The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to addictive behavior.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to "Celebrating
the Life in Recovery."
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I'm Cheri, your host.
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And I'd like you to come in
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and meet a couple
of friends of mine
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that have come up from the hood
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and are now
reaching into the lives
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of their community
and changing everything.
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Welcome back.
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You know, this
season we're looking at
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all of the things that
God does along our journey.
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In recovery, there's a
stage called maintenance
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like after we get off
of drugs, get off alcohol,
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get off all that kind of stuff.
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And He repairs our
liver, our minds, our body,
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our characters
and all of that junk.
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And I'm so proud of
God when He does that.
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Right now, I wanna go
jump right into the interview
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because I have
a couple of people
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I want you to meet.
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And I think it's
gonna take a while
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to kind of flush out the story
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and where God is
brought you from and led you to.
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And, Jasahn, I
first want to say,
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man, it is good to
have you on the program.
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Twin brother, Han,
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it's good to have
you on the program
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and we've seen you before.
Yes. You've been here before.
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And so I'm gonna ask you to
tell us about your ministry,
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but before we get there
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who are you and
where did you come from?
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Well, I'm the third son of
a single mother in Detroit,
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a twin brother and uncle.
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Twin brother older or younger?
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I'm the youngest. Yeah.
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And you're three
minutes older, right?
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Yes, three whole minutes.
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I love that
'cause when I asked you
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that before it's like no, no,
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I'm older by three
minutes. Three whole minutes.
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There he got me. Yeah.
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And I met you guys in Detroit.
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So you're from
Detroit originally,
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single mom, mom
raised you. She did. Yeah.
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Tried the best she could
without the help of our father.
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Where was your dad?
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I don't know if I ever got
that. Yeah, he's still around.
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You know, he's not around us.
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But not involved in
your life at all growing up.
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Somewhat, from what I understand
he used to send checks.
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I think once a month
to help with the rent
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and whenever he felt like
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making more kids
he comes to my mother.
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And you know she loved this guy.
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He is the only guy
that she ever loved.
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He just, you know,
he never married her.
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And so now-- so with
all of that going on,
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you jumped into a
kind of crazy lifestyle,
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pretty young? Yeah, we did.
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And I think that
probably it wasn't crazy to us.
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Probably the
craziest thing that we did,
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pretty young we
still, we in high school.
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Before that we sold
candy and cool eggs.
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The cool egg
mixed in with the sugar.
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And, you know, just to bring
in an extra couple of bucks.
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You know, so we
understood early on,
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since we didn't have a lot,
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the smart thing was to try
to be entrepreneurial and so--
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But it started out with candy,
cool egg that kind of stuff.
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Yeah, started on, you
know, we go to the gas station
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or the penny store before school
get some blow pops for 10 cents.
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Get to school sell
them for 50 cents a piece.
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You know, all in a book bag
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pull it out in
class and try to hurry up
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and get all the money
before the teachers came in
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and caught or whatever.
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So you were
businessman, really early.
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I always see it
the way was easy.
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You know, it's just a
matter of meeting the demand,
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they wanted the candy and they
pay for it, that's all. Yeah.
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Yeah, we had it. That is funny.
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They could have got
it, but they didn't.
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So we bought it in. Did you?
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Where did you learn now--
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was it just stuff that
people in the neighborhood?
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I mean it was like
everybody was kind of--
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I mean where
would you learn that?
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My mother was kind of a genius.
You know, in a simple way. Yeah.
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She would say sell candy.
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And we would think
that would never work.
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They can go to the gas station
to get candy for a dime. Yeah.
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But they didn't and so we would
get the blow pop for a dime.
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We had the-- I guess
the way we thought it up,
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to pack it in our
book bags and, you know,
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sell it before class. Yeah.
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For 50 cents a pop, it worked,
you know, it wasn't hard at all.
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You just had to-- I
guess be brave enough
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to be able to take
that risk and do it.
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You know, so the same skill
and where we thought transferred
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over into drugs when
we entered into that.
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Into high school.
Yeah in that industry.
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And so what was high
school like and what?
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You know, 'cause, you know,
hearing your stories before
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'cause we met in Detroit is that
you were in some scary stuff.
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Well, remember the first day
in high school. I remember that.
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I remember the first day in
high school 'cause my mother,
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you know, like he said,
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you know, she did
the best she could.
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So we couldn't go to the
neighborhood high school,
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so she sent us to a
far off high school.
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It's was just as bad though.
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It's was just bad, but no,
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I won't even say it was
just as bad because you feel.
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You tend to
feel more comfortable
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in your neighborhood. Yeah.
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You feel little
bit more relaxed. Yeah.
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So I guess she knew that
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so she sent us to
another public school,
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it was Murray-Wright.
Instead of Mackenzie.
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And it was a
little farther away from,
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you know, the
neighborhood school.
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And I remember the first
day I was getting off that bus.
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And I remember Jase telling me,
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he was like, he looked
at me with a serious face
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and said Han,
its going to be hard.
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And I'm thinking like.
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I didn't look at it like that,
you know, we're in ninth grade,
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it's just going to be whole lot.
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It's going to be a
whole lot of us so.
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You were scared?
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Yeah, I was scared,
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but I knew it was a
lot-- when I was scared.
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So this is-- And you were 13?
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Right. Everybody looks like 17.
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And I don't know anybody
and people have kind of hung out
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with each other and
they know each other. Yeah.
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And I'm taking a bus and jumping
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into your guy's territory. Yes.
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But you know, can
you explain that to us?
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Because I know I've
talked about that on the program
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before is that in some places
territory is a big deal. Yeah.
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Territory is everything.
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You know, especially, you
know, when you're in a city
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or in an environment
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where nobody has anything.
You don't own anything.
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You don't own the
house you grew up in.
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and so people
still take ownership.
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And it's everything,
you know, this is ours,
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what you are doing
here? This is my block.
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As you're
walking down the street.
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This is my block.
This is my street.
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Yeah this is my girls--you know,
this is my school. And so--
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So now mom is trying to
get you not to where you guys
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are going to jump into
all kinds of bad stuff.
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She said maybe if I send
them to a different school,
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it would be better.
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I think the problem and the
reason was that the reputation
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of our
neighborhood school McKenzie,
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you know, it was
always horror stories
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about bodies
floating in the pools.
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And people being
killed and so she just,
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you know, I
think she just thought
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that Mackenzie
was altogether worse.
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I don't even know that.
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You know, my
brother suggested it,
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maybe taken us out of
our element will make it
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a little more hopeful for
us. And there are some people--
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But I don't know
if that was the case.
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In environment, will say
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what are they
talking about at high school.
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But I've seen high
school with razor wire
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around the school so that
you can't get in or get out.
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The fencing is barred up. Yeah.
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Or you go through
metal detectors to come in.i
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Police department is
inside the high school, yeah.
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So you're not
bringing guns or knives.
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We took them in
anyway. Yeah. Yeah.
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But I mean you
have all that stuff.
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It is a war zone sometimes
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and I think that
unless you've seen it.
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It's kind of
mind-boggling. Yeah.
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And so you're now 13
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stepping into a
whole another thing
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and saying, I love that.
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It's you know,
it's gonna be tough.
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It's going to be hard.
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He tells me about that story,
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you know, even today. So now--
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Now we're meeting on
T.V. So how did you do?
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Like you get in
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and you have to
kind of make your place.
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Yeah, so I think that we found
really quickly he was right,
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that there were
more people like us
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young people who were
also afraid and so we had.
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We got comfortable pretty quick.
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We got pretty popular with
the other guys pretty quick.
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Probably because we
were twins and that's novel.
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But also because
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much when he is my
older brother as well.
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He's kind of a man's man
and so he attracted guys.
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It was more that
provide all that sense of--
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he carried it. Yeah. And so.
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When I first met
him he carried it. Yeah.
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It's just so, you know,
I could see you even at 13,
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just be going like,
okay, we're just doing,
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what we got to do. Yeah.
We're gonna be all right.
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And we earned a reputation
pretty quick through violence.
00:08:25.40\00:08:28.97
It was just
random acts of violence.
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So when you talk about violence,
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what does it that look
like? What do you mean?
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So you know, we
are 13 or 14 years old
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and he tried public schools.
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They had a system
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and this has been
decades going out,
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but they pass out
this bus passes I'm sure.
00:08:41.40\00:08:43.84
They do that everywhere.
00:08:43.87\00:08:46.25
And so it would cost you
$5 to begin at a school year
00:08:46.28\00:08:49.32
or maybe they
give to you for free,
00:08:49.35\00:08:50.72
but if you lost
it, you have to pay $5.
00:08:50.75\00:08:52.22
But who had $5 and so
we lose them all the time
00:08:52.25\00:08:54.80
and so, you know,
every time one of us
00:08:54.83\00:08:56.75
somebody although
click lost a bus pass,
00:08:56.78\00:08:59.06
you know, who was
the lucky candidate
00:08:59.09\00:09:01.02
to turning his buss
pass to one of us and so.
00:09:01.05\00:09:03.75
So you would literally
say give me yours. Yeah.
00:09:03.78\00:09:06.42
And so or, you know,
find some other excuse to--
00:09:06.45\00:09:08.69
Yeah, give us the pass.
00:09:08.72\00:09:10.09
He would say no
and so we beat them up.
00:09:10.12\00:09:13.13
Or may be
everybody had a bus pass,
00:09:13.16\00:09:15.12
but maybe he was bored
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and you know,
wanted to pick a fight
00:09:17.44\00:09:19.10
and so he would often times
00:09:19.13\00:09:21.38
and the rest of
us would jump in.
00:09:21.41\00:09:23.38
Just jump in and so being able
to say is that from early on,
00:09:23.41\00:09:28.17
it's like you
established yourself. Yeah.
00:09:28.20\00:09:30.72
You were established.
00:09:30.75\00:09:32.12
Did you ever jump in
like when people say gangs
00:09:32.15\00:09:34.24
and all that kind of stuff?
00:09:34.27\00:09:35.64
Did you ever jump
in to an actual gang?
00:09:35.67\00:09:37.44
Kind of, yes and no.
00:09:37.47\00:09:38.84
We were affiliated and I could--
I remember how it happened.
00:09:38.87\00:09:41.37
We would ride home from school
00:09:41.40\00:09:43.60
from Murray-Wright
back into our neighborhood.
00:09:43.63\00:09:45.51
The Grand River bus
and we were with a friend.
00:09:45.54\00:09:48.45
I remember, his name was
Marcus, you remember, Marcus?
00:09:48.48\00:09:50.41
He had a brown kangol. I
know everything about gangs.
00:09:50.44\00:09:53.33
And he was wearing
his hat to the right.
00:09:53.36\00:09:55.25
And I saw
something we were waiting on,
00:09:55.28\00:09:58.35
we were transferring buses.
00:09:58.38\00:10:00.02
And we were waiting
on the next bus to come.
00:10:00.05\00:10:01.89
And we were sitting and we saw
some guys, about 8 or 12 guys.
00:10:01.92\00:10:05.86
And one of them, we had
gone to middle school with,
00:10:05.89\00:10:08.86
but he was different. You know,
people change in a year or two.
00:10:08.89\00:10:11.80
And you know, he
looked different.
00:10:11.83\00:10:13.20
He dressed different.
His demeanor was different.
00:10:13.23\00:10:14.60
He was walking
with this group of guys
00:10:14.63\00:10:16.97
and they walked by us
and we kind of nodded,
00:10:17.00\00:10:19.08
nodded back and then
they kind of lingered.
00:10:19.11\00:10:21.36
You know, down a block or
so and then they came back.
00:10:21.39\00:10:23.98
And they would maybe
seem to be deliberate and then
00:10:24.01\00:10:26.66
out of nowhere they
jumped the guy we were with.
00:10:26.69\00:10:29.32
And so you know, out of
instinct we jumped in his way.
00:10:29.35\00:10:31.96
You know, what's going on,
00:10:31.99\00:10:33.36
but so we are having
this fight with these guys.
00:10:33.39\00:10:35.82
And one of them shouted out
00:10:35.85\00:10:38.78
"bend the hat to
the left, next time."
00:10:38.81\00:10:40.88
and what is that like.
00:10:40.91\00:10:42.91
I didn't even
know what that means.
00:10:42.94\00:10:44.31
Right, so we
researched it. And so--Yeah.
00:10:44.34\00:10:45.95
Started you know, automatically
after that anything
00:10:45.98\00:10:47.96
that had anything to do
with bring your hat to the left.
00:10:47.99\00:10:50.16
You know, that
was my sworn enemy
00:10:50.19\00:10:52.24
and so, you know, as I
learned more about gangs,
00:10:52.27\00:10:54.30
we became more affiliated with.
00:10:54.33\00:10:56.24
'Cause, well, a lot
things The opposite today.
00:10:56.27\00:10:58.39
A lot of things mean something.
00:10:58.42\00:11:00.05
You know, how you wear your hat?
00:11:00.08\00:11:01.45
What color you put on? Yeah.
00:11:01.48\00:11:02.90
All that kind of
stuff there is a lot of--
00:11:02.93\00:11:04.67
So it was Vice Lords.
What we learned later on.
00:11:04.70\00:11:06.96
And so on we became you know,
00:11:06.99\00:11:08.37
more connected to
gangs to disciples of folks
00:11:08.40\00:11:11.58
and it's just by default
that experience on Grand River,
00:11:11.61\00:11:16.73
that afternoon so--
00:11:16.76\00:11:18.66
And so how did
your life go from there?
00:11:18.69\00:11:20.42
'Cause I, you know,
I've heard like Han,
00:11:20.45\00:11:23.05
I've heard your story,
cause you were on last week.
00:11:23.08\00:11:25.41
And I heard you talk about,
00:11:25.44\00:11:26.85
you know, you really
kind of became that guy
00:11:26.88\00:11:29.46
and started
dealing in all that stuff.
00:11:29.49\00:11:31.75
Did you follow in his footsteps,
00:11:31.78\00:11:33.40
did you--were you guys
kind of always together?
00:11:33.43\00:11:36.87
No, actually, no, we weren't.
I mean we're always together,
00:11:36.90\00:11:40.67
but we weren't
always into the same stuff.
00:11:40.70\00:11:43.09
He was kind of a--
he was more of an Esau
00:11:43.12\00:11:45.83
and I was kind of a Jacob
00:11:45.86\00:11:47.32
and so, you know I was
more quiet to myself, reserved.
00:11:47.35\00:11:49.68
But, you know, struggled to
keep up with what he was into.
00:11:49.71\00:11:52.71
You know, when he
was climbing trees
00:11:52.74\00:11:54.11
I was afraid of heights.
00:11:54.14\00:11:55.51
When he was
wrestling I don't want to be
00:11:55.54\00:11:56.91
put in hair
lock, claustrophobic.
00:11:56.94\00:11:58.31
And you know, when he
was playing basketball
00:11:58.34\00:11:59.85
I somehow missed that gene.
00:11:59.88\00:12:01.25
You know, I would hangout
with the girls down the street.
00:12:01.28\00:12:02.65
So um, but at the same time
00:12:02.68\00:12:04.33
we still in the
neighborhood full of guys
00:12:04.36\00:12:06.03
and so he had to figure out
how to make that work for me.
00:12:06.06\00:12:09.62
And so I did.
00:12:09.65\00:12:12.33
You did and so
you jump into gangs.
00:12:12.36\00:12:16.75
You start doing all
that kind of stuff dealing,
00:12:16.78\00:12:18.87
you're doing some of that.
00:12:18.90\00:12:21.12
And I asked that when
Han was on the program
00:12:21.15\00:12:24.96
I asked, you know, was
there any spiritual leading.
00:12:24.99\00:12:27.61
Did you feel like at
all that during that time
00:12:27.64\00:12:30.05
that God was involved in anyway?
00:12:30.08\00:12:32.08
With him, no I
don't think, right.
00:12:32.11\00:12:34.23
You didn't know God
at all. All my life.
00:12:34.26\00:12:36.67
You know, all my life I
felt a call on my life ah--
00:12:36.70\00:12:40.03
you know, my mother
would-- it was four boys.
00:12:40.06\00:12:44.40
That's why it's working for.
00:12:44.43\00:12:46.27
And she would read us to,
00:12:46.30\00:12:47.67
you know, the
Bible stories to us.
00:12:47.70\00:12:49.77
And it always resonated with me.
00:12:49.80\00:12:51.82
But I did, you
know, I don't know
00:12:51.85\00:12:53.22
how to hit with
my older brothers.
00:12:53.25\00:12:54.62
But you know,
so that's something
00:12:54.65\00:12:56.42
that I
struggled with as we began
00:12:56.45\00:12:58.47
to more fit to
something different. Right.
00:12:58.50\00:13:00.83
You know, this struggle between
00:13:00.86\00:13:02.94
you know, what
I felt I was to be
00:13:02.97\00:13:04.81
and you know, what I
felt I needed to become
00:13:04.84\00:13:07.23
in order to keep
up with where I was.
00:13:07.26\00:13:09.01
Exactly in the
neighborhood. Right.
00:13:09.04\00:13:11.54
So your mom died young? She did.
00:13:11.57\00:13:15.19
Talk about that. I
wasn't there. Where were you?
00:13:15.22\00:13:20.09
Ah, so I got in
trouble early on.
00:13:20.12\00:13:23.88
So go figure he was in
my mind he was the bad guy.
00:13:23.91\00:13:27.83
But I was the
one always in trouble
00:13:27.86\00:13:29.23
and so I have
been with some guys
00:13:29.26\00:13:32.88
and we-- it was
an early dismissal.
00:13:32.91\00:13:35.24
I'd already been kicked out
of the original high school.
00:13:35.27\00:13:38.08
And I had to go
to the alternative--
00:13:38.11\00:13:39.92
Because of the violence?
00:13:39.95\00:13:41.32
Because of
violence and a lot of stuff,
00:13:41.35\00:13:42.72
some of stuff I
hadn't even been guilty of.
00:13:42.75\00:13:44.54
I didn't even know
what the true stories were,
00:13:44.57\00:13:46.58
but, you know, I
got suspended a lot.
00:13:46.61\00:13:47.98
We both did.
00:13:48.01\00:13:49.38
And at the end of the year,
00:13:49.41\00:13:50.78
I remember being expelled
from all Detroit public schools.
00:13:50.81\00:13:52.67
And we have to go
through a process to get me
00:13:52.70\00:13:55.42
and put in the military academy.
00:13:55.45\00:13:56.92
Say that again all
Detroit public schools.
00:13:56.95\00:13:58.99
Yeah, we are
talking dozens of schools.
00:13:59.02\00:14:00.39
So I can't go to any of them.
00:14:00.42\00:14:01.85
Yeah, and in Detroit
what's really funny is
00:14:01.88\00:14:04.18
when you say that I'm thinking
00:14:04.21\00:14:05.58
there's some hard
core folks in there. Yeah.
00:14:05.61\00:14:07.28
And yet they are saying to you
00:14:07.31\00:14:08.96
we don't want you
coming back. Right.
00:14:08.99\00:14:10.84
You know, you're selling
drugs. You're beating people up.
00:14:10.87\00:14:13.21
You're always in trouble
and we want you gone. Okay.
00:14:13.24\00:14:16.43
It was like the
last week of school,
00:14:16.46\00:14:18.18
maybe the last day.
00:14:18.21\00:14:19.58
And they found some
weapons in my locker that are,
00:14:19.61\00:14:21.67
you know, they've
been all school year.
00:14:21.70\00:14:23.13
And I whispered to a guy,
00:14:23.16\00:14:25.39
one of the guys we
hung with and told him.
00:14:25.42\00:14:27.06
I gave him my combination
and told him go get the
00:14:27.09\00:14:29.73
weapons out of my locker. I
don't want them to leave them.
00:14:29.76\00:14:31.58
And the security
guards watching us
00:14:31.61\00:14:34.22
and so he follows into my
locker and when he opens it up
00:14:34.25\00:14:36.57
and takes the weapons out.
00:14:36.60\00:14:37.97
He follows us back and
he takes us and you know,
00:14:38.00\00:14:39.80
they put us in
custody. Can you share with us?
00:14:39.83\00:14:42.52
Cause I know that
we're gonna talk about
00:14:42.55\00:14:44.90
who you are in ministry,
but can you share with us
00:14:44.93\00:14:48.82
what that's like to
take weapons to school.
00:14:48.85\00:14:51.62
The other kids know
that you have weapons.
00:14:51.65\00:14:53.81
And so, you know,
00:14:53.84\00:14:55.21
can you share what does
that feel like? 'Cause--
00:14:55.24\00:14:58.15
Normal, you know,
everybody has got weapons.
00:14:58.18\00:14:59.82
And so you need
to have some weapons,
00:14:59.85\00:15:01.63
'cause everybody
has got them. Right.
00:15:01.66\00:15:03.03
And so you
quickly pick up a habit.
00:15:03.06\00:15:06.20
You know, it doesn't feel
right not to have weapons.
00:15:06.23\00:15:08.66
You don't feel safe.
You don't' feel safe at all.
00:15:08.69\00:15:10.46
So the trick is to
get them in the schools.
00:15:10.49\00:15:11.87
You don't have to
go through it again.
00:15:11.90\00:15:13.27
So you find creative ways
to beat the metal detectors.
00:15:13.30\00:15:15.32
And you know,
whether it's stuffing,
00:15:15.35\00:15:16.72
stuff in the bottom
of your shoe or you know,
00:15:16.75\00:15:19.19
getting through
the metal detectors
00:15:19.22\00:15:20.59
and then you know,
sneaking somebody in the side
00:15:20.62\00:15:22.05
door with something.
00:15:22.08\00:15:23.45
And once you get it in a
locker and you throw a lock on
00:15:23.48\00:15:25.63
and it's nobody's locker
00:15:25.66\00:15:27.03
or something and
then you're safe.
00:15:27.06\00:15:28.43
But, you know, it's normal
if you don't have a weapon--
00:15:28.46\00:15:30.54
you're a bit
exposed and vulnerable.
00:15:30.57\00:15:32.79
Can I-- there are
people that I know
00:15:32.82\00:15:35.85
that are going
to the high school
00:15:35.88\00:15:37.30
that are joining you
and all that kind of stuff
00:15:37.33\00:15:39.59
that aren't
involved in any of that,
00:15:39.62\00:15:41.24
but they know that all of
that's around them. Right.
00:15:41.27\00:15:45.00
And to me that's
kind of an odd thing too
00:15:45.03\00:15:47.31
is that you've got all of
that happening in one school
00:15:47.34\00:15:50.46
and this is school. Right.
00:15:50.49\00:15:52.34
Somewhere in the
middle of that its education.
00:15:52.37\00:15:55.37
Yeah. It's crazy to me. Yeah.
So you're in the middle of that.
00:15:55.40\00:15:59.07
They kick you out
and send you to a--
00:15:59.10\00:16:02.03
Charles C. Rogers
military academy-- That's fine.
00:16:02.06\00:16:03.89
Which my mother
wanted me to get in so.
00:16:03.92\00:16:05.95
She wanted me in the school.
00:16:05.98\00:16:07.35
And this is in the
middle of the another project.
00:16:07.38\00:16:08.75
And so what did you say to him.
00:16:08.78\00:16:10.30
When you knew he was
gonna go to military.
00:16:10.33\00:16:12.09
I could see you
just teasing him.
00:16:12.12\00:16:13.49
It's just terrible.
00:16:13.52\00:16:15.11
Yeah, I did it
was funny too 'cause,
00:16:15.14\00:16:17.01
you know, it wasn't
like, you know, like he said,
00:16:17.04\00:16:19.48
I felt like you know, I was
getting into a lot of stuffing.
00:16:19.51\00:16:22.06
You know, he just
always used to fall short.
00:16:22.09\00:16:24.08
And the things that we did so,
00:16:24.11\00:16:25.54
when he got sent
to military academy
00:16:25.57\00:16:27.73
it was kind of hilarious to
me 'cause we continued to do
00:16:27.76\00:16:30.66
the same old
stuff that we was doing
00:16:30.69\00:16:32.84
and while he was
sent somewhere else.
00:16:32.87\00:16:35.07
I was hanging with
the same people there.
00:16:35.10\00:16:36.94
And we get in
same amount of trouble.
00:16:36.97\00:16:38.34
Is that the first time
that you guys were split up?
00:16:38.37\00:16:41.51
The first time we got
split up was in kindergarten.
00:16:41.54\00:16:46.79
In kindergarten. It was so.
00:16:46.82\00:16:50.57
No, you got to
tell us that story now.
00:16:50.60\00:16:53.09
The kindergarten teacher
used to ask me questions.
00:16:53.12\00:16:56.45
You know, he would
always answer them. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:56.48\00:16:58.64
And so they said
you guys are sitting
00:16:58.67\00:17:00.09
on the other side of
room. Yeah, I was too slow.
00:17:00.12\00:17:01.76
So let him go figure
it out. That's funny.
00:17:01.79\00:17:05.80
And he put me in the afternoon
00:17:05.83\00:17:07.20
because he would
always answer questions
00:17:07.23\00:17:09.35
whenever they asked. That
is funny. And it's just so.
00:17:09.38\00:17:11.63
'Cause you know,
it's really interesting
00:17:11.66\00:17:13.61
when I'm
listening to both of you
00:17:13.64\00:17:15.10
and listening
your story is that.
00:17:15.13\00:17:18.58
And you did have a lot
of leadership in the family.
00:17:18.61\00:17:23.25
Ah, you just went into direction
that was pretty intense.
00:17:23.28\00:17:26.36
But the leadership was from him.
00:17:26.39\00:17:28.92
Although we had
an older brother,
00:17:28.95\00:17:31.75
but that he was somebody
00:17:31.78\00:17:33.15
he was different
in his own right.
00:17:33.18\00:17:36.02
He started
losing his hair early.
00:17:36.05\00:17:37.94
And I think and
when he was nine.
00:17:37.97\00:17:39.34
Yeah, when he was nine.
00:17:39.37\00:17:40.74
Yeah, he has a
condition called Alopecia,
00:17:40.77\00:17:42.90
I don't know if it's
Latin or what, I don't know.
00:17:42.93\00:17:46.29
And so he was always
to himself kind of quiet
00:17:46.32\00:17:48.25
and he never took the
kind of rot that we took
00:17:48.28\00:17:50.43
and so it was like
living in different worlds.
00:17:50.46\00:17:53.18
Didn't he grab you guys
to pull you back sometimes?
00:17:53.21\00:17:59.32
No, I don't think.
00:17:59.35\00:18:00.72
Okay, so you're
now in military school.
00:18:00.75\00:18:03.59
You guys are separated. Yeah.
00:18:03.62\00:18:05.67
What happened next for you?
00:18:05.70\00:18:07.07
So you know in
the military academy,
00:18:07.10\00:18:09.80
you know, you asked
about why I wasn't present
00:18:09.83\00:18:11.27
when my mother passed away.
00:18:11.30\00:18:13.34
It's so I got--
00:18:13.37\00:18:16.57
was runaway with some
kids in the military academy
00:18:16.60\00:18:18.77
and we robbed a guy.
00:18:18.80\00:18:20.75
I got charged,
I'm 16 at this time.
00:18:20.78\00:18:23.20
And so they waive
me up as an adult.
00:18:23.23\00:18:25.45
I get sent off,
00:18:25.48\00:18:27.04
but they sent me
to a juvenile facility
00:18:27.07\00:18:30.15
through adult court. Okay.
And so I'm away for a year.
00:18:30.18\00:18:34.09
And when I come home.
00:18:34.12\00:18:36.81
So I start school
because I graduated high school.
00:18:36.84\00:18:40.23
And I'm working at this complex
and that didn't seem to workout.
00:18:40.26\00:18:43.26
You know, I have
been away for so long
00:18:43.29\00:18:44.73
for the first time in my life
00:18:44.76\00:18:46.23
and only dream
about being home again.
00:18:46.26\00:18:48.50
And so now I'm still
away. I'm in college now.
00:18:48.53\00:18:50.85
And I'm working for this
trans company at the complex
00:18:50.88\00:18:54.66
that I had-- from
which I had just graduated.
00:18:54.69\00:18:56.76
Just hovering hymn services.
00:18:56.79\00:18:58.16
So I graduated the program,
00:18:58.19\00:18:59.56
I go to prom and I
come back a week later
00:18:59.59\00:19:01.43
and I'm employee
00:19:01.46\00:19:02.83
and I'm working
with the same guys
00:19:02.86\00:19:04.23
that I had just
been serving time with.
00:19:04.26\00:19:05.63
And I'm their counselor
and it was kind of weird.
00:19:05.66\00:19:07.03
It was kind of intense. It
was too mature for me. Right.
00:19:07.06\00:19:09.05
And so I went back home.
00:19:09.08\00:19:10.60
And I think that already
00:19:10.63\00:19:12.00
he may have been
exploring drugs a little bit.
00:19:12.03\00:19:15.24
But my thinking was
that I could, you know,
00:19:15.27\00:19:16.70
from doing positive up here.
00:19:16.73\00:19:18.26
And I was in Bay
City at the time Michigan.
00:19:18.29\00:19:20.22
I could take that home.
It didn't work that way.
00:19:20.25\00:19:22.62
And bring that, that
whole positive thing. Yeah.
00:19:22.65\00:19:24.41
'Cause you're life is actually
turning around. Yeah. A bit.
00:19:24.44\00:19:28.24
Yeah, but I think a
little bit before my time
00:19:28.27\00:19:30.76
and a little bit too
much too soon for me.
00:19:30.79\00:19:32.53
And so I went back home
00:19:32.56\00:19:35.39
and things just
didn't workout real well.
00:19:35.42\00:19:37.46
You know, he was
in his some stuff.
00:19:37.49\00:19:39.62
And so I got shot
and this is in 1998
00:19:39.65\00:19:42.40
because of a beefy hair
00:19:42.43\00:19:45.78
with some guys from
another neighborhood.
00:19:45.81\00:19:49.07
I think it's interesting
that you're from such a place
00:19:49.10\00:19:52.44
that you can
smile and laugh and say
00:19:52.47\00:19:54.33
and I got charged
and it's kind of normal.
00:19:54.36\00:19:56.54
And it was never
like the way he got shot.
00:19:56.57\00:19:57.94
I got some buck shots.
You know, so we would cry.
00:19:57.97\00:19:59.94
Oh, bleeding to
death. You stink.
00:19:59.97\00:20:02.60
You smell like a dead body
00:20:02.63\00:20:04.00
'cause it's the so much
blood, blood. Now it's nothing.
00:20:04.03\00:20:06.64
But in that
environment to had be shot at
00:20:06.67\00:20:09.27
or to be stabbed
or come against that,
00:20:09.30\00:20:11.17
that is kind of
something that you just get up
00:20:11.20\00:20:14.61
and get up, do
the next thing. Right.
00:20:14.64\00:20:17.63
And so the next thing
was to explore the drug trade
00:20:17.66\00:20:20.42
because the whole work thing
00:20:20.45\00:20:22.01
and the college thing didn't
workout for me in Detroit.
00:20:22.04\00:20:24.85
And so I turned
out to drug thing,
00:20:24.88\00:20:27.08
didn't neither in Detroit
00:20:27.11\00:20:28.85
and my mother and
I, we had some friction
00:20:28.88\00:20:30.85
and she didn't want me there.
00:20:30.88\00:20:32.25
She wanted me
back where I had come,
00:20:32.28\00:20:33.65
from where I had come,
00:20:33.68\00:20:35.74
'cause this wasn't
where she wanted me.
00:20:35.77\00:20:37.68
And so she didn't want me
in the house and so I left.
00:20:37.71\00:20:40.80
And I went through some
really difficult times then
00:20:40.83\00:20:43.74
and pretty desperate.
00:20:43.77\00:20:45.86
That's why I ended up,
hooking up with some guys
00:20:45.89\00:20:48.42
and going out of state.
00:20:48.45\00:20:49.93
And learning a whole lot
more about the drug trade.
00:20:49.96\00:20:52.07
Survival. Yeah,
and the drug trade.
00:20:52.10\00:20:54.56
And but it--
really quickly because
00:20:54.59\00:20:56.04
really quickly I
you know, it ramps up
00:20:56.07\00:20:59.74
when you take it to
another place and the--
00:20:59.77\00:21:01.49
And so what is that
other place? It was Kentucky.
00:21:01.52\00:21:05.68
Now when you take
it to the other place.
00:21:05.71\00:21:07.32
So you literally are like
you're selling in high school,
00:21:07.35\00:21:11.08
you're playing around
with weed and whatever.
00:21:11.11\00:21:13.69
And when you say you ramp it
up or take it to another place.
00:21:13.72\00:21:16.20
What does that mean? Yeah.
00:21:16.23\00:21:17.60
Okay, so change
of the place was--
00:21:17.63\00:21:19.00
that's geographic,
that was literal. Okay.
00:21:19.03\00:21:20.40
So you know, we literally
00:21:20.43\00:21:21.80
went through a small town
of Kentucky called Lexington.
00:21:21.83\00:21:23.61
And I learned more
about the drug trade
00:21:23.64\00:21:25.13
and it was cocaine and
a little bit of heroin.
00:21:25.16\00:21:26.95
And this was before
heroin was popular again.
00:21:26.98\00:21:28.53
It already phased out.
00:21:28.56\00:21:29.93
Crack was popular and
nobody was using heroin,
00:21:29.96\00:21:32.57
especially in
Lexington, Kentucky. Right.
00:21:32.60\00:21:34.57
And so it didn't take long for
law enforcement to be on to us.
00:21:34.60\00:21:37.37
And I was one of the
first people to get busted.
00:21:37.40\00:21:39.30
You know, it's just my luck
00:21:39.33\00:21:40.70
and my little brother
was sick, he's diabetic.
00:21:40.73\00:21:44.19
And he had an injury on his eye
00:21:44.22\00:21:45.70
and he had to test
out things quickly.
00:21:45.73\00:21:47.60
And it was infected
00:21:47.63\00:21:49.00
and so they had
him in the hospital.
00:21:49.03\00:21:50.58
And I would call home.
And this is back in Detroit.
00:21:50.61\00:21:52.64
This was in Detroit in 1998.
00:21:52.67\00:21:54.36
So I'm sitting in
county jail in Lexington,
00:21:54.39\00:21:55.85
Kentucky, Fayette County.
00:21:55.88\00:21:57.70
And so I'm calling home
00:21:57.73\00:22:00.24
and I'm talking
to my grandmother.
00:22:00.27\00:22:01.73
You know, about
every other day or so,
00:22:01.76\00:22:03.13
to check on the
status of my little brother.
00:22:03.16\00:22:05.49
And she'd be like--
Oh, he's still in hospital.
00:22:05.52\00:22:07.85
And I wanted to talk to
my mother as well because
00:22:07.88\00:22:10.34
there's some things
we needed to tie up.
00:22:10.37\00:22:12.81
And the last time I called,
this was October the 2nd of 1998
00:22:12.84\00:22:18.81
and I was talking
to my grandmother.
00:22:18.84\00:22:20.79
We called her grano.
It's my mother's mother.
00:22:20.82\00:22:23.03
And she said, I asked
her about my little brother.
00:22:23.06\00:22:26.30
You know, it was a ritual
conversation and then she says.
00:22:26.33\00:22:28.45
As grano says, "Jase,
00:22:28.48\00:22:30.23
I want you to stay
with me when you come home.
00:22:30.26\00:22:32.26
And I was, you know, okay, grano
00:22:32.29\00:22:34.42
and I said is Joel
out of the hospital?
00:22:34.45\00:22:36.82
That's my little brother.
00:22:36.85\00:22:38.22
And she said, yeah,
Joel is out of the hospital.
00:22:38.25\00:22:40.52
And then she says,
I'll never forget she said.
00:22:40.55\00:22:41.97
Now Jase I have
something to tell you.
00:22:42.00\00:22:44.52
And I said, okay.
00:22:44.55\00:22:46.20
And she said and
it's shocking to me now
00:22:46.23\00:22:47.99
and I'm thinking about it.
00:22:48.02\00:22:49.39
As it was then,
this was you know,
00:22:49.42\00:22:51.35
many years ago
over a decade ago.
00:22:51.38\00:22:53.32
She said your
mother passed away.
00:22:53.35\00:22:57.32
That's what she
said. And then I said what?
00:22:57.35\00:23:02.64
Yeah. And you know--
00:23:02.67\00:23:04.49
Like what are you talking about?
00:23:04.52\00:23:05.89
What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:05.92\00:23:08.32
And so while I'm getting
pieces of the story later.
00:23:08.35\00:23:12.49
What in fact that happened,
00:23:12.52\00:23:13.89
you know, she had
high blood pressure.
00:23:13.92\00:23:15.29
Hmm, but what did
you feel at that moment
00:23:15.32\00:23:16.80
'cause you're
now saying, you know,
00:23:16.83\00:23:19.84
I didn't wrap that stuff up.
00:23:19.87\00:23:21.66
I didn't, you know,
00:23:21.69\00:23:23.06
so you're not gonna be
able do that kind of thing
00:23:23.09\00:23:25.41
and so what were you feeling
00:23:25.44\00:23:26.81
sitting in jail
and hearing that.
00:23:26.84\00:23:29.80
So of course, instant grief
00:23:29.83\00:23:32.56
and shock and
you know disbelief.
00:23:32.59\00:23:35.34
And it's funny
you ask about then,
00:23:35.37\00:23:36.95
because this is,
was this 2012 it's been
00:23:36.98\00:23:39.41
14 years almost. Yeah.
00:23:39.44\00:23:41.47
And I still feel
the same things today.
00:23:41.50\00:23:43.26
You know this I
guess that's something that
00:23:43.29\00:23:47.12
maybe I'll always deal with,
you know, that same disbeliefs.
00:23:47.15\00:23:50.42
I have dreams to this day
that she'll walk into a room.
00:23:50.45\00:23:54.31
I think that
if-- I told somebody,
00:23:54.34\00:23:55.71
they told me to
stop saying it out loud.
00:23:55.74\00:23:57.43
If somebody told me today,
ah, your mother was spotted,
00:23:57.46\00:24:01.35
I would believe him.
And I would wanna see her.
00:24:01.38\00:24:04.23
And so you know,
I thought that then.
00:24:04.26\00:24:06.27
And you know I
didn't get to see her buried
00:24:06.30\00:24:08.09
and so I feel that today.i
00:24:08.12\00:24:09.49
What kind of changes
did that make in your life?
00:24:09.52\00:24:14.29
You know, when
you lose your mother,
00:24:14.32\00:24:15.69
there's a void, you know,
00:24:15.72\00:24:21.14
that can never be,
never be filled. Right.
00:24:21.17\00:24:26.13
And so you-- did your life
00:24:26.16\00:24:28.64
continue to spiral
out, out of control?
00:24:28.67\00:24:31.34
Did you pick it up
and step into recovery?
00:24:31.37\00:24:36.02
I mean, was there anything
00:24:36.05\00:24:37.66
that you said
that during that time.
00:24:37.69\00:24:40.06
It got better, it got worse.
00:24:40.09\00:24:42.58
It got extremely worse
00:24:42.61\00:24:44.15
and so life was a
big haste at that time.
00:24:44.18\00:24:47.45
You know, I'm
sitting in the county jail.
00:24:47.48\00:24:49.16
And then I'm sent to prison
00:24:49.19\00:24:52.53
and, you know, every
night was the same dream
00:24:52.56\00:24:55.07
or every day, you
know, all you do is
00:24:55.10\00:24:56.47
sleep in the county jail.
00:24:56.50\00:24:57.87
And so the same
dream would be either
00:24:57.90\00:24:59.44
she was about to
die or she'd just died
00:24:59.47\00:25:01.97
or she's walking to a room,
00:25:02.00\00:25:03.37
or she's already
walking to this room.
00:25:03.40\00:25:05.80
And now this was
the same recurring dream
00:25:05.83\00:25:07.39
every single night.
00:25:07.42\00:25:08.82
And so I think a part
of me, well, all of me.
00:25:08.85\00:25:12.71
For the most of me was
trying not to fall apart.
00:25:12.74\00:25:17.18
Whatever that looked
like, I just felt like
00:25:17.21\00:25:18.61
I was probably
about to fall apart,
00:25:18.64\00:25:20.06
you know,
literally unravel. And--
00:25:20.09\00:25:22.93
We gonna ahead and take a break,
00:25:22.96\00:25:25.73
but what's really
gonna be interesting to me
00:25:25.76\00:25:27.71
is to be able to see how
God stepped into that situation
00:25:27.74\00:25:34.62
and stood you up, 'cause I know
you have a powerful ministry.
00:25:34.65\00:25:37.69
And right now my
heart is breaking
00:25:37.72\00:25:39.45
for that boy that
is sitting in jail
00:25:39.48\00:25:44.08
trying to just deal
with that kind of grief.
00:25:44.11\00:25:46.43
And we'll be right
back, stay with us.
00:25:46.46\00:25:48.21