Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000011
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00:01 What is sin and what does atonement really mean?
00:04 Come join us today on Back To Our Roots 00:06 as we discuss these topics and many more. 00:29 Hello and welcome once again to Back To Our Roots. 00:32 I'm Alex Schlussler, pastor of the Plantation SDA church, 00:36 and I'm Rachel Hyman, minister of music. 00:38 And we're so happy that you've joined us once again. 00:41 Today on our program we're going to be talking about 00:44 sin and atonement. 00:47 Maybe for some people this might be an uncomfortable subject, 00:52 but hopefully as we move through it 00:55 and you begin to understand what God has really done 00:59 it will lift us up. You know, Rachel, 01:01 the whole idea of sin is... it's a difficult subject 01:08 for a lot of people. Yeah, 'cause we have to realize 01:10 we're not great... in a way. 01:14 Well not only we are not great. You know, scripture says 01:16 that "all have fallen short of the glory of God. " 01:19 All have sinned you know. And I like to say 01:22 "What part of all don't we understand? " 01:24 That means that everyone... Scripture says everyone 01:27 sins in thought and deed. 01:29 So it's something that we all have to face. 01:31 Today we want to look at these ideas of sin and atonement 01:37 from maybe a little bit different perspective 01:39 from how people have heard it in the past. 01:42 Of course, everyone understands sin. 01:45 You know, I have always felt that one of the best ways 01:48 to understand sin is that it is anything that we do 01:54 that separates or keeps us from God. 01:57 You know, so a lot of times people have this perception 02:02 that sin... it's these big things, you know. 02:05 It's murder and lying and stealing and all this. 02:07 But the truth is that sin can be being too close 02:12 to your husband or wife in such a way that you've 02:16 turned away from God and you've placed them up 02:19 on a pedestal and that they have become more important 02:24 to you than God. Umm. 02:25 You know, is music in itself... 02:30 Is music wrong or playing music wrong? 02:32 Well, if it leads you away from God then we have to take 02:37 a serious look at it. Yeah, it's funny when people say 02:39 "Well I'm a good person because you know I never killed anybody 02:41 and you know I only tell little white lies. " 02:44 But when we read the Bible we can so clearly see 02:46 that God lifts up such a higher standard for us. 02:49 Yes. You know, Rachel, when I came to the Lord 02:52 many, many years ago and on the day that I was baptized 02:55 which by the way was Pentecost. That was my baptism day. 02:58 Really? Twenty-six years ago on Pentecost 03:02 I was baptized into the kingdom. 03:05 And one of my best friends who lived just around the corner 03:09 from me... he was a Jewish doctor. 03:11 We used to ride bicycles together - um-hmm - 03:14 almost every day. After work we'd go and we'd ride. 03:17 And I had been talking with him as I was coming to know Jesus 03:22 and I was sharing with him on these bike rides 03:25 about what God was doing and how He was growing closer 03:28 and closer through this progression. 03:29 And then it finally came to the day when I was baptized. 03:32 And of course for me that was an exciting... 03:35 that was a powerful, meaningful day. 03:37 And I remember coming home from the service 03:40 and my friend was in his garage. And I, you know, drove home 03:45 and then I walked back to his house because I was really 03:47 excited. And I called out his name 03:51 and he turned to me and the first thing out of his mouth 03:54 was: "I hate everything you stand for. " 03:57 Wow! I didn't even know what to say. 04:00 Wow! And his comment to me was 04:03 "I am a good man. I am a doctor. 04:06 I love my family. I'm involved in the community. 04:10 You're not going to tell me because I don't believe what 04:14 you believe that I'm not a good person 04:16 or that God would reject me. " How'd you respond? 04:18 You know, the truth was Rachel I didn't even know what to say. 04:21 Hmmm. I was brand new as a believer. Sure. 04:25 I think I must have turned white - yeah - because 04:28 I was so shocked... And he was a friend of yours. 04:30 Right... that he would respond that way. 04:32 But you know, that's one of the things 04:34 that Jesus even talked about. 04:37 That there would be times when friends and family 04:40 and those people that we were the closest with would reject... 04:43 And what I've realized as time went on 04:46 that, Rachel, it wasn't that he rejected me. 04:49 It was that he rejected God. 04:51 Yeah. He rejected Jesus. 04:52 And it's also sad that a lot of Jews many times view Christians 04:56 as people who are pushing their religion on them 04:59 and others. And yes, some Christians can be pushy. 05:01 But a lot of the time I mean... For example, you made that 05:04 decision for you. You hadn't even told him anything. 05:06 You hadn't even so to speak witnessed or proselytized 05:09 to him. Exactly. He just felt threatened by you. 05:11 And the reality is there's a lot of Jews who have become 05:14 Christians and also just Christians in general 05:16 who aren't pushy. Exactly; exactly. And you know 05:20 for me if I look back on the things that as a Jew that 05:26 brought me to Jesus - um-hmm - it wasn't the prospect 05:31 that I was a sinner. To be honest with you 05:33 it wasn't that I was afraid that I would be separated 05:36 or I would you know... go to hell... go to hell or whatever. 05:39 It wasn't that all. It was actually 05:41 the testimony of my step- father - hmmm. 05:45 And him being a Christian man. You know, marrying my mom 05:49 after my dad died. Obviously after my dad died. 05:52 But marrying my mom and then seeing the type of man 05:57 that he was. Hmmm. How much he loved my mom. 06:00 Wow! And he exhibited what true Christ-like character was 06:04 before me. And it really began to convict me 06:07 that "Wait a minute... maybe there is... " Something to this. 06:10 "something to this and something different. " 06:12 Right. So we want to start and really get into the meat 06:16 of the program now. And I'm going to ask our brother 06:20 Alexander Bolotnikov, Sasha as we call him, 06:23 to come out and join us. Come on, Sasha. 06:25 Come out. Hey, Sash... Sasha, he's a... 06:29 Good to see you again. Yeah, good to see you, Sasha. 06:31 How are you? How are you? 06:33 I'm very good. Sasha is... we call him our 06:35 resident theologian. But all kidding aside 06:38 Sasha is a... he's completing his Ph. D. 06:43 In fact he just told me he finished all his writing. 06:46 His dissertation's been sent in. 06:48 That must be a weight off to finally have that sent in. 06:50 Oh yeah... seven years. 06:53 Wow. And by the way, Sasha is also an Adventist pastor. 06:58 You're a pastor in the Delaware Conference? 07:00 Ohio Conference. Ohio Conference. 07:03 Delaware Seventh-day Adventist church. Ah, OK. 07:05 I knew Delaware got in there somewhere. 07:08 But... Delaware, Ohio. Delaware, Ohio. 07:10 I didn't even know there was such a place. But then 07:14 Ohio also has a Miami too, doesn't it? Oh yeah. 07:16 Miami River. 07:19 So Sasha, today we're tackling a difficult topic. 07:24 We're talking about sin and atonement. 07:27 And we really want to get into first just kind of an overview. 07:32 Are there two different perspectives as far as 07:37 a Hebraic view of sin vs. a Christian view 07:43 of sin? Uh... Before we get into atonement 07:46 because obviously atonement is the answer to sin. 07:49 But let's talk about sin first. Do you think that there's really 07:53 a difference in how that's looked at? 07:55 Really, from the perspective of the Torah 07:59 and from the perspective of the New Testament 08:02 it is absolutely the same. 08:03 Because John in his first epistle says clearly 08:07 "Sin is lawlessness. " 08:10 God's law is His will for us. 08:14 So life contrary to God's will for us 08:19 is sin. And in the Torah it speaks about 08:24 the sentences if someone transgresses against God's 08:28 commandments. So it is essentially the same. 08:31 Torah and the New Testament... it is essentially the same. 08:35 But from a purely scriptural viewpoint, I understand what 08:39 you're saying. But you know, just thinking back over my past 08:44 even prior to coming to the Messiah 08:48 I don't know that I was taught or that I understood 08:52 sin the way that I understand it now. 08:55 It is interesting that in Judaism the term sin 08:59 is blurred off. In fact, in rabbinic view 09:05 it is more of obligation. 09:08 You either passed and fulfilled your obligation 09:12 or you still owe and you have to fulfill. 09:15 Obligation of what? Yeah? Obligation to do something. 09:18 That's basically... Is that in the context of... 09:21 of doing what God has commanded to do? Yeah, yeah, in a way. 09:24 And also it is viewed as... The other view of sin is 09:29 if you have done something like adultery or something 09:33 this is considered to be a crime and under the Torah law 09:38 it was punishable by death. 09:40 So... But since there was no enforcement in modern Judaism 09:45 this kind of fell aside. 09:48 So there is no emphasis on sin 09:53 in Judaism unfortunately. I can say that I've never 09:56 heard any rabbinic teachings that sin is dealt with 10:01 in the way that we understand it. 10:03 Well, there is one exception. OK. 10:06 An exception comes when the High Holidays... 10:10 at the High Holy Days. 10:11 Because that's when people come to the synagogue - 10:16 as we mentioned in one of our other programs - 10:18 for the prayer of forgiveness. 10:21 And they literally... Yom Kippur? Yeah, yeah. 10:23 Between Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah... those ten days... 10:27 this is the way they come and pray for forgiveness 10:30 of their sins. OK, so we're kind of shifting gears here now 10:34 a little bit and we can go with this. 10:36 Now what we're really talking about... this concept, this idea 10:41 of atonement - oh yeah - because that's where this... 10:44 this comes in. The Yom Kippur even in orthodox Jewish 10:49 tradition points us to the Hebraic direction to the 10:52 ancient tradition of understand- ing how the atonement 10:57 for sin was perceived. 11:00 Yeah. I mean like, so how do they? What's Yom Kippur for 11:04 then if they're typically not recognizing them being 11:08 sinful but then all of a sudden on this day they realize 11:10 they are or something? In a way, yes. In a way, yes. 11:14 That's paradox; that's paradox. 11:16 That's the time people talk about the sin: Yom Kippur. 11:19 Can I back up just a little bit? 11:21 I know that we're moving in the direction of atonement 11:23 but I wanted to touch on one other thing 11:25 when we're talking about sin 11:26 and this is something that I've had some discussions with 11:29 some non-believing... Jews that haven't accepted 11:35 Yeshua or Jesus as Messiah. 11:37 And as a Christian we look back to 11:42 the garden of Eden, we look to Adam and Eve 11:46 and we see that in that scenario 11:50 you know God is walking with Adam in the garden. 11:53 There's fellowship... there's this intimate connection. 11:56 And the Bible describes this breaking of fellowship 12:01 as breaking of connection through the sin: 12:05 through them eating of the apple that God had told them not to. 12:08 And then we understand it that now what this has done 12:12 is this has severed fellowship. 12:14 And we look to it that this is something that 12:17 becomes almost a genetic condition now of the human race 12:22 that we are born spiritually dead... 12:26 almost a way to think of it. 12:28 Also known as iniquity. Right. 12:31 We're not connected with God at birth. 12:33 Yeah, and it is a genetic condition because 12:35 we were created immortal 12:40 and after the disobedience we have become sick and mortal. 12:46 So when people... And it's very common in the world 12:50 where people talk about: "Well sin, misbehavior, 12:54 all of these things. These are cultural things. 12:57 These are learned behaviors. 12:59 That you are born as a clean slate 13:02 and you start off with everything good. " 13:04 And what I've always questioned when it comes to that 13:07 is then have you ever seen for those of us that are parents 13:11 there's always this point when our little son or daughter 13:15 finds their way to the cookie jar so to speak, 13:17 pulls it down off the shelf and it breaks. And you ask them 13:21 "Who broke the cookie jar? " 13:23 and what comes out of their mouth? "I don't... " "Not me! " 13:25 "Not me; I don't know. " 13:27 And my question has always been: "OK, so who taught them 13:30 how to lie? " Because I know as a parent 13:33 you don't sit down with them and say: "OK, this is how 13:35 you get away with stuff: " Right? Right. 13:37 "you learn how to make excuses. " 13:39 No, we don't teach them that but somehow it's just there. 13:43 And I think that that's very representative of this 13:46 fallen condition that we're born into. 13:48 So sin exists. Sin abounds. 13:51 ALL sin and fall short. 13:53 And this condition... these commandments that God gives... 13:56 it is written in the book of Leviticus that they're given 13:59 for us so that we could live. So basically without them 14:04 we eventually die. So people don't realize 14:08 when they talk: "Oh, I am a good man. " 14:09 So do the Jews feel that we were born in iniquity? 14:13 Do they also believe that we're born with a sinful nature? 14:17 This connection is missed because... 14:20 This connection is missed and that's the problem why people 14:24 don't understand however good you can be 14:28 you're dead eventually 14:31 and because of sin. Right. 14:34 So OK, so let's not talk about sin now. Let's move 14:39 and let's talk about what was God's plan 14:42 to fix this condition that we find ourselves in? 14:45 And this really centers all around atonement. 14:49 We have atonement through the sacrifice. 14:51 We also have atonement through the priesthood. 14:53 Sasha, talk to us about that. 14:55 Well this is the way how it fixes and it illustrates 14:59 through the substitutionary death. 15:02 If you want to gain your immortality, 15:06 someone has to die in your place. 15:10 That's how God demonstrated it during Passover, you know. 15:14 Well and that goes back right to Leviticus where God said: 15:16 "Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission 15:19 of the sin. " Exactly. That's the death you're talking about. 15:21 We're talking about the issue of eternal life. 15:25 We're talking from the position that at some point 15:28 we were not created to be dead. 15:32 And so the only way for us to survive 15:38 is someone dies in our place. 15:41 And that's the idea. That's how atonement is introduced. 15:44 A sinner always would lay his hand 15:50 upon the head of the sacrificial animal. 15:56 And it says there in the text 16:00 that it will be pleasing to God to make atonement. 16:05 So that... Now... I'm sorry. At that point when someone 16:09 would lay their hands are they confessing their sin 16:13 upon that animal? Is that what's happening? 16:15 Yes. Eventually yes. 16:18 We have this in the other place Leviticus 16 16:22 where the laying of the hands is a confession. 16:24 But actually the gesture itself of laying of the hands 16:29 is an important gesture in that culture. 16:31 We see how Moses 16:35 laid his hand upon Joshua 16:38 and gave him of his glory. 16:41 So the idea of transfer... So the sinner when he places 16:45 his hand upon the animal he gives this animal that sin 16:50 which he has and eventually the animal has to die... 16:55 paying the penalty for the sin. 16:57 So back then sin was more recognized in Jewish culture? 16:59 Oh yeah, in the Bible... In the Bible in Israel it was 17:05 very clear way how do you get rid of it. 17:08 Someone has to take responsibility. 17:11 And that's why it's... But what happened? 17:13 What happens now... in the Jewish culture today 17:15 they'll say: "Yeah, we don't do that any more. " 17:18 How would they describe today how they're getting atonement 17:20 for their sins? Well... through prayer. 17:23 Through prayer and charity. Yeah, through prayer and charity 17:26 because, you know, we're jumping way ahead but 17:30 you know after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD 17:33 the rabbis had to: "OK, now we no longer have the sacrificial 17:37 system. " God had clearly said the only place they could offer 17:40 sacrifice was the temple there. 17:42 Once it's gone they have to begin to come up with an answer 17:45 to that. But let's go back 'cause I want you to spend 17:48 a little more time with atonement because we're talking 17:51 about the laying on of hands of... to transfer in essence 17:57 the sin that this person had incurred. 18:00 The penalty of death that was upon them - 18:03 yes - for transgressing the law of God - exactly - 18:06 is passed then onto the animal. 18:08 The idea of atonement is someone else takes the responsibility 18:13 for you. OK, so now we're going to move 18:16 and now we have the priesthood 18:18 and there is an additional transference that's going to 18:20 happen. Yes, in fact the sacrificial system is 18:24 more complicated than just one sacrifice. 18:27 We have burnt offerings. Usually it's offerings that are 18:32 offered twice a day morning and evening. 18:36 But then we have sin offerings. Um-hmm. 18:39 And sin offerings are not regular. 18:41 It's when a person - the sons of Israel - commit some sin. 18:45 Something as the book of Leviticus says that he did not 18:51 know and then became known. 18:54 So we're talking specifically now about unintentional sin. 18:58 Because as far as I know - correct me if I'm wrong - 19:01 there is no... built into the sacrificial system... 19:05 there is no atonement for intentional sin because 19:07 if you sinned intentional they just take you out and stone you. 19:10 Yeah. Or before they take you out and stone you 19:13 if you repent you have to run to the sanctuary, 19:15 hold the horns, and make the new covenant with God. 19:19 OK, so let's go back to now... We're talking about the priest 19:22 and the different... Now wasn't there within that there's a 19:24 specific where the priest actually ate some of the... 19:28 exactly... the offering? Because unlike the burnt offering 19:33 where just laying of the hand is enough 19:36 you lay the hand but atonement doesn't count. 19:40 The priest is the one who makes the atonement. 19:43 And then Leviticus chapter 6 explains that the priest 19:46 makes the atonement by eating the meat 19:51 of this sacrificial goat. 19:54 Wow! Female goat... not very delicious. 19:57 So is he... Would it be correct then to say that in essence 20:00 he becomes like a sin bearer for that person? 20:02 Exactly. This is the key part of Leviticus 10 20:08 verse 17. That's where it explains to us 20:12 Moses... It's after the death of Nadab and Abihu 20:18 the two sons of Aaron who gave... 20:20 who offered incorrectly and were consumed. Yes. 20:22 And so all the rest of the priests they're afraid. 20:25 And so Moses comes in and he sees that they're... 20:29 that the goat of the sin offering, nothing is happening. 20:32 He said: "Why haven't you eaten your sin offerings 20:37 on the Holy Place? " 20:39 And it said: "This is the Most Holy 20:42 and it is made for you... it's given to you 20:45 to bear away the sins of Israel. " 20:50 And then in another statement which is the same way: 20:53 "To make atonement for them. " 20:55 So atonement is literally someone carries away your sin 21:01 from you. Unburdens you. And that's the great concept 21:06 what we need. We have a great need to unload. 21:10 To unburden ourselves. And atonement is the process 21:14 how we unload. Right. 21:15 And of course we then understand that 21:20 at God's perfect time the atonement system is then - 21:24 the sacrificial system - is then done away. 21:28 And actually, prior to that... 21:30 You know, I don't know how many people realize 21:32 that Jesus comes and He performs His mission... 21:36 He dies on the cross but the sacrificial system 21:40 is still going for another 40... almost 40 years 21:43 until the temple is finally destroyed. 21:45 But let's talk... Our time is getting away from us 21:49 so quick as it always does. 21:51 Sasha, briefly can you talk about the idea of how 21:55 atonement... What happened with the cross? 21:56 I mean, we've only got maybe a minute and a half 21:59 so we're running out of time. 22:01 Well the fact is that the cross symbolizes the altar. 22:05 And only burnt offering is made on the altar. 22:09 But then the rest of the sanctuary takes over 22:12 especially with the sin offering 22:14 where it's carried into the sanctuary. 22:17 And that's exactly what Jesus is doing. 22:20 Beyond Calvary He goes into the heavenly sanctuary. 22:24 He changes His function from the Lamb to a Priest 22:29 and He is still ministering for us. And literally 22:33 becoming our sin bearer. Exactly! He now unburdens us 22:38 in heavenly... Our sins are taken... He takes it away 22:43 and carries it into the heavenly sanctuary 22:46 lifting our burden. 22:49 So um... 22:53 Boy... Can you really briefly can you answer this? 22:58 Or maybe I'm asking too much. Then is atonement 23:00 completed at the cross? 23:02 Absolutely not, no. Atonement begins on Calvary - 23:07 OK - but it is completed only in the sanctuary. 23:11 When the sins are carried in. When the sins are carried in. 23:13 And that's how atonement... Sanctuary is like a surgery room 23:19 where it takes all the evil things from us 23:24 and operates on us. 23:26 Wow! That's really beautiful. 23:29 So Alex, I believe you have another song for us. 23:31 I do. Adon Hakavod. A beautiful, beautiful song. 23:36 I'm going to go get ready. Sasha, can you tell us... 23:38 tell them just a little bit about the song? Yeah. 23:40 Adon Hakavod: Adon means God 23:44 Kavod means glory. 23:46 And that's a great expression 23:50 how we really contemplate about our glorious God 23:56 Creator who abides in His heavenly temple. 24:01 All right. Thank you. 26:12 And Thou art the Lord 26:17 of glory. 26:21 And Thou art the King 26:26 of kings. 26:32 And Thou art the Son 26:36 of Righteousness 26:41 with healing in 26:46 Your wings. 26:51 And Thou art the Son 26:56 of Righteousness 27:03 with healing in 27:09 Your wings. 27:16 Beautiful. I'm so thankful that there truly is healing 27:19 in God's wings for us. Amen; amen. 27:21 Friends, it's such an important thing 27:25 for us to see and appreciate that through our Messiah, 27:29 through Jesus, through Yeshua, 27:32 He truly is our atonement. He is our sacrifice. 27:36 He is our sin bearer. That's right. He is our High Priest. 27:39 And now may the Lord bless you and may He keep you. 27:43 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you 27:45 and be gracious to you. 27:46 May the Lord lift His countenance upon you 27:48 and bring you His peace. 27:50 On behalf of myself, Rachel, and Sasha 27:54 we want to say thank you for joining us. 27:55 Please come back again... 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Revised 2014-12-17