54.01
You're from this crazy
home when you shut the door,
00:11:54.04\00:11:57.88
life is way different
00:11:57.91\00:11:59.25
but someone saw something in you
00:11:59.28\00:12:00.75
and gave you that time.
00:12:00.78\00:12:02.68
Yeah, and
that's part of the gift
00:12:02.72\00:12:04.19
that God has given me
through the church is that
00:12:04.22\00:12:07.26
there's been multiple
people, men and women,
00:12:07.29\00:12:09.46
I adopted moms, I adopted men,
00:12:09.49\00:12:12.19
I never, I didn't
call most of them dad,
00:12:12.23\00:12:14.16
but I've adopted people
who just spoke into my life
00:12:14.20\00:12:17.80
in different seasons
00:12:17.83\00:12:19.17
and part of where the corner
was turned in Richie's life
00:12:19.20\00:12:23.14
was when the
parents of my best friend
00:12:23.17\00:12:26.07
first through third
grade, my best friend.
00:12:26.11\00:12:28.24
His parents they agreed
to take me into their home
00:12:28.28\00:12:33.01
starting with the summer
after my sixth grade year.
00:12:33.05\00:12:35.65
So I went to
visit for the summer
00:12:35.68\00:12:37.49
and I end up
staying that became my home.
00:12:37.52\00:12:39.72
And I adopted
them, they adopted me
00:12:39.75\00:12:41.39
and I called them
mom and dad to this day
00:12:41.42\00:12:43.59
and they call
me their other son.
00:12:43.63\00:12:45.19
And so somebody is now saying
let me make dinner for you.
00:12:45.23\00:12:48.36
Yeah.
00:12:48.40\00:12:49.73
You know, this is not your job,
00:12:49.76\00:12:51.23
go play, do your homework.
00:12:51.27\00:12:53.37
Do your chores.
00:12:53.40\00:12:55.77
Clean your room.
00:12:55.80\00:12:57.14
All the things that you...
00:12:57.17\00:12:58.51
and I loved it, I had boundaries
00:12:58.54\00:13:00.44
and also my life starts
to take shape and substance
00:13:00.48\00:13:04.35
and so I read these
13 books on relationship.
00:13:04.38\00:13:06.51
And now my adopted mom says,
00:13:06.55\00:13:09.18
"Hey, why don't come
sit with me on the bed
00:13:09.22\00:13:11.42
and we're going to talk about,"
00:13:11.45\00:13:12.79
and she opens this
book to me on Characters
00:13:12.82\00:13:14.76
and Personalities.
00:13:14.79\00:13:16.12
First time I ever
heard about cleric,
00:13:16.16\00:13:17.76
phlegmatic all
those kind of things,
00:13:17.79\00:13:19.33
and I start to learn
about who God made me to be
00:13:19.36\00:13:21.86
and how I'm wired.
00:13:21.90\00:13:23.26
Now, we didn't talk
about how my wounding
00:13:23.30\00:13:25.60
had affected my
wiring at that point,
00:13:25.63\00:13:27.80
but I started
getting a picture of,
00:13:27.84\00:13:29.37
whoa, I could do
something in the world,
00:13:29.40\00:13:31.67
and that was really a
turning point right there
00:13:31.71\00:13:33.44
in seventh and eighth grade.
00:13:33.48\00:13:35.04
And so I went into
high school feeling like,
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.38
you know what, I am
made to do big things.
00:13:37.41\00:13:40.52
And so I thought, you know,
00:13:40.55\00:13:43.89
I felt like I
had a pretty normal
00:13:43.92\00:13:45.52
background at that point.
00:13:45.55\00:13:47.22
If you would ask me I would say,
00:13:47.26\00:13:48.59
no, I come from a
normal family, you know,
00:13:48.62\00:13:50.16
I mean isn't that what
everybody certainly looks like
00:13:50.19\00:13:52.69
and so...
00:13:52.73\00:13:54.06
I love when you say that
00:13:54.10\00:13:55.43
because even as
I'm hearing your story
00:13:55.46\00:13:57.17
that we really do
believe that we're normal
00:13:57.20\00:13:59.40
until we start
looking around and saying,
00:13:59.43\00:14:01.80
"Man, that had
to have twisted me."
00:14:01.84\00:14:06.21
Even for you when you,
00:14:06.24\00:14:07.58
when you talk
about those trust levels
00:14:07.61\00:14:09.71
and vowing that you know
I'm not going to trust anybody.
00:14:09.74\00:14:12.45
I'm going to
take care of myself,
00:14:12.48\00:14:13.82
all of those things,
00:14:13.85\00:14:15.18
and each mentor
in each relationship
00:14:15.22\00:14:17.92
really kind of
put a chisel to that
00:14:17.95\00:14:20.46
and started cracking that open.
00:14:20.49\00:14:23.56
That's huge.
00:14:23.59\00:14:24.93
So did you guys meet in college,
00:14:24.96\00:14:27.16
and when did you meet?
00:14:27.20\00:14:28.70
He's very old, we could
have never met in college.
00:14:28.73\00:14:31.37
We were never
there at the same time...
00:14:31.40\00:14:33.13
Se, I didn't
know he was that old.
00:14:33.17\00:14:34.70
Yes, he is very mature clearly.
00:14:34.74\00:14:38.34
No, we actually
met at summer camp
00:14:38.37\00:14:39.71
because Richie
just kept going back
00:14:39.74\00:14:41.28
until I got old enough.
00:14:41.31\00:14:43.98
We actually tell the joke that
00:14:44.01\00:14:45.45
we both started at
summer camp the same year
00:14:45.48\00:14:47.62
because we did, the
difference is he was staff
00:14:47.65\00:14:49.88
and I was a
adventurer camper, I was eight.
00:14:49.92\00:14:53.86
Thankfully I have absolutely
no recollection of that
00:14:53.89\00:14:55.99
because that would've
been so scarring to have...
00:14:56.02\00:14:58.49
She took rock climbing for me.
00:14:58.53\00:15:00.20
But the girl that
was teaching with him.
00:15:00.23\00:15:02.50
Oh, she was one of the big girls
00:15:02.53\00:15:04.10
and she was so pretty.
00:15:04.13\00:15:05.67
You know, when
you're little and you're...
00:15:05.70\00:15:07.04
I mean, oh, my goodness
00:15:07.07\00:15:08.40
I have no
recollection of him whatsoever.
00:15:08.44\00:15:11.01
But I did come back
a staff of legal age
00:15:11.04\00:15:15.81
and that's how we met,
00:15:15.84\00:15:18.58
we just started talking
00:15:18.61\00:15:19.95
and we were
both theology majors,
00:15:19.98\00:15:22.02
he had been, he was
pastoring at that point,
00:15:22.05\00:15:23.89
I was a theology
major, he was in seminary.
00:15:23.92\00:15:26.76
And we just started
talking about big things
00:15:26.79\00:15:29.66
and big ideas and God
00:15:29.69\00:15:33.73
and just big few things
00:15:33.76\00:15:36.16
and not very many
people talked like he talks.
00:15:36.20\00:15:39.10
He does have a gift
of talking, he was right.
00:15:39.13\00:15:41.67
And there was one
night in particular
00:15:41.70\00:15:43.64
I remember it was raining,
00:15:43.67\00:15:45.01
I didn't have a
cab in that week,
00:15:45.04\00:15:46.37
and we just sat on the
steps as the rain came down
00:15:46.41\00:15:49.31
and talked about life
00:15:49.34\00:15:50.68
and what we want
to be when we grow up
00:15:50.71\00:15:52.68
and we just we started deep
almost instantly of, you know,
00:15:52.71\00:15:57.65
where is God taking us,
00:15:57.69\00:15:59.12
and what does He want from us
00:15:59.15\00:16:01.59
in exciting
adventurous sort of ways...
00:16:01.62\00:16:04.06
What's incredible even
as you're talking is that
00:16:04.09\00:16:07.33
it sounds like that you
fully saw each other, you know,
00:16:07.36\00:16:12.57
and what you dreamed about,
saw each other spiritually.
00:16:12.60\00:16:15.90
This is what I dream about.
00:16:15.94\00:16:18.01
This is how God
has touched my life
00:16:18.04\00:16:19.77
and for whatever reason decided
to share that with each other
00:16:19.81\00:16:23.11
and it was receptive.
00:16:23.14\00:16:24.65
Because some people
would look at you and say,
00:16:24.68\00:16:26.18
"That's crazy,
let's go rock climbing."
00:16:26.21\00:16:28.28
What are you talking about?
00:16:28.32\00:16:29.65
Yeah, we did that
too, but yeah, we just,
00:16:29.68\00:16:32.12
we started off our pricing
within our second conversation,
00:16:32.15\00:16:35.49
we went really deep really fast
00:16:35.52\00:16:38.09
and we've always
dreamed together.
00:16:38.13\00:16:41.63
You know we can be in
the depths of marital chaos
00:16:41.66\00:16:45.53
and be dreaming about
helping marriages some day
00:16:45.57\00:16:49.10
and I really think...
00:16:49.14\00:16:51.01
After we get through
meeting I'm gonna tell you.
00:16:51.04\00:16:53.54
Right, when that part is gone,
00:16:53.58\00:16:57.05
and so that has something
00:16:57.08\00:16:58.41
God has placed in both
of our hearts big dreams.
00:16:58.45\00:17:01.05
We're always dreaming
00:17:01.08\00:17:02.42
and we seem to have given
birth to dreamers as well.
00:17:02.45\00:17:05.72
So at that time,
you guys really connect.
00:17:05.75\00:17:09.56
Now, you're
working together in camp.
00:17:09.59\00:17:11.83
When did you know
that more than likely
00:17:11.86\00:17:15.80
this is my wife,
00:17:15.83\00:17:17.23
more than likely
this is my husband?
00:17:17.27\00:17:19.13
Well, we...
00:17:19.17\00:17:20.50
Well, I'll let you
talk in just a minute.
00:17:20.54\00:17:22.84
We got through
the summer from hell
00:17:22.87\00:17:24.94
is how we affectionately call it
00:17:24.97\00:17:26.54
and we figured
00:17:26.57\00:17:27.91
marriage could not
possibly be worse than this
00:17:27.94\00:17:29.64
so we should consider it.
00:17:29.68\00:17:31.45
What made it so
hard to get through?
00:17:31.48\00:17:35.05
What was
difficult about that summer?
00:17:35.08\00:17:36.95
Well, that was
our second summer.
00:17:36.99\00:17:38.62
We've been dating
for about nine months,
00:17:38.65\00:17:40.32
long distance at that point,
00:17:40.36\00:17:42.19
and we just couldn't see
eye to eye on diddly-squat.
00:17:42.22\00:17:46.66
I mean, I did like
let's go this direction.
00:17:46.70\00:17:48.80
No, over there is
the Promised Land.
00:17:48.83\00:17:50.67
I mean everything was
different, we couldn't...
00:17:50.70\00:17:54.30
Which pretty wraps up,
00:17:54.34\00:17:55.67
pretty much wraps up
how marriage went to...
00:17:55.70\00:17:57.04
For the first
eight years, pretty much,
00:17:57.07\00:17:58.74
that does sum up that.
00:17:58.77\00:18:01.44
I think some, you
know, control on my side
00:18:01.48\00:18:03.95
and jealousy
and different things
00:18:03.98\00:18:05.31
in that
environment with, you know,
00:18:05.35\00:18:06.68
all the camp staff and stuff.
00:18:06.72\00:18:08.05
There's a lot of communication,
should have been some red flags
00:18:08.08\00:18:10.95
with all those 13
books I had read but...
00:18:10.99\00:18:14.66
Because I should
have that information.
00:18:14.69\00:18:16.12
That's right.
00:18:16.16\00:18:17.49
But you know, and
I've got to get back
00:18:17.53\00:18:18.86
because I think
sometimes we forget
00:18:18.89\00:18:20.60
we're in the
midst of falling in love
00:18:20.63\00:18:22.76
and seeing that, you know what,
00:18:22.80\00:18:24.13
I think this is my life partner
00:18:24.17\00:18:25.77
but then all of the stuff
that we have been carrying
00:18:25.80\00:18:29.67
starts to kind of
bubble up to the surface.
00:18:29.70\00:18:33.31
And we didn't even know that
00:18:33.34\00:18:34.68
what we didn't
know at that point,
00:18:34.71\00:18:36.44
I mean we both thought we
had pretty normal childhoods
00:18:36.48\00:18:38.98
and so we were
coming into, you know,
00:18:39.01\00:18:41.15
do good things for
God and for ministry,
00:18:41.18\00:18:43.28
he was kind of lucky
to have us on his team...
00:18:43.32\00:18:45.49
Yeah, that's how we felt.
00:18:45.52\00:18:47.06
That's kind of how,
00:18:47.09\00:18:48.42
I mean we would have
never worded it that way,
00:18:48.46\00:18:49.79
not quite that
verbally arrogant,
00:18:49.82\00:18:52.69
I was not quite
that really arrogant...
00:18:52.73\00:18:55.60
But, you know, how
many people has God said,
00:18:55.63\00:18:58.07
you know what, that's cute
00:18:58.10\00:18:59.43
but we're going to
have to work on that.
00:18:59.47\00:19:02.14
And if you really love someone,
00:19:02.17\00:19:03.67
you'll pray that
prayer on their behalf
00:19:03.71\00:19:05.37
because he will be
faithful to show up
00:19:05.41\00:19:07.31
and show you
that, you're really...
00:19:07.34\00:19:09.41
He's really, really lucky
00:19:09.44\00:19:11.11
that he has a
really good summer.
00:19:11.15\00:19:12.51
So during that summer
00:19:12.55\00:19:15.12
where everything was opposite
00:19:15.15\00:19:16.79
and you could
see those opposites
00:19:16.82\00:19:18.29
just coming out like crazy.
00:19:18.32\00:19:22.12
I know that for you,
00:19:22.16\00:19:23.59
even the way you tell the story,
00:19:23.63\00:19:25.39
it was crazy making. It was.
00:19:25.43\00:19:27.20
Like I just want you to see
that this is not making sense.
00:19:27.23\00:19:30.50
So I just want you to
get it that, you know,
00:19:30.53\00:19:32.87
I'm the spiritual leader.
00:19:32.90\00:19:34.50
You know, whatever it
is so give me an instant.
00:19:34.54\00:19:38.44
For instance
what did it look like
00:19:38.47\00:19:41.58
and but you walked right
into the relationship anyway.
00:19:41.61\00:19:44.28
Yeah, we did.
00:19:44.31\00:19:46.41
I'm trying to
think of a good story...
00:19:46.45\00:19:47.88
Because it was a
million years ago.
00:19:47.92\00:19:49.32
There was a bunch, you know,
00:19:49.35\00:19:51.12
I can think of, you
know, there was, there was one.
00:19:51.15\00:19:54.26
There was one guy's staff who...
00:19:54.29\00:19:57.96
He just really, you
know, he didn't like me,
00:19:57.99\00:20:00.73
we didn't get along very well
00:20:00.76\00:20:02.20
and so he made a point of
being really friendly to Timmy,
00:20:02.23\00:20:05.30
and it just frosted my
hide and she didn't really see
00:20:05.33\00:20:08.77
why that was a problem
00:20:08.80\00:20:10.17
so that was an
example of this...
00:20:10.21\00:20:12.64
This gentlemen I
had been friends,
00:20:12.67\00:20:14.24
well, he was yeah,
00:20:14.28\00:20:15.61
we've been friends at college
00:20:15.64\00:20:17.65
but Richie and I had
been dating long distance
00:20:17.68\00:20:19.31
so like my normal
relationships at school
00:20:19.35\00:20:21.62
weren't really
affected by having a boyfriend.
00:20:21.65\00:20:23.25
Right.
00:20:23.28\00:20:24.62
And so that was it,
and that was probably
00:20:24.65\00:20:27.06
the hardest
transition of going into camp.
00:20:27.09\00:20:29.12
All of a sudden this
person I'm dating who I do love,
00:20:29.16\00:20:32.56
he's here in the flesh.
00:20:32.59\00:20:34.83
And it was like, oh,
oh, everything has to adjust
00:20:34.86\00:20:38.07
and it was
rather earth quaking...
00:20:38.10\00:20:39.53
Hard adjustment but,
00:20:39.57\00:20:40.90
there was this weird thing
00:20:40.94\00:20:42.27
and neither of us can
remember why we did this,
00:20:42.30\00:20:44.71
but going into that
summer we made a rule
00:20:44.74\00:20:47.88
and the rule was,
00:20:47.91\00:20:49.24
we're not going to
break up unless we both agree
00:20:49.28\00:20:51.61
that that's what needs
to happen at that time.
00:20:51.65\00:20:53.62
And that summer I don't know
how many times one of us said,
00:20:53.65\00:20:57.55
"I think we just need be done."
00:20:57.59\00:20:58.92
I'm done.
00:20:58.95\00:21:00.29
And the other one said,
00:21:00.32\00:21:01.66
"No, I don't
think we're done yet."
00:21:01.69\00:21:03.63
I don't know were
that really came from...
00:21:03.66\00:21:05.09
And we both abided by
it which is really strange.
00:21:05.13\00:21:08.26
So he said, you know,
you're right we need to quit.
00:21:08.30\00:21:10.97
Actually I don't think that now.
00:21:11.00\00:21:12.87
I think we need to stay together
00:21:12.90\00:21:14.24
and keep trying.
00:21:14.27\00:21:15.60
We can work this out
00:21:15.64\00:21:16.97
and he's like, "No,
I don't think we can,
00:21:17.01\00:21:18.34
we can, we can."
00:21:18.37\00:21:19.71
And then, you know,
00:21:19.74\00:21:21.08
another few days, you're right,
00:21:21.11\00:21:22.44
we should just
throw in the towel
00:21:22.48\00:21:23.81
he's like, "No, I see hope.
00:21:23.85\00:21:25.18
No."
00:21:25.21\00:21:27.25
Seriously that's how
it went the whole summer.
00:21:27.28\00:21:29.35
And we made it to the end
of the summer still together
00:21:29.38\00:21:32.69
because we could
never agree just to break up
00:21:32.72\00:21:35.39
and we decided to just
try dating in the same state
00:21:35.42\00:21:39.23
just for giggles
00:21:39.26\00:21:40.60
and so I went out
to do my undergrad
00:21:40.63\00:21:42.76
where he was doing seminary
00:21:42.80\00:21:44.27
and we started
talking about marriage
00:21:44.30\00:21:47.24
because it couldn't be
worse than what we just did,
00:21:47.27\00:21:49.74
we were so sure.
00:21:49.77\00:21:51.11
I love and I don't know
00:21:51.14\00:21:52.47
how many people are
probably watching this says,
00:21:52.51\00:21:54.81
that's exactly what I felt like
00:21:54.84\00:21:56.75
but we go through this
tumultuous relationship
00:21:56.78\00:22:00.58
and everybody's
still talking marriage,
00:22:00.62\00:22:02.52
that just cracks me up.
00:22:02.55\00:22:03.89
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:03.92\00:22:05.25
Well, and we didn't
have a whole lot of templates
00:22:05.29\00:22:07.16
at that point to know
what healthy relationship,
00:22:07.19\00:22:10.46
what marital
love should look like.
00:22:10.49\00:22:13.06
I mean I said
neither one of us did.
00:22:13.09\00:22:15.06
And so we were kind of
weaving a prayer in it through
00:22:15.10\00:22:18.50
and we didn't pray and
we were very intentional,
00:22:18.53\00:22:22.14
we asked specific
people in our lives after that
00:22:22.17\00:22:26.01
very, very bad summer.
00:22:26.04\00:22:28.01
We, you know, we said,
00:22:28.04\00:22:29.38
"Hey, we're
thinking about marriage
00:22:29.41\00:22:30.75
and we really want to
have a God honoring marriage
00:22:30.78\00:22:33.52
and so."
00:22:33.55\00:22:34.88
What do you think?
Yeah, what do you think?
00:22:34.92\00:22:36.25
And these are people
not inside of our family
00:22:36.28\00:22:37.62
who had worked with
us in ministry together
00:22:37.65\00:22:39.42
and say, you know,
00:22:39.45\00:22:40.79
if you have any
concerns at all anywhere,
00:22:40.82\00:22:43.69
we will either put
our engagement on hold
00:22:43.73\00:22:45.79
or we will call
it off completely.
00:22:45.83\00:22:48.00
If you say anything
and everyone's like,
00:22:48.03\00:22:50.60
"Oh, we love you
guys, we think you're great,
00:22:50.63\00:22:54.14
we just think you're
going to do good things for God,
00:22:54.17\00:22:56.17
go forth, kids."
00:22:56.20\00:22:57.54
Okay, we shall go forth."
00:22:57.57\00:23:00.44
And then we were ready
00:23:00.48\00:23:02.08
and so we got married
00:23:02.11\00:23:04.41
and then we got
into our honeymoon
00:23:04.45\00:23:08.42
which was...
00:23:08.45\00:23:11.62
That is not a
honeymoon look face,
00:23:11.65\00:23:14.32
I'm just
saying, it was like end.
00:23:14.36\00:23:17.33
And then all the
things we didn't know,
00:23:17.36\00:23:20.66
we didn't know smashed us
on the head like an anvil,
00:23:20.70\00:23:23.70
would that be appropriate?
00:23:23.73\00:23:25.07
Yeah, so we went
off on our honeymoon,
00:23:25.10\00:23:26.43
I mean like a
lot of young couples
00:23:26.47\00:23:28.20
we had, we had, you know, said,
00:23:28.24\00:23:30.07
we're going to save
physical intimacy for marriage
00:23:30.11\00:23:33.01
and so we were
excited about the honeymoon
00:23:33.04\00:23:35.58
and talking about how great
this is going to be to connect,
00:23:35.61\00:23:38.81
you know sexually and
we're looking forward to it
00:23:38.85\00:23:41.12
and so we leave our
wedding day exhausted,
00:23:41.15\00:23:43.95
you know...
00:23:43.99\00:23:45.32
That's a tiring day. And hungry.
00:23:45.35\00:23:46.82
Yeah and hungry,
00:23:46.86\00:23:48.29
and we're off on our honeymoon
00:23:48.32\00:23:49.66
and everything
fell apart the first...
00:23:49.69\00:23:52.79
What do you mean?
00:23:52.83\00:23:54.20
Well, sex didn't work
for us and we don't know why,
00:23:54.23\00:23:57.90
we read the books.
00:23:57.93\00:23:59.63
So now, I mean I'm in
20 books but we, we...
00:23:59.67\00:24:02.24
So we've read the books
00:24:02.27\00:24:03.61
on how sex is supposed to
work in marriage and all that...
00:24:03.64\00:24:05.71
And I've seen the movies
00:24:05.74\00:24:07.08
where all the
sudden everybody is just,
00:24:07.11\00:24:08.54
it's all that...
00:24:08.58\00:24:09.91
Well, we didn't
want marital counseling
00:24:09.94\00:24:11.28
and he warned us.
00:24:11.31\00:24:12.65
Okay, it's not going
to be like the movies.
00:24:12.68\00:24:14.02
Thank you.
00:24:14.05\00:24:15.38
Okay, we are ready then.
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.75
So that's all it really takes
00:24:16.79\00:24:18.12
it's not like the movies
and biology will take over.
00:24:18.15\00:24:20.56
Okay, we're ready then. Yeah.
00:24:20.59\00:24:22.42
But, well,
biology didn't take over,
00:24:22.46\00:24:24.46
now we understand that.
00:24:24.49\00:24:25.83
But it wasn't the way
that most people would expect
00:24:25.86\00:24:28.30
and so it literally did not work
00:24:28.33\00:24:30.40
and there was pain
instead of pleasure.
00:24:30.43\00:24:32.97
And so that touched
00:24:33.00\00:24:34.57
all kinds of things inside of me
00:24:34.60\00:24:36.37
and all kinds of
things inside of her
00:24:36.40\00:24:38.27
and so the way
that our honeymoon
00:24:38.31\00:24:39.84
ended quite literally was...
00:24:39.87\00:24:41.64
I remember one evening
00:24:41.68\00:24:43.01
we were on an island destination
00:24:43.04\00:24:44.68
and we're sitting on a beach
00:24:44.71\00:24:46.58
beautiful sunset over the ocean.
00:24:46.61\00:24:48.95
And we're watching this sunset,
00:24:48.98\00:24:50.32
Timmy on one end of the
beach and Richie on the other.
00:24:50.35\00:24:53.15
Wow.
00:24:53.19\00:24:54.52
And that's how
we started marriage
00:24:54.56\00:24:56.59
and we went into our marriage
00:24:56.62\00:24:58.69
so we had the summer from hell,
00:24:58.73\00:25:00.43
and now we have the
honeymoon from hell,
00:25:00.46\00:25:02.63
and now we go into
the first year from hell.
00:25:02.66\00:25:05.63
But I'm already pastoring...
00:25:05.67\00:25:07.00
Right.
00:25:07.04\00:25:08.37
So I have a district
that I'm a part of...
00:25:08.40\00:25:09.74
And even when you say that
00:25:09.77\00:25:11.17
because most people don't
know that as a pastoral couple
00:25:11.21\00:25:14.28
when you walk in
everybody puts their smile on,
00:25:14.31\00:25:17.15
we got our suit on,
00:25:17.18\00:25:19.31
you know how was your honeymoon?
00:25:19.35\00:25:20.68
It was great.
00:25:20.72\00:25:22.18
Let me show you some pictures
00:25:22.22\00:25:24.02
and you're walking
back into the house saying,
00:25:24.05\00:25:26.15
what have I done?
00:25:26.19\00:25:28.29
Well, and it wasn't
that we necessarily, I know,
00:25:28.32\00:25:30.29
what have I done,
00:25:30.33\00:25:31.66
like we weren't
committed to each other.
00:25:31.69\00:25:33.33
We just, we didn't have any idea
00:25:33.36\00:25:35.03
what was the way forward.
00:25:35.06\00:25:36.40
I mean is there a way forward
00:25:36.43\00:25:38.13
and because we were
already in ministry,
00:25:38.17\00:25:40.60
I was finishing college,
00:25:40.64\00:25:42.10
Richie was pastoring and
I was commuting to school.
00:25:42.14\00:25:44.57
But we didn't,
we didn't even know
00:25:44.61\00:25:46.47
how to ask for help.
00:25:46.51\00:25:47.84
We didn't know
where to ask for help.
00:25:47.88\00:25:49.21
Who do you ask
when you're the ones
00:25:49.24\00:25:50.58
who are supposed
to be the, you know,
00:25:50.61\00:25:51.95
religious know it alls.
00:25:51.98\00:25:53.31
Yeah.
00:25:53.35\00:25:54.68
You know, where do
you go and what do you do,
00:25:54.72\00:25:56.65
and we were at a complete loss.
00:25:56.69\00:25:59.09
So what that meant is
we were trying really hard
00:25:59.12\00:26:01.82
reading more books
because we're both readers.
00:26:01.86\00:26:04.26
You know, we're reading books
00:26:04.29\00:26:05.63
and we're trying
to figure it out,
00:26:05.66\00:26:07.00
but we have no tools.
00:26:07.03\00:26:08.40
We don't even know
how to put language around
00:26:08.43\00:26:11.40
what's happening to
even tell someone about it
00:26:11.43\00:26:14.44
and yet we have to go out
00:26:14.47\00:26:16.20
and put on our
happy ministry faces
00:26:16.24\00:26:18.01
so it was literally a...
00:26:18.04\00:26:20.24
I would like to say
00:26:20.28\00:26:22.51
this is a great time for us
to take a break and come back,
00:26:22.54\00:26:25.55
because what I'm
seeing is with everything
00:26:25.58\00:26:30.85
that you've described
00:26:30.89\00:26:32.22
as described as
far as childhood,
00:26:32.25\00:26:34.56
all of the thing
that led to this,
00:26:34.59\00:26:36.32
you're happy ever after,
00:26:36.36\00:26:38.26
all of the sudden is in question
00:26:38.29\00:26:40.50
and you are
screaming out who do I talk to.
00:26:40.53\00:26:43.16
And we have
taught people in ministry
00:26:43.20\00:26:45.63
to kind of just live in
silence with that stuff,
00:26:45.67\00:26:49.70
and I know that
that's not what you did.
00:26:49.74\00:26:52.07
So if you are at all looking
at your own relationships
00:26:52.11\00:26:56.34
while they're
talking is like good for you.
00:26:56.38\00:26:58.55
Good on you for that.
00:26:58.58\00:26:59.91
If you are, you know,
00:26:59.95\00:27:01.58
someone that is struggling,
00:27:01.62\00:27:03.15
just stay with us,
00:27:03.18\00:27:04.52
because this is
actually an incredible ending.
00:27:04.55\00:27:08.79
And not even ending,
because we're not done yet,
00:27:08.82\00:27:10.83
but this is just
an incredible journey
00:27:10.86\00:27:12.49
so stay with us.
00:27:12.53\00:27:13.86
We'll be right back.
00:27:13.90\00:27:15.23