The following program
discusses sensitive issues
00:00:01.40\00:00:03.35
related to addictive behavior.
00:00:03.38\00:00:05.06
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:05.09\00:00:06.89
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:06.92\00:00:09.43
Welcome back.
00:00:14.27\00:00:15.64
You know, one of my
favorite texts in the Bible
00:00:15.67\00:00:18.36
and I have tons of them
00:00:18.39\00:00:19.76
but one of them is
Paul was talking to a group
00:00:19.79\00:00:22.02
and he is like, "You
know, nobody, nobody that sins
00:00:22.05\00:00:26.86
or sleeps around or lies
00:00:26.89\00:00:28.70
or alcoholic or druggies
00:00:28.73\00:00:30.71
or somebody that's
beaten up their spouse,
00:00:30.74\00:00:33.72
nobody like that is
ever gonna see heaven.
00:00:33.75\00:00:36.93
And all of you were
like that at one time."
00:00:36.96\00:00:39.47
And I read that and I like,
00:00:39.50\00:00:40.87
"shut up. No way."
00:00:40.90\00:00:42.27
He is saying, you know,
he's talking to this group
00:00:42.30\00:00:44.78
that has gone into
recovery at some level.
00:00:44.81\00:00:47.81
God has called them.
00:00:47.84\00:00:49.21
They're sitting in a building.
00:00:49.24\00:00:50.61
He's talking about everybody
that they're kind of judging
00:00:50.64\00:00:53.38
and he then turns
it all the way around
00:00:53.41\00:00:55.41
and says all of you
were like that at one point.
00:00:55.44\00:00:57.42
You came from that place.
00:00:57.45\00:00:59.13
And so I want to
introduce you to my next guest
00:00:59.16\00:01:02.32
who definitely came
from that place, Casey? Yes.
00:01:02.35\00:01:05.66
You know, so your name is
David Casey but you go by Casey?
00:01:05.69\00:01:08.81
Yeah, I go by Casey.
00:01:08.84\00:01:10.21
That's what most
people call me. Yeah.
00:01:10.24\00:01:12.20
And you look like you
just never done a thing.
00:01:12.23\00:01:16.32
I haven't been caught
for everything I've done
00:01:16.35\00:01:19.77
but I've done a
lot of stuff, so...
00:01:19.80\00:01:21.21
So we're gonna start--
00:01:21.24\00:01:22.94
I'm gonna ask you
a little bit, like,
00:01:22.97\00:01:24.34
when I was talking
about on the teaching segment
00:01:24.37\00:01:27.18
about doing a lifestyle change
and having to learn everything.
00:01:27.21\00:01:32.53
A little while
into this interview,
00:01:32.56\00:01:34.58
I'm gonna ask you
what you think about that.
00:01:34.61\00:01:36.09
But first tell us
where did you come from
00:01:36.12\00:01:38.77
and kind of what
did you get into?
00:01:38.80\00:01:41.31
I grew up in a
home in a family of,
00:01:41.34\00:01:46.94
I had seven
brothers and sisters.
00:01:46.97\00:01:49.85
And when I grew up,
we--I'm not gonna say,
00:01:49.88\00:01:54.76
you know, like I
termed it before,
00:01:54.79\00:01:58.17
dysfunctional family,
it was just the way it was.
00:01:58.20\00:02:02.97
So when you say that 'cause
a lot of guys are like that,
00:02:03.00\00:02:05.41
they're saying, you
know, it was not bad, it was...
00:02:05.44\00:02:07.18
And then they'll talk
about their mom or dad drinking
00:02:07.21\00:02:09.93
or some abuse in the
family, all that kind of stuff.
00:02:09.96\00:02:12.67
When you say it was
just the way it was,
00:02:12.70\00:02:15.01
was there any
alcohol, was there any--
00:02:15.04\00:02:17.11
No, there wasn't alcohol but
my father was blind, disabled
00:02:17.14\00:02:21.76
and my mother, you know,
dealing with eight kids with,
00:02:21.79\00:02:27.17
you know, no income.
00:02:27.20\00:02:29.96
So some of my
earliest childhood memories was
00:02:29.99\00:02:34.54
she taught us how to steal.
00:02:34.57\00:02:36.33
Taught us, you
know, get things for--
00:02:36.36\00:02:38.16
Just for you
guys to survive? Yeah.
00:02:38.19\00:02:41.14
If we went into a supermarket,
00:02:41.17\00:02:42.54
we went in and ate
while we were there.
00:02:42.57\00:02:45.22
Or shoes or
something that maybe be.
00:02:45.25\00:02:48.00
I know her
intent wasn't to have me
00:02:48.03\00:02:52.20
grow up to be the person I was
00:02:52.23\00:02:54.58
but it was at
the time, you know,
00:02:54.61\00:02:56.99
you want
something, you want this,
00:02:57.02\00:02:59.23
she, you know, taught us
to steal it. You go get it.
00:02:59.26\00:03:02.41
And that set the stage
00:03:02.44\00:03:04.45
'cause at some of my
earliest childhood memories was,
00:03:04.48\00:03:07.75
you know, to do
that. It wasn't--
00:03:07.78\00:03:09.57
I wasn't ever in the mind frame
00:03:09.60\00:03:13.39
of taking
somebody else's property,
00:03:13.42\00:03:16.26
it was don't get caught.
00:03:16.29\00:03:18.50
That was what we were taught.
00:03:18.53\00:03:19.90
And even, you know, to me
00:03:19.93\00:03:21.30
I think in some of those homes
00:03:21.33\00:03:22.85
were truly
dysfunctional like that,
00:03:22.88\00:03:24.70
it's you really,
that'd say, "Good job.
00:03:24.73\00:03:27.02
I can't believe you got those.
00:03:27.05\00:03:28.51
I can't believe you
got away with that."
00:03:28.54\00:03:30.58
You know, so your,
your positive stuff
00:03:30.61\00:03:33.48
comes from this twisted. Yeah.
00:03:33.51\00:03:36.19
We did that with each
other, my brothers and sisters
00:03:36.22\00:03:39.26
and I, you know,
"Look what I got."
00:03:39.29\00:03:41.77
You know, my dad used
to say, I found more stuff.
00:03:41.80\00:03:44.39
He'd say, "I don't know how
you keep finding all that stuff.
00:03:44.42\00:03:46.41
You know, you find more stuff
00:03:46.44\00:03:47.81
than anybody
ever met, you know."
00:03:47.84\00:03:49.21
I found some new shoes.
00:03:49.24\00:03:51.00
Right, I found it but I
was actually stealing it.
00:03:51.03\00:03:54.27
That just led me in
that direction of life
00:03:54.30\00:03:58.36
where I had no boundaries
00:03:58.39\00:04:03.00
in the sense of
what I shouldn't do.
00:04:03.03\00:04:07.04
You know, sure my father
told us not to do those things
00:04:07.07\00:04:09.72
but I had no boundaries.
00:04:09.75\00:04:11.60
My mindset was
just don't get caught,
00:04:11.63\00:04:14.39
do whatever you want. Right.
00:04:14.42\00:04:15.79
And where were you in--
and were you youngest, oldest?
00:04:15.82\00:04:18.75
In the middle. Okay.
00:04:18.78\00:04:20.15
Middle. Okay.
00:04:20.18\00:04:21.55
And so your whole life
is kind of a little bit--
00:04:21.58\00:04:24.43
well, definitely
out of the norm-- Yeah.
00:04:24.46\00:04:26.99
You were loved, you knew that?
00:04:27.02\00:04:29.92
To the best of
my mother's ability,
00:04:29.95\00:04:32.54
yes, I do not believe
00:04:32.57\00:04:34.54
she intended to
hurt us in anyway.
00:04:34.57\00:04:38.76
It was just not
having the ability to,
00:04:38.79\00:04:42.33
you know, know how to
actually raise a child.
00:04:42.36\00:04:45.45
You know, all she could
do was what she could do.
00:04:45.48\00:04:47.52
She was young.
00:04:47.55\00:04:48.92
She passed away when she was 37.
00:04:48.95\00:04:51.12
So she was young when she had,
00:04:51.15\00:04:52.96
you know, all of us kids.
00:04:52.99\00:04:54.36
Right. So...
00:04:54.39\00:04:55.76
Well, at what age did
she have the first child?
00:04:55.79\00:04:58.27
I don't know what her age was
when she had the first child.
00:04:58.30\00:05:01.35
Definitely in her
teens. But she was 37.
00:05:01.38\00:05:02.81
Right, she was young
when she passed away.
00:05:02.84\00:05:05.44
Well, and what she died from?
00:05:05.47\00:05:07.75
She had a medical condition,
00:05:07.78\00:05:09.84
blood clot moving to her
lungs or something. I am sorry.
00:05:09.87\00:05:14.25
So you know what's
interesting to me, Casey,
00:05:14.28\00:05:16.01
is that, that even the fact
of, you know, when you sit down
00:05:16.04\00:05:19.32
and you start out with
this, kind of I had an,
00:05:19.35\00:05:21.52
you know, I don't know if
I would call it dysfunction,
00:05:21.55\00:05:23.77
but you've dealt with a lot,
00:05:23.80\00:05:25.38
even the loss of
your mom early on
00:05:25.41\00:05:27.29
and your dad's disability had
to play a role in your family?
00:05:27.32\00:05:33.04
It did, but, you know,
00:05:33.07\00:05:35.09
when you're
dealing with these things,
00:05:35.12\00:05:36.67
you're not thinking
like, you know, what was me?
00:05:36.70\00:05:39.88
Yeah, it's just the way it was.
00:05:39.91\00:05:41.28
I wasn't
thinking that in my mind
00:05:41.31\00:05:42.69
but I think it does
play out in my behavior
00:05:42.72\00:05:46.78
'cause I know after
my mother passed away,
00:05:46.81\00:05:48.60
I become like very
angry young guy with just,
00:05:48.63\00:05:53.14
you know, how can this happen?
00:05:53.17\00:05:54.86
And then deciding to
take care of yourself.
00:05:54.89\00:05:58.43
Right and it was
just as I matured,
00:05:58.46\00:06:02.99
you know, not matured
mentally but as I got older,
00:06:03.02\00:06:06.72
the next step was drugs
and stuff and I started,
00:06:06.75\00:06:10.92
you know, there
was no limits to that.
00:06:10.95\00:06:13.23
There was no--
I had no reasoning
00:06:13.26\00:06:15.46
of what not to do
00:06:15.49\00:06:16.86
or don't try this. If
it was there, you did it?
00:06:16.89\00:06:18.59
I did it. Yeah.
00:06:18.62\00:06:19.99
It didn't matter to me. Yeah.
00:06:20.02\00:06:21.44
And that's for a lot of people
they don't understand is that
00:06:21.47\00:06:23.84
I will, I will literally
take whatever is on the table
00:06:23.87\00:06:27.03
and probably more than
anybody else in the room. Yeah.
00:06:27.06\00:06:30.18
'Cause you're, you know, you're
just kind of crazy in that way.
00:06:30.21\00:06:34.19
But your anger drove you?
00:06:34.22\00:06:36.39
The anger drove me
and I didn't realize it.
00:06:36.42\00:06:41.28
You know, you
don't know these things.
00:06:41.31\00:06:43.67
I wasn't able to
diagnose myself at that time
00:06:43.70\00:06:47.30
but looking back
now, I was very angry
00:06:47.33\00:06:51.97
because I had no
regard for anybody.
00:06:52.00\00:06:54.84
I had no respect for anybody
00:06:54.87\00:06:57.33
and whatever I
wanted to do, I did.
00:06:57.36\00:06:59.91
And I didn't care.
00:06:59.94\00:07:01.31
I didn't even care
about the consequences
00:07:01.34\00:07:03.27
that it would result
with me going to prison
00:07:03.30\00:07:06.26
or jail or the police or--
00:07:06.29\00:07:09.17
And all of that happened
in your life? If you're--
00:07:09.20\00:07:10.83
it all happened repeatedly.
00:07:10.86\00:07:12.92
If I was robbing a
store, which I've done a lot,
00:07:12.95\00:07:18.74
and if I had a
gun, I wasn't worried
00:07:18.77\00:07:21.41
that the owner of
the store might shoot me,
00:07:21.44\00:07:24.68
I got this, I'm in control
of this situation. Right.
00:07:24.71\00:07:27.88
So I was--you know,
it does happen to people.
00:07:27.91\00:07:30.90
I mean, I've seen
it happen to friends
00:07:30.93\00:07:32.39
but fortunately it
didn't happen to me,
00:07:32.42\00:07:35.40
but I never had fear--
00:07:35.43\00:07:36.80
If anybody that's gonna be shot,
00:07:36.83\00:07:38.20
it was gonna be the
owner of the store. Right.
00:07:38.23\00:07:39.60
I'm the one-- I'm
in control of this.
00:07:39.63\00:07:41.13
I'm doing this.
00:07:41.16\00:07:42.53
If there's gonna
be fear invoked here,
00:07:42.56\00:07:44.66
I'm invoking it on you.
00:07:44.69\00:07:46.60
Right. So...
00:07:46.63\00:07:48.00
And to me what-- can
you talk a little bit
00:07:48.03\00:07:51.54
about the
seduction of that power,
00:07:51.57\00:07:55.33
I mean, you know
that I'm the guy?
00:07:55.36\00:07:57.83
It was, it was, it was, it did,
00:07:57.86\00:08:01.36
like, buzz you up
00:08:01.39\00:08:02.76
and later on in
my life I would think
00:08:02.79\00:08:06.11
because before I
would walk in a building
00:08:06.14\00:08:08.48
or walk in to do
something like that,
00:08:08.51\00:08:11.92
I would be able to be
outside with another person
00:08:11.95\00:08:14.67
or whatever joking, laughing,
00:08:14.70\00:08:16.59
and say, "All right, let's go."
Yeah, it's time to do this--
00:08:16.62\00:08:18.62
And pull the mask down and go in
with an aggression that people,
00:08:18.65\00:08:24.89
I didn't need
somebody to push my button
00:08:24.92\00:08:28.33
or trigger this aggression,
00:08:28.36\00:08:30.81
it was like a transformation
where in your mind
00:08:30.84\00:08:34.34
you're just, you know, I
would just be extremely violent.
00:08:34.37\00:08:37.84
All right. So...
00:08:37.87\00:08:40.84
And let me just say something
00:08:40.87\00:08:42.34
and I know this is that
some people say that's an act.
00:08:42.37\00:08:46.16
It's not an act,
you've become that guy.
00:08:46.19\00:08:48.92
And everything--
if you say no to me,
00:08:48.95\00:08:51.07
I could shoot you in the
face and I would walk away
00:08:51.10\00:08:54.19
and feel okay about that.
00:08:54.22\00:08:55.91
No, it wasn't an
act, it was real.
00:08:55.94\00:08:57.41
I would turn it on. Right.
00:08:57.44\00:08:59.24
And this is where
later-- years later in my life,
00:08:59.27\00:09:02.03
I tried to deal with this like,
"How was I able to do this?"
00:09:02.06\00:09:06.23
It wasn't acting because
if I would've been acting,
00:09:06.26\00:09:10.23
there would be a element
of me being in fear. Right.
00:09:10.26\00:09:14.25
I was in complete control
00:09:14.28\00:09:16.52
and knew what I
was prepared to do
00:09:16.55\00:09:19.23
to complete
whatever I was doing.
00:09:19.26\00:09:22.82
And to deal with
whatever happened
00:09:22.85\00:09:24.35
in that circle? Whatever.
00:09:24.38\00:09:25.89
So, so, you went from stealing
in stores to armed robberies...
00:09:25.92\00:09:31.11
At 15 years old,
00:09:31.14\00:09:34.37
I started doing what
they call today carjacking.
00:09:34.40\00:09:39.65
We were doing that,
you know, in the '70s.
00:09:39.68\00:09:43.77
I lived in Detroit at that
time and we would hitchhike,
00:09:43.80\00:09:46.35
people would pick you up.
00:09:46.38\00:09:47.97
You know, we would
take their car and rob them.
00:09:48.00\00:09:51.47
Then I did start
doing armed robberies.
00:09:51.50\00:09:54.19
And at 17 years old,
00:09:54.22\00:09:57.04
I was arrested
for an armed robbery
00:09:57.07\00:09:59.13
and wound up going to
state prison in Michigan
00:09:59.16\00:10:02.26
for 5 to 15
years at 17 years old.
00:10:02.29\00:10:05.55
Right, did you--
00:10:05.58\00:10:06.95
how much time
did you actually do?
00:10:06.98\00:10:08.95
I did 5 1/2 on it
00:10:08.98\00:10:10.35
because I was
cooperating with the prison.
00:10:10.38\00:10:14.46
So let me just say 'cause,
you know, when you look at,
00:10:14.49\00:10:18.54
you know, and I
don't care who it is
00:10:18.57\00:10:20.36
when I deal with
somebody in recovery,
00:10:20.39\00:10:21.98
when you look at a 17 year
old underneath all that anger
00:10:22.01\00:10:26.07
and all that
craziness as a 17 year old
00:10:26.10\00:10:28.13
and now you're in prison,
00:10:28.16\00:10:29.53
so what did that
look like for you
00:10:29.56\00:10:30.93
and did you have to turn it
on and leave it on for 5 years?
00:10:30.96\00:10:34.40
Just one thing I'd like to say
00:10:34.43\00:10:36.40
you were talking
about making a bed.
00:10:36.43\00:10:38.64
I was at a prison in Michigan
00:10:38.67\00:10:40.66
and they were
telling me to make my bed.
00:10:40.69\00:10:43.84
And I said, "I'm
not making my bed.
00:10:43.87\00:10:46.27
I'm doing 5 to 15
years," You make my bed.
00:10:46.30\00:10:48.91
Yeah, "I'm not making it."
00:10:48.94\00:10:50.96
Yes, we're giving you a
direct order, "Make your bed."
00:10:50.99\00:10:53.56
I said, "Are you crazy?
00:10:53.59\00:10:56.20
I'm in your jail and
I'm not making my bed."
00:10:56.23\00:10:59.04
So they'd come and
took me to the hole,
00:10:59.07\00:11:01.99
put me in the hole and I
laid in there for about--
00:11:02.02\00:11:04.09
So what's a hole for
people that don't know?
00:11:04.12\00:11:05.98
Segregating housing unit
where you just put in a cell
00:11:06.01\00:11:08.99
and you just stay in that cell,
00:11:09.02\00:11:10.39
that's it. No stimulation.
00:11:10.42\00:11:11.79
They just slide your
meals in under the door
00:11:11.82\00:11:14.60
or through a
slide in the door. Yeah.
00:11:14.63\00:11:16.49
So they put me in the
hole and I'm lying in there,
00:11:16.52\00:11:18.69
you know, thinking, "Yeah,
I'm sure I'm not making my bed."
00:11:18.72\00:11:21.45
About 12 days later I was, like
00:11:21.48\00:11:23.05
"Okay, okay, I'm
making." Where is that bed?
00:11:23.08\00:11:24.90
"I'll make it.
00:11:24.93\00:11:26.30
I'll make the
bed. I'll make it."
00:11:26.33\00:11:27.85
And so now, you
know, I'm telling you
00:11:27.88\00:11:29.25
go home and make your bed?
00:11:29.28\00:11:30.65
I'll make every
bed in the unit. Yeah.
00:11:30.68\00:11:33.48
But isn't that funny to say?
00:11:33.51\00:11:34.88
Yeah, so I was very
rebellious in that sense. Yeah.
00:11:34.91\00:11:38.07
So even in
prison, it was almost--
00:11:38.10\00:11:41.27
once I was put
into that environment,
00:11:41.30\00:11:43.11
especially at 17 years old,
it was almost like I thrived.
00:11:43.14\00:11:47.24
It was almost
like, "Oh, this is it.
00:11:47.27\00:11:49.38
This is where I belong--
00:11:49.41\00:11:50.78
I know how to, I
know how to live here.
00:11:50.81\00:11:52.18
Right, because, you know,
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.58
inadvertently,
my father taught us
00:11:53.61\00:11:56.27
that violence controls
people and their behavior.
00:11:56.30\00:12:01.38
This is what he tried to do by,
00:12:01.41\00:12:03.46
you know, punishing us
00:12:03.49\00:12:05.85
to not do what my mother
was teaching us that violence,
00:12:05.88\00:12:10.90
you can control
people and their behavior.
00:12:10.93\00:12:13.47
So they put me
into an environment
00:12:13.50\00:12:15.52
that was perfectly set up
00:12:15.55\00:12:17.38
for everything I'd
been taught. Right.
00:12:17.41\00:12:19.90
So I never had a period in there
00:12:19.93\00:12:24.09
where I felt like, "Uh, boy,
this is--I'm out of place here.
00:12:24.12\00:12:28.36
I don't belong in
prison." Yeah, I'm afraid or...
00:12:28.39\00:12:30.26
I was shocked when
they first sent me to prison
00:12:30.29\00:12:32.16
because at 17 years old,
00:12:32.19\00:12:33.88
I thought the crimes
that I was committing,
00:12:33.91\00:12:36.03
you don't go to prison. Right.
00:12:36.06\00:12:37.82
But they--it was.
They were serious crimes.
00:12:37.85\00:12:40.80
You know, robbing a
pizzeria or a store--
00:12:40.83\00:12:43.99
Hijacking a car--
00:12:44.02\00:12:45.63
Right, every thing
was serious crimes.
00:12:45.66\00:12:47.25
But in your mind,
they weren't? No--
00:12:47.28\00:12:49.58
You haven't killed
anybody. At that point, right.
00:12:49.61\00:12:52.62
And it wasn't for
the lack of not trying.
00:12:52.65\00:12:56.58
You know what I mean, if
a car--if somebody took--
00:12:56.61\00:12:58.42
And one thing, you
just say that so casual,
00:12:58.45\00:13:02.72
that was the lifestyle.
00:13:02.75\00:13:04.62
It is-- through that lifestyle,
00:13:04.65\00:13:06.02
you are somewhat desensitized
to the inhumanity of it
00:13:06.05\00:13:10.75
of what's going on.
00:13:10.78\00:13:12.15
So, I mean, I don't
say it in a cavalier way
00:13:12.18\00:13:14.02
but I did deal with it.
00:13:14.05\00:13:16.33
And it wasn't in my mind, like,
I know how people think today
00:13:16.36\00:13:21.71
what you were
referring to normal people
00:13:21.74\00:13:23.58
because I've been around
a lot of normal people now
00:13:23.61\00:13:26.36
and I know they
thing differently
00:13:26.39\00:13:27.90
because they don't understand
how could you do that. Right.
00:13:27.93\00:13:30.69
So how could you
even think that way?
00:13:30.72\00:13:32.73
If somebody was
somewhat reluctant to give me
00:13:32.76\00:13:37.17
what I was taking, I would,
you know, you would attack him,
00:13:37.20\00:13:41.09
assault him. You know, I
don't want to get too graphic
00:13:41.12\00:13:43.31
but you would actually, no,
no, you're setting this out.
00:13:43.34\00:13:47.17
I'm not leaving
without it. Right.
00:13:47.20\00:13:49.14
And I'm gonna take everything
I need to take to get it.
00:13:49.17\00:13:52.23
So if you want to, you know,
how far do you want this to go?
00:13:52.26\00:13:57.23
And I've used a
phrase before, you know,
00:13:57.26\00:14:00.07
when I would be
doing robberies at time,
00:14:00.10\00:14:01.71
you know, telling people,
00:14:01.74\00:14:03.11
you know, "Let's not
have this be a homicide.
00:14:03.14\00:14:05.59
You know, don't cause
this to be a homicide.
00:14:05.62\00:14:08.14
Just get this set
this stuff up. Just relax.
00:14:08.17\00:14:10.68
And I did a lot of
those in, you know, prison--
00:14:10.71\00:14:14.47
So now you talk
about in so in prison
00:14:14.50\00:14:17.64
you realized that I can--
this is the people I know.
00:14:17.67\00:14:21.68
This is environment
I know. I can do this.
00:14:21.71\00:14:27.06
Yeah, I hate to say it
00:14:27.09\00:14:29.28
but I kind of
felt comfortable. Yeah.
00:14:29.31\00:14:31.99
It wasn't an
experience like people believe,
00:14:32.02\00:14:35.52
"Oh, it must be
horrible in here.
00:14:35.55\00:14:37.43
It must be bad."
00:14:37.46\00:14:38.83
No, I actually felt
comfortable and I fit.
00:14:38.86\00:14:42.27
You knew the rules? Right.
00:14:42.30\00:14:43.94
You learned them.
And it continued on.
00:14:43.97\00:14:47.15
Well, the first--the
first time I went to prison,
00:14:47.18\00:14:49.90
it took me a long
time to realize that
00:14:49.93\00:14:52.63
these people
are running a prison
00:14:52.66\00:14:54.24
and they're gonna run it
the way they want to run it
00:14:54.27\00:14:56.05
and I can't run it, so I
needed to go with it. Right.
00:14:56.08\00:14:59.13
But I'm not talking
about the rules of the prison
00:14:59.16\00:15:01.24
or the prison guards,
00:15:01.27\00:15:02.64
I'm talking about
the rules of the inmates
00:15:02.67\00:15:04.79
because that's a
whole different thing.
00:15:04.82\00:15:06.56
It's a whole subculture. Yes.
00:15:06.59\00:15:08.59
Yeah, but those rules
can even be altered by force.
00:15:08.62\00:15:15.66
You know what I
mean, if a guy says,
00:15:15.69\00:15:17.29
"Hey, man, that's my chair.
00:15:17.32\00:15:18.79
That's my"--"Not anymore." Yeah.
00:15:18.82\00:15:21.66
The rules are that,
that's this guy's seat in
00:15:21.69\00:15:25.99
where you watch
TV or the chow hall
00:15:26.02\00:15:28.31
or what have
you. "No, not anymore.
00:15:28.34\00:15:30.78
That was your seat, beat it."
00:15:30.81\00:15:32.99
So that type of thing
and the rule to that is,
00:15:33.02\00:15:35.97
are you strong
enough to take this?
00:15:36.00\00:15:39.83
Are you strong enough to
invoke this thing you're doing?
00:15:39.86\00:15:43.94
So guys would try
to alter the rules
00:15:43.97\00:15:47.93
and they may not
have the ability to do it.
00:15:47.96\00:15:51.10
Fortunately for
me, a pretty big guy
00:15:51.13\00:15:54.74
and the level of my
violence was limitless. Right.
00:15:54.77\00:16:00.54
So I was able to
really thrive in there.
00:16:00.57\00:16:04.53
You know, what's
really interesting to me
00:16:04.56\00:16:06.61
is that everything
that you knew really,
00:16:06.64\00:16:11.61
you learned well
and more so in prison
00:16:11.64\00:16:13.78
than anywhere else I'm sure.
00:16:13.81\00:16:15.96
You know, what I
mean it's like that,
00:16:15.99\00:16:17.72
you know, now I
am really reinforced
00:16:17.75\00:16:19.98
that my violence is
how I'm gonna get things.
00:16:20.01\00:16:22.55
That this is what's
gonna keep me alive.
00:16:22.58\00:16:24.09
The worst thing--
I've said this in the past.
00:16:24.12\00:16:27.26
I think one of the worst
things that the justice system
00:16:27.29\00:16:30.89
did at that time was to
send me to an adult prison.
00:16:30.92\00:16:36.13
They don't do it anymore
but I actually was at that time
00:16:36.16\00:16:39.22
at 17 put into Jackson
Prison in Jackson, Michigan.
00:16:39.25\00:16:42.76
It's the largest
walled prison in the world.
00:16:42.79\00:16:45.85
I mean, there's every
type of criminal in there.
00:16:45.88\00:16:48.53
So you're introduced to, I mean,
every type of criminal that's,
00:16:48.56\00:16:55.55
you know, committed
crimes in the state of Michigan.
00:16:55.58\00:16:58.80
And I think they made a mistake.
00:16:58.83\00:17:00.72
And they know this now.
00:17:00.75\00:17:02.12
Now they have separate
facilities set up for anybody
00:17:02.15\00:17:05.68
from 17 to 21 and
different things like that.
00:17:05.71\00:17:09.19
But that was a mistake.
00:17:09.22\00:17:12.74
'Cause if you're gonna survive,
00:17:12.77\00:17:14.14
you have to learn
more behaviors. Right.
00:17:14.17\00:17:17.37
I mean, I was 17 years old.
00:17:17.40\00:17:18.86
I was big-- I was,
you know, a big kid
00:17:18.89\00:17:21.20
but I wasn't willing,
00:17:21.23\00:17:24.23
I wasn't--I was willing
to do whatever I had to do
00:17:24.26\00:17:32.14
to make sure people knew
that, you know, I'm a big kid
00:17:32.17\00:17:35.32
but you're not just
gonna come in my cell and take,
00:17:35.35\00:17:38.30
you know, my groceries.
00:17:38.33\00:17:39.85
Or you're not just
gonna come in my cell
00:17:39.88\00:17:41.29
and take my stuff. Right.
00:17:41.32\00:17:43.01
You know what I mean,
'cause all that robberies,
00:17:43.04\00:17:45.79
the same stuff,
the sexual assaults
00:17:45.82\00:17:48.06
all that stuff
goes on in prisons.
00:17:48.09\00:17:50.13
Drugs, dealing.
You know, robbing.
00:17:50.16\00:17:51.86
If somebody walking back
from the store with groceries,
00:17:51.89\00:17:54.86
you got a couple guys in
there that don't have nothing
00:17:54.89\00:17:57.85
and they are doing 20
to 30 years for something
00:17:57.88\00:18:00.84
and you think they care about,
you know, your grandmother cash
00:18:00.87\00:18:05.33
and a disability
check and sending you,
00:18:05.36\00:18:08.02
you know, $40 in a joint,
00:18:08.05\00:18:09.64
so you can walk
over to the commissary
00:18:09.67\00:18:11.38
and buy a couple of items, no.
00:18:11.41\00:18:13.79
So they don't care.
00:18:13.82\00:18:15.19
So you have all that same
type of behavior in there.
00:18:15.22\00:18:18.65
So it's a matter of
being a man and just,
00:18:18.68\00:18:22.62
you know, now not
everybody has to be involved
00:18:22.65\00:18:26.34
in that type of behavior.
00:18:26.37\00:18:27.74
You know, there's
guys in there that--
00:18:27.77\00:18:30.78
Just do their time. Do
their time and pass through.
00:18:30.81\00:18:33.76
You know, they're
passing through there.
00:18:33.79\00:18:35.57
And... But you survived there.
00:18:35.60\00:18:38.10
So you did the
5 1/2 years there.
00:18:38.13\00:18:41.09
You get out and what
happens when you get out?
00:18:41.12\00:18:44.83
I actually thought at
the time when I got out,
00:18:44.86\00:18:47.43
I said, "You know, I'm never
coming back to prison again."
00:18:47.46\00:18:50.48
I actually thought, you
know, I was rehabilitated.
00:18:50.51\00:18:55.18
So I said, "I'm never
coming back here again."
00:18:55.21\00:18:58.28
And when I got
out, it was, like,
00:18:58.31\00:19:00.71
I mean, within
weeks, couple weeks,
00:19:00.74\00:19:05.83
6 weeks I was riving
again, within 6 weeks.
00:19:05.86\00:19:09.56
I was doing drugs.
00:19:09.59\00:19:10.96
I was right back like I
had never left the streets.
00:19:10.99\00:19:14.51
And, you know, the result.
00:19:14.54\00:19:17.30
You know, when you
say that like I get out
00:19:17.33\00:19:19.57
and in your mind
at least for a minute,
00:19:19.60\00:19:22.72
it's like I'm
not going back there.
00:19:22.75\00:19:24.92
I'm not doing that again.
00:19:24.95\00:19:26.60
Is there anything or
anybody that kind of reached out
00:19:26.63\00:19:31.44
and grabbed hold of
you when you got out?
00:19:31.47\00:19:33.60
Or were you just
saying, you know,
00:19:33.63\00:19:36.56
'cause, I mean,
what would change?
00:19:36.59\00:19:38.68
I mean, everything that
you learned for 5 1/2 years
00:19:38.71\00:19:40.87
just kind of
escalated who you were
00:19:40.90\00:19:42.51
just increased
all those behaviors.
00:19:42.54\00:19:44.60
So did anybody step up and say,
00:19:44.63\00:19:46.48
you know, here's a
rehab or a halfway house or...
00:19:46.51\00:19:50.40
No, you know, naturally,
you have a parole officer
00:19:50.43\00:19:53.61
that's willing to
monitor your behavior
00:19:53.64\00:19:55.96
but they're not trying
to discourage you from,
00:19:55.99\00:20:00.64
you know, bad behavior.
00:20:00.67\00:20:02.55
They're just watching to catch
you when you do something bad.
00:20:02.58\00:20:06.76
They're not trying to
say, like, "Gee, young man,
00:20:06.79\00:20:09.31
I hope you really make it.
00:20:09.34\00:20:10.71
I hope you do well out here."
00:20:10.74\00:20:12.11
No, they're just waiting
for you to hang yourself.
00:20:12.14\00:20:16.06
So I had, my family was,
00:20:16.09\00:20:18.55
you know, my
brothers and sisters
00:20:18.58\00:20:19.95
and everybody have always been
supportive of me to an extent.
00:20:19.98\00:20:24.05
I'm not saying
they weren't. Right.
00:20:24.08\00:20:27.09
But it was decisions that I made
00:20:27.12\00:20:29.61
to choose to go
away from my family,
00:20:29.64\00:20:32.71
like you said
earlier, and not be normal,
00:20:32.74\00:20:36.89
not go home and have
dinner with my family
00:20:36.92\00:20:39.86
and stay at the house
00:20:39.89\00:20:41.26
and what am I
gonna do this evening?
00:20:41.29\00:20:42.66
I had to do. Right.
00:20:42.69\00:20:44.12
No, no, no.
00:20:44.15\00:20:45.52
I had to go to the street.
00:20:45.55\00:20:46.95
I'm gonna miss something. Right.
00:20:46.98\00:20:48.73
If I'm here at the house,
00:20:48.76\00:20:50.32
what's going on out
there I'm gonna miss it. Right.
00:20:50.35\00:20:52.84
And it was like an obsession,
00:20:52.87\00:20:54.98
a compulsion that
I had to be there.
00:20:55.01\00:20:58.26
I had to be out there.
00:20:58.29\00:20:59.66
So you had that going
back out, you're robbing again.
00:20:59.69\00:21:02.20
It was just weeks
before you get busted again.
00:21:02.23\00:21:05.04
Now it's a
violation of probation?
00:21:05.07\00:21:06.87
Yes, and a new case. Okay.
00:21:06.90\00:21:09.70
So I wind up back
in prison. How long?
00:21:09.73\00:21:12.60
I got 3 to 15, the
second time, that time. Okay.
00:21:12.63\00:21:17.39
And went through
the whole process again.
00:21:17.42\00:21:20.50
And what I have to say
too is when you get in there
00:21:20.53\00:21:24.75
even the second time is
you won't pack and settle in.
00:21:24.78\00:21:27.52
I know how to do this.
00:21:27.55\00:21:28.92
Yeah, it was a little--
00:21:28.95\00:21:30.32
at the beginning
it was a little--
00:21:30.35\00:21:34.14
well, let me, let
me back track once.
00:21:34.17\00:21:36.19
I did escape in 1979 when
I was in on the first time
00:21:36.22\00:21:42.41
and I escaped from state
prison system in Michigan
00:21:42.44\00:21:45.64
and I was out on
a run for 15 months
00:21:45.67\00:21:48.86
and I wound up getting arrested
in Houston and everything.
00:21:48.89\00:21:51.93
So when I went
back after that escape
00:21:51.96\00:21:54.97
and I had to do extra time
in the remaining of my time,
00:21:55.00\00:21:58.77
that's when I said, "Man,
this is harder coming back."
00:21:58.80\00:22:03.29
It was a little different.
00:22:03.32\00:22:04.69
So then after that
period, when I got up,
00:22:04.72\00:22:06.89
it just seemed like, you
know, I'd been out there. Yeah.
00:22:06.92\00:22:09.31
You know, I was out
there. I don't want to be back.
00:22:09.34\00:22:10.77
Right, I don't want to be back.
00:22:10.80\00:22:12.25
And so when I got
back in and I did it,
00:22:12.28\00:22:15.40
that's when I got
out after that first bit
00:22:15.43\00:22:18.12
and I include
that before the escape
00:22:18.15\00:22:20.25
and after the
escape as the first bit,
00:22:20.28\00:22:22.87
the first sentence.
00:22:22.90\00:22:24.61
After I got out after
that, that's when I said,
00:22:24.64\00:22:26.60
"I'm never going
back," but I went back.
00:22:26.63\00:22:29.88
So it was a little
harder when you went back?
00:22:29.91\00:22:32.65
Yes, it was-- the first it takes
00:22:32.68\00:22:35.12
a couple months to
adjust and then, you know,
00:22:35.15\00:22:37.15
you're just back in and
it's like you never left.
00:22:37.18\00:22:40.44
How much time--
Because the time goes so fast.
00:22:40.47\00:22:43.90
And that time I
did little over the 3
00:22:43.93\00:22:50.67
because I came
back on a violation
00:22:50.70\00:22:53.02
that probe board made
me do some extra time.
00:22:53.05\00:22:55.73
And I was released again and...
00:22:55.76\00:23:00.79
There's a famous saying
that I love in recovery.
00:23:00.82\00:23:03.95
It says, if you want
to relapse, somebody says,
00:23:03.98\00:23:07.50
"Well, what do I
do to avoid relapse?"
00:23:07.53\00:23:11.17
This says, if you
are worried about that,
00:23:11.20\00:23:14.47
you have to got to do something.
00:23:14.50\00:23:15.87
You've got to
change your behaviors.
00:23:15.90\00:23:17.27
But if you do
absolutely nothing new,
00:23:17.30\00:23:19.94
it's just a matter of
time before you're back in jail
00:23:19.97\00:23:22.00
or you're back
in your addiction.
00:23:22.03\00:23:24.70
Like as you came out,
00:23:24.73\00:23:26.10
even here when you say that
00:23:26.13\00:23:27.50
the sadness was
is not doing anything
00:23:27.53\00:23:30.28
than those behaviors is
just a matter of days or weeks
00:23:30.31\00:23:33.09
before those behaviors pick up
00:23:33.12\00:23:34.94
and that's with
all of us. Right.
00:23:34.97\00:23:36.55
And it's really apparent when
somebody is in and out of jail
00:23:36.58\00:23:39.30
because you want to just
say "Baby, don't do that.
00:23:39.33\00:23:41.99
You just did that."
00:23:42.02\00:23:43.39
You know, Cliff
Harris who's a friend of mine
00:23:43.42\00:23:45.59
who was in and out of jail
and his son used to say "Daddy,
00:23:45.62\00:23:48.25
that's what got you in jail."
00:23:48.28\00:23:49.71
But if nothing
changes, nothing changes.
00:23:49.74\00:23:53.07
Other people can see that
but for some reason at a time,
00:23:53.10\00:23:56.20
I mean, like I said, I
knew prison was gonna be
00:23:56.23\00:24:00.60
the result of my behavior
00:24:00.63\00:24:03.29
but you're just
hoping it's not today. Yeah.
00:24:03.32\00:24:05.38
I hope today I
don't get caught. Right.
00:24:05.41\00:24:07.14
So I know if I keep doing this,
00:24:07.17\00:24:09.98
well, maybe I'll
stop before I get caught.
00:24:10.01\00:24:12.07
But if I keep living this
lifestyle, I'm gonna get caught.
00:24:12.10\00:24:14.59
So how many, how many
times were you in and out? Five.
00:24:14.62\00:24:17.90
Five. Five times?
00:24:17.93\00:24:20.09
My heart breaks for you.
00:24:20.12\00:24:21.80
You know, I feel like, you know,
00:24:21.83\00:24:23.37
I know that your
mom wasn't around,
00:24:23.40\00:24:24.77
but I feel like there
somebody had to say to you
00:24:24.80\00:24:27.32
my heart breaks that you had
to deal with that so many times.
00:24:27.35\00:24:29.85
I know it upset my family.
One time my brother was--
00:24:29.88\00:24:34.24
they were at my
court and they were crying.
00:24:34.27\00:24:36.36
And I'm like, "What,
what are you upset about?"
00:24:36.39\00:24:40.56
"We don't want to
see you in there."
00:24:40.59\00:24:42.85
I said, "I'm the
one doing the time.
00:24:42.88\00:24:44.25
What are you
worried about it for?
00:24:44.28\00:24:45.65
Don't worry
about it. I got this."
00:24:45.68\00:24:48.09
So I didn't understand
that in those different times
00:24:48.12\00:24:52.69
but I've done a
total of 24 1/2 years
00:24:52.72\00:24:56.30
in state and federal prisons.
00:24:56.33\00:24:59.00
And a lot of times even
after that other state time
00:24:59.03\00:25:03.68
I went out and I always had
been using drugs up to 1984.
00:25:03.71\00:25:10.82
And I used heroin.
00:25:10.85\00:25:12.37
I'd been a heroin addict three
different times in my life.
00:25:12.40\00:25:15.34
And the crack thing was
kind of just starting there
00:25:15.37\00:25:20.95
in the early 80s, mid 80s.
00:25:20.98\00:25:22.94
And I, you know,
did a bunch of that.
00:25:22.97\00:25:24.69
I was
experiencing with all that.
00:25:24.72\00:25:26.63
That really
increases violence like crazy.
00:25:26.66\00:25:29.28
Yeah, because you got to
keep it, you got to have it.
00:25:29.31\00:25:31.43
You know, with heroin,
if you hit a nice lick,
00:25:31.46\00:25:34.09
you get a squirt,
you're good for 10-12 hours
00:25:34.12\00:25:36.27
if you get straight.
00:25:36.30\00:25:37.67
But then you got to
go out and do something.
00:25:37.70\00:25:39.17
But with the crack, you got to
continuously be getting money.
00:25:39.20\00:25:42.41
And I was doing all that,I mean.
00:25:42.44\00:25:44.26
So in '84, I went
back in the jail there
00:25:44.29\00:25:50.45
and I was in the county
jail and I was thinking,
00:25:50.48\00:25:54.16
"Man, why am I doing this?
00:25:54.19\00:25:55.97
Why am I doing this
stuff, living like this,
00:25:56.00\00:25:59.59
to buy these guys Cadillacs
and let them live these lives
00:25:59.62\00:26:02.70
and I'm being
manipulated here?" Right.
00:26:02.73\00:26:05.21
"I'm the fool here.
00:26:05.24\00:26:06.72
I'm the sucker."
'Cause you're not the one
00:26:06.75\00:26:08.12
that's making the money.
00:26:08.15\00:26:09.52
You're just running the
trials and staying--Right.
00:26:09.55\00:26:10.92
I'm jeopardizing
my life and liberty,
00:26:10.95\00:26:12.51
so this dude can
drive a Cadillac.
00:26:12.54\00:26:15.11
So that's where I had
a turning point in 1984
00:26:15.14\00:26:19.88
and I smoked
cigarettes and all so.
00:26:19.91\00:26:21.91
And I kind of
just let it all go.
00:26:21.94\00:26:24.02
I let the cigarettes go.
00:26:24.05\00:26:25.43
I let the drugs go.
00:26:25.46\00:26:27.05
At this time, you're in prison?
00:26:27.08\00:26:29.50
In jail. Deciding to
do some sort of recovery.
00:26:29.53\00:26:34.15
On my own. Yeah.
00:26:34.18\00:26:35.55
I thought, I said," I got this.
00:26:35.58\00:26:36.95
I'm being the sucker here.
00:26:36.98\00:26:38.35
And I said this is--I'm
no longer gonna be this way."
00:26:38.38\00:26:40.67
I'm clean enough.
00:26:40.70\00:26:42.10
And, you know, I mean,
00:26:42.13\00:26:43.50
I didn't say I was
never gonna mess with drugs
00:26:43.53\00:26:45.06
because later on then
I decided to be the guy.
00:26:45.09\00:26:47.91
I wanted to be
the one dealing it.
00:26:47.94\00:26:49.72
I wanted to be the one making--
00:26:49.75\00:26:51.14
I wanted to drive the Cadillac.
00:26:51.17\00:26:52.54
The Cadillac,
right, which I did.
00:26:52.57\00:26:55.15
I wound up getting after
this time and I wasn't using.
00:26:55.18\00:26:59.03
I didn't use cocaine or heroin
or anything like that till 1999,
00:26:59.06\00:27:05.41
right before I went back
into federal prison again.
00:27:05.44\00:27:07.81
And at that point of my life
00:27:07.84\00:27:09.51
I said, "Well, I
got enough money.
00:27:09.54\00:27:11.68
I'm not gonna be able
to spend all my money.
00:27:11.71\00:27:13.61
I'm not gonna be able to--
00:27:13.64\00:27:15.01
You're very
successful in dealing?
00:27:15.04\00:27:17.24
Yeah, very
successful and I wound up
00:27:17.27\00:27:19.17
starting some other
legitimate businesses.
00:27:19.20\00:27:21.89
I had a tattoo shop.
00:27:21.92\00:27:23.29
I had a night club.
00:27:23.32\00:27:24.71
I was invested in
some bars with different--
00:27:24.74\00:27:28.16
And what I like about
you saying that, Casey,
00:27:28.19\00:27:30.37
is that a lot of
addicts are very bright.
00:27:30.40\00:27:35.10
And with your addiction,
like I'm listening to you,
00:27:35.13\00:27:38.40
your addiction was
the anger and the power.
00:27:38.43\00:27:41.52
The drugs kind of
tripped you up a lot. Yep.
00:27:41.55\00:27:44.94
But during that
time that you didn't use,
00:27:44.97\00:27:46.68
that anger and power drove
you to be pretty successful.
00:27:46.71\00:27:49.72
I always thought that
before if I would use this,
00:27:49.75\00:27:52.74
this motivating force that was
motivating me to stealing stuff
00:27:52.77\00:27:58.26
for crime, if I used
it in a positive way,
00:27:58.29\00:28:02.08
there would be no limit to
what I could possibly do. Right.
00:28:02.11\00:28:04.95
I was involved in retail fraud
00:28:04.98\00:28:07.68
where I would go in these stores
00:28:07.71\00:28:09.81
and take the garments
into the fitting room,
00:28:09.84\00:28:13.03
take the labels out,
sow them into other garments
00:28:13.06\00:28:16.12
with the price tag
in it in used clothing
00:28:16.15\00:28:18.63
that I would get at a resale
shop and return these items.
00:28:18.66\00:28:22.29
So the thing which you
would be running around all day
00:28:22.32\00:28:26.17
doing these
different hustles, I mean,
00:28:26.20\00:28:28.17
I made a lot of money doing
it but I wasted it all on drugs.
00:28:28.20\00:28:31.82
Right. But once I
decided not to use the drugs
00:28:31.85\00:28:35.53
and my focus was still hustle,
00:28:35.56\00:28:39.02
I made extremely large
amounts of money. Right, right.
00:28:39.05\00:28:42.90
And my life completely
changed in that aspect.
00:28:42.93\00:28:45.78
Then you started using again
00:28:45.81\00:28:47.18
and ended up back in prison?
00:28:47.21\00:28:48.58
Well, I was already
going back in prison in 1990
00:28:48.61\00:28:52.01
for a federal gun
charge where I was involved
00:28:52.04\00:28:56.13
with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club
00:28:56.16\00:28:59.15
and I came to
this through prison.
00:28:59.18\00:29:02.21
You know, meeting some
of these guys in prison
00:29:02.24\00:29:04.50
and they had a certain
air about them, you know,
00:29:04.53\00:29:08.24
there's a hierarchy in
the prison, so to speak,
00:29:08.27\00:29:11.46
if you're a famous criminal,
you're more famous on the yard.
00:29:11.49\00:29:16.05
Guys are gonna cater to
you, if you're, you know,
00:29:16.08\00:29:19.44
could be an Italian
guy that's affiliated
00:29:19.47\00:29:21.73
with what our
society calls the mafia,
00:29:21.76\00:29:24.19
those guys get
treated different in prison.
00:29:24.22\00:29:27.07
Not to say I was
being treated wrong,
00:29:27.10\00:29:29.22
but naturally you
want the maximum--
00:29:29.25\00:29:32.83
Respect. Respect. Right.
00:29:32.86\00:29:34.69
So I got involved
with the motorcycle club
00:29:34.72\00:29:38.06
and there's a lot of motorcycle
clubs in our societies.
00:29:38.09\00:29:43.62
But these guys
were one percenter club
00:29:43.65\00:29:46.04
and it's not just
a motorcycle club.
00:29:46.07\00:29:49.05
It was a sub-culture.
00:29:49.08\00:29:50.45
It was a way of
living, way of life
00:29:50.48\00:29:53.05
so I didn't go
through the minor leagues.
00:29:53.08\00:29:56.44
I had to go right to
one of the bigger clubs
00:29:56.47\00:29:59.16
and a lot of guys don't
do it that way, but I did.
00:29:59.19\00:30:02.26
And that led me.
00:30:02.29\00:30:06.33
I'll be honest,
the motorcycle club
00:30:06.36\00:30:08.76
helped me in some
ways by calming me down
00:30:08.79\00:30:13.32
in my reaction time to things
and there's a rule in the club--
00:30:13.35\00:30:18.88
'Cause you do educate yourself
00:30:18.91\00:30:20.94
in that
businesses or selling drugs.
00:30:20.97\00:30:22.95
There's a lot of
monies that go back and forth
00:30:22.98\00:30:25.08
and so it cannot be just
idiots that are in the clubs.
00:30:25.11\00:30:28.33
You have people that really
do know what they are doing.
00:30:28.36\00:30:32.68
And like you are saying
that you get almost training
00:30:32.71\00:30:35.77
that if you just
fly off the handle
00:30:35.80\00:30:37.47
it may not be the smartest
thing in this situation.
00:30:37.50\00:30:39.46
You're gonna wind up in jail.
00:30:39.49\00:30:40.86
You're gonna
wind up back in jail.
00:30:40.89\00:30:42.26
So we need you here. Yeah.
00:30:42.29\00:30:43.66
So don't react like this--
Cause you know even--right.
00:30:43.69\00:30:45.06
Don't react like that.
00:30:45.09\00:30:46.78
There's no needle laws.
00:30:46.81\00:30:48.86
There's no heroin laws.
00:30:48.89\00:30:50.26
There's no crack laws.
00:30:50.29\00:30:51.66
You can't deal
it. You can't sell it.
00:30:51.69\00:30:53.06
You can't use it.
00:30:53.09\00:30:54.46
So they helped me in a
way, I'll give them that.
00:30:54.49\00:30:57.24
They helped me in
a way, like you said,
00:30:57.27\00:31:00.02
to be out for a while. Right.
00:31:00.05\00:31:02.31
And try to get
myself calmed down.
00:31:02.34\00:31:05.09
The longest I stayed
in the streets was 7 years
00:31:05.12\00:31:09.21
was while I was
with the motorcycle club.
00:31:09.24\00:31:11.65
Other than that, I probably
00:31:11.68\00:31:13.05
would've never lasted
in the streets that long.
00:31:13.08\00:31:14.72
So, you know,
because of time constraints,
00:31:14.75\00:31:17.76
I would really
like to know, where did,
00:31:17.79\00:31:21.85
when did it start
and how did it start
00:31:21.88\00:31:24.17
where you decided or God
decided that enough is enough?
00:31:24.20\00:31:28.89
Where you end up
coming into a place
00:31:28.92\00:31:31.43
where you're gonna
turn things around?
00:31:31.46\00:31:33.18
And what I love about, you know,
00:31:33.21\00:31:34.90
the first part of
the teaching thing,
00:31:34.93\00:31:36.85
I talked about, you
know, getting on a tricycle,
00:31:36.88\00:31:39.12
you're going
from a Harley Davidson
00:31:39.15\00:31:40.54
to a tricycle and
so, how do you do that?
00:31:40.57\00:31:43.25
And what did that look like?
00:31:43.28\00:31:48.20
What changed me I was in
federal prison at that time
00:31:48.23\00:31:52.98
and I had a friend
that kept promoting me
00:31:53.01\00:31:56.07
to go to the chapel. Mm-hmm.
00:31:56.10\00:31:58.27
And I said, "I'm not
going to the chapel."
00:31:58.30\00:32:01.20
The chapel was
for, to me, in my mind,
00:32:01.23\00:32:05.45
the chapel was
for sex offenders,
00:32:05.48\00:32:07.72
pedophiles and
snitchers and informants--
00:32:07.75\00:32:11.07
And a lot of
people think that inside.
00:32:11.10\00:32:13.55
And I don't think
that I've ever heard anyone
00:32:13.58\00:32:15.68
actually say it
other than, you know,
00:32:15.71\00:32:17.64
people that I know
but in their mind, man,
00:32:17.67\00:32:21.50
that is for a
whole another thing.
00:32:21.53\00:32:23.99
That's the way I looked at it.
00:32:24.02\00:32:26.16
That's what I always
looked at it that way.
00:32:26.19\00:32:28.13
So I said, "I'm not
going to the chapel.
00:32:28.16\00:32:30.28
Even if I did want
to learn about the Bible
00:32:30.31\00:32:33.08
or learn about Jesus,
learn about any of it,
00:32:33.11\00:32:35.16
I'm not doing it over there
in a chapel with those guys."
00:32:35.19\00:32:38.37
So I'm sure these
people were praying for me.
00:32:38.40\00:32:43.64
I'm sure she was and I continued
on and then after 9/11 happened,
00:32:43.67\00:32:49.31
I was thinking what
would possess somebody
00:32:49.34\00:32:52.16
to do something like
this and they were saying
00:32:52.19\00:32:54.83
it was for their god.
00:32:54.86\00:32:56.23
What would possess this?
00:32:56.26\00:32:57.63
And I started
studying a little bit
00:32:57.66\00:32:59.91
and I had a Palestinian guy.
00:32:59.94\00:33:04.23
He was considered a terrorist
and he started talking to me.
00:33:04.26\00:33:10.31
He's seeing this
behavior in me of the anger,
00:33:10.34\00:33:14.33
bitterness, all
these traits that the Lord
00:33:14.36\00:33:18.25
has helped remove from me.
00:33:18.28\00:33:20.14
He's seeing this behavior in me
00:33:20.17\00:33:22.16
and was trying to
enthuse me into Islam. Right.
00:33:22.19\00:33:26.04
'Cause that would be
really good for sure.
00:33:26.07\00:33:29.55
Well, for his mindset. Yeah.
00:33:29.58\00:33:31.63
I'm not saying he's the
representative of Islam,
00:33:31.66\00:33:34.00
but for his mindset, we did
agree about a lot of things.
00:33:34.03\00:33:38.83
We did--I did like the guy.
00:33:38.86\00:33:41.01
We could sit and
talk and communicate
00:33:41.04\00:33:42.71
and I did like the guy.
00:33:42.74\00:33:44.45
So I started studying
and I was studying the Bible
00:33:44.48\00:33:47.64
and little by
little things started.
00:33:47.67\00:33:52.12
You know, I started questioning
00:33:52.15\00:33:53.54
some things and studying
00:33:53.57\00:33:56.04
a little bit and
reading more and more
00:33:56.07\00:33:59.70
and it started making
sense. I love that about God.
00:33:59.73\00:34:02.40
Yeah. I love the
fact that, you know--
00:34:02.43\00:34:04.04
But the Bible
confirms it that, you know,
00:34:04.07\00:34:06.98
reading the word
and hearing the word,
00:34:07.01\00:34:08.39
you know, that's
how our faith grows.
00:34:08.42\00:34:10.12
Exactly. And our heart changes
00:34:10.15\00:34:11.83
and that hardness starts
to kind of breakdown some.
00:34:11.86\00:34:15.89
But, you know, I can see you,
00:34:15.92\00:34:17.29
you know, in there
and all the sudden,
00:34:17.32\00:34:19.52
you know, the Holy Spirit
00:34:19.55\00:34:20.92
just being able to get
through even a little bit.
00:34:20.95\00:34:24.09
That's amazing.
00:34:24.12\00:34:25.49
Well, for a long time and once
I did start going to the chapel,
00:34:25.52\00:34:28.36
I wouldn't let nobody see
me in the yard with a Bible.
00:34:28.39\00:34:31.16
I was no way
gonna be walking across
00:34:31.19\00:34:33.94
the yard with a Bible.
00:34:33.97\00:34:35.34
So I was kind of trying to do
it secretly and keep it quiet.
00:34:35.37\00:34:39.65
During that time
when you said a prayer,
00:34:39.68\00:34:44.55
did you feel
that presence of God?
00:34:44.58\00:34:47.10
Did you feel that God was with
you paying attention to you?
00:34:47.13\00:34:51.15
Did you feel that yet?
00:34:51.18\00:34:55.16
Well, looking
back, I'm gonna say
00:34:55.19\00:34:58.74
I felt it at
different points in my life.
00:34:58.77\00:35:03.40
One time I was in
a, called a dope house,
00:35:03.43\00:35:07.30
a shoot place where
everybody's shooting dope
00:35:07.33\00:35:10.57
and I was a heroin
addict to the extent
00:35:10.60\00:35:13.46
that the veins are--I don't
have veins in my arms no more.
00:35:13.49\00:35:16.43
I mean, I was using
the needles in my groin
00:35:16.46\00:35:19.46
to 'cause you got the
big arteries and veins
00:35:19.49\00:35:22.54
through the center of your body.
00:35:22.57\00:35:24.77
And I was sitting
there and I put a needle in
00:35:24.80\00:35:28.00
and I was just
injecting the drugs
00:35:28.03\00:35:29.63
in and I thought to myself,
00:35:29.66\00:35:32.13
just in my mind,
"Lord, this has got to stop.
00:35:32.16\00:35:35.78
This has got to stop."
00:35:35.81\00:35:37.94
And I got
arrested that afternoon.
00:35:37.97\00:35:40.25
And that was in '84.
00:35:40.28\00:35:42.15
Now all my life, I
believed that the Bible
00:35:42.18\00:35:45.98
was the word of God.
00:35:46.01\00:35:47.45
I mean, a few of
the ever, I remember--
00:35:47.48\00:35:48.91
That there was a God.
00:35:48.94\00:35:50.36
Yeah, I believed that.
00:35:50.39\00:35:51.76
I believed it, just,
you know, if somebody said,
00:35:51.79\00:35:53.59
"Hey, do you know
Jesus died for your sins?"
00:35:53.62\00:35:55.29
I'd say, "Sure.
00:35:55.32\00:35:56.69
Who don't know it?"
00:35:56.72\00:35:58.09
I mean, I always
believed it was the word of God.
00:35:58.12\00:35:59.49
I was always taught it was.
00:35:59.52\00:36:01.52
But I didn't have a faith in it.
00:36:01.55\00:36:03.53
I didn't have-- I
didn't understand it
00:36:03.56\00:36:07.66
and I didn't have a faith in it.
00:36:07.69\00:36:09.06
I believed it to
be true as, you know,
00:36:09.09\00:36:10.98
intellectual thought,
just as much as you believed,
00:36:11.01\00:36:14.68
you know, George Washington
was the First President,
00:36:14.71\00:36:16.48
but I didn't have faith in it.
00:36:16.51\00:36:18.80
So that belief
that I had had no power
00:36:18.83\00:36:23.03
to transform or change my life.
00:36:23.06\00:36:25.66
So as you're now
opening up the word of God
00:36:25.69\00:36:27.55
and looking at that, ending up
00:36:27.58\00:36:29.53
in chapel is you're
starting to have faith in it.
00:36:29.56\00:36:34.01
Yes, little by
little, I started learning.
00:36:34.04\00:36:39.52
I've learned this if you
don't know the scriptures,
00:36:39.55\00:36:43.44
how can I apply them?
00:36:43.47\00:36:45.20
If I go to my mind and I'm
trying to resource information
00:36:45.23\00:36:49.70
on how to deal with a situation,
and all I have is from
00:36:49.73\00:36:53.58
the circumstance s of my life,
in the shoes I've walked in,
00:36:53.61\00:36:57.53
then that's only answer
I can solve this problem
00:36:57.56\00:37:00.25
is through what I've learnt.
00:37:00.28\00:37:01.79
And this is violence or drama.
00:37:01.82\00:37:06.00
So this is the only way I
could resource information
00:37:06.03\00:37:08.71
that I had to get it from.
00:37:08.74\00:37:10.25
By learning the scriptures,
I've come to an understanding
00:37:10.28\00:37:14.15
that now I have another,
so to speak, like a computer,
00:37:14.18\00:37:17.55
a databank to
search out and come up
00:37:17.58\00:37:21.67
with a proper
solution to the problem I have.
00:37:21.70\00:37:25.18
So I've learned by
studying the scriptures
00:37:25.21\00:37:29.60
and I studied
extensively in prison.
00:37:29.63\00:37:32.26
After I went in, in
'99 for years, years,
00:37:32.29\00:37:35.98
studied extensively
to get a understanding
00:37:36.01\00:37:39.02
because anything I do, I
have to do it to the maximum.
00:37:39.05\00:37:42.20
I can't half step it.
00:37:42.23\00:37:44.05
So I didn't want to,
say, walk around a prison,
00:37:44.08\00:37:47.41
you know, say, "Hey,
I am a Christian now."
00:37:47.44\00:37:49.74
You know, I had, you know,
00:37:49.77\00:37:51.14
if guys--I didn't have
a spiritual guide in it,
00:37:51.17\00:37:53.38
but if guys
would ask me questions,
00:37:53.41\00:37:55.87
other guys that were professing
to be Christians in there,
00:37:55.90\00:37:58.87
I had to know it.
00:37:58.90\00:38:00.54
I had to be able to answer it.
00:38:00.57\00:38:01.94
I didn't have
nothing I could go to other
00:38:01.97\00:38:03.34
than go back to my
cell, get on my knees,
00:38:03.37\00:38:06.30
pray for the Lord to
give me an understanding
00:38:06.33\00:38:08.63
of these
scriptures and check the word.
00:38:08.66\00:38:12.93
I bought every kind of book.
00:38:12.96\00:38:14.84
I could get a
Bible encyclopedias,
00:38:14.87\00:38:17.35
Bible dictionaries,
Greek, Hebrew dictionaries.
00:38:17.38\00:38:20.27
I bought every type
of book I could get,
00:38:20.30\00:38:22.79
so I could get a good
understanding of the scriptures
00:38:22.82\00:38:27.25
because I had to be able to know
00:38:27.28\00:38:31.05
if somebody was trying to
throw me something sideways,
00:38:31.08\00:38:35.44
I had to be able
to know to catch it.
00:38:35.47\00:38:37.42
Right. And your only
hope for change was here.
00:38:37.45\00:38:40.43
Well, at the time,
even in the beginning,
00:38:40.46\00:38:43.71
I didn't know if it
would be a change. Okay.
00:38:43.74\00:38:46.19
I was just studying,
00:38:46.22\00:38:47.59
but I learnt that there is
power there to change a person,
00:38:47.62\00:38:51.85
to change the way we think--
00:38:51.88\00:38:53.63
Then when did you study--
Renewing of the mind--Yeah.
00:38:53.66\00:38:55.38
When did you start getting that?
00:38:55.41\00:38:56.78
That "Hey, I'm studying
just to not get tripped up
00:38:56.81\00:39:00.06
and yet I am changing."
00:39:00.09\00:39:02.64
When did you get that sense?
00:39:02.67\00:39:04.37
'Cause that's an exciting thing
to know is that God just says,
00:39:04.40\00:39:07.99
you know what, I
actually want to bring
00:39:08.02\00:39:10.66
you into a place of healing.
00:39:10.69\00:39:12.49
Well, it's like anything we
do weightlifting or weight loss,
00:39:12.52\00:39:16.34
other people are gonna notice
00:39:16.37\00:39:17.79
it before you
notice it yourself. Yes.
00:39:17.82\00:39:19.26
You're gonna look at
the mirror yourself and say,
00:39:19.29\00:39:20.84
"Man, I'm not losing my weight.
00:39:20.87\00:39:22.24
I'm not getting bigger,
you know, lifting weights."
00:39:22.27\00:39:23.71
Yeah. But other people say,
00:39:23.74\00:39:25.81
"Man, big dog, you're
like, you're building up.
00:39:25.84\00:39:27.89
You're pumping up a little bit."
00:39:27.92\00:39:29.29
"Oh, really. Okay."
00:39:29.32\00:39:30.69
Well, it was the same
thing with me with the Bible
00:39:30.72\00:39:32.21
where I had guys
in prison saying,
00:39:32.24\00:39:34.91
"Man, you're changing, man.
00:39:34.94\00:39:37.22
You used to be funny.
00:39:37.25\00:39:38.77
You used to be fun.
00:39:38.80\00:39:40.17
Come on, big dog."
00:39:40.20\00:39:41.57
But the fun that I'm
not saying being a Christian
00:39:41.60\00:39:43.39
is not fun, but when people
00:39:43.42\00:39:45.10
just want to constantly
dwell on profanity and--
00:39:45.13\00:39:49.74
The twisted stuff.
00:39:49.77\00:39:51.14
Yeah, that to them,
that's their reasoning for fun,
00:39:51.17\00:39:55.81
then that's where
they're messed up.
00:39:55.84\00:39:57.68
I exactly went to
Chicago one time to be there
00:39:57.71\00:40:00.64
and see the Jerry Springer
Show because I liked it so much.
00:40:00.67\00:40:03.66
I said, "I got to
go there and see it."
00:40:03.69\00:40:05.06
And I actually
went there and did it.
00:40:05.09\00:40:06.78
You can't pay me to
watch Jerry Springer today.
00:40:06.81\00:40:09.38
So I was--those type of
things where I used to think
00:40:09.41\00:40:13.67
was cool or funny is not where
I'm struggling today saying,
00:40:13.70\00:40:17.89
uh, boy, I'd
really like to do this.
00:40:17.92\00:40:20.44
I'd really like to do this.
00:40:20.47\00:40:21.84
But that what used to be fun,
00:40:21.87\00:40:23.30
it's not doing that
because through the Holy Spirit
00:40:23.33\00:40:26.09
once that inner
transformation changes,
00:40:26.12\00:40:29.32
when the change is there,
it's gonna bring our outward
00:40:29.35\00:40:33.80
actions into
harmony with the Holy Spirit
00:40:33.83\00:40:35.92
but once that
change has been complete,
00:40:35.95\00:40:38.35
I'm not missing this.
00:40:38.38\00:40:40.19
I love that. I'm
not interested in this.
00:40:40.22\00:40:41.94
We're gonna stop right there.
00:40:41.97\00:40:43.85
I'm gonna go on a break
and I want to come back.
00:40:43.88\00:40:45.84
We're gonna
close out the program,
00:40:45.87\00:40:47.77
but I want to ask
you a few more things.
00:40:47.80\00:40:50.79
So, you know, I hope you
heard what he was saying is,
00:40:50.82\00:40:54.54
it didn't even start to
really look to change his life.
00:40:54.57\00:40:57.88
He just looked to get educated
to what does the word say?
00:40:57.91\00:41:01.26
To put some more information
in and all the sudden
00:41:01.29\00:41:04.34
he realized that,
"Hey, are you changing me?"
00:41:04.37\00:41:07.61
And everything in
your life changes,
00:41:07.64\00:41:09.88
but I want to hear a
little bit more about that,
00:41:09.91\00:41:12.02
so we're gonna be
right back. Stay with us.
00:41:12.05\00:41:14.77