Hi, Clifford Goldstein here
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Welcome you to
Contending for the Faith
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This is part of a
series called Faith and Science
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Where we look at questions
of well, Faith and science
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And these are
important topics to look at
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especially together,
because even in the 21st century
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faith remains
an important aspect
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an important
part of peoples lives
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Though there have
been through the ages
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all sorts of prognostications
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about how faith
was going to disappear
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from the earth... and all that
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this is hardly the case
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human beings are, at the core
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not just physical beings
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but spiritual beings as well
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we all have spiritual natures
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even if everyone doesn't
recognize it as spiritual
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but there's something in us
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that tends to
grasp and reach out
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for more than just what we are
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or what we could see
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there's an innate sense in us
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of a reality that
transcends the here and now
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well anyway that's a very broad
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definition of the
concept of spirituality
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and in many
cases though this need
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is expressed by
what is commonly known
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as faith or
religion, and these have
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certainly not,
especially in some parts
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of the world died
out as been predicted
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ok it still
remains a very important
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force in our lives. I
believe that as long as
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human beings exist on earth
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we will be spiritual beings
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In fact if I read
my Bible correctly
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my understanding
is that spirituality
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is going to exist and be a major
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factor even to the final
events of earth's history
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But alas, that's a
whole other matter entirely
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at the same time though
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as relevant as faith is
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science has been and is still
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very relevant and flourishing
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It's a powerful
force in our lives
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and rightly so I think many many
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human beings alive today
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one degree or
another have had their lives
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impacted by science
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Most likely anyone here too
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listening to my words right now
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are looking at my
getting torqued out
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face are enjoying
many of the fruits
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and benefits of science
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Please our lives are
changing at a rapid pace
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due I think more to science than
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than anything else in the world
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Fact if we stop
to think about it
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how science has and
is impacting your life
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I would say that
uh.. that technology has
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no doubt really
impacted our lives
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in very very, in
very very powerful ways
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and though we can debate whether
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its been positive or negative
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I think, and that's
not where I wanna go
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though I think from
most points its been positive
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that's my, my point. My point is
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that religion,
like faith, remains a
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that science
like faith remains a
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very powerful
force in human existence
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and that's why I've
been doing this series
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to begin with. Because we have
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two potent forces
in the world today
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Faith and Science
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and sometimes
they work in powerful
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harmony with each other
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Ok since the advent
of what we call science
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which was
actively the term scientist
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itself was coined by
a man named William Yule
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in 1834,there has been very
little discord between the two
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despite the idea that
all through the centuries
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science and faith
have been clashing
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That is kind of a myth
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In fact, I don't
want to back down
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bog down into this now
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but some have argued that it was
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only in the context of faith
only in the context of belief
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in a divine creator that science
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could've arisen
in the first place
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ok and that's because
there is this foundational idea
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in Science that
there is a rational
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a rational world
out there to discover
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and I use that term very broadly
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because in the quantum
the area of quantum physics
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the word rational
takes on a whole new meaning
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it's not the way we
traditionally understood it
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anyway, it was thought
at the heart of all science
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lies the idea that
the universe is orderly
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because if it weren't, if
it were all chaos and confusion
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then how could we
really do science?
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The earliest scientists
sometimes called natural
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philosophers worked
from the idea that they were
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discovering the handiwork of God
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one 20th century Welsh
scientist John Halton wrote:
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But the question is why
should the world be orderly?
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or rational enough to
be subject to our scrutiny
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to begin with? The
mere idea of this has
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that this is how it is
has made science possible
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And for many reason, for many
people the only reason that it
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is orderly or can be orderly
is because God had created
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No question, the
idea that from the start
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closed minded religionists
have been hampering the
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pursuit of truth through science
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is really it's a modern myth
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and the truth is really much
much more complicated than that
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for many people, myself included
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science has made if anything
has made us marvel at the power
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at the power of the creator God
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David wrote 'the
heavens declare the glory of God
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David wrote this. This was
a man that didn't have a clue
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about the size and the grandeur
and the majesty of the cosmos
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He never looked
through a telescope
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He never saw an island galaxy
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Science has opened up so much
grandeur, so much complexity
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so much wonder, to me it
all shouts with undeniable power
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about the reality of God
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And I guess it did to Paul too
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who wrote the
following. Listen to this
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This is Paul, don't blame me
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No question. Science and faith
have worked very well together
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But not always. And this is
what I wanted to look in today
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as one area where they haven't
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at least not in recent times
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and this has to do
in the area of origin
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the origins of the universe
and the origins of humanity
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Because they are
of course, linked
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Here's where there's been a
great divide between science
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and, and faith.
Particularly Biblical faith
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And that's what I
wanna look at in this program
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You know for
most of human history
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people could look
around at the created world
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and see evidence of a
creator or creators of some kind
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I mean it's just uh uh
our world itself screams
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seems to scream out design
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we could see it in the flowers
we could see it in the trees
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we could see it in the animals
we could see it in the cell
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we could see it in human beings
and fish, cats and butterflies
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in the atom and
the carbon molecules
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everywhere we can see it
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you know by analogy my iPhone
sure looks designed, doesn't it?
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Well in the same way my
dog, my big old German Shepherd
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she looks designed too. In
fact I think there's a lot more
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design and more intricacy
in my dog than in my iPhone
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Thus, I look at my
dog and I see design
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And design almost by
the very term itself design
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means that somewhere out
there there was a designer
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There's a name for this argument
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it's called the Teleological
argument from the Greek word
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Telos which means
purpose or in purpose
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Things are designed for a reason
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ok, the design is built in.
So whatever it is an octopus eye
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an Eagle's wing, a cell wall,
a human nose, all are designed
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because they have a
goal, a purpose, a teleo
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The octopus eye is
there for the octopus to see
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The eagle's wings are
there so the eagle can fly
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a cell wall for all the
purposes a cell wall has
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such as holding
the cell together
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and the human nose is
there so that humans can smell
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All these are a Telios, they are
a purpose ok. That's what they
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were designed for. Well
that's been one argument for God
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And there's another argument and
it goes back a long way as well
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It's been called the
cosmological argument
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And the essence of
the argument is this
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is that nothing that was
created had created itself
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Again, nothing that
was created created itself
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Notice I said nothing created as
opposed to something uncreated
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created itself. There
is a big difference here
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and one we should not miss.
Anything that once didn't exist
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but then came into existence
had to come into existence
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from something before it,
something that preceded it
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and also created it. That's
just simple down to earth logic
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common sense.
Something that does not exist
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cannot create itself,
because to create itself
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it would have to already exist
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and if it already existed, then
it couldn't didn't create itself
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instead something
else had to create it
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and whatever created it, that
was created by something else
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and something else created
it before and you go on and on
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and you keep going back till
you get something that always
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existed something that always
was and what else who else could
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that be but God. The
God depicted in the Bible
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And without Him nothing made,
nothing created none of those
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things that were made,
created were created without Him
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So you see there's a
radical difference, a radical
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distinction between what
always existed, what always was
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and what came into existence
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and God the creator always was
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and He's radically
different from the creation
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that which once
didn't exist but now does
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Anyway, this had always
been a powerful argument
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for the creator, for the
one who created all things
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that once
didn't exist but now do
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Now what's fascinating is
that science in recent years
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has taken paths that it claims
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pretty much refutes
both these arguments
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and that's what
I want to look at
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the claims of science that
it can refute these arguments
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if that were true, then two
of the oldest and I think most
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powerful arguments in
favor of God's existence
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are then refuted by science
00:13:48.29\00:13:52.43
And for many people, as
I've said before on other shows
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if science says something,
if science refutes something
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about their faith what
is that person but to do
00:14:00.35\00:14:03.52
but to accept what science says
00:14:03.55\00:14:06.46
that's at least the
argument that many believe
00:14:06.49\00:14:09.49
and I want to look
at that idea as well
00:14:09.52\00:14:11.94
because if you've
been following this series
00:14:11.97\00:14:14.24
you'll know just
how false and misleading
00:14:14.27\00:14:17.48
that whole
concept really, really is
00:14:17.51\00:14:21.40
Anyway, what I want
to start out with is
00:14:21.43\00:14:24.14
the Teleological argument,
the argument from design
00:14:24.17\00:14:27.30
Now you might think it would be
more logical to start out with
00:14:27.33\00:14:30.33
the cosmological argument
and then come to that but
00:14:30.36\00:14:33.21
I think you'll see why I
want to take the paths that I am
00:14:33.24\00:14:38.01
Now the argument from design
00:14:38.04\00:14:40.52
As I said, for
most of human history
00:14:40.55\00:14:44.04
people looked around
the world and saw design
00:14:44.07\00:14:47.53
they saw beauty, they
saw what looked like Telios
00:14:47.56\00:14:51.20
a Telios and so they just
didn't believe it was all thrown
00:14:51.23\00:14:55.74
together by chance. They
thought this was evidence of God
00:14:55.77\00:14:59.86
Well then along comes
old Charlie Darwin and the
00:14:59.89\00:15:03.18
theory of evolution and soon
many people, for many people
00:15:03.21\00:15:07.62
the whole idea of design,
the whole idea of a Telios
00:15:07.65\00:15:12.32
was being cast aside. Things
only look like their design
00:15:12.35\00:15:17.46
they merely give the appearance
that they are designed
00:15:17.49\00:15:21.60
But they aren't, Instead we are
taught through a long process
00:15:21.63\00:15:26.81
of natural
selection and random mutation
00:15:26.84\00:15:29.59
all that life that
exists today came into existence
00:15:29.62\00:15:34.12
it's all we were assured
products of these two cold and
00:15:34.15\00:15:38.87
unconscious, purposeless forces
Random mutation and natural
00:15:38.90\00:15:43.94
selection. I mean this is
where science has taken us
00:15:43.97\00:15:47.42
At least according to how
many people understand science
00:15:47.45\00:15:50.98
The whole idea of design or
I should say conscious design
00:15:51.01\00:15:55.91
was being thrown out despite
the rather obvious fact that
00:15:55.94\00:16:00.32
every living thing from a single
celled critter to a human being
00:16:00.35\00:16:05.50
sure looked
fantastically complex
00:16:05.53\00:16:09.09
However also in
the past 30 some years
00:16:09.12\00:16:13.08
a new phenomena has risen
00:16:13.11\00:16:15.46
they're called
anthropic coincidences
00:16:15.49\00:16:18.05
they're from the
Greek word anthropos
00:16:18.08\00:16:20.58
but notice the
other word coincidences
00:16:20.61\00:16:22.93
that's kind of a loaded word.
But that's a whole other issue
00:16:22.96\00:16:26.29
But I don't want to get into it
00:16:26.32\00:16:27.73
But anyway the point is
that science is finding these
00:16:27.76\00:16:31.90
incredible fine tune in nature
00:16:31.93\00:16:35.92
There's all this fine tuning.
It's often been described like
00:16:35.95\00:16:39.90
this, Imagine a
machine with 30 dials on it
00:16:39.93\00:16:43.43
only these dials are
refined down to tiny little
00:16:43.46\00:16:47.95
billionth, you can
turn a knob to the billionth
00:16:47.98\00:16:50.49
Now these dials represent the
crucial fundamental constants
00:16:50.52\00:16:55.36
that are needed for
nature and they're all there
00:16:55.39\00:16:59.11
in a certain way. If one
of these dials were tweaked
00:16:59.14\00:17:01.70
even the slightest bit,
life we know couldn't exist.
00:17:01.73\00:17:06.45
hence they get the
word anthropic for man
00:17:06.48\00:17:09.34
Ok and its the whole idea that
the whole universe is created
00:17:09.37\00:17:13.00
for man or mankind. Anyway
00:17:13.03\00:17:15.94
the problem with the
anthropic coincidence,
00:17:15.97\00:17:19.14
or the problem that
these things bring up
00:17:19.17\00:17:22.11
is that these numbers just
seem too small, too fantastic
00:17:22.14\00:17:28.51
to have happened by chance alone
00:17:28.54\00:17:31.11
I mean these scientists
see these mind blowing ratio
00:17:31.14\00:17:35.19
and suddenly the idea
of this occurring by chance
00:17:35.22\00:17:39.18
becomes
mathematically impossible
00:17:39.21\00:17:41.61
It just doesn't seem possible
00:17:41.64\00:17:43.57
how this could, these
ratios of these dials,
00:17:43.60\00:17:47.22
for these fundamental
constants the slightest tweaking
00:17:47.25\00:17:50.54
and life, human
life couldn't exist
00:17:50.57\00:17:53.97
ok, it becomes
mathematically impossible
00:17:54.00\00:17:57.72
Well, it seems that science
has come to the rescue again.
00:17:57.75\00:18:04.11
in a way that can explain this
amazing anthropic coincidences
00:18:04.14\00:18:10.01
coincidences without a creator
00:18:10.04\00:18:12.66
Ok that's a concept that arose
and it's called the multi verse
00:18:12.69\00:18:18.85
This is opposed to the Universe
00:18:18.88\00:18:23.08
Yes, uni - one universe.
The Multiverse means that
00:18:23.11\00:18:27.06
that there are many universes.
Yes we are now being told that
00:18:27.09\00:18:31.78
our universe, this vast cosmos
00:18:31.81\00:18:34.52
that we can barely
wrap our minds around
00:18:34.55\00:18:37.45
this is just one of an
impossibly infinite number of
00:18:37.48\00:18:41.97
universes out there. Now I'm
not even going to try to fake
00:18:42.00\00:18:46.23
understanding, you know
saying that I understand the
00:18:46.26\00:18:49.75
theoretical physics behind it
00:18:49.78\00:18:52.14
But there is this
idea now, presently popular
00:18:52.17\00:18:55.75
which talks about how our
universe has been expanding
00:18:55.78\00:18:59.60
when it was first created. They
call it inflation and supposedly
00:18:59.63\00:19:04.30
there is some
theoretical evidence for it
00:19:04.33\00:19:07.82
And the idea is that as the
universe expanded and created
00:19:07.85\00:19:11.64
it just got so big that it
started to spawn other bubble
00:19:11.67\00:19:15.71
universes which
inflated into more universes
00:19:15.74\00:19:18.95
and on and on and on this kind
of internal creation inflation
00:19:18.98\00:19:23.09
creating we're told an
infinite number of universes
00:19:23.12\00:19:28.73
This is right now
the theory du jour
00:19:28.76\00:19:32.01
what it will be like you
know in ten years, who knows?
00:19:32.04\00:19:36.04
The fact is that we have
not seen any physical evidence
00:19:36.07\00:19:39.14
of these, of
even one more universe
00:19:39.17\00:19:41.55
we barely know what's
in ours It's speculation
00:19:41.58\00:19:45.45
at the highest level. But now,
whether this inflationary model
00:19:45.48\00:19:51.02
is correct, I don't know
00:19:51.05\00:19:52.76
But really, and whether or
not it leads to other universes
00:19:52.79\00:19:56.48
I don't know. I
tend to be very skeptical
00:19:56.51\00:19:59.62
But whether it does or
not, its now being touted
00:19:59.65\00:20:03.77
as a way out of the
Teleological argument
00:20:03.80\00:20:06.88
I mean if you have an
infinite number of universes
00:20:06.91\00:20:09.79
out there, then its not
unlikely that one of them
00:20:09.82\00:20:12.63
could end up like ours
as finely tuned as it is
00:20:12.66\00:20:15.70
for human beings.
Look at it like this.
00:20:15.73\00:20:19.81
If someone shuffles a
deck of cards one time
00:20:19.84\00:20:23.55
what are the odds that
they're going to pull out 4 aces
00:20:23.58\00:20:26.56
in a row if they do it one time?
00:20:26.59\00:20:29.02
Well I don't
know, it's pretty slim
00:20:29.05\00:20:31.34
But however, if they shuffle
the cards billions and billions
00:20:31.37\00:20:35.48
of times, then sooner or later
someone is bound to pick 4 aces
00:20:35.51\00:20:40.16
you know it's not impossible.
In fact it's probably likely to
00:20:40.19\00:20:44.26
happen. Well that's the
argument with the multiverse
00:20:44.29\00:20:48.14
Ok. Now this theory
wasn't as far as I know designed
00:20:48.17\00:20:54.22
specifically to respond to
the question of, wasn't devised
00:20:54.25\00:20:59.18
devised specifically to respond
to the question of design
00:20:59.21\00:21:02.26
you know. But it's sure been
used by some to try to answer it
00:21:02.29\00:21:07.57
Sure, the bottom
line is it might be hard
00:21:07.60\00:21:10.44
to understand how one universe
like ours could turn out as
00:21:10.47\00:21:15.24
fine tuned as it did
to make human life here
00:21:15.27\00:21:19.01
But on the other hand if you
have billions of universes out
00:21:19.04\00:21:23.89
there like ours, then surely its
likely that something like ours
00:21:23.92\00:21:28.06
would turn up. Anyway that's
what's happening here in science
00:21:28.09\00:21:32.72
here science being
used to try and justify
00:21:32.75\00:21:36.53
really what is a
metaphysical position
00:21:36.56\00:21:39.50
A philosophical assumption
that is not scientific
00:21:39.53\00:21:43.37
I have said before that
we need to understand that
00:21:43.40\00:21:46.65
not everything coming
under the name of science
00:21:46.68\00:21:49.06
really is science. In fact I
would argue that it can never
00:21:49.09\00:21:53.63
only be science. There are
pre there are philosophical
00:21:53.66\00:21:57.31
pre suppositions always involved
00:21:57.34\00:22:00.00
Anyway, the bottom line is even
if one accepts this multiverse
00:22:00.03\00:22:05.09
even if one accepts that there
are really millions and billions
00:22:05.12\00:22:09.84
and maybe an infinite
number of universes out there
00:22:09.87\00:22:13.36
then we still got the
question how did the multiverse
00:22:13.39\00:22:17.16
get started. I mean
00:22:17.19\00:22:24.23
How did the process
start that allowed for these
00:22:24.56\00:22:27.41
infinite number of universes
to be created, to begin?
00:22:27.44\00:22:31.32
Well they claim they have
an answer for that as well
00:22:31.35\00:22:36.49
And that answer is
that listen to this:
00:22:36.52\00:22:40.33
that nothing
created the universe!
00:22:40.36\00:22:44.23
or if you will,
nothing created the multiverse
00:22:44.26\00:22:49.29
I'm not kidding you!
There's a popular theory now
00:22:49.32\00:22:52.38
spouted by all sorts
of scientific luminaries
00:22:52.41\00:22:56.30
the popular theory spouted
by them is that our universe
00:22:56.33\00:23:01.45
and hence all the universes
arose out of nothing at all
00:23:01.48\00:23:08.12
and really, in many ways
that's the most logical argument
00:23:08.15\00:23:11.58
these people have
if you're gonna reject
00:23:11.61\00:23:14.76
the idea of a creator God
00:23:14.79\00:23:16.62
American physicist
Lawrence Krause wrote a book
00:23:16.65\00:23:20.53
called "A Universe From Nothing"
00:23:20.56\00:23:23.98
I read it and he goes to
great lengths to argue that our
00:23:24.01\00:23:28.02
universe or even the multiverse
all arose out of nothing
00:23:28.05\00:23:33.91
In his best selling book assured
history of nearly everything
00:23:33.94\00:23:39.33
Author Bill Bryce
wrote the following:
00:23:39.36\00:23:42.44
Evident proof huh?
00:23:54.56\00:23:56.28
What a powerful and self
evident self truth that is
00:23:56.31\00:23:59.52
Surprising that it took humans
this long to come up with it
00:23:59.55\00:24:03.06
Even the man considered by many
the greatest scientist alive
00:24:03.09\00:24:07.27
Stephen Hawking has
argued the same thing
00:24:07.30\00:24:11.19
Hawking wrote "because
there is such a thing as
00:24:11.22\00:24:14.83
the law of gravity, the universe
can and will create itself
00:24:14.86\00:24:19.35
out of nothing. Spontaneous
creation is the reason there is
00:24:19.38\00:24:23.53
something rather than nothing
00:24:23.56\00:24:25.27
why the universe
exists, why we exist"
00:24:25.30\00:24:29.64
Now as silly as all this is
00:24:29.67\00:24:32.59
there's a logical
reason for this argument
00:24:32.62\00:24:36.65
and it has
nothing to do with science
00:24:36.68\00:24:39.43
Remember when we talked
about the cosmological argument?
00:24:39.46\00:24:43.30
Nothing created itself.
Anything that once didn't exist
00:24:43.33\00:24:47.36
but came into existence had to
come from something before it?
00:24:47.39\00:24:50.90
and then something
before it and on and on and on
00:24:50.93\00:24:53.77
and then you get back
to finally something that
00:24:53.80\00:24:57.17
always existed and who
or what else could that be
00:24:57.20\00:25:00.76
but the God of the Bible
00:25:00.79\00:25:03.08
He alone doesn't need an
explanation for how He got there
00:25:03.11\00:25:08.75
and that's
because He always existed
00:25:08.78\00:25:11.42
Now, the only other option
00:25:11.45\00:25:14.25
the only other
source of our origins
00:25:14.28\00:25:16.77
that doesn't need an explanation
00:25:16.80\00:25:19.27
would be the idea that if
nothing created the universe
00:25:19.30\00:25:24.21
right? If nothing
created the universe,
00:25:24.24\00:25:27.05
if nothing is the
source of all existence
00:25:27.08\00:25:30.07
then there's no
deeper explanation
00:25:30.10\00:25:32.97
After all it is nothing.
So there is no need to assume
00:25:33.00\00:25:37.03
anything before it that
could explain where it came from
00:25:37.06\00:25:40.65
nothing in nothing that
doesn't mean anything prior to
00:25:40.68\00:25:45.70
explaining Thus, the idea of
nothing as an alternate, as an
00:25:45.73\00:25:50.90
alternative to an eternal
existing God really is the only
00:25:50.93\00:25:57.67
logical and rational
alternative. And that's because
00:25:57.70\00:26:02.11
only two things in the
cosmological argument don't need
00:26:02.14\00:26:06.40
anything to explain
where they came from
00:26:06.43\00:26:10.25
The first ok, only two things
don't need anything to explain
00:26:10.28\00:26:15.49
The first thing is
an eternal existing God
00:26:15.52\00:26:20.07
nothing explains it
because God was always there
00:26:20.10\00:26:23.41
He always existed.
00:26:23.44\00:26:25.06
so the first thing that
doesn't need an explanation
00:26:25.09\00:26:28.23
to explain Him is
the eternal existing God
00:26:28.26\00:26:32.03
The second thing is Nothing
00:26:32.06\00:26:36.69
Nothing does not
need an explanation either
00:26:36.72\00:26:41.55
So which do you
think is more logical?
00:26:41.58\00:26:48.13
Nothing created the universe
00:26:48.16\00:26:50.84
or a self existing
God created the universe
00:26:50.87\00:26:57.43
Now, the reason I
bring these two points up
00:26:57.46\00:27:02.28
the multiverse and nothing
00:27:02.31\00:27:04.90
Is really to show this
idea of pure, of science
00:27:04.93\00:27:09.20
as purely rational
and objective is a myth
00:27:09.23\00:27:12.62
And in these two cases
we could see where science
00:27:12.65\00:27:16.33
exceedingly speculative science
00:27:16.36\00:27:19.59
is at time bordering on what
I would deem science fiction
00:27:19.62\00:27:24.97
we're seeing it
being used to promote
00:27:25.00\00:27:27.62
what's definitely a
non scientific agenda
00:27:27.65\00:27:31.28
in this case it's the whole
idea to refute God's existence
00:27:31.31\00:27:36.82
Again, I don't think these were
conjured up for this purpose
00:27:36.85\00:27:40.24
or maybe they
were but they're used
00:27:40.27\00:27:42.88
being used to
promote that agenda
00:27:42.91\00:27:45.36
so look at the extremes...
00:27:45.39\00:27:47.34
either that science is
using us to get away from God
00:27:47.37\00:27:50.49
life arose from nothing or from
an infinite number of universes
00:27:50.52\00:27:55.45
wouldn't a supernatural
creator be a logical explanation
00:27:55.48\00:28:00.29
as opposed to these
other scientific options?
00:28:00.32\00:28:03.72