Welcome to
Celebrating Life in Recovery!
00:00:10.11\00:00:12.12
I'm Cheri Your host.
00:00:12.15\00:00:13.36
Sometimes in our recovery
we start focusing so much on
00:00:13.39\00:00:16.91
ourselves that we forget there
are people all around us that
00:00:16.94\00:00:20.62
need our support and today we
are going to cover some of that.
00:00:20.65\00:00:22.83
So come in and join
as you'll be blessed.
00:00:22.86\00:00:24.82
Welcome back!
00:00:52.43\00:00:53.46
You know it's funny because
I meet a ton of people when
00:00:53.49\00:00:57.05
we travel all over the
world not just in this country.
00:00:57.08\00:01:00.66
Every time I meet somebody
in Ministry, somebody that is
00:01:00.69\00:01:04.38
doing Pastoral work, or
something that is blessing other
00:01:04.41\00:01:08.05
folks when everything gets
quiet and we are just sitting
00:01:08.08\00:01:10.82
and hanging out
and hear their stories.
00:01:10.85\00:01:12.62
I think, oh man,
we should tell that!
00:01:12.65\00:01:15.69
So this program we
are going to tell that.
00:01:15.72\00:01:18.58
We are owing to look at
one person's journey with
00:01:18.61\00:01:21.21
Christ and how God stood
them up from all this junk
00:01:21.24\00:01:25.39
and now they are blessing
and setting other people up.
00:01:25.42\00:01:28.36
I'm just blessed by the stories.
00:01:28.39\00:01:31.12
So going to introduce you
to my friend Pastor Ken and
00:01:31.15\00:01:33.74
Sherry, want to say
first of all thank you for
00:01:33.77\00:01:36.09
being on the program.
00:01:36.12\00:01:37.22
Cheri thank you for
letting us come, I know it's a
00:01:37.25\00:01:40.36
privilege, my wife didn't
realize she was going to part
00:01:40.39\00:01:42.88
of this thing so, but
I know she will do well.
00:01:42.91\00:01:45.43
As being a Pastor I
look back at the beginning
00:01:45.46\00:01:49.77
of my life in think wow
how did end up here from
00:01:49.80\00:01:52.35
where I use to be? - Exactly!
00:01:52.38\00:01:54.04
My mother when I was
little divorced my father just
00:01:54.07\00:01:58.15
within a couple
weeks after I was born.
00:01:58.18\00:02:00.32
I had an older
brother 2 years older
00:02:00.35\00:02:02.09
than me and I guess
that he just didn't want the
00:02:02.12\00:02:05.80
responsibility of us.
00:02:05.83\00:02:07.40
As I was growing up, not
long after that my mother
00:02:07.43\00:02:11.44
became a Christian.
00:02:11.47\00:02:12.63
Someone came knocking
on the door of the house
00:02:12.66\00:02:15.17
selling books and she
started doing Bible studies.
00:02:15.20\00:02:19.23
As a result of those
Bible studies she fell in love
00:02:19.26\00:02:22.11
with God and wanted me to
have a Christian education.
00:02:22.14\00:02:26.30
And as I was
growing up she made a point,
00:02:26.33\00:02:29.53
a single mom most of
the time, she had a couple
00:02:29.56\00:02:33.30
of the marriages, I say
that, but most of the time,
00:02:33.33\00:02:35.95
she was single and worked hard.
00:02:35.98\00:02:37.96
And she wanted me to have
an opportunity to learn about
00:02:37.99\00:02:41.16
the Lord and go to school.
00:02:41.19\00:02:42.38
So she worked hard in that
aspect of things and I know
00:02:42.41\00:02:46.14
the Bible says, to
train up a child in the way he
00:02:46.17\00:02:48.34
should go, or she should
go, and when that child gets
00:02:48.37\00:02:51.07
older they will go
back to their roots.
00:02:51.10\00:02:53.73
I look at myself, my
older brother started to get
00:02:53.76\00:02:58.96
in trouble and get
messed up, and I always
00:02:58.99\00:03:01.31
looked up to him.
00:03:01.34\00:03:02.37
And I think my testimony
is really big on forgiveness,
00:03:02.40\00:03:05.18
on prayer, and on
influences, because my brother.
00:03:05.21\00:03:08.44
Well you know we
all have influences,
00:03:08.47\00:03:10.68
whether it's a big sister
or big brother or a friend that
00:03:10.71\00:03:12.64
just makes a big impact
and we want to be like them.
00:03:12.67\00:03:15.63
My brother always seemed
to start getting into trouble.
00:03:15.66\00:03:19.75
I remember, I was told
by one of my aunt's that
00:03:19.78\00:03:22.45
I had met my father
once, because I never had
00:03:22.48\00:03:24.69
any kind of relationship...
00:03:24.72\00:03:25.75
- how old were you?
00:03:25.78\00:03:26.99
How old was I when I
met him the first time?
00:03:27.02\00:03:29.44
I don't remember the story
and that is odd how in recovery
00:03:29.47\00:03:32.15
we forget a lot of things.
00:03:32.18\00:03:34.68
But my aunt told me
that, I believe I was 6 years
00:03:34.71\00:03:40.13
old at the time that
at a funeral I was told
00:03:40.16\00:03:43.79
there is your dad.
00:03:43.82\00:03:44.85
And I walked over to the
car to talk to him and he
00:03:44.88\00:03:47.50
rolled up the window
and turned his face from me,
00:03:47.53\00:03:49.70
he wouldn't talk to me.
00:03:49.73\00:03:50.94
I think I
must've blocked that out.
00:03:50.97\00:03:52.73
There's things in our
life and our past, I really
00:03:52.76\00:03:56.92
can't say that I grew
up in an abusive home.
00:03:56.95\00:03:59.85
- but I can't even imagine
that as a little boy saying
00:03:59.88\00:04:02.37
you know what, knowing full
well that you don't want me.
00:04:02.40\00:04:08.06
That kind of turning away
from you and rolling up the
00:04:08.09\00:04:10.84
window the pain that
that must have caused you as a
00:04:10.87\00:04:14.52
little boy even
though you don't remember it,
00:04:14.55\00:04:15.97
I bet was significant.
00:04:16.00\00:04:17.44
You know I met my
father later, I think my son
00:04:17.47\00:04:21.08
was 8 and I was
30-something then, or about 30.
00:04:21.11\00:04:27.23
We never became close, he
was a nice guy, nice to know
00:04:27.26\00:04:34.34
and visit but we never had
a father - son relationship.
00:04:34.37\00:04:38.75
We had our grandparents
and they were big in my life.
00:04:38.78\00:04:42.91
But my brother, I have to
get back to him, he was the
00:04:42.94\00:04:46.04
big influence and I watched
him and he got in trouble.
00:04:46.07\00:04:49.04
I remember in the church
school that we went to, they
00:04:49.07\00:04:51.78
couldn't handle him so
they sent him to a dude ranch.
00:04:51.81\00:04:54.92
He was gone all most 2
years I think to that and it
00:04:54.95\00:05:00.18
really hurt me.
00:05:00.21\00:05:01.37
But when he came back, in
his being gone he picked up
00:05:01.40\00:05:04.13
all these bad habits and things.
00:05:04.16\00:05:06.30
As he went the wrong direction,
into the path of drugs
00:05:06.33\00:05:12.07
and everything -
drinking and partying.
00:05:12.10\00:05:14.53
Yes, you know I grew up in
a very conservative home and
00:05:14.56\00:05:19.40
everything in this my church
life was you can't do this,
00:05:19.43\00:05:22.96
you can't eat this, you
can't do this, listen to this,
00:05:22.99\00:05:25.99
and it was a rebellion thing.
00:05:26.02\00:05:27.94
He rebelled and as a
result of that I rebelled.
00:05:27.97\00:05:30.08
In his getting into trouble
he got hit really heavy into
00:05:30.11\00:05:36.17
Meth, not so much Meth
back then, it was more the form
00:05:36.20\00:05:41.38
of a pharmaceutical drug.
00:05:41.41\00:05:42.44
It was a drug
called, the Disoxin that was
00:05:42.47\00:05:44.97
easily burglarized
in the drugstores and
00:05:45.00\00:05:48.71
he got into doing that.
00:05:48.74\00:05:50.06
- that's so funny because a
normal person, it is easy to
00:05:50.09\00:05:53.86
get it, he just had
to break in and steal.
00:05:53.89\00:05:55.82
And you said it was so easy
because that's how we do it.
00:05:55.85\00:06:00.57
Whenever I hear somebody
say it like that I just, it
00:06:00.60\00:06:06.47
just cracks me up we don't
even realize how abnormal it
00:06:06.50\00:06:09.65
is, yea just
break into the store.
00:06:09.68\00:06:12.11
My brother had left Utah
where I grew up and I was
00:06:12.14\00:06:17.42
already rebellion from my
mom and went to the 8th grade.
00:06:17.45\00:06:21.12
I have been sent away to
some schools, a boarding school
00:06:21.15\00:06:26.52
and I would run away from those.
00:06:26.55\00:06:27.88
I ended up run away, I
was 15 years old, and I ran
00:06:27.91\00:06:31.97
away from home and I was
going to head to San Francisco
00:06:32.00\00:06:35.39
this was in the
late 60's early 70 time.
00:06:35.42\00:06:38.60
My brother had been there
back in Haight Ashbury and
00:06:38.63\00:06:43.37
Woodstock days, and
the flower child days.
00:06:43.40\00:06:44.66
It ended up me and a
friend of mine were hitchhiking.
00:06:44.69\00:06:47.84
We got to Ely Nevada,
if you've never been to Ely
00:06:47.87\00:06:52.00
it's a crossroad that is
out in the middle of nowhere.
00:06:52.03\00:06:53.83
We were hitchhiking
trying to get a ride and it got
00:06:53.86\00:06:58.33
to the point we said I
don't care where we go,
00:06:58.36\00:07:00.29
if they're going
towards Vegas will go that way,
00:07:00.32\00:07:02.00
if they are going the other
way, we'll go that way because
00:07:02.03\00:07:04.41
we just wanted to go somewhere.
00:07:04.44\00:07:05.73
I ended up, me and my
friend, we went on a ride
00:07:05.76\00:07:10.50
through Vegas and ended
up Hollywood California.
00:07:10.53\00:07:12.97
Here I am 15, and at that
time was one of the cesspools
00:07:13.00\00:07:17.95
of the country, even then.
00:07:17.98\00:07:19.54
All the strip clubs
and everything around.
00:07:19.57\00:07:22.22
I remember meeting
some street preachers there,
00:07:22.25\00:07:25.45
I say this in my testimony early
on, because God protects us.
00:07:25.48\00:07:30.77
I had a mother praying for me,
00:07:30.80\00:07:32.06
I had a church praying for me.
00:07:32.09\00:07:33.70
He was called up Tony
and Susan Alamo Christian
00:07:33.73\00:07:37.68
Foundation, they were
on Crescent Heights Blvd,
00:07:37.71\00:07:39.98
right off of Hollywood
Boulevard in Hollywood.
00:07:40.01\00:07:42.70
I no sooner got there
and they were preaching this
00:07:42.73\00:07:46.01
hellfire, and everything
that was going to happen,
00:07:46.04\00:07:48.06
and scared people into
heaven, and they got me
00:07:48.09\00:07:49.75
into their church.
00:07:49.78\00:07:50.96
In fact this Bible I
have right here today,
00:07:50.99\00:07:53.97
they purchased for me,
somehow they had got all my
00:07:54.00\00:07:56.58
money in the offerings and
I ended up with this Bible.
00:07:56.61\00:07:59.67
I was kind of brainwashed,
and I was out preaching to
00:07:59.70\00:08:04.38
people you're
going to go to hellfire
00:08:04.41\00:08:05.87
if you don't get the Lord.
00:08:05.90\00:08:07.30
I believe that
someday that may happen,
00:08:07.33\00:08:10.28
but I don't believe that
happens when people die now,
00:08:10.31\00:08:14.13
that you go to hell.
00:08:14.16\00:08:15.21
In that time God
protected me there,
00:08:15.24\00:08:19.61
a very Pentecostal place.
00:08:19.64\00:08:20.90
I left, and made a phone
call back to Utah to my mom,
00:08:20.93\00:08:26.68
and that was a mistake.
00:08:26.71\00:08:27.74
The next thing I knew
police was everywhere,
00:08:27.77\00:08:29.06
they raided this place
and took me back to Utah.
00:08:29.09\00:08:33.09
I had to go in the
youth home for while and I was
00:08:33.12\00:08:37.47
preaching about Jesus and
hellfire and everything to
00:08:37.50\00:08:41.21
people, but it didn't
take long for that to go away.
00:08:41.24\00:08:43.71
It was after this
and I got really serious
00:08:43.74\00:08:46.42
into the drug thing.
00:08:46.45\00:08:47.52
We talk about
smoking marijuana and things
00:08:47.55\00:08:51.38
are really the
entry level into drugs.
00:08:51.41\00:08:54.97
I got right into
burglarizing the drugstores.
00:08:55.00\00:09:01.39
My brother talked me
into going into this drugstore
00:09:01.42\00:09:06.42
and hiding in the basement.
00:09:06.45\00:09:07.79
He opened the door and I
went downstairs and hid in the
00:09:07.82\00:09:10.76
basement and waited for
the pharmacists to leave,
00:09:10.79\00:09:14.40
and then break out after
a steal everything I needed.
00:09:14.43\00:09:17.72
Well as I was hiding down
there I found my escape route.
00:09:17.75\00:09:20.84
I looked around and saw
these bar door, and took
00:09:20.87\00:09:23.62
the bars off, look and go
in there and there is these
00:09:23.65\00:09:25.84
gates on the sidewalk.
00:09:25.87\00:09:27.62
It was like the perfect crime.
00:09:27.65\00:09:30.76
I went in there and got
the drugs after he had left and
00:09:30.79\00:09:35.87
just came out the
escape through the doors on the
00:09:35.90\00:09:38.81
sidewalk and I was gone.
00:09:38.84\00:09:40.46
But in those days this
Disoxin stuff, this pure
00:09:40.49\00:09:44.92
methamphetamine hydrochloride,
it was pharmaceutical.
00:09:44.95\00:09:49.17
We would soak that stuff
down until was a yellow syrup
00:09:49.20\00:09:52.88
and take it in a needle and
shoot it in your arm and the
00:09:52.91\00:09:56.67
rush would like
hammer you against the wall.
00:09:56.70\00:09:59.19
2 weeks later I was tweaking
out on this, I was gone.
00:09:59.22\00:10:03.17
We had done the drugs and
so this time going to break
00:10:03.20\00:10:07.00
into the drug store again.
00:10:07.03\00:10:08.19
Well I'll tell you that
Meth does something to you.
00:10:08.22\00:10:13.06
It makes you feel
like nothing can hurt you,
00:10:13.09\00:10:16.92
I mean that you can do anything.
00:10:16.95\00:10:18.29
I look at it in my
testimony as the Antichrist.
00:10:18.32\00:10:23.78
And I say Antichrist is anything
the word anti means anything
00:10:23.81\00:10:27.81
you put in the place of Christ.
00:10:27.84\00:10:29.60
It was a power that
nothing can hurt me.
00:10:29.63\00:10:34.26
So I came in there and
instead of sneaking in,
00:10:34.29\00:10:38.69
now you are so far gone
that I had my cowboy boots
00:10:38.72\00:10:41.75
and jacket and I just
kicked in a plate glass window
00:10:41.78\00:10:44.47
and go through it.
00:10:44.50\00:10:45.53
And you're going like
this looking for everything.
00:10:45.56\00:10:48.00
Because you are gone, if
you know anything about Meth
00:10:48.03\00:10:50.41
you have been up
you've then and awake.
00:10:50.44\00:10:52.73
At first it may
intensify your feelings and your
00:10:52.76\00:10:56.29
thoughts, that you
could even think better,
00:10:56.32\00:10:58.53
but it just drains you,
it just destroys your body.
00:10:58.56\00:11:01.85
I came out of there and I
remember they were waiting.
00:11:01.88\00:11:05.24
I think because, there's
kind of a way things happen
00:11:05.27\00:11:10.52
once something gets broken into.
00:11:10.55\00:11:12.42
They know it's going
to get broken into again,
00:11:12.45\00:11:13.99
because we know
where the drugs are.
00:11:14.02\00:11:16.19
I broke in 2 weeks later.
00:11:16.22\00:11:18.77
I broke in and came
out and the K-9 dogs
00:11:18.80\00:11:22.04
chasing me down
and they catch me.
00:11:22.07\00:11:24.55
So this is my first felony.
00:11:24.58\00:11:26.85
So let's move things on,
they put me in a State Mental
00:11:26.88\00:11:30.98
Hospital for a
90 day observation.
00:11:31.01\00:11:32.96
I liked it there, it
wasn't a bad, there was
00:11:32.99\00:11:37.37
a lot worse places I could be.
00:11:37.40\00:11:38.53
In that period they said,
by the way, in the recovery
00:11:38.56\00:11:45.16
there, they want
to give you drugs.
00:11:45.19\00:11:46.81
Thorazine and all
this stuff was available.
00:11:46.84\00:11:50.07
I was to the point just the
shooting up was an addiction.
00:11:50.10\00:11:53.90
One of my best friends
Adam Gardner, I remember him
00:11:53.93\00:11:57.72
shooting up and he
abscessed and he is whole arm.
00:11:57.75\00:12:00.46
I mean it just went
like that, it was like
00:12:00.49\00:12:02.39
a mind blowing thing.
00:12:02.42\00:12:03.58
You didn't care
whether the needle was clean...
00:12:03.61\00:12:07.20
- we have to talk
about the addiction.
00:12:07.23\00:12:10.03
What is real interesting,
what you said was 2 things,
00:12:10.06\00:12:12.19
just shooting up
is the addiction.
00:12:12.22\00:12:14.24
Sometimes people don't
realize when you talk about
00:12:14.27\00:12:17.22
addictions is the whole
process, is the power of it.
00:12:17.25\00:12:20.03
It's a setting up,
like for a gambler,
00:12:20.06\00:12:25.38
it's not just the gambling.
00:12:25.41\00:12:26.69
It's walking in and be
the big shot and all that
00:12:26.72\00:12:28.97
stuff so it really is
everything around the addiction.
00:12:29.00\00:12:32.84
It becomes that you are
strung out on all of it.
00:12:32.87\00:12:35.45
Not just the needle.
00:12:35.48\00:12:38.07
I had a friend that shot up,
try to shoot up peanut butter.
00:12:38.10\00:12:41.57
I have crushed up
Thorazine and shot it.
00:12:41.60\00:12:44.80
PCP and I looked today,
and the mind that I have,
00:12:44.83\00:12:48.96
even though I'm bad
at remembering names,
00:12:48.99\00:12:50.81
I just thank God that
He saved something up here,
00:12:50.84\00:12:54.35
because I shouldn't be alive.
00:12:54.38\00:12:56.36
I did that, time in the
State Mental Hospital and
00:12:56.39\00:13:00.19
long after that, a
druggie is still a druggie.
00:13:00.22\00:13:02.91
If we don't have something,
once you been addicted to
00:13:02.94\00:13:08.05
something you are looking
for something to replace it.
00:13:08.08\00:13:10.36
There is a high about
it, in the drugs that is
00:13:10.39\00:13:14.66
enjoyable, but
there is a greater high.
00:13:14.69\00:13:17.34
Somewhere along the
line I needed to find
00:13:17.37\00:13:19.97
that in Jesus Christ.
00:13:20.00\00:13:21.77
I remember the same
thing happened again Cheri,
00:13:21.80\00:13:24.77
I did a drugstore
in Mt. Pleasant, Utah.
00:13:24.80\00:13:28.76
My brother was
involved in that one again too.
00:13:28.79\00:13:32.02
- I got to jump in, because
you said something that I
00:13:32.05\00:13:34.22
really feel like I want
to just jump in and correct.
00:13:34.25\00:13:36.77
Not correct your testimony
not correct your story but
00:13:36.80\00:13:39.83
when somebody says there is
a part of the addiction that
00:13:39.86\00:13:44.41
is enjoyable, I just
want to take that back.
00:13:44.44\00:13:46.49
An addict can be enjoying
something when they are taking
00:13:46.52\00:13:49.78
their last breath and
they don't even know that they
00:13:49.81\00:13:52.25
have trashed their body
to the point that their teeth
00:13:52.28\00:13:54.68
are rotting out.
00:13:54.71\00:13:55.74
They are taking their last
breath, they are psychotic,
00:13:55.77\00:13:57.95
they are doing things
like kicking in windows at a
00:13:57.98\00:14:01.28
pharmaceutical
company and going in.
00:14:01.31\00:14:03.40
In their mind their
thinking everything is fun,
00:14:03.43\00:14:06.05
everything is normal.
00:14:06.08\00:14:07.25
So even though you're talking
about your brain chemistry
00:14:07.28\00:14:10.30
is pumping out dopamine and
serotonins to where you feel
00:14:10.33\00:14:13.19
euphoric, don't think that
this is a normal enjoyment.
00:14:13.22\00:14:19.02
This is not like what you
feel when you're running with
00:14:19.05\00:14:21.25
your family at the beach.
00:14:21.28\00:14:22.49
This is the not what you feel
when you are learning to ski
00:14:22.52\00:14:25.93
for the first time, or
when you're laughing out
00:14:25.96\00:14:27.86
loud with friends.
00:14:27.89\00:14:29.21
So the enjoyment for
an addict is that you have
00:14:29.24\00:14:31.69
artificially kicked everything
up to where everything
00:14:31.72\00:14:34.16
feels fine even though
your kidneys are shutting down.
00:14:34.19\00:14:37.17
The reason I want to say
it is because I don't want
00:14:37.20\00:14:39.93
somebody out there to
think I got to find some drugs,
00:14:39.96\00:14:42.51
because I want to have
some fun, is I promise you that
00:14:42.54\00:14:46.01
it may be fun for a bit,
but it will take your life.
00:14:46.04\00:14:49.09
I've seen so many people
were they are at their last
00:14:49.12\00:14:53.08
breath and still saying
aren't we having a good time.
00:14:53.11\00:14:55.58
I'm thinking I just buried
my father, laid in bed with
00:14:55.61\00:14:59.30
him at 85 pounds and they
just tell him he can have as
00:14:59.33\00:15:02.83
much morphine as he wants.
00:15:02.86\00:15:04.24
He's like Yahoo how fun is that!
00:15:04.27\00:15:06.34
I just wanted to weep for him.
00:15:06.37\00:15:08.02
He had no idea he was
dying, he just knows he can get
00:15:08.05\00:15:10.55
high some more.
00:15:10.58\00:15:11.67
I'm sorry but I have
to say that because most
00:15:11.70\00:15:15.67
people don't
realize it is such a lie,
00:15:15.70\00:15:18.23
that we deceive ourselves.
00:15:18.26\00:15:19.99
I think as you say that
it's the biggest deception that
00:15:20.02\00:15:23.59
I see today.
00:15:23.62\00:15:24.68
The Meth thing is such a
powerful, and I know you look
00:15:24.71\00:15:30.47
at the cocaine and
everything else, but the high of
00:15:30.50\00:15:32.65
methamphetamine
is such a long high.
00:15:32.68\00:15:34.36
It's such an intense high.
00:15:34.39\00:15:35.89
It is the devil trying to
deceive us into thinking that
00:15:35.92\00:15:40.28
it is something good for us.
00:15:40.31\00:15:42.85
- as my teeth
fall out of my face,
00:15:42.88\00:15:45.26
I think I'm having fun.
00:15:45.29\00:15:46.69
- you know right now as
we talk, you talk about the
00:15:46.72\00:15:50.16
teeth thing, in mine I've
got a partial here, and I was
00:15:50.20\00:15:53.29
just talking to Sherry that I
think I'll have them pulled out.
00:15:53.32\00:15:55.17
Every time I get something
fixed the other one rots out.
00:15:55.20\00:15:58.97
I think that might
happen anyway because
00:15:59.00\00:16:02.39
of a long abuse.
00:16:02.42\00:16:04.00
I did that in another drugstore
in 2 weeks and the same
00:16:04.03\00:16:07.37
thing got away the
first time and here I am
00:16:07.40\00:16:09.33
busted again and I can
remember the police when they
00:16:09.36\00:16:11.34
pulled us over.
00:16:11.37\00:16:12.40
It was snowing and everything,
they came from both ways
00:16:12.43\00:16:15.34
on us, we was on our
way down a country road.
00:16:15.37\00:16:17.67
They had this set up to
roadblock us, but they asked me
00:16:17.70\00:16:21.38
the question have you
ever been arrested before and
00:16:21.41\00:16:23.20
it's like what do you say?
00:16:23.23\00:16:24.63
Yeah course I
have, well what for?
00:16:24.66\00:16:26.44
Well for burglarizing
drugstore's you know.
00:16:26.47\00:16:29.49
And the pattern we go
with this time they sent me to
00:16:29.52\00:16:32.86
State Industrial School
and I ran away from there even.
00:16:32.89\00:16:36.96
- you are still
underage at this point?
00:16:36.99\00:16:38.80
I'm underage throughout all
of this, this is happen from
00:16:38.83\00:16:41.50
when I was 15 until I'm 17.
00:16:41.53\00:16:45.64
I was in State Industrial
School there, I got released
00:16:45.67\00:16:49.74
and it was just a matter
of another month or 2 and
00:16:49.77\00:16:52.27
I was back again.
00:16:52.30\00:16:53.42
I been arrested burglarizing
a drugstore in Salt Lake City.
00:16:53.45\00:16:56.80
In fact, I look at that
and can still remember what the
00:16:56.83\00:17:00.11
police officer said, the
one in the store that got me.
00:17:00.14\00:17:03.64
He said, I had you in
the sights of my gun and was
00:17:03.67\00:17:06.38
ready to pull the trigger, and
I look today and maybe not then
00:17:06.41\00:17:09.57
but today the trigger
might have been pulled.
00:17:09.60\00:17:11.85
We are in a whole
different world today.
00:17:11.88\00:17:14.00
When I was in the drug scene
I had to look for it Cheri,
00:17:14.03\00:17:17.68
I was a small group of
people back in the early 70's.
00:17:17.71\00:17:22.11
The drugs weren't down
in the elementary schools,
00:17:22.14\00:17:25.24
and we all knew who we were.
00:17:25.27\00:17:27.49
It messed me up so bad,
but God was always with me.
00:17:27.52\00:17:35.06
I remember that second
time at the State Industrial
00:17:35.09\00:17:37.68
School - I have to ask
you so when you broke into the
00:17:37.71\00:17:40.67
drugstore where was God?
00:17:40.70\00:17:42.33
When you said that
God was always with you,
00:17:42.36\00:17:45.16
I just thought wait a minute.
00:17:45.19\00:17:46.54
- He's protecting me, I
mean the prayers, we talked
00:17:46.57\00:17:50.43
about this prayer thing.
00:17:50.46\00:17:52.11
I know that I have a
mother praying for me,
00:17:52.14\00:17:55.17
and I have a
church praying for me.
00:17:55.20\00:17:56.65
- and God is continuously
trying to turn you around.
00:17:56.68\00:17:59.85
All the time, I had
people back when I was rebelling
00:17:59.88\00:18:04.49
and going away to school, that
would have paid my education
00:18:04.52\00:18:07.97
all through the University
because they believed in me.
00:18:08.00\00:18:11.48
I've always had people
believing in me, my problem is
00:18:11.51\00:18:14.23
when I go to do something
I do with all my heart.
00:18:14.26\00:18:18.67
If I'm going to get
into trouble, in my work,
00:18:18.70\00:18:22.57
I'm going to be
the best that I can be.
00:18:22.60\00:18:24.26
In ministry that is some
of our challenges with me,
00:18:24.29\00:18:28.34
and my wife says
you got to slow down.
00:18:28.37\00:18:30.71
But I have always been
on this thing to go, go, go,
00:18:30.74\00:18:33.67
and do it, so when I got in
trouble I did it really good.
00:18:33.70\00:18:38.13
Here I am in industrial
school and 1 of 2 people in
00:18:38.16\00:18:42.21
Utah, that goes to
regular school off campus.
00:18:42.24\00:18:45.49
I don't know why that
worked out for me, but there was
00:18:45.52\00:18:48.07
me and 1 other.
00:18:48.10\00:18:49.13
And you have
several hundred kids there.
00:18:49.16\00:18:50.27
I was going to stay
there, I was going to turn 18
00:18:50.30\00:18:53.86
during the summer and
they were going to let me out.
00:18:53.89\00:18:56.30
I was going to come back
and go to school in Ogdan Utah,
00:18:56.33\00:19:01.66
at the high
school, and play football.
00:19:01.69\00:19:03.09
But it is interesting,
God still had a different plan
00:19:03.12\00:19:07.27
in my life and that was
that when I went home that
00:19:07.30\00:19:10.23
summer a Dr, it was
Dr. Charles Smith, in Utah.
00:19:10.26\00:19:14.79
He invited me to go
along with him to Long Beach,
00:19:14.82\00:19:17.75
it was called Institutes in
Basic Youth Conflict Seminar.
00:19:17.78\00:19:21.48
Bill Gothard was his name.
00:19:21.51\00:19:22.86
I mean Long Beach Arena
was just filled with people
00:19:22.89\00:19:26.26
who listen to this guy
talk about God and how the
00:19:26.29\00:19:29.03
Bible would change
your life, and how Christ
00:19:29.06\00:19:30.75
will change your life.
00:19:30.78\00:19:31.81
I went to that and I
had a conversion experience,
00:19:31.84\00:19:35.58
were invited
Christ into my life.
00:19:35.61\00:19:37.89
As a result of that, here
I came from a reform school,
00:19:37.92\00:19:42.06
here I am 2 years a 3-
time felon, breaking in
00:19:42.09\00:19:46.00
and stealing dope,
shooting it up in my arm and
00:19:46.03\00:19:49.73
I make a choice to go to
Castle Valley, which is the
00:19:49.76\00:19:55.14
very ultra conservative
Seventh-day Adventist
00:19:55.17\00:19:58.57
school up in the
mountains of Moab, Utah.
00:19:58.60\00:20:01.37
It's like wow, what in the world
happened, what's on my mind?
00:20:01.40\00:20:05.21
I went there and if I saw
you there, I would have to
00:20:05.24\00:20:08.47
call you sister
Cheri, you know what I mean,
00:20:08.50\00:20:10.27
that was the vocabulary.
00:20:10.30\00:20:11.45
You couldn't talk to
the girls, and it was
00:20:11.48\00:20:14.59
a very, very strict school.
00:20:14.62\00:20:16.40
It was one of the best things
that happened to me going there.
00:20:16.43\00:20:19.31
- because we
need those boundaries.
00:20:19.34\00:20:22.14
We haven't had any boundaries,
we haven't had anyone
00:20:22.17\00:20:24.23
keep us accountable
and so God just said to you
00:20:24.26\00:20:26.96
I'm sure as this boy,
you have got to have somebody
00:20:26.99\00:20:29.76
to teach you and keep
you in line right now.
00:20:29.79\00:20:33.16
I stuck out the
year, it was hard.
00:20:33.19\00:20:37.86
- boy I would like to interview
some of those teachers.
00:20:37.89\00:20:41.23
You think it was hard for you.
00:20:41.26\00:20:44.09
Well here I am and
after that I graduate,
00:20:44.12\00:20:48.73
that was my senior year.
00:20:48.76\00:20:49.87
So I come from being a
drug addict juvenile delinquent
00:20:49.90\00:20:54.06
and felon, to Castle Valley.
00:20:54.09\00:20:56.83
It's a Daystar academy now.
00:20:56.86\00:20:58.94
- were you in the choir?
00:20:58.97\00:21:00.00
Yeah I was - I knew
it - Dave Siebert was the
00:21:00.03\00:21:03.72
choir director there back then.
00:21:03.75\00:21:06.34
And it was just some experience.
00:21:06.37\00:21:08.49
When I left there, in my
graduation I wanted to be a
00:21:08.52\00:21:12.40
minister and I don't
want to take this lightly in
00:21:12.43\00:21:14.89
my testimony because I
had a desire back then at
00:21:14.92\00:21:18.97
18 years old to
give my life in service
00:21:19.00\00:21:22.44
to the Lord and
helping other people.
00:21:22.47\00:21:24.92
But my life just
seemed like a roller coaster
00:21:24.95\00:21:28.52
and up-and-down thing.
00:21:28.55\00:21:29.81
Here I would have
Jesus close in my life and
00:21:29.84\00:21:34.26
that I would get away from it.
00:21:34.29\00:21:36.40
When I was there a
Castle Valley I got a hold of
00:21:36.43\00:21:38.44
some tapes of a man
named Morris Venden.
00:21:38.47\00:21:40.38
As I listened to
him talk about Jesus,
00:21:40.41\00:21:43.71
and talk about how
Jesus can change your life,
00:21:43.74\00:21:47.01
and how it is not
hard to be a Christian,
00:21:47.04\00:21:49.68
how it is something He
wants us to spend time with Him.
00:21:49.71\00:21:54.22
- do you remember some
of the things that he said,
00:21:54.25\00:21:57.49
when he said it wasn't
hard to be a Christian and
00:21:57.52\00:22:00.22
made it so cool for you,
easy for you, do you remember
00:22:00.25\00:22:04.41
anything that
was on those tapes?
00:22:04.44\00:22:06.21
Morris Venden said something,
he would talk about trees.
00:22:06.24\00:22:10.44
I know the Bible talks
about people is like trees.
00:22:10.47\00:22:14.74
He asked a question,
what is the main purpose
00:22:14.77\00:22:19.00
of an apple tree?
00:22:19.03\00:22:20.12
Most people say
well the main purpose of
00:22:20.15\00:22:23.85
an apple tree is to bear fruit.
00:22:23.88\00:22:26.79
He say, well now
that is a good answer,
00:22:26.82\00:22:32.33
but the real main
purpose of an apple tree is to
00:22:32.36\00:22:34.17
reproduce apple trees.
00:22:34.20\00:22:35.73
And when I would hear
things like that, the job
00:22:35.76\00:22:39.65
of a Christian when
you come to Christ it's not
00:22:39.68\00:22:44.29
to just be perfect.
00:22:44.32\00:22:45.84
I mean some people
think I have to be so good,
00:22:45.87\00:22:48.58
but I have to quit
doing this, I got to quit
00:22:48.61\00:22:50.50
to quit doing that.
00:22:50.53\00:22:51.56
You know the whole thing
with Christianity is to grow.
00:22:51.59\00:22:56.27
And that is a personal
level with you and me too,
00:22:56.30\00:22:59.41
we grow to know Jesus better.
00:22:59.44\00:23:01.25
- to me I call it
recovery, which is a lot of
00:23:01.28\00:23:04.78
people to step into
recovery and have a life.
00:23:04.81\00:23:08.37
To walk away for all that stuff.
00:23:08.40\00:23:10.04
Sometimes I just put
it in recovery language,
00:23:10.07\00:23:14.77
just because that is the
kind of people I run with,
00:23:14.80\00:23:18.04
but the purpose is to
recover and teach somebody
00:23:18.07\00:23:21.19
else how to recover.
00:23:21.22\00:23:22.25
Right, he would
say other things.
00:23:22.28\00:23:26.23
The time that you
spend in your Bible and that
00:23:26.26\00:23:29.83
you spend to get to know
Jesus as your best friend.
00:23:29.86\00:23:32.56
He made, the big thing
about Morris Venden is,
00:23:32.59\00:23:35.94
he made Jesus to be real.
00:23:35.97\00:23:37.57
If Jesus isn't real
then I don't want nothing to
00:23:37.60\00:23:41.75
do with it, and don't
take that wrong is what I say.
00:23:41.78\00:23:45.00
I need something
real, I need something
00:23:45.03\00:23:47.36
I can grasp onto.
00:23:47.39\00:23:48.78
I need something
that can change my life,
00:23:48.81\00:23:50.69
because I am a mess.
00:23:50.72\00:23:52.42
So here I leave Castle
Valley going back with the
00:23:52.45\00:23:55.99
desire to be a
minister and I'm good at selling
00:23:56.02\00:23:59.22
stuff by the way.
00:23:59.25\00:24:00.44
I'm just good talker I
guess in convincing you
00:24:00.47\00:24:06.20
of something maybe...
00:24:06.23\00:24:07.57
- your wife is like, he so is.
00:24:07.60\00:24:09.19
So you are totally
agree with him on this one?
00:24:09.22\00:24:11.80
They offered me a job to
go out, because of my past to
00:24:11.83\00:24:16.60
go out and sell books,
War against Drugs books.
00:24:16.63\00:24:21.03
- can I ask you, had
you and Sherry met yet?
00:24:21.06\00:24:23.57
- no, we haven't!
00:24:23.60\00:24:24.71
So we are going to
hear your whole story too?
00:24:24.74\00:24:27.54
And so I say yeah, that's
sounds good because you know
00:24:27.57\00:24:32.49
I have had a problem,
and one of the other things
00:24:32.52\00:24:34.78
to I have really been away
at Castle Valley and there's
00:24:34.81\00:24:38.21
no drugs at Castle Valley.
00:24:38.24\00:24:39.64
Here I get out of that
atmosphere, and one of the fears
00:24:39.67\00:24:43.09
too is if I am not strong
in Christ, if I'm not spending
00:24:43.12\00:24:47.43
time with Him.
00:24:47.46\00:24:48.49
I guess as I say that I
don't want to be a cliché,
00:24:48.52\00:24:50.68
but if this book
doesn't mean something to me,
00:24:50.71\00:24:54.55
and He's not real to
me, I'm going to fall.
00:24:54.58\00:24:56.65
So I get back out of this
element of a very conservative
00:24:56.68\00:25:02.38
school and they are going
to put me selling these War
00:25:02.41\00:25:05.91
against Drugs books.
00:25:05.94\00:25:07.12
Well you know what happened,
where the money was going
00:25:07.15\00:25:10.95
to go, they said would go
to place that it wasn't going.
00:25:10.98\00:25:14.90
So I decided I would get
the books and sell them myself.
00:25:14.93\00:25:18.45
Here I am on going out selling
these War on Drugs books,
00:25:18.48\00:25:23.07
trying to help people,
and I'm taking the money and
00:25:23.10\00:25:25.28
buying drugs - so
you have relapsed now?
00:25:25.31\00:25:28.20
I relapsed and as I look
at this in my whole life the
00:25:28.23\00:25:34.49
biggest and most important
thing as a Pastor is the
00:25:34.52\00:25:38.18
importance of having a
close relationship with Jesus.
00:25:38.21\00:25:42.35
When I say that, in a
close relationship, is spending
00:25:42.38\00:25:46.14
time with Him.
00:25:46.17\00:25:47.23
It's like if I don't have
a relationship with my wife,
00:25:47.26\00:25:50.63
if I don't spend time
with her, and she gets on me
00:25:50.66\00:25:52.86
sometimes
because I neglect that.
00:25:52.89\00:25:55.07
In my work I get caught
up as a Pastor and she said
00:25:55.10\00:25:59.17
where's my time,
where is my time?
00:25:59.20\00:26:00.80
And God is saying that, He
is saying that to me though too.
00:26:00.83\00:26:05.36
Where's my time in a
personal time, not with all the
00:26:05.39\00:26:10.60
other people that I worked
with in the Ministry, but the
00:26:10.63\00:26:13.44
time that we really
spend together so that
00:26:13.47\00:26:15.22
I can talk to you.
00:26:15.25\00:26:16.32
I know we have talked in
this about talking with God,
00:26:16.35\00:26:19.35
and understand, having
that hooking back and forth
00:26:19.38\00:26:21.98
for it to really mean something.
00:26:22.01\00:26:24.11
I look at my past and see
all the drugs and that and
00:26:24.14\00:26:29.70
I relapsed
back, I relapsed back.
00:26:29.73\00:26:32.35
- for people who do not
know about relapsed, this is
00:26:32.38\00:26:34.64
for the café people and
for the folks listening,
00:26:34.67\00:26:37.44
is that a typical person
in recovery from anything.
00:26:37.47\00:26:41.47
From spending, from
lying, from drugs, from alcohol,
00:26:41.50\00:26:45.68
from sexual addiction,
from what ever is that the
00:26:45.71\00:26:49.55
average relapses about 7
times before we are done.
00:26:49.58\00:26:53.25
I don't know why that is,
00:26:53.28\00:26:54.38
but most studies will show that.
00:26:54.41\00:26:55.81
So to me God is real
faithful and patient with us,
00:26:55.84\00:26:59.09
which I think is amazing.
00:26:59.12\00:27:00.45
But I just wanted to
say that for people to be
00:27:00.48\00:27:03.11
patient with each other.
00:27:03.14\00:27:04.36
I don't know, I hope the
people in your life were coming
00:27:04.39\00:27:08.16
alongside of you and helping
you through that relapse.
00:27:08.19\00:27:10.67
You know sometimes they
were and sometimes they weren't.
00:27:10.70\00:27:15.00
You know, big disappointment!
00:27:15.03\00:27:16.44
- because they don't expect
it and that is why I want to say
00:27:16.47\00:27:20.59
out loud, because I think
we expect someone to get it
00:27:20.62\00:27:24.01
and never have a
struggle with it again.
00:27:24.04\00:27:25.68
And I think God
wishes that for us.
00:27:25.71\00:27:28.60
God desires that for
us, but we are idiots.
00:27:28.63\00:27:35.14
No, we are not real bright
in that, that we will keep
00:27:35.17\00:27:38.68
going back, the
Bible says, like a dog goes
00:27:38.71\00:27:40.19
back to its vomit.
00:27:40.22\00:27:41.35
To have somebody that
literally comes alongside of us
00:27:41.38\00:27:46.63
and says let me
pull you back up again.
00:27:46.66\00:27:49.21
Let me show you how you
got on the slippery slope.
00:27:49.24\00:27:52.34
Let me show you that
you weren't taking care of
00:27:52.37\00:27:54.44
yourself, that you weren't
in the word, that you weren't
00:27:54.47\00:27:56.11
eating right, you were
staying up all night again and
00:27:56.14\00:27:58.47
all those things.
00:27:58.50\00:27:59.86
So to have somebody
alongside of you that says,
00:27:59.89\00:28:02.45
you said sometimes that
happens and sometimes it didn't.
00:28:02.48\00:28:04.99
But you're relapsed
did not surprise God.
00:28:05.02\00:28:08.00
When I think of the relapsed,
and as you saying 7 times,
00:28:08.03\00:28:13.85
for me I think it
took way more than that.
00:28:13.88\00:28:16.90
As I look at it I can
see, but each time it happened
00:28:16.93\00:28:21.91
and when I would get
back with my sight on Christ,
00:28:21.94\00:28:25.25
I would see were I
messed up in the past and as
00:28:25.28\00:28:31.66
I looked at that and I saw
over and over and over again,
00:28:31.69\00:28:34.69
even though I was messing
up I'm learning something.
00:28:34.72\00:28:37.53
By the way this is
only the first part.
00:28:37.56\00:28:40.64
I got away somewhat from
the drugs as far as the Meth
00:28:40.67\00:28:45.33
using it all the time
where was just really tearing me
00:28:45.36\00:28:48.07
up, after this time I
got busted burglarizing the
00:28:48.10\00:28:51.11
drugstore, not a
drugstore, a leather store.
00:28:51.14\00:28:54.26
You see in that instance I
was already 18 and so here I
00:28:54.29\00:28:58.72
get sentenced 1 to 10, suspended
and that was the best word
00:28:58.75\00:29:02.79
I ever heard my life.
00:29:02.82\00:29:03.85
My brother had already been
to prison and would be going
00:29:03.88\00:29:08.13
back to prison again, but
nobody likes being locked up.
00:29:08.16\00:29:12.66
I hear this word and as
a result of that we do this
00:29:12.69\00:29:18.12
geographic
change we talked about.
00:29:18.15\00:29:20.21
I'm going to get away from
Utah to California and that
00:29:20.24\00:29:23.54
moves us forward
to were I met Sherry.
00:29:23.57\00:29:26.72
- okay lets have a break
and come back and find out how
00:29:26.75\00:29:28.94
you guys met!
00:29:28.97\00:29:30.04
How God ends up
moving you into a Ministry,
00:29:30.07\00:29:33.57
what does that look
like, and you had to know his
00:29:33.60\00:29:39.09
background before
you married him, right?
00:29:39.12\00:29:41.14
- not all of it - you didn't,
00:29:41.17\00:29:43.16
you have to stay with us.
00:29:43.19\00:29:44.78
So were going to go
ahead and take a break.
00:29:44.81\00:29:46.25
We are going to
find out how God steps
00:29:46.28\00:29:47.59
into all this stuff.
00:29:47.62\00:29:48.93
How does He work
with the relapses.
00:29:48.96\00:29:51.16
How does He get us to
trust Him to the point where
00:29:51.19\00:29:53.92
we say we are done.
00:29:53.95\00:29:55.14
I am done, I'm
done stumbling around.
00:29:55.17\00:29:56.65
I'm done going back to jail.
00:29:56.68\00:29:58.11
I'm done being hooked and
twisted with this addiction.
00:29:58.14\00:30:00.79
I actually want freedom.
00:30:00.82\00:30:02.33
We will be right
back to talk about that.
00:30:02.36\00:30:04.20
So stay with us!
00:30:04.23\00:30:05.26