Participants: Alex Schlusser (Host), Rachael Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000025
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00:01 There's a question that moves through Christian circles,
00:04 will the temple be rebuilt? 00:07 Join us today on Back to our Roots 00:09 as we explore that possibility. 00:32 Welcome once again to Back to our Roots. 00:34 I am your host Pastor Alex Schlusser, 00:36 this is my co-host... Rachel Hyman. 00:38 And we are so happy that you joined us today. 00:41 You know over previous shows we have dealt 00:44 in small portions with the temple and the idea. 00:48 But today we're going to talk about an aspect 00:50 that we haven't really touched on. 00:52 And it's a real hot button in Christian circles. 00:55 When will the temple be rebuilt? Or-- 00:58 Will the temple be rebuilt ever? Will the temple be rebuilt? 01:02 You know Rachel, have you had any conversations 01:05 with people with regard to that? 01:06 Yeah, definitely you know, 01:08 there's movement that feels like-- 01:11 I'll tell you the most intense experience that I've had is when 01:14 people come up to me and say, "You are Jewish? 01:17 What are you doing living in United States? 01:20 I mean, you need to go back to Israel 01:22 or else the temple will not be able to be rebuilt 01:24 unless you are there because all the Jews needed to be 01:27 back in their homeland before God has the capability 01:30 of building up the temple once again." 01:32 And I am like, okay. 01:34 Supposedly I am an offence to some people 01:36 because I've chosen to live in America. 01:38 Wow. I haven't had that but I certainly have had my running 01:42 with people that again, like I said, it's a really hot topic. 01:47 We're going to explore several different aspects of it today 01:50 from both the Jewish perspective, 01:52 from a Christian perspective and what does the Bible 01:55 more importantly have to say about 01:58 whether the temple is in fact going to be rebuilt. 02:02 Before we go any further, let's bring out our resident scholar. 02:06 All right. Our friend, our bother, Sasha. 02:08 How are you today my brother? I am good. 02:11 Good to see you, Rachel. Good you see you, Sash. 02:14 Good to see you, Alex. Good to see you to. 02:16 How are you doing? Pretty good. 02:18 You are doing well. 02:19 So, Sasha, our topic today is the temple 02:22 but more importantly, when will the temple be rebuilt? 02:28 Sasha, if we were to go back 02:31 and let's just first start off by talking about a purely 02:35 Jewish perspective on the temple. 02:38 I know that on my visits to Israel and to Jerusalem. 02:43 There is a society that has formed there 02:46 that they are actually reproducing all the different 02:50 elements that the Levitical priesthood would need 02:54 once since they believe the temple will be rebuilt. 02:57 Once it is rebuilt they are gonna have everything in place. 03:00 What do you think about that, Sasha? 03:02 Well, yes, I've been to this temple institute 03:07 and I know very well Rabbi Glick 03:11 who is the director of this institute. 03:15 I've seen this huge menorah 03:17 which they have built, you know, 03:22 on you know, with the money of Vadim Rabinovich, 03:25 the president of Jewish community in Kiev, 03:28 you know, a couple of million dollars. 03:31 They told me about the issues they had, you know, 03:34 they couldn't build it like it says in the Torah 03:37 from the pure gold without having any metal support for it, 03:42 otherwise it collapses on itself. 03:45 Then he shared with me some other issues 03:48 they are having like for example 03:50 they have no idea how to come up with red heifer. 03:55 Right. Yeah, I've read about that. 03:57 They keep trying to have that pure red heifer 04:01 that's required as far as what the Torah says. 04:05 What are they trying to make happen here? 04:06 Well, they need a unmarked red cow. Okay. 04:11 Without any splotches or anything 04:12 because if you go back into Torah, 04:14 it was the ashes of the red heifer 04:16 that were used to purify the Levitical priesthood. 04:19 Right, in rebuilding the temple 04:21 what are they trying to make happen? 04:22 Have the Messiah come back or something? 04:23 Well, this is the very important thing. 04:27 Well, let's not get away ahead of ourselves 04:28 because that's jumping way to the end today. 04:32 Okay. I want to spend more time about 04:34 what actually is happening and what they are doing. 04:36 Okay. Yes. 04:38 What's happening is Judaism is divided in that matter. 04:44 Judaism is strongly divided. 04:46 You have American Judaism such as reform and conservative. 04:51 They do not believe in rebuilding of the temple. 04:54 So about 60% of the Americans Jews, 04:57 reform and conservative don't believe 05:00 in rebuilding of the temple because they are rational people 05:04 and they understand that rebuilding, 05:07 attempt to rebuild something on a temple mount 05:11 will cause World War III. 05:13 So that's what their rationality. 05:16 Well, first people have to understand 05:18 also that the place where the temple 05:20 would have to be build is right where the dome of the rock is. 05:23 Yeah, absolutely. 05:25 So that mosque would have to be removed 05:28 from the temple mount for the temple to be rebuilt. 05:33 Like Sasha said for that to happen, 05:35 it would be World War III. 05:37 You know it's crazy, Sasha, is I remember many years ago 05:41 when the scud missiles were being launched at Israel 05:46 there was this running joke going around 05:48 that one of the scud missiles was going to hit 05:51 the dome of the rock and that's how God 05:54 was going to clear the temple mount. 05:56 Of course we know that that's not what happened. 05:58 Right. That didn't happened. 06:01 You know what's interesting other things about this, 06:06 Israeli government could do it back in 1967. 06:11 Moshe Dayan was there at the temple mount 06:15 with Israeli paratroopers and he consulted Israeli government 06:20 and Israeli government consulted the Rabbinate 06:23 and because they said, what are we going to do. 06:26 We kicked everybody out there, 06:28 should we blow it up and clear the place? 06:30 And Israeli government consulted the Rabbinate 06:33 and the Rabbinate said, no way you are doing that. 06:38 The Rabbis forbade this for two reasons. 06:41 Number one, first of all if you go beyond the wall 06:45 of the temple mount on the-- towards the Olive Mountain 06:50 what you see is a big, big cemetery. 06:52 Right, an Arab cemetery. Yeah. A Muslim cemetery. 06:55 So if they blow it up and start building it, 06:59 from the perspective of Levitical law 07:02 which they have to literally fulfill 07:05 they will all be impure. 07:07 Right because you can't dig back up the dead like that. 07:10 Now, I had heard, Sasha, is this true 07:13 that one of the reasons that, that cemetery was placed there 07:18 in the first place was the belief 07:20 that Messiah had to enter through those gates 07:22 that Jews believe that and that this cemetery was put there 07:26 so that that wouldn't happen. 07:28 Actually, Muslims, well, it is not a problem. 07:32 It was put specifically by Muslims. 07:35 Muslims knew that trick, they wanted the cemetery 07:38 right there to the temple mountain 07:40 specifically to prevent rebuilding. 07:44 What the Orthodox Jews, they do believe 07:47 in restoration of the temple but the Orthodox Jews, 07:51 they believe that they cannot do it on their own. 07:56 Even the people at the temple institute 08:00 who know the blueprint and things like this, you know, 08:04 there's enough brave people among the religious Zionist 08:08 in Israel who could attack this temple mount 08:11 and do whatever they want to. 08:14 It's not the lack of bravery. 08:16 It's the clear understanding from the perspective of Judaism 08:22 that the Messiah has to come first. 08:24 Messiah has to clear those dead graveyards with dead bodies, 08:30 purify the area and that would be a sign, 08:36 a command for them to move in 08:38 with building equipment and start building. 08:41 Now remember, we are speaking right now 08:43 in terms of a Jewish perspective. 08:45 Yeah, that's how Judaism believes 08:47 and Christianity doesn't-- 08:50 Christians really are not aware about this. 08:54 Right. We'll get to the Christian perspective 08:56 in just a few minutes. 08:58 Is it also true Sasha, that there are quite a few 09:00 in the orthodox community, I am talking about in Israel 09:04 that really reject the statehood of Israel saying that 09:09 it was formed by man and the state has to be formed by God? 09:13 Oh, absolutely. Some ultra-orthodox specific Jews, 09:16 they do not accept the state of Israel. 09:20 Even though they live there. Yeah. 09:22 You know they have lived there even before it was created 09:26 but they've lived there for totally different reason. 09:30 They moved in there maybe late 18 century 09:34 and when modern Zionist movement 09:37 which is by the way absolutely secular moved in, 09:41 they opposed them and they oppose them until even now. 09:46 So let's talk a little bit about the Christian perspective, okay. 09:53 Within the evangelical community this is a big, big topic. 09:59 It's based on a dispensational view. 10:04 And it's based on the idea that 10:09 God is going to at some point in time 10:12 is going to remove all the Christians, 10:15 this is the idea of the-- some would call it the secret rapture 10:18 but it's going to remove all the true believers, okay, 10:22 before the tribulation takes place 10:24 and then He's going to turn 10:28 to the Jewish people and whoever the antichrist 10:32 is going to come on to the scene at this point. 10:35 And based on wrong interpretations 10:38 I would say I believe of the Bible, 10:41 the whole idea of the three and half year pact 10:45 its gonna be made and it's during that time 10:49 that the evangelicals believe that the temple is going to be 10:53 rebuilt and that the antichrist, 10:56 whatever position he is in will allow, 10:58 will orchestrate things in such a way 11:01 that the sacrificial system would be reinstated. 11:07 And then at the end of that three and a half years 11:09 he's going to break the pact with them 11:12 and is going to defile the temple 11:18 and then these big wars take place and it's at the very end 11:22 when it looks like there's no hope left 11:24 and the world is going to come to an end 11:26 that the Jews cry out and Jesus comes and saves them. 11:30 Okay, this is that dispensational view. 11:33 But as you mentioned at the beginning of the program, 11:37 it's really predicated, one on the idea 11:40 that all of the Jews are going to be rounded up 11:43 and are going to be brought to Israel. 11:47 And some people feel, some people believe that 11:49 if the Jews are not in Israel-- 11:51 Messiah won't be back. The Messiah won't be back. 11:54 Well, I have always found that a little ludicrous 11:57 that God is dependant on what we do. 11:59 Relying on us, yeah. 12:00 That you know, the plan, 12:01 His plan and that the return of Messiah is based on it. 12:04 Sasha, what do you think about that whole thing? 12:06 Well, obviously we don't agree with that, 12:09 that line of thinking. 12:11 And we're going to talk about in just a few minutes 12:13 what the Bible has to say 12:14 and what we believe the Bible has to say. 12:16 But what are your thoughts on that, 12:17 on that Christian perspective, 12:19 evangelical Christian perspective? 12:22 You know this, this Christian perspective 12:26 is absolutely so far from the reality 12:32 and it has no biblical foundation. 12:36 So maybe we should let start talking about-- 12:39 What does the Bible actually say 12:42 when it comes to the temple being rebuilt or not. 12:46 Well, the best text from the Bible I mean we do have text 12:51 and we have to discuss this, a large prophecy, 12:57 large vision of Ezekiel but look at Matthew 24. 13:04 Matthew 24 is very specific. 13:08 They come to-- the disciple show to Jesus 13:12 the buildings of the temple and Jesus says, 13:18 there won't be stone upon stone on this-- at this place. 13:24 Everything will be destroyed. 13:30 I won't take it you know, too far. 13:32 Some people say that this, the destruction of the temple 13:36 is the punishment for the Jews but it is not any punishment. 13:42 The destruction of the temple is in fact the signification 13:48 of the end of the ritual system 13:53 that pointed out to what is happening today 13:57 in the heavenly temple and what happened on Calvary. 14:03 And it also signifies to I think, Jesus is saying that 14:07 with the complete and utter destruction of the temple 14:09 we will never, you'll never be able to go back to it. 14:12 Exactly. Jesus is very clear. 14:14 And Paul is very clear about this. 14:17 He discusses this under the umbrella of the old covenant 14:22 and he clearly says that the old covenant has to be, 14:29 you know, has to be done away. 14:31 And the heart of the old covenant 14:33 is the sanctuary, the earthly sanctuary 14:36 to open the way to the heavenly sanctuary. 14:40 So when the evangelicals who are so staunch defendants 14:47 of the new covenant talking about 14:49 the restoration of the temple, 14:52 what, is this return to the old covenant? 14:56 Are we reversing the history of salvation? 15:01 What are they missing? Everything. 15:04 Well, let's talk specifically, 15:06 I want to spend a little bit time with Ezekiel's prophecy. 15:11 Why don't you talk some about that to us? 15:12 Yeah, that's the foundation which is used. 15:16 Although I have to say and we'll deal with this. 15:19 The real foundation is the text found in 2 Thessalonians 15:25 where it says that the man of sin, 15:28 son of perdition will sit in the temple of God. 15:33 And so--or if he has to sit in the temple of God, 15:38 then we have to find that temple. 15:40 So Jews has to come back and rebuild the temple. 15:45 And so let's find where the temple-- 15:48 the prophecy Ezekiel 40-48, 15:51 that's the prophecy which is chosen 15:54 for the restoration of the temple. 15:56 And indeed you have here, Ezekiel has a vision 16:02 but where, he's shown the new temple 16:07 and what needs to be done. 16:09 He sees this heavenly being walking 16:12 with the measuring rod, measuring everything. 16:15 So it's basically a blueprint, 16:16 it's basically like Moses saw the tabernacle, 16:20 Ezekiel sees this magnanimous temple. 16:25 To be honest if you look at the Jerusalem today, 16:29 the old city and everything, to actually place this temple 16:33 you have to really destroy half of the old city, 16:36 mostly the Muslim quarter and that's the war. 16:40 And to me it always be like how can this be. 16:46 Evangelical Christianity is always emphasizing, 16:50 you know, non-combatantcy, 16:52 peacefulness and things like that 16:54 and now what they are saying is hey, 16:56 Jewish boys, go to Israel and go to war. 16:59 It's kind of nice, isn't it? 17:01 You know they are not sending their children 17:04 to fight with Muslims you know, they are precious, 17:07 they are sending our children to do this. 17:10 And what I am saying is this is not my opinion, 17:13 this is what the rabbis are saying 17:16 when they discuss this evangelical position. 17:18 This is how Jewish society receives, 17:22 such a, "prediction." 17:25 It's very offensive, you know. 17:27 How come these Christians are telling us 17:29 to go to war for their cause? 17:34 Are you passionate about that, Sasha? 17:36 Oh, yes, I am very passionate about that. 17:38 So how were they-- 17:40 if we're going back to the prophecy of Ezekiel, 17:42 where is there in that prophecy, 17:46 where they're jumping off in the wrong place. 17:48 Well, I believe that the key is to understand the last part. 17:54 You know, you got to read the entire vision. 17:56 It's huge, it's from 40 to 48. 18:00 You can't just glimpse at it and say, that's' the temple. 18:04 Since it was in tribute it should be removed 18:06 because the prophecy is to be fulfilled. 18:09 Well, first of all people don't understand 18:12 the function of the prophecy you know-- 18:15 Or of the prophets. Yeah, of the prophets. 18:17 The prophet is to change the way of the people. 18:21 You know, it's the apocalyptic books that predict the future. 18:26 Prophetic books often the prophecy is not fulfilled 18:30 you know, John is the best example. 18:33 None of it was supposed to be destroyed in the 40 days, 18:38 it wasn't. So yes, this prophecy was given, 18:43 this was a vision that was given to the people of Israel 18:46 to the Judeans which were in the Babylonian captivity 18:50 and that's what they were supposed to do. 18:53 One other things which, why this cannot be applied today 18:58 is it's when you look at starting from Chapter 43. 19:04 That's' the description and especially 19:06 when you go to 46, 47, 19:09 that's the description of the prince. 19:11 Right. Right. 19:12 Yeah. This 46:2-6. 19:16 Right. So let me read a little bit of this. 19:18 This is Chapter 46:2-8, 19:24 "The prince shall enter by the vestibule 19:26 of the gate from outside, 19:28 and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. 19:30 The priests shall offer his burnt offering 19:32 and his peace offerings, 19:33 and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. 19:36 Then he shall go out, 19:38 but the gate shall not be shut until evening. 19:40 The people of the land shall bow down 19:42 at the entrance of the gate before the Lord 19:45 on the Sabbaths and on the new moons. 19:48 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the Lord 19:51 on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish," 19:53 and it's going to go on to this whole list 19:55 of all of these offerings. 19:58 And then finally at the very end, 20:02 "When the prince enters, 20:03 he shall enter by the vestibule of the gate, 20:05 he shall go out by the same way." 20:07 Does this show also then you know, 20:09 the question is, does this passage because 20:13 it sounds like all these offerings and everything 20:15 I guess people want to take this and go see 20:17 this is the prince, is the Messiah 20:19 and look you have all these offerings 20:20 being establish after he comes. 20:23 And what kind of sense is this, 20:26 Messiah offering sacrifices? Right. 20:29 This is not right. That would be weird. 20:31 And who is that prince? 20:34 You know, it doesn't look 20:37 because in evangelical perspective 20:39 it's like the antichrist, you know. 20:44 So is this the antichrist 20:47 or this is the prime minister of Israel? 20:49 Who is that prince? 20:51 I guess the bottom-line is, 20:52 Sasha, that this whole long passage 20:55 of several chapters, is this meant to be taken literal 20:59 which is what people are trying to do? 21:01 This was literal to the time-- But to the people. 21:06 To the people, no, not for today. 21:09 This was a command which Ezekiel was to communicate 21:13 to the people of Israel upon 21:16 when they would come out of Babylonian captivity. 21:19 The problem is that not all Judeans went for-- 21:25 back home from Babylonian. 21:27 Right and we know that a lot of them 21:28 stayed behind even though many of them 21:29 came out to build. And that's the reason. 21:31 You have to read the Book of Ezra. 21:34 In the Book of Ezra they laid the foundation of the temple 21:38 and it says that the number of priests 21:42 who knew the previous temple they started crying 21:45 because that foundation was so small. 21:48 In comparison to what-- Comparison so. 21:50 In fact we have a clear description in the Book of Ezra 21:55 that this task God gave to Israel at this time 22:02 was not fulfilled because only the entire, 22:06 all the people have to come out, 22:08 otherwise there was not enough resources. 22:12 And therefore we have to-- we cannot take it 22:19 and bring it literal for today, 22:22 because as you can see it's just knowledge 22:25 just makes no sense, the restoration 22:28 of the sacrificial system after the Calvary. 22:32 Right. Right. 22:33 Well, we'll jump on that in just a minute. 22:36 I want to go back to that you've already alluded 22:40 to 2 Thessalonians, right. Yes. 22:42 And that is very commonly used 22:46 in the context of the antichrist. 22:48 Oh, yes. Okay. 22:49 As I talked about that He is going to make this deal 22:53 with the Jewish people for the three and half years 22:55 and then he's going to break it 22:56 and he's going to defile the temple 22:58 and sit in the seat and so on. 22:59 See, this is all fantasy which is not in the Bible. 23:03 So what do you think Paul is really talking about? 23:05 Well, the Paul is talking about 23:07 someone sitting at the temple of God, 23:10 no talk about the deal with the Jews, 23:12 no talk about all these defilement. 23:16 Somebody sits at the temple of God. 23:19 What is the New Testament, what is the temple of God? 23:21 Where is the temple of God in the New Testament? 23:24 It's clearly up in heaven. 23:27 Hebrews talk about this, 23:29 Revelation is talking about this. 23:31 So that antichrist affects the sanctuary in heaven. 23:36 And we don't have time to talk about this 23:39 but the Book of Daniel 7, in the Book of Revelation 23:42 Chapter 13 is very clear that this antichrist is a system 23:48 of false priesthood that exist in a church. 23:53 The priesthood that for many centuries 23:56 during the Middle Ages prevented people 23:59 to enter the real heavenly sanctuary 24:02 by creating a counterfeit sanctuary system 24:06 including even the counterfeit sacrifices. 24:09 Right. Well, in previous programs 24:15 we've talked a couple of times 24:17 now about the temple. 24:21 Where is the temple now? 24:23 And when we ask somebody where is the temple, 24:25 we typically get two answers. 24:27 Temple is in heaven, yes. 24:31 But we've seen the temple also existed in another place. 24:36 Temple exist, as Jeremiah said, 24:40 in the hearts to God's people. 24:42 So I guess the punch line is when we say, 24:45 will the temple be rebuilt? 24:47 I could probably comfortably say, 24:49 it already has. Yes. 24:51 At Pentecost, the temple of God 24:54 was rebuilt in the hearts of the true followers 24:58 that we now are the traveling temple wherever we go. 25:01 As I had said in previous shows we are the Mishcon 25:04 which is the tabernacle in the wilderness. 25:05 And that's' what God wants us to do. 25:07 He wants us to be able to move and present 25:09 His truth to people wherever we go. 25:13 Rachel, it's time for a song. 25:15 Sasha is going to tell us all about your song. 25:17 Yismach Moshe, Moses rejoice. 25:20 The song talks about how Moses received 25:23 Ten Commandments on the Mount Sinai. 27:30 Wow, Rachel. 27:31 It's a fun song, uh? That's a fun song. 27:33 Well, that's a vocal workout too. 27:34 Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. 27:37 So when someone asked you the next time, 27:40 what do you think when will the temple be rebuilt? 27:43 You can just patch yourself and say, it already has. 27:46 If you know Jesus, it's in your heart. 27:49 So may the Lord bless you 27:50 and keep you all the days of your life. 27:52 Join us once again as we celebrate 27:55 the Hebraic roots on Back to our Roots. |
Revised 2014-12-17