The following program
discusses sensitive issues
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.33
related to addictive behavior.
00:00:03.37\00:00:05.00
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:05.03\00:00:06.77
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:06.80\00:00:09.20
Welcome back, you know,
if you missed the first half,
00:00:12.91\00:00:16.71
we're talking about to a couple,
00:00:16.75\00:00:19.35
Jay and Angelia
00:00:19.38\00:00:20.78
that one day
everything's different.
00:00:20.82\00:00:26.59
You walk into the
backyard, Angelia, and your son,
00:00:26.62\00:00:30.63
your baby is in
the bottom of the pool.
00:00:30.66\00:00:33.80
And, you know,
you talked about that
00:00:33.83\00:00:35.53
and your other
son having to jump in,
00:00:35.56\00:00:39.03
he just couldn't
breathe and how that happened
00:00:39.07\00:00:41.60
but you know Jay,
there was one point
00:00:41.64\00:00:43.81
where you were called at work.
00:00:43.84\00:00:48.11
I was on my way
home and I had to pull up
00:00:48.14\00:00:51.91
to a stop sign
and the stop signs
00:00:51.95\00:00:54.02
and square side of my
house, it was not a corner lot,
00:00:54.05\00:00:56.38
but I could plainly
see there's no trees
00:00:56.42\00:00:58.45
or anything right there.
00:00:58.49\00:00:59.82
And from where
I am ten cars back
00:00:59.85\00:01:01.82
in some traffic going
through a four way stop
00:01:01.86\00:01:05.13
I could plainly see there's
a helicopter in my side yard
00:01:05.16\00:01:08.20
and it's right in the half
way in the grass over there
00:01:08.23\00:01:10.90
next to the Baptist
Church, and I realized suddenly
00:01:10.93\00:01:15.24
that there my whole
house was a bevy of activity.
00:01:15.27\00:01:18.21
There was a lot of
people at my house,
00:01:18.24\00:01:19.64
and I did not
understand it but I...
00:01:19.67\00:01:22.51
just like she said,
it slowly turns in you
00:01:22.54\00:01:25.25
where you realize.
00:01:25.28\00:01:26.85
I didn't know what would happen
but something bad had happened,
00:01:26.88\00:01:28.92
and I commenced to honk the horn
00:01:28.95\00:01:30.92
and try to race around people
and I finally got through,
00:01:30.95\00:01:33.49
couldn't pull in the front yard
00:01:33.52\00:01:34.86
because there was a
fire truck in the front yard,
00:01:34.89\00:01:36.83
drove through the ditch,
pulled up beside somebody...
00:01:36.86\00:01:38.86
So this is not
that somebody called you
00:01:38.89\00:01:40.90
and you were prepped for this,
00:01:40.93\00:01:42.40
is it you were on your way home?
00:01:42.43\00:01:44.03
That's right, I
showed up in the middle of it
00:01:44.07\00:01:46.33
while it's still
kind of happening.
00:01:46.37\00:01:48.17
And what I see is
there's an ambulance there
00:01:48.20\00:01:51.97
and I pull up
into the front yard.
00:01:52.01\00:01:53.34
And I found that my son had
drowned from some young lady
00:01:53.38\00:01:57.75
who worked with
the first responder
00:01:57.78\00:01:59.35
and she ran by I
said, "What has happened,"
00:01:59.38\00:02:01.65
and she just
looked at me and she goes,
00:02:01.68\00:02:03.18
"It's a drowning."
00:02:03.22\00:02:04.72
And that's how and then
00:02:04.75\00:02:07.59
but I didn't know who it was yet
00:02:07.62\00:02:08.96
and I was really
emotional at that time.
00:02:08.99\00:02:10.56
Right. Right.
00:02:10.59\00:02:11.93
And so I ran
around to the backyard
00:02:11.96\00:02:14.06
where the pool is
where most of the attention
00:02:14.10\00:02:16.16
seems to be heading
00:02:16.20\00:02:17.53
and by that time
they've grabbed my son
00:02:17.57\00:02:20.67
from my other son and Angelia
00:02:20.70\00:02:23.07
and they ran
him to the ambulance
00:02:23.10\00:02:25.97
to resuscitate
him and to work on him
00:02:26.01\00:02:29.08
and hook him up
and so they could get
00:02:29.11\00:02:30.68
some input from the hospital.
00:02:30.71\00:02:32.58
So I ran into the backyard
00:02:32.61\00:02:33.95
and I know this
sounds incredibly strange,
00:02:33.98\00:02:35.55
there was nobody back there
with my wife and my children.
00:02:35.58\00:02:38.75
And she was there by herself
in a puddle up on some stairs.
00:02:38.79\00:02:45.09
And she didn't want me
to stay there ten seconds.
00:02:45.13\00:02:47.60
She needed me to
move back to the ambulance
00:02:47.63\00:02:49.33
so that I could do
something to help my son, right.
00:02:49.36\00:02:52.43
And in my family I'm
kind of seen that way
00:02:52.47\00:02:54.97
since I'm a
veterinarian that something
00:02:55.00\00:02:57.27
that I could bring
something good to it.
00:02:57.31\00:02:58.74
That's what was on
her plate and she told me,
00:02:58.77\00:03:01.48
"I'll be fine, you go
find out what's going on."
00:03:01.51\00:03:04.61
So I run around and sure
enough there's my son Ramsey
00:03:04.65\00:03:08.05
on the table in there and
strange beyond all belief,
00:03:08.08\00:03:11.59
ma'am, there's nobody with him.
00:03:11.62\00:03:13.19
I think he has,
00:03:13.22\00:03:15.32
they have quit
resuscitation on him.
00:03:15.36\00:03:21.16
And so I take an opportunity
right behind that ambulance
00:03:21.20\00:03:25.03
to get some praying
00:03:25.07\00:03:26.94
and I evidently
drew quite a crowd.
00:03:26.97\00:03:29.30
I got some I wanted for
Jesus behind that ambulance.
00:03:29.34\00:03:32.97
Because when you say,
you know, I'm praying,
00:03:33.01\00:03:34.94
this is not a silent
prayer, this is not...
00:03:34.98\00:03:36.68
Oh, no.
00:03:36.71\00:03:38.05
You know,
something that you have heard
00:03:38.08\00:03:39.41
in church every week.
00:03:39.45\00:03:40.98
This is that God...
00:03:41.02\00:03:43.62
Yeah, this is
something like this.
00:03:43.65\00:03:45.79
You're the creator
and you made my son.
00:03:45.82\00:03:48.86
You know what he needs now
and I need you for him now.
00:03:48.89\00:03:55.23
Yes. You could fix it.
00:03:55.26\00:03:57.73
It's not too
late. It's not too late.
00:03:57.77\00:04:01.07
That's the kind of
prayer I came up with
00:04:01.10\00:04:03.10
and I was not
gracious in it either.
00:04:03.14\00:04:05.64
I mean I was pretty
loud just like you think.
00:04:05.67\00:04:07.74
And about the time
00:04:07.78\00:04:10.08
that I'm getting
finished with my praying,
00:04:10.11\00:04:11.45
I think I had a
good two minute go at it.
00:04:11.48\00:04:13.48
Somebody came in,
and grabbed my son
00:04:13.52\00:04:15.08
and headed him
to the helicopter.
00:04:15.12\00:04:18.15
And I ran beside them
to get into the helicopter.
00:04:18.19\00:04:21.39
My opinion was that he was gone
00:04:21.42\00:04:23.39
and then when the
helicopter took off,
00:04:23.43\00:04:25.16
I went back to the ambulance
00:04:25.19\00:04:27.70
and jumped inside the ambulance,
00:04:27.73\00:04:29.63
and went through about 20 yards
of EKG strip and he was gone.
00:04:29.66\00:04:35.27
Because he knew
what to look for,
00:04:35.30\00:04:36.94
we knew what
you were looking at.
00:04:36.97\00:04:38.31
Oh, yeah.
00:04:38.34\00:04:39.67
So as, you know, I am
looking at both of you
00:04:39.71\00:04:42.94
and knowing that
you're in the backyard,
00:04:42.98\00:04:45.35
you're in the ambulance.
00:04:45.38\00:04:48.62
What's the next,
what do you do next?
00:04:48.65\00:04:51.99
When they start to take off,
00:04:52.02\00:04:53.99
we had a little
bit of a confrontation
00:04:54.02\00:04:57.56
because I run to get
my wife and my children
00:04:57.59\00:04:59.33
and I put them in this our van.
00:04:59.36\00:05:01.56
I'm going to the hospital
00:05:01.60\00:05:03.37
and they don't
really want us to go.
00:05:03.40\00:05:06.13
They don't want us to drive off,
00:05:06.17\00:05:07.50
we're not in really good shape
and they don't want us to go,
00:05:07.54\00:05:09.84
and I'm relatively forcefully
got everybody off the van
00:05:09.87\00:05:13.24
and we took off,
and then we drove
00:05:13.27\00:05:14.91
and then we prayed on the
way, it was quite a scene.
00:05:14.94\00:05:17.21
Do you remember
that? Yeah. Yes, I do.
00:05:17.25\00:05:19.15
And we begged,
we pleaded, we did,
00:05:19.18\00:05:22.58
we did everything that
you might imagine loudly,
00:05:22.62\00:05:27.32
loudly complete desperation.
00:05:27.36\00:05:30.73
The children are
in the floorboard
00:05:30.76\00:05:32.29
I mean, we
are... And they are...
00:05:32.33\00:05:34.23
Yes.
00:05:34.26\00:05:35.60
Pray kids,
these kids are babies,
00:05:35.63\00:05:37.17
and they are
praying for their brother
00:05:37.20\00:05:40.50
and it was
unanswered, wasn't answered.
00:05:40.54\00:05:44.64
So you get to, you
make it to the hospital,
00:05:44.67\00:05:48.18
I can't even, you
know, even talking
00:05:48.21\00:05:50.28
and you said something, Jay,
00:05:50.31\00:05:51.81
to me one time is you
said, I've got when you talk
00:05:51.85\00:05:56.35
and you see the
pain in someone else.
00:05:56.38\00:05:58.69
It's almost like part of
you wants to kind of step in
00:05:58.72\00:06:01.19
and even taken care of
them because even sitting here
00:06:01.22\00:06:05.13
and talking with you now,
00:06:05.16\00:06:06.70
I don't know the
next question to ask.
00:06:06.73\00:06:08.53
I don't even know, I
know that, how did you,
00:06:08.56\00:06:11.40
how did you get there?
00:06:11.43\00:06:12.77
How did you, you know,
00:06:12.80\00:06:14.17
how did you make breakfast
the next day or did you?
00:06:14.20\00:06:17.74
I mean what was the
next part of your life
00:06:17.77\00:06:20.24
because you've got to
come to grips with God,
00:06:20.28\00:06:23.75
were you not hearing
us, is this your fault too.
00:06:23.78\00:06:26.65
Are you not pleased with
us? Did we do something wrong?
00:06:26.68\00:06:30.02
All of those questions
that you want to scream.
00:06:30.05\00:06:33.22
Did you scream?
00:06:33.25\00:06:35.36
I remember that night,
we got back home I was,
00:06:35.39\00:06:39.49
you know, I...
00:06:39.53\00:06:40.86
they allowed me to hold him
for hours probably four hours.
00:06:40.90\00:06:44.60
You know and our
other children are watching
00:06:44.63\00:06:47.04
because I knew
that was the last time.
00:06:47.07\00:06:49.74
You know, and so we had
to gather our children up
00:06:49.77\00:06:53.58
and go back to the house.
00:06:53.61\00:06:55.71
Without Ramsey.
00:06:55.74\00:06:57.08
Without Ramsey, you know,
00:06:57.11\00:06:59.21
and I remember
the day that Chandler,
00:06:59.25\00:07:01.42
the middle son said, "Mommy,
can we just close his door."
00:07:01.45\00:07:05.62
The pain was so
great, the loss was so deep.
00:07:05.65\00:07:10.29
"Can we just
close his door, mommy."
00:07:10.33\00:07:12.66
And then, I remember
the day that he also said,
00:07:12.69\00:07:15.80
"Can we just not
put this picture here,"
00:07:15.83\00:07:18.73
because he could
not, he couldn't face it.
00:07:18.77\00:07:21.90
I can't look at this.
00:07:21.94\00:07:23.27
"I can't do this now,
mommy, I can't do it now."
00:07:23.30\00:07:26.24
And, you know, you
talk about breakfast,
00:07:26.27\00:07:28.38
I remember my,
00:07:28.41\00:07:30.95
I actually remember my
children asking for a sandwich,
00:07:30.98\00:07:34.82
three hours later I remembered
00:07:34.85\00:07:37.49
because the
depression was so great.
00:07:37.52\00:07:39.69
And if they didn't, I couldn't
find my car keys, Cheri,
00:07:39.72\00:07:42.92
you know, we were functioning
day to day step by step.
00:07:42.96\00:07:47.26
That first night that you're
talking about we got back.
00:07:47.30\00:07:50.40
We got everybody settled
00:07:50.43\00:07:52.17
and I remember
we're just weeping
00:07:52.20\00:07:55.54
and weeping and crying
out to God laying in the bed
00:07:55.57\00:07:59.07
and I remember saying out loud.
00:07:59.11\00:08:02.34
Now, I love Jesus with
every ounce of my being.
00:08:02.38\00:08:05.75
And I said, this, "How am
I supposed to trust you now,
00:08:05.78\00:08:12.52
how can I trust
you with my other two."
00:08:12.55\00:08:15.82
Now I'm telling you
that shook us to the core.
00:08:15.86\00:08:21.46
Exactly.
00:08:21.50\00:08:22.83
And how do you get to
the place where you say,
00:08:22.86\00:08:26.20
okay, I can trust you.
00:08:26.23\00:08:28.47
Well, I'm telling you, it
took years, it took years.
00:08:28.50\00:08:31.57
And you know what,
00:08:31.61\00:08:33.11
I just have to thank you
every single time you say that,
00:08:33.14\00:08:36.11
because I think that we
do want things in a bow.
00:08:36.14\00:08:38.81
We do want things explained.
00:08:38.85\00:08:40.62
We do want to, you know,
we want to say, you know,
00:08:40.65\00:08:43.08
if I do the right thing,
00:08:43.12\00:08:44.45
the right thing
is going to happen.
00:08:44.49\00:08:45.82
Right. It's right.
00:08:45.85\00:08:47.19
And when it doesn't...
00:08:47.22\00:08:48.89
Yes.
00:08:48.92\00:08:50.26
Who do we blame and
we tend to blame God.
00:08:50.29\00:08:53.09
And I think that
I have to go back
00:08:53.13\00:08:56.26
and this is a crazy thing,
00:08:56.30\00:08:58.43
but I have to go
back in my own life
00:08:58.47\00:09:00.40
and I have screamed at
God and said, "You know,
00:09:00.44\00:09:02.57
why did you let this happen."
00:09:02.60\00:09:04.57
I mean, you know, and
God said, "Man every day,
00:09:04.61\00:09:09.11
every day I try to
intervene every day, you know,
00:09:09.14\00:09:12.25
we're in a world
that's out of control,
00:09:12.28\00:09:14.92
"And I promise you, I
did not let this happen.
00:09:14.95\00:09:18.59
This was not my plan for
you. It is not my fault."
00:09:18.62\00:09:23.29
And so, you
know, even with you Jay
00:09:23.32\00:09:26.53
that for you being a
father everybody look to you
00:09:26.56\00:09:31.17
to do the right thing,
to be able to intervene,
00:09:31.20\00:09:33.60
to make it better,
00:09:33.64\00:09:35.04
to come in and write
everything that's wrong.
00:09:35.07\00:09:38.61
And in that moment knowing that,
00:09:38.64\00:09:40.81
"Man, there is
nothing that I can do."
00:09:40.84\00:09:44.31
Yeah, there's
nothing you could do,
00:09:44.35\00:09:47.78
but I did latch on
to an idea pretty early.
00:09:47.82\00:09:51.05
And I told my
children it wasn't their fault.
00:09:51.09\00:09:55.22
Amen. Yes.
00:09:55.26\00:09:56.93
You know they
needed to know that.
00:09:56.96\00:09:58.53
Right, because everybody
around the incident like this
00:09:58.56\00:10:01.36
pretty much engineers a
method that they caused it.
00:10:01.40\00:10:04.63
I had a little girl
call that talked to my son
00:10:04.67\00:10:07.10
50 minutes before my son drowned
00:10:07.14\00:10:09.00
and she thought
it was her fault.
00:10:09.04\00:10:10.91
I talked to Ramsey on
the phone and he said,
00:10:10.94\00:10:13.64
"I might get to be able
to get in the pool today."
00:10:13.68\00:10:16.21
And when Jam Benjamin
got back on the phone.
00:10:16.24\00:10:17.91
I didn't tell you,
for her it was her fault.
00:10:17.95\00:10:20.78
It wasn't her fault. Yes.
00:10:20.82\00:10:22.38
It was no way her fault. Right.
00:10:22.42\00:10:23.95
For her she engineered that.
00:10:23.99\00:10:25.65
Is my son Benjamin, I could
have been down there quicker.
00:10:25.69\00:10:28.26
I think I heard mom sooner.
00:10:28.29\00:10:29.89
I could have arrived quicker.
I could have fixed him, yeah.
00:10:29.92\00:10:32.36
Jam Benjamin, if you
could have done anything,
00:10:32.39\00:10:34.86
you could have
saved your brother.
00:10:34.90\00:10:36.23
Yes.
00:10:36.26\00:10:37.70
And for Angelia,
you love that boy,
00:10:37.73\00:10:41.34
this is not an
outcome you desired,
00:10:41.37\00:10:43.54
you did not do this.
00:10:43.57\00:10:45.41
If you...
00:10:45.44\00:10:48.48
There's just no way that
that fits with who you are
00:10:48.51\00:10:50.75
and how you cared for the
boy, how much he means for you
00:10:50.78\00:10:53.08
and how much
you're grieving now,
00:10:53.11\00:10:54.58
you didn't do it.
00:10:54.62\00:10:56.02
You just didn't do it.
It has to be said a lot.
00:10:56.05\00:10:59.39
You know, when I heard
from Angelia the first time
00:10:59.42\00:11:03.66
we talked is that you said
that pretty quickly to her,
00:11:03.69\00:11:07.10
this is not your fault.
00:11:07.13\00:11:09.36
Yes. That's amazing.
00:11:09.40\00:11:10.97
But you didn't hear
that for yourself, did you?
00:11:11.00\00:11:13.84
No, no I pretty
sure was my fault.
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.57
Okay.
00:11:15.60\00:11:16.94
There was, I
could have been there.
00:11:16.97\00:11:18.41
You know I spend my
whole life day to day
00:11:18.44\00:11:20.78
since I'm a veterinarian.
00:11:20.81\00:11:22.14
I'm working really hard
to save one pound kitten
00:11:22.18\00:11:25.11
happened to me
yesterday, I was successful
00:11:25.15\00:11:28.18
and yet I was not
afforded the opportunity,
00:11:28.22\00:11:30.59
and I was not
successful with my own son.
00:11:30.62\00:11:32.99
There's a lot of inequity there
that really will grind on you
00:11:33.02\00:11:35.62
over a long period of time.
00:11:35.66\00:11:37.49
And just like you said,
you got all these big questions
00:11:37.53\00:11:40.16
just like you said it
was whose fault is it,
00:11:40.20\00:11:42.03
why did it happen.
00:11:42.06\00:11:43.40
And the idea that
all those would come
00:11:43.43\00:11:44.80
and you might scream those out.
00:11:44.83\00:11:46.30
You might but
you'll scream them out
00:11:46.33\00:11:47.67
in really slow motion
over about five years,
00:11:47.70\00:11:51.47
like you might
spend this month worried.
00:11:51.51\00:11:54.01
Did God decide
you were off the track
00:11:54.04\00:11:56.34
and would use your
son to bring you back on?
00:11:56.38\00:11:58.51
You might play with
that idea for a month or so
00:11:58.55\00:12:01.78
before it found
that it had no value
00:12:01.82\00:12:04.42
that it wasn't true.
00:12:04.45\00:12:05.79
And what you say
for a month or so,
00:12:05.82\00:12:07.46
we're nowhere in
00:12:07.49\00:12:08.82
and I think that we really want
to wrap things up pretty quick.
00:12:08.86\00:12:11.09
We give people
usually maybe a month
00:12:11.13\00:12:14.56
to four or five
months to grieve.
00:12:14.60\00:12:16.60
I mean and it's
crazy, I'm just saying
00:12:16.63\00:12:19.40
that I watch even in my own self
00:12:19.43\00:12:22.57
because I don't know what to say
00:12:22.60\00:12:23.94
is that we want
someone to grieve
00:12:23.97\00:12:25.31
and kind of get back together
be get back to yourself.
00:12:25.34\00:12:28.84
And what you're
saying is you can't do that.
00:12:28.88\00:12:31.71
No, it's a
journey to know where,
00:12:31.75\00:12:33.08
you're not headed
back where you were.
00:12:33.11\00:12:35.18
You said it right
off at the beginning
00:12:35.22\00:12:36.65
is that the lives were changed.
00:12:36.69\00:12:38.72
They are changed.
00:12:38.75\00:12:40.09
And you're on the path,
you are not going to arrive
00:12:40.12\00:12:42.22
at the place that you were,
00:12:42.26\00:12:43.63
when I was
sitting at that stop sign,
00:12:43.66\00:12:44.99
looked across the
street and realized somebody,
00:12:45.03\00:12:46.90
or somebody, that something
had happened in my house.
00:12:46.93\00:12:48.46
There's a helicopter in my yard.
00:12:48.50\00:12:49.83
I will not become
that person again.
00:12:49.86\00:12:51.53
It is not, it's not on the menu.
00:12:51.57\00:12:53.70
So when you talk, when we're
talking about this situation
00:12:53.74\00:12:57.34
and you're
saying there were times
00:12:57.37\00:12:58.71
that I couldn't even
get up and make a meal.
00:12:58.74\00:13:01.31
I'm trying to get
some daily routine
00:13:01.34\00:13:03.18
and the depression is so great.
00:13:03.21\00:13:05.81
You're taking
care of everybody else,
00:13:05.85\00:13:08.18
so that they know
it's not your fault,
00:13:08.22\00:13:09.58
but you're
feeling deeply wounded
00:13:09.62\00:13:11.32
that somehow you could
have done something different.
00:13:11.35\00:13:13.96
So what is the grieving,
00:13:13.99\00:13:16.06
you know how is it
different for men and women
00:13:16.09\00:13:18.23
because it's so different
00:13:18.26\00:13:19.96
and how do you even
smile again, laugh again,
00:13:20.00\00:13:26.50
because I know
that that happens.
00:13:26.53\00:13:29.67
You are one of
the most joyful woman.
00:13:29.70\00:13:33.34
And you and I just
haven't talked enough for me
00:13:33.38\00:13:36.34
to know that but even
I can say that, you know,
00:13:36.38\00:13:38.91
this huge heartbreak,
00:13:38.95\00:13:40.28
the joy is back, all
of that kind of stuff.
00:13:40.32\00:13:42.12
And so how do you
go from that place
00:13:42.15\00:13:44.65
to standing back up and
what does that look like,
00:13:44.69\00:13:46.62
and how is it
different with the two of you?
00:13:46.65\00:13:50.09
I think for me while I
was questioning everything,
00:13:50.13\00:13:55.00
how could this be happening.
00:13:55.03\00:13:57.37
One morning, just I'm
just completely broken
00:13:57.40\00:14:02.27
and you know that still
quiet voice speaks to you
00:14:02.30\00:14:07.28
and I'm just
praying, I'm like, God,
00:14:07.31\00:14:09.11
anybody would be a
better mother than me.
00:14:09.14\00:14:11.18
Just let me go to,
just anybody to be...
00:14:11.21\00:14:14.85
Just please, I can't do this.
00:14:14.88\00:14:17.42
I can't walk this, you know.
00:14:17.45\00:14:19.75
Why didn't you show up
if you are this good God?
00:14:19.79\00:14:24.33
Why am I finding myself here
00:14:24.36\00:14:26.56
and why didn't you
intervene like you said,
00:14:26.59\00:14:29.63
and I will never forget
the moment he said to me,
00:14:29.66\00:14:32.70
"What makes you think I
wasn't there the whole time."
00:14:32.73\00:14:38.37
I'm omnipresent, that means
he's everywhere all the time,
00:14:38.41\00:14:42.34
and if he weren't,
00:14:42.38\00:14:43.71
then things that
happened in our life
00:14:43.75\00:14:45.41
would catch him off guard.
00:14:45.45\00:14:47.42
That's not the God we serve.
00:14:47.45\00:14:49.42
He is not unaware
of our circumstance.
00:14:49.45\00:14:53.92
He's not, he's not
unaware of your pain.
00:14:53.96\00:14:57.13
And so for me, knowing that
00:14:57.16\00:14:59.89
and taking
myself back to the fall.
00:14:59.93\00:15:03.23
God never intended
for us to bury children.
00:15:03.26\00:15:05.87
He never intended for cancer
00:15:05.90\00:15:07.87
to be part of a lot
of people's journey,
00:15:07.90\00:15:10.17
and divorce and
all of those things
00:15:10.21\00:15:13.38
that was never part of the plan.
00:15:13.41\00:15:15.64
Thanks Adam and Eve,
00:15:15.68\00:15:17.01
and because of
that sin entered in
00:15:17.05\00:15:19.55
and because sin entered in,
00:15:19.58\00:15:21.92
now we bury children
and parents and we suffer.
00:15:21.95\00:15:26.15
You know and so to
look at that and say,
00:15:26.19\00:15:28.16
"God you caused that."
00:15:28.19\00:15:30.39
No, he said, good God,
00:15:30.43\00:15:32.09
I had to go all the
way back to his attributes.
00:15:32.13\00:15:34.90
He is loving, he is kind,
he is gentle, he loves me,
00:15:34.93\00:15:37.90
he means good towards me.
00:15:37.93\00:15:39.70
I plan evil for
no one. There you go.
00:15:39.73\00:15:42.27
I mean...
00:15:42.30\00:15:43.64
All good things are
from above, all good things,
00:15:43.67\00:15:45.77
and this was not good.
00:15:45.81\00:15:47.51
And so, you know, when
we wrestle through that,
00:15:47.54\00:15:50.68
was it your fault or your fault
or whose fault and you know
00:15:50.71\00:15:53.28
even people as Jay said,
that weren't in our family,
00:15:53.31\00:15:56.35
they would say
that, and I'm like,
00:15:56.38\00:15:58.29
"Nothing you could have done
00:15:58.32\00:16:00.96
would have stopped that moment."
00:16:00.99\00:16:02.42
I don't believe that.
00:16:02.46\00:16:03.79
I believe that
moment was Ramsey's moment.
00:16:03.83\00:16:06.03
Because if anything could
have been done in the natural,
00:16:06.06\00:16:08.83
believe me, we
would have done it.
00:16:08.86\00:16:10.70
So we have to
say, God, you saw it.
00:16:10.73\00:16:13.70
God, this is where we are,
00:16:13.74\00:16:15.24
now if there's
anything left in me
00:16:15.27\00:16:17.97
that you can use, take
it I want to give that...
00:16:18.01\00:16:20.34
So, Angelia, what I'm hearing
you say is there was a moment
00:16:20.38\00:16:25.58
where you surrendered yourself
back into the arms of God.
00:16:25.61\00:16:28.48
Yes. Yes. Okay, I trust you.
00:16:28.52\00:16:32.79
I may not be
able to explain this
00:16:32.82\00:16:34.42
but I trust you.
00:16:34.46\00:16:35.82
I had to, Cheri,
because who else could help me.
00:16:35.86\00:16:41.00
Where was I
going to go for help?
00:16:41.03\00:16:43.77
He was the only place to go.
00:16:43.80\00:16:46.00
And so if he created me,
if he knows all about me.
00:16:46.03\00:16:50.61
He knew that circumstance
00:16:50.64\00:16:52.14
and he knew the
depth of my suffering
00:16:52.17\00:16:54.41
and he also knew that
I didn't want to live.
00:16:54.44\00:16:57.78
He also saw the dark place
00:16:57.81\00:17:00.35
where I remember the day I said,
00:17:00.38\00:17:02.65
"If I can just
get my clothes on,
00:17:02.68\00:17:04.95
by noon I will win."
00:17:04.99\00:17:08.42
Noon, if I can
just not even shower,
00:17:08.46\00:17:12.56
not even brush my teeth,
00:17:12.59\00:17:13.93
if I can just
get out of this bed,
00:17:13.96\00:17:16.87
I'm going to win.
00:17:16.90\00:17:18.23
And that is how I started
digging out of that hole.
00:17:18.27\00:17:21.30
My God, you've
got to take this hand
00:17:21.34\00:17:22.80
because I cannot walk this.
00:17:22.84\00:17:25.91
And he's done it everyday since.
00:17:25.94\00:17:28.08
He says, I want
you to choose to live.
00:17:28.11\00:17:29.94
Choose life. Choose life.
00:17:29.98\00:17:31.95
But, you know, I was at a place
00:17:31.98\00:17:33.72
where I had to
make a hard decision,
00:17:33.75\00:17:35.48
and you know where
I was at that place
00:17:35.52\00:17:38.05
where I was about 18
months where I'm still going.
00:17:38.09\00:17:42.46
I don't want to do this.
00:17:42.49\00:17:45.06
I just could not
stop saying that,
00:17:45.09\00:17:47.23
I don't, I can't and I don't.
00:17:47.26\00:17:49.80
And I remember as clear
as I have ever heard a word
00:17:49.83\00:17:54.70
was that you have got to
choose either bitter or better.
00:17:54.74\00:17:59.17
You will stay in
this place bitter,
00:17:59.21\00:18:03.14
you would die in this
place or you would choose life
00:18:03.18\00:18:06.61
and she's better.
00:18:06.65\00:18:08.02
Let me heal you.
00:18:08.05\00:18:09.38
And that is what
I chose 18 months...
00:18:09.42\00:18:11.79
And so we're talking about,
00:18:11.82\00:18:14.32
I know just from
friends that men and women
00:18:14.36\00:18:18.36
go through this
process so differently.
00:18:18.39\00:18:20.86
You know, can you start out
00:18:20.90\00:18:22.60
with even you
going into the pool.
00:18:22.63\00:18:25.47
And how did you get to the place
00:18:25.50\00:18:27.34
where you could say, okay,
00:18:27.37\00:18:30.94
I can step back into
my relationship with God,
00:18:30.97\00:18:33.78
I can step back
into my own skin.
00:18:33.81\00:18:35.94
And like you said
you're talking years.
00:18:35.98\00:18:38.85
Took a very long time
00:18:38.88\00:18:40.38
but pretty quickly the
next day I did what you said,
00:18:40.42\00:18:43.75
I was first
washed with the emotion
00:18:43.79\00:18:47.46
of what it was like for him.
00:18:47.49\00:18:51.26
What he was feeling?
Was he scared? Did he hurt?
00:18:51.29\00:18:57.13
So to work that
out, I got in the pool,
00:18:57.17\00:19:00.97
I wasn't drowning myself
but I wanted to lay down there
00:19:01.00\00:19:02.97
where he was so I
did, I got right there,
00:19:03.00\00:19:05.37
I mean it was the next day.
00:19:05.41\00:19:06.74
And I'm at the
bottom of the pool laying,
00:19:06.78\00:19:08.41
sitting at the spot
where Angelia goes right there.
00:19:08.44\00:19:14.22
With my clothes on,
I jumped in the pool.
00:19:14.25\00:19:16.08
And I get down to the bottom
and I lay on the back and I go,
00:19:16.12\00:19:20.69
it's kind of quiet and
the temperature is nice,
00:19:20.72\00:19:26.16
but as I look up,
the Baptist Church
00:19:26.19\00:19:28.33
that is right next door,
00:19:28.36\00:19:29.70
the cross is reflecting
on the top of the water.
00:19:29.73\00:19:33.34
It sounds crazy but
it meant a lot to me
00:19:33.37\00:19:35.87
that Jesus was
right there with him.
00:19:35.90\00:19:40.48
He wasn't by himself. Yeah.
00:19:40.51\00:19:42.44
I wasn't there but he was there.
00:19:42.48\00:19:44.58
Amen.
00:19:44.61\00:19:45.95
For my place that
was really relief,
00:19:45.98\00:19:49.05
I thought he was
by himself really.
00:19:49.08\00:19:51.09
I made it terrible in
my mind but the truth is
00:19:51.12\00:19:53.82
that Jesus was
there and he could,
00:19:53.86\00:19:57.43
and he could see that,
it meant everything to me.
00:19:57.46\00:20:00.26
Amen. And I started right there.
00:20:00.30\00:20:01.86
And from the guy perspective,
I had a tons of questions.
00:20:01.90\00:20:06.67
And I had a ton of anger
00:20:06.70\00:20:08.37
that's the way
that I wanted this.
00:20:08.40\00:20:10.04
No question.
00:20:10.07\00:20:11.41
I'm good in that,
and nobody consoled me
00:20:11.44\00:20:14.78
because they get the
same questions is asked,
00:20:14.81\00:20:18.01
how could this happen.
00:20:18.05\00:20:19.38
How would you
allow this to happen?
00:20:19.41\00:20:20.75
Why would you even
let us have the child
00:20:20.78\00:20:22.28
if you're going
to taken from us now?
00:20:22.32\00:20:23.99
What is the
purpose of him being here?
00:20:24.02\00:20:25.72
Millions of hard
questions but still being a guy,
00:20:25.75\00:20:28.82
I bundled that all up and
didn't deal with it at all.
00:20:28.86\00:20:31.19
And so I decided
I would function.
00:20:31.23\00:20:33.76
I would function,
that I would go to work.
00:20:33.80\00:20:36.20
Yeah. I would go.
00:20:36.23\00:20:37.57
I would stop at the
groceries because my wife,
00:20:37.60\00:20:39.57
it was very
difficult for all of us.
00:20:39.60\00:20:41.37
She wasn't
functioning yet, so I decided,
00:20:41.40\00:20:44.04
it just came to me
00:20:44.07\00:20:45.41
that the only good
thing that I could do
00:20:45.44\00:20:47.04
out of all the hateful
reactions I could have,
00:20:47.08\00:20:49.58
the only good
thing that could be done
00:20:49.61\00:20:51.61
would be try to go to work.
00:20:51.65\00:20:53.45
Try to get the
money in the bank,
00:20:53.48\00:20:54.82
try to pay that bill.
00:20:54.85\00:20:56.18
Try to bring the groceries
home and I would cook dinner
00:20:56.22\00:20:59.82
and then we would
sit in the recliners.
00:20:59.85\00:21:02.82
Because in recliners
00:21:02.86\00:21:04.39
'cause it's
difficult sitting at a table
00:21:04.43\00:21:06.43
looking at each other.
00:21:06.46\00:21:07.80
Oh, yes, because
it's the one less child,
00:21:07.83\00:21:10.47
one less person at the table
00:21:10.50\00:21:11.93
and it kept us
from looking at that
00:21:11.97\00:21:14.07
and dealing with it.
00:21:14.10\00:21:15.44
We didn't go back to that table.
00:21:15.47\00:21:16.81
We didn't go back to that table.
00:21:16.84\00:21:18.84
And I guess the
reason I want to say
00:21:18.87\00:21:20.54
that is for
people they don't realize
00:21:20.58\00:21:22.18
that when you say
everything changes.
00:21:22.21\00:21:24.51
We can't even
have the meal together.
00:21:24.55\00:21:27.32
My friend set
the table for her son
00:21:27.35\00:21:30.59
for years after he
died and people said,
00:21:30.62\00:21:33.02
finally stopped
setting the table.
00:21:33.05\00:21:34.69
It's too painful
but everything changes.
00:21:34.72\00:21:36.69
So you're saying
we're in recliners,
00:21:36.73\00:21:38.29
were eating, you're functioning,
00:21:38.33\00:21:40.03
doing the right
thing, burying your anger.
00:21:40.06\00:21:42.83
That's what I was trying to
do, and when you say different,
00:21:42.86\00:21:44.93
I mean like we shop for
groceries in another town.
00:21:44.97\00:21:50.21
Because he would
ride with me on the thing,
00:21:50.24\00:21:52.07
you know in the cart,
and he would pick the things,
00:21:52.11\00:21:54.41
I have to go right by there
00:21:54.44\00:21:56.01
besides that
people are not kind,
00:21:56.04\00:21:58.18
your best friends
are not kind about this.
00:21:58.21\00:22:00.48
And so they will come up
00:22:00.52\00:22:01.85
and you're just
getting some oxygen,
00:22:01.88\00:22:05.12
you felt good
00:22:05.15\00:22:06.89
and this individual
from your church or something
00:22:06.92\00:22:09.92
will come by and
hand you something.
00:22:09.96\00:22:11.83
And it will just burn
you down for two weeks
00:22:11.86\00:22:14.20
and rather than take
the risk you leave town.
00:22:14.23\00:22:16.70
So we shopped and
did everything and...
00:22:16.73\00:22:18.70
Let me just say
that 'cause I don't know
00:22:18.73\00:22:20.57
if we know how
to speak to somebody
00:22:20.60\00:22:23.27
that's grieving at any level,
00:22:23.30\00:22:26.34
but definitely at this
level we don't know what to say.
00:22:26.37\00:22:29.38
So we'll tend to
cry to say something
00:22:29.41\00:22:32.58
but like you said,
00:22:32.61\00:22:33.95
if I'm breathing for
the first time in a year.
00:22:33.98\00:22:36.69
I can't have you crying
in front of me right now.
00:22:36.72\00:22:38.92
I can't have you
saying this right now
00:22:38.95\00:22:40.72
and not mean anybody's cruel.
00:22:40.76\00:22:42.72
It's like I promise
you I'm just breathing.
00:22:42.76\00:22:45.99
I'm just breathing.
00:22:46.03\00:22:47.36
And they don't mean. Yeah.
00:22:47.40\00:22:48.73
As matter of fact, they maybe
even thought 15, 20 minutes
00:22:48.76\00:22:51.10
because when they saw
you across a grocery store.
00:22:51.13\00:22:53.00
They may have
concocted this great thing
00:22:53.03\00:22:54.77
that they think
will really be great,
00:22:54.80\00:22:56.77
who best thing I heard.
00:22:56.81\00:23:00.01
Is what? Is nothing.
00:23:00.04\00:23:01.91
You can't say
anything to me right now.
00:23:01.94\00:23:04.65
Our physician came over
00:23:04.68\00:23:06.01
and would drag my
trash can to the street.
00:23:06.05\00:23:09.22
I watched them for months.
00:23:09.25\00:23:12.29
Never said a word.
00:23:12.32\00:23:13.92
Pulled up his car,
grab that trash can,
00:23:13.96\00:23:17.43
pulled it over the street.
00:23:17.46\00:23:20.43
That's good service.
00:23:20.46\00:23:22.16
I mean that's...
00:23:22.20\00:23:23.53
Yeah, and people that
would just hug me quick
00:23:23.57\00:23:25.97
and they're out the door.
00:23:26.00\00:23:27.34
Somebody dropped something off,
00:23:27.37\00:23:28.70
a lady came from
the barbecue place
00:23:28.74\00:23:30.11
that Ramsey liked
00:23:30.14\00:23:31.47
and she knocked on
the door and she comes...
00:23:31.51\00:23:34.84
That was, those were good.
00:23:34.88\00:23:36.61
I think that, I
think somewhere in there
00:23:36.64\00:23:38.21
is that they would
serve us a little bit
00:23:38.25\00:23:41.48
so that we would know
that they were there for us
00:23:41.52\00:23:44.25
but that they would
not project some thought
00:23:44.29\00:23:46.76
that they had to you
00:23:46.79\00:23:48.12
because there's no way
00:23:48.16\00:23:49.49
they could know what we were at
00:23:49.52\00:23:50.86
and they frequently
did it really clumsily,
00:23:50.89\00:23:52.99
sometimes really bad.
00:23:53.03\00:23:54.36
I mean I had a lady
at a Japanese restaurant
00:23:54.40\00:23:56.97
run from the store
from the restaurant crying.
00:23:57.00\00:24:01.30
And it was probably,
was it six months later?
00:24:01.34\00:24:03.14
Yeah, but she was going to,
00:24:03.17\00:24:05.71
she didn't realize
Ramsey had drowned,
00:24:05.74\00:24:07.78
so they're going
to get a high chair
00:24:07.81\00:24:10.85
and Ramsey is
drowned and they didn't know,
00:24:10.88\00:24:14.75
you know, and then
another time he's talking about
00:24:14.78\00:24:16.89
was the same restaurant where
they literally looked at us
00:24:16.92\00:24:20.96
and she took off running.
00:24:20.99\00:24:22.56
You know and then you
think I am so broken right now,
00:24:22.59\00:24:27.26
could you just hug me
without running from me.
00:24:27.30\00:24:29.43
I can see.
00:24:29.46\00:24:30.83
Yeah, I can't see your
reaction or your pain right now,
00:24:30.87\00:24:33.34
it doesn't help me.
00:24:33.37\00:24:34.70
That doesn't help. So, yeah.
00:24:34.74\00:24:36.50
So even being able to
say with both of you, Jay,
00:24:36.54\00:24:43.18
I am sorry that I feel like
00:24:43.21\00:24:45.18
I really wanted
to stay on these.
00:24:45.21\00:24:47.62
So for your anger and for your,
00:24:47.65\00:24:51.19
the way you functioned
was to try to over function
00:24:51.22\00:24:55.02
and not deal with anything
that you really feeling.
00:24:55.06\00:24:59.46
How long did it take
before you finally said
00:24:59.49\00:25:03.00
this is not working.
00:25:03.03\00:25:04.57
That's a five year thing. Okay.
00:25:04.60\00:25:06.23
That's a five
year thing at least.
00:25:06.27\00:25:10.87
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:10.91\00:25:12.24
I would...
00:25:12.27\00:25:14.78
For a while I worked in
a kind of an anger thing
00:25:14.81\00:25:16.95
despite you know that the world
00:25:16.98\00:25:19.25
and my God is you know...
00:25:19.28\00:25:22.98
injuring me or working against
00:25:23.02\00:25:24.99
what I and everyone
else could see is good,
00:25:25.02\00:25:27.46
I am going to prevail here
00:25:27.49\00:25:29.12
and you work
yourself out pretty good
00:25:29.16\00:25:31.06
because the
situation is not changing
00:25:31.09\00:25:34.90
and you will and I
worked myself down that way,
00:25:34.93\00:25:38.23
but I just try to
be extremely diligent,
00:25:38.27\00:25:40.07
do the best I
could for my family,
00:25:40.10\00:25:42.07
and do those physical
things, trying to function.
00:25:42.10\00:25:45.27
I'm going to tell you,
00:25:45.31\00:25:46.64
there's the way
that that worked out
00:25:46.68\00:25:48.34
that I was mad and functioning
and she was not functioning
00:25:48.38\00:25:52.18
and later become
and then she recovered
00:25:52.21\00:25:54.55
and then I entered a
place that was not as good.
00:25:54.58\00:25:58.62
I've to look God ordained,
you know where we didn't go,
00:25:58.65\00:26:03.89
we didn't become
nonfunctional at the same time
00:26:03.93\00:26:06.19
and we were
able to feed our kids
00:26:06.23\00:26:08.36
and show up at the right place
00:26:08.40\00:26:09.73
and pay our
bills and do our thing.
00:26:09.76\00:26:11.47
So it was dramatically different
00:26:11.50\00:26:13.74
and I didn't get to
any deep spiritual thought
00:26:13.77\00:26:16.24
till it was five
years down the road
00:26:16.27\00:26:18.24
and other than
just a bunch of anger.
00:26:18.27\00:26:20.68
So what, you know, and to me
00:26:20.71\00:26:23.28
and I know that you know
that's at a level that I don't,
00:26:23.31\00:26:26.48
but I doubt God
can handle all of that.
00:26:26.51\00:26:29.78
And where was
it when you guys...
00:26:29.82\00:26:32.79
You and God actually
started saying, I see you.
00:26:32.82\00:26:39.66
Had the thought one day
and it was while I was at work.
00:26:39.69\00:26:45.10
Yeah, don't want
to make this too bad
00:26:45.13\00:26:46.47
but I had an animal
that had passed away
00:26:46.50\00:26:48.94
and I was just sitting
there going on, this is,
00:26:48.97\00:26:50.57
I'm really down about
this in five years out
00:26:50.61\00:26:52.74
I'm going like,
but I know that...
00:26:52.77\00:26:57.18
that you were
powerful enough to move there
00:26:57.21\00:27:03.42
and that animal woke
up, when I thought that,
00:27:03.45\00:27:06.79
I had like this
really pure thought.
00:27:06.82\00:27:08.79
I don't think it had
anything to do with it
00:27:08.82\00:27:10.33
but my question was I know
because of how I understand
00:27:10.36\00:27:14.26
who you are that you
could have stopped change
00:27:14.30\00:27:16.46
or done something along the way
I think, I think I have that.
00:27:16.50\00:27:19.53
As a matter of fact right now
00:27:19.57\00:27:20.90
in this little
dingy surgery room
00:27:20.94\00:27:22.87
where I'm sitting on the stool.
00:27:22.90\00:27:24.24
I think you can
change something right now.
00:27:24.27\00:27:28.74
You can't kick back off.
It sounds like a miracle.
00:27:28.78\00:27:31.78
I'm not trying to
take it like that.
00:27:31.81\00:27:33.58
What I'm trying to take it was
he cracked the nut in my brain.
00:27:33.62\00:27:37.02
Yeah.
00:27:37.05\00:27:38.39
But that was
true, but that was true
00:27:38.42\00:27:40.86
that he is all
powerful and all knowing
00:27:40.89\00:27:42.59
he's omniscient in all
these things that I understand.
00:27:42.62\00:27:45.19
And the last thing
that came to me was
00:27:45.23\00:27:48.06
because of that was, he
is not hurt by my questions.
00:27:48.10\00:27:52.03
He is got the answers. Yes.
00:27:52.07\00:27:54.67
Amen. So it
ceased to be adversarial.
00:27:54.70\00:28:00.18
And that's when I
started to turn the corner.
00:28:00.21\00:28:02.28
Just when I realized
he was not out for my bad,
00:28:02.31\00:28:06.05
but had actual...
00:28:06.08\00:28:07.42
This is not punishment.
00:28:07.45\00:28:08.78
That's right, and there
were answers to the questions
00:28:08.82\00:28:11.39
that I had,
00:28:11.42\00:28:12.75
and he's not insulted by me
or the fact that I would ask.
00:28:12.79\00:28:16.42
That's incredible.
00:28:16.46\00:28:17.79
And it's so incredible
for both of you now saying
00:28:17.83\00:28:21.66
that you know the enemy
would do anything to say,
00:28:21.70\00:28:24.57
you know what, You
just like what just happen,
00:28:24.60\00:28:27.70
you know, just kill yourself,
just give up, just stop.
00:28:27.74\00:28:31.11
And God saying don't stop. Yes.
00:28:31.14\00:28:34.48
I never intended this
ever you like you said Angelia,
00:28:34.51\00:28:38.51
you know we were not meant
to bury people who we love,
00:28:38.55\00:28:41.45
we were not meant to experience
loss and pain and dysfunction
00:28:41.48\00:28:45.92
and all that kind of stuff.
00:28:45.95\00:28:47.29
So now you're back
into a relationship
00:28:47.32\00:28:49.69
where God is just saying,
00:28:49.72\00:28:51.36
can I breathe
life back into you?
00:28:51.39\00:28:54.53
Yes.
00:28:54.56\00:28:55.90
Because right now
you can't muster it up,
00:28:55.93\00:28:57.27
you're on your own.
00:28:57.30\00:28:58.63
That's right.
00:28:58.67\00:29:00.00
I like to breathe
this back into you.
00:29:00.04\00:29:01.37
So as you guys
start to stand up,
00:29:01.40\00:29:03.07
what does that
look like in your home?
00:29:03.10\00:29:06.11
You know the first
thing that happened
00:29:06.14\00:29:07.81
was we were just
several months in
00:29:07.84\00:29:11.18
and we sold our home.
00:29:11.21\00:29:12.75
Well we didn't sell it,
we moved into an apartment.
00:29:12.78\00:29:15.82
And is that to just get everyone
00:29:15.85\00:29:18.92
out of all of that familiar.
00:29:18.95\00:29:20.66
No, it was actually about
our oldest son playing baseball
00:29:20.69\00:29:24.23
in a different
school and it was a high,
00:29:24.26\00:29:26.06
you know academically it
was the best place for him
00:29:26.09\00:29:29.00
and he played baseball
and everything was better
00:29:29.03\00:29:31.53
and so in order for us
to move for him to play,
00:29:31.57\00:29:35.07
it required us to move
into that particular district.
00:29:35.10\00:29:38.47
So we had an apartment.
00:29:38.51\00:29:40.98
So we didn't sell the house
yet but we had an apartment
00:29:41.01\00:29:43.95
and so we're
sitting in this tiny...
00:29:43.98\00:29:46.11
We had a lovely home.
00:29:46.15\00:29:47.48
We're sitting in this
tiny two bedroom apartment.
00:29:47.52\00:29:51.02
We're squeezed
in there like this
00:29:51.05\00:29:53.09
and I remember I
was in the kitchen
00:29:53.12\00:29:57.06
and you know
little tiny apartment,
00:29:57.09\00:29:58.63
you can see
everybody all the time.
00:29:58.66\00:30:00.60
So I remember I
was in the kitchen,
00:30:00.63\00:30:02.80
I was making
popcorn or something.
00:30:02.83\00:30:04.43
We were going to watch a movie
00:30:04.47\00:30:05.80
and I heard for the first
time in seven or eight months.
00:30:05.83\00:30:11.17
I heard my family laugh.
00:30:11.21\00:30:14.31
I heard them laughing
over a funny show on TV,
00:30:14.34\00:30:19.11
a cartoon or something.
00:30:19.15\00:30:20.65
And I just began to
weep because I was not sure
00:30:20.68\00:30:24.25
I would ever hear
my family laugh again,
00:30:24.29\00:30:27.56
could we and were we allowed.
00:30:27.59\00:30:29.89
I remember
laughing and thinking oh...
00:30:29.92\00:30:33.09
Sort of guilt.
00:30:33.13\00:30:34.46
Yes, drawing myself back in,
00:30:34.50\00:30:35.83
I buried my son eight months ago
00:30:35.86\00:30:38.13
and I don't think,
00:30:38.17\00:30:39.50
I think people will
get the wrong impression.
00:30:39.53\00:30:42.20
And I was just trying to
heal but I had guilt over my joy
00:30:42.24\00:30:47.78
and he was just
speaking life into my spirit.
00:30:47.81\00:30:51.11
You know, and so when
I heard them laughing,
00:30:51.15\00:30:53.72
I remember thinking,
we are going to make it.
00:30:53.75\00:30:57.72
We're going to make it. I
know we're going to make it.
00:30:57.75\00:31:01.26
I can't even...
00:31:01.29\00:31:02.62
I can't even...
00:31:02.66\00:31:04.53
You want to stay on that moment,
00:31:04.56\00:31:06.46
that it's such an
incredible thing for folks
00:31:06.49\00:31:08.63
that are struggling with
anything especially grief
00:31:08.66\00:31:11.87
is that there is a
moment, hang in there,
00:31:11.90\00:31:15.54
that you will get to the point
where you are going to make it.
00:31:15.57\00:31:19.04
We're going to be
okay. Yes, you know.
00:31:19.07\00:31:20.51
Not okay, not the saying.
00:31:20.54\00:31:22.64
No, not, you go
into a different place,
00:31:22.68\00:31:24.18
but you think it's a okay place.
00:31:24.21\00:31:26.21
You're headed somewhere better.
00:31:26.25\00:31:27.95
You're headed there.
00:31:27.98\00:31:29.32
And so, Jay, I'd
like to stay there
00:31:29.35\00:31:31.72
heading somewhere better,
and I'm not saying better
00:31:31.75\00:31:36.46
because Ramsey is not there
00:31:36.49\00:31:37.96
but better in the sense of...
00:31:37.99\00:31:42.06
When we start to understand
the depth of who we are,
00:31:42.10\00:31:46.27
or the depth of who God
is what this world really is
00:31:46.30\00:31:49.80
outside of our pollyannaish
view on Christianity
00:31:49.84\00:31:53.14
and I hate to say that because
I don't mean that as a slam.
00:31:53.17\00:31:55.84
But we do have like
you said to me one time
00:31:55.88\00:31:58.75
you know is that
we think if we do this
00:31:58.78\00:32:01.45
and we have this in
order and we have this,
00:32:01.48\00:32:03.75
when we go to church
and we do our devotions
00:32:03.79\00:32:06.15
that we will not be
touched by any of the sin.
00:32:06.19\00:32:08.92
That's right.
00:32:08.96\00:32:10.29
When we realize that that was
a lie from the enemy himself.
00:32:10.33\00:32:13.13
That's right.
00:32:13.16\00:32:14.50
The people, everybody,
00:32:14.53\00:32:15.86
everybody that
hears us speak today
00:32:15.90\00:32:17.23
will be thinking
that won't happen.
00:32:17.27\00:32:19.53
This couldn't
happen that this tragedy
00:32:19.57\00:32:21.80
that I heard
about won't happen to us
00:32:21.84\00:32:23.37
because and we'll
have a flimsy reason,
00:32:23.41\00:32:25.37
I stop at every stop sign.
00:32:25.41\00:32:26.84
I would never let my
son drive to the prom alone,
00:32:26.88\00:32:29.54
whatever it is that
got them to that place
00:32:29.58\00:32:31.81
they will protect
them self a little bit.
00:32:31.85\00:32:33.75
I think that's
kind of a normal thing,
00:32:33.78\00:32:37.12
but it's false and it doesn't,
00:32:37.15\00:32:40.79
there's no protection
to be had in those things
00:32:40.82\00:32:44.03
and you know
00:32:44.06\00:32:45.43
when I hand that piece
of information to somebody,
00:32:45.46\00:32:48.13
I also hand out the other
things that you heard me say,
00:32:48.16\00:32:50.73
but this won't happen
to you because it's...
00:32:50.77\00:32:55.40
What happens it happens,
00:32:55.44\00:32:56.77
and that's the truth
about your new reality.
00:32:56.81\00:32:58.74
This thing has happened
00:32:58.77\00:33:00.11
and you're not going
to unmake that happen
00:33:00.14\00:33:01.48
but you can, you
can find to be a way
00:33:01.51\00:33:04.01
to be well in a different way.
00:33:04.05\00:33:05.75
You know, you'll be,
you won't be the same.
00:33:05.78\00:33:07.62
And the other thing
is you meet some people
00:33:07.65\00:33:10.55
that it just happened to him.
00:33:10.59\00:33:11.92
This happened with Angelia a
lot from about a year out on,
00:33:11.95\00:33:15.32
I don't think in our community
00:33:15.36\00:33:16.69
there's anybody
that had a tragedy
00:33:16.73\00:33:20.13
of some sort they
didn't seek us out.
00:33:20.16\00:33:22.53
I really felt funny
first because when I would go,
00:33:22.56\00:33:24.83
if I went and they saw me
00:33:24.87\00:33:26.20
especially if
they're at the hospital.
00:33:26.23\00:33:27.67
You know I might be
the harboring a bad news
00:33:27.70\00:33:29.54
because it didn't
turn out well for me
00:33:29.57\00:33:32.61
but I soon gave that up
00:33:32.64\00:33:33.98
because those
people were seeking us out.
00:33:34.01\00:33:35.64
And then we got a
chance to speak with somebody
00:33:35.68\00:33:37.28
who was in a place
where we were, and that...
00:33:37.31\00:33:39.28
Just buried a child.
00:33:39.31\00:33:40.65
Just buried a child
00:33:40.68\00:33:42.02
or is in the
throes of the battle
00:33:42.05\00:33:43.39
of how that's going.
00:33:43.42\00:33:44.75
They might be
okay, they might not
00:33:44.79\00:33:46.12
but having
someone like us to talk to
00:33:46.15\00:33:48.79
suddenly became a role for us.
00:33:48.82\00:33:51.16
We really kind of
embraced that and that helped,
00:33:51.19\00:33:54.50
that helped.
00:33:54.53\00:33:55.86
So how did that helped?
00:33:55.90\00:33:58.30
It's a commonality, you
know, you want to help somebody
00:33:58.33\00:34:02.70
and then suddenly something
00:34:02.74\00:34:04.07
that you really have
experienced deeply matters.
00:34:04.11\00:34:06.98
It didn't matter
to anybody else before
00:34:07.01\00:34:08.71
but suddenly it does...
00:34:08.74\00:34:11.08
It's a scab over a
big one, it really is.
00:34:11.11\00:34:14.45
I think for me it
was not only somebody
00:34:14.48\00:34:18.55
wanting to know
how I survived it.
00:34:18.59\00:34:21.72
When sometimes I was
questioning am I surviving
00:34:21.76\00:34:25.06
but someone saw
that I was surviving,
00:34:25.09\00:34:28.30
and I think that was
because I was still breathing.
00:34:28.33\00:34:30.30
Right. You know.
00:34:30.33\00:34:31.70
And so I would hear
myself tell someone else,
00:34:31.73\00:34:35.90
do this, it's okay
not to get up till noon
00:34:35.94\00:34:39.44
and I would hear myself.
00:34:39.47\00:34:41.04
And I would go. I
really am going to make it.
00:34:41.08\00:34:44.28
Amen. I'm going to make that.
00:34:44.31\00:34:46.41
And so it's just
giving someone else
00:34:46.45\00:34:48.25
a little bit of hope.
00:34:48.28\00:34:49.62
And it sounds like
and just hearing yourself
00:34:49.65\00:34:52.29
over and over and
over, reminding yourself
00:34:52.32\00:34:56.19
almost to do the right
thing, to do the next thing
00:34:56.22\00:34:59.09
and I, excuse me
I want to apologize
00:34:59.13\00:35:00.86
for saying right
thing to do the next thing,
00:35:00.90\00:35:03.40
because I really
want to be sensitive
00:35:03.43\00:35:05.33
and there's no right or
wrong thing in right now.
00:35:05.37\00:35:07.50
You know we want to
label it and there is not,
00:35:07.54\00:35:09.54
it's the next
thing, the next step.
00:35:09.57\00:35:12.11
You know we have
talked about a lot of things
00:35:12.14\00:35:15.48
on this program.
00:35:15.51\00:35:17.25
I'm thinking about your two sons
00:35:17.28\00:35:20.22
because the only
image I have the last image
00:35:20.25\00:35:22.35
is one's up on the
porch wringing his hands
00:35:22.38\00:35:24.35
and the other one
is holding this baby.
00:35:24.39\00:35:26.35
So what about
them, where they are?
00:35:26.39\00:35:29.69
Well, I'll talk, I'll let
you talk about our youngest son,
00:35:29.72\00:35:31.43
I'll talk about older son, okay.
00:35:31.46\00:35:32.83
My son Benjamin as a minor
league baseball player now.
00:35:32.86\00:35:35.66
No way.
00:35:35.70\00:35:37.70
The party was a baseball
party where he got sick.
00:35:37.73\00:35:41.20
And he still plays today
and plays internationally,
00:35:41.24\00:35:45.77
started off maybe in Munich,
played a Bern, Switzerland.
00:35:45.81\00:35:49.28
Today he's in South Africa.
00:35:49.31\00:35:51.41
He plays associated
baseball in Fargo, North Dakota
00:35:51.45\00:35:56.99
during the regular season
00:35:57.02\00:35:58.35
so he's what
they're presently today.
00:35:58.39\00:36:00.22
He's below the equator playing
00:36:00.26\00:36:01.76
what they would call winter ball
00:36:01.79\00:36:03.26
and getting prepared for him
00:36:03.29\00:36:05.09
to continue his career up there,
00:36:05.13\00:36:06.76
you know it's called
the Fargo Morehead Red Hawks
00:36:06.80\00:36:09.03
is the team he has
contract with presently.
00:36:09.06\00:36:11.67
I could just see you at a game
just screaming your head off,
00:36:11.70\00:36:14.90
I bet it has
been fun. Oh, my gosh.
00:36:14.94\00:36:17.81
Listen I need my
Christian friends to ignore me
00:36:17.84\00:36:19.67
when we're talking about umpire,
00:36:19.71\00:36:21.44
we'll just talk
about that later.
00:36:21.48\00:36:23.01
So your other son?
00:36:23.04\00:36:24.55
Yes, the other son
Chandler, the middle son.
00:36:24.58\00:36:26.88
He just finished an
internship in New York
00:36:26.92\00:36:30.29
with the United Nations
permanent mission to Israel
00:36:30.32\00:36:34.89
and he is all about it.
00:36:34.92\00:36:37.86
He's all about it, he
just graduated from college
00:36:37.89\00:36:40.16
with two degrees, honors in both
00:36:40.20\00:36:43.30
and he's looking
for an opportunity
00:36:43.33\00:36:46.53
to get back in the embassy.
00:36:46.57\00:36:47.90
So I don't want to say goodbye
yet, I want to take a break,
00:36:47.94\00:36:50.34
I want to come
back for the close,
00:36:50.37\00:36:51.71
I want you to
say a little bit more
00:36:51.74\00:36:53.68
about the kids and then talk to,
00:36:53.71\00:36:57.05
talk to our audience.
00:36:57.08\00:36:58.41
So we'll be right
back. Stay with us.
00:36:58.45\00:37:00.35