Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000008
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00:01 Have you ever heard that someday the temple would be
00:04 rebuilt and then Messiah would return? 00:06 Stick around 'cause today on Back To Our Roots 00:09 we're going to be talking about exactly that. 00:33 Welcome to Back To Our Roots. 00:36 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler and I'm Rachel Hyman, 00:38 minister of music, and we welcome you to our program. 00:41 Today we are going to be dealing with a very controversial topic 00:47 amongst not just believers but even non-believers. 00:51 And it's the idea of will a literal physical temple 00:55 be rebuilt in Jerusalem at some point 00:59 before Messiah returns? 01:02 Rachel, I don't know if you've ever heard people talking about 01:06 this but I know that this is a real hot topic. 01:09 Have you ever run into that with anyone? 01:10 Yeah, probably the most awkward thing I hear is that, you know, 01:13 Jesus can't return until all the Jews return to Jerusalem 01:17 and after the temple has been rebuilt. 01:19 That's been interesting. And I've even received some 01:22 personal criticism for being Jewish and staying in America. 01:27 Well I'm Jewish too, but I haven't had anyone say that. 01:29 But I have heard that. We're going to talk about that view 01:32 because there are several difference concepts, ideas, 01:36 and views about the timing. 01:39 Before we get into that I wanted to take us 01:41 just a little bit through kind of the history 01:43 of how the temple came to be from a Biblical perspective. 01:47 You know, we have to go back to the book of Exodus. 01:49 And the children of Israel... they've made their way 01:52 and they're wandering through the desert. 01:54 And it's God who has this desire and He speaks to Moses 01:59 and tells Moses: "Look, I want you to build Me a dwelling 02:02 place. I want to have a place that I will be able to dwell 02:06 in the midst of My people. " 02:07 Which is such a beautiful thing. Amen. God always has this 02:12 desire to want to be with us, to dwell with us. 02:15 So the scripture tells us that God specifically 02:18 gave Moses a pattern. And it's patterned after 02:23 a heavenly tabernacle - a heavenly temple - 02:26 that exists and told Moses with great detail. 02:29 If you go into the book of Exodus, book of Numbers, 02:32 there's beautiful descriptions of all the things 02:35 that God did. And very particular. 02:38 All the ornamentation of the Mishkan which is the 02:41 tabernacle in the wilderness. In Hebrew the Mishkan. 02:44 And how God stayed with them. And as we progress 02:48 through the Torah... through the Bible - 02:50 remember the Torah is the first five books of the Bible - 02:53 as we progress through this we eventually make our way 02:59 to the time of David. 03:01 The psalmist... David the king. 03:03 And David, scripture tells us, gets a passion in his heart 03:07 that he wants to build a permanent place 03:09 where God's presence can dwell in the midst of the people. 03:13 Because prior that it's a tent. 03:15 You know, and I think maybe David's looking around 03:17 at all the other great civilizations 03:19 and maybe he's got some jealousy for his God, you know? 03:22 Yeah. There's always been that tendency, you know. 03:25 My God's bigger than your god... I don't know. 03:27 So David gets in his heart to do it, and God speaks to David. 03:32 Says: "You know what David? Your heart is great 03:34 that you want to do this but you're not going to be able 03:37 to do it because you're a man of war. 03:38 But David, your son, Solomon, I will use him. " 03:42 And of course we know that Solomon brought all of the 03:46 resources together and built this beautiful temple - 03:50 sanctuary - for God. 03:53 Which by the way I think in other programs 03:55 we may delve deeper into everything that has to do 03:58 with that but not in this particular program. 04:01 Then unfortunately, as happened so often, 04:07 the Hebrews are judged for so many reasons, 04:11 and God uses Babylon to judge them. 04:14 And the beautiful temple that was built by Solomon 04:17 is destroyed and the Jews are put in captivity. 04:20 And it's a period of time that they spend there in captivity. 04:24 And then finally God moves upon Babylon... upon the hearts 04:28 of the king and the leaders there and the Jews begin 04:32 the process - through Ezra and Nehemiah - to head back 04:36 and to start rebuilding the temple. 04:39 Um-hmm. And they do rebuild it, but it's never quite like it was 04:43 until we get right around that first century period: 04:46 the time of Herod... king Herod the Great. 04:49 And he really goes over the top. 04:53 And that's why that temple which is the second temple 04:57 is known as Herod's temple. 04:58 And this is the temple that existed in the time that Jesus 05:02 walked the earth. And all the narratives and all 05:04 the stories that we see in the gospels really center around 05:07 that temple. And then, of course, once again 05:12 there is judgment that takes place. 05:14 And in 70 AD Rome completely destroys the temple. 05:19 And not very... shortly after that the Jews are all banished 05:23 from Jerusalem. And it's really not until modern history 05:27 that they're able to return and, you know, Israel as a country 05:32 is established. And we still have the Temple Mount, 05:35 the place that many people see pictures of. 05:38 We see the Jews against what's know as the Western Wall. 05:42 And this is actually the outside retaining wall 05:46 of the Temple Mount. 05:50 There's lots of controversy exactly where the temple itself 05:53 existed during the time... And again, 05:58 we're not going to go really deep into that. 06:00 But at this point I'd love to bring out our scholar: 06:05 Alexander Bolotnikov. He's been with us on our shows. 06:10 We know him as Sasha. 06:12 Brother, why don't you come on out and join us? 06:14 'Cause Sasha will add a whole 'nother level of depth 06:19 to our discussion. Good to see you Alex, Rachel. 06:23 Good to see you, Sasha. Good to have you once again. 06:25 Sasha, today we're talking about this idea of the temple 06:30 and the possibility or the probability 06:34 that many people think some day in the future 06:37 the temple is going to be rebuilt. 06:39 And you know, it's very interesting that 06:41 there's... from a Jewish perspective and from a Christian 06:45 perspective... you know, there's a lot of divergence. 06:47 I know that the orthodox Jews 06:50 believe that for the temple to be rebuilt 06:53 that Messiah has to come back first... 06:55 which is exactly the opposite of a large part of Christianity, 06:59 correct? Exactly. The difference between... 07:03 and many Christians do not realize this... 07:06 that there is a totally different mindset in Judaism 07:11 regarding the rebuilding of the temple. 07:13 In fact, the person who actually developed this 07:18 whole idea in Judaism, his name was in the European style 07:23 Moses Maimonides. He lived in the 12th century... 07:27 11th, 12th century. 07:28 Very famous scholar/philosopher. 07:30 He was the one who actually presented this idea 07:34 that there has to be a war going on between Israel and Arabs. 07:39 And he was actually talking, encouraging the Jewish community 07:43 which at this time was scattered across 07:46 that Jews will be able to gather back to Israel, 07:51 to the Promised Land and then there will be a great war. 07:54 And at the climax of this war Messiah shall come. 07:58 And He shall set His foot on the top of this 08:03 golden dome on the rock, and this golden dome will 08:07 evaporate and He will rebuild the temple 08:12 as an act of a miracle. 08:13 Wow! So, OK... 08:16 Is there? Did he get these ideas from scripture? 08:21 Was there any scriptural - you know - basis behind it? 08:26 Maimonides doesn't have... There is no literal scripture 08:30 foundation for this. And often these words - 08:35 especially in today's ultra orthodox Judaism - 08:39 they're considered as prophetic. OK. 08:42 In fact, there are some ultra orthodox Jews 08:45 who are so dead set against the current state of Israel 08:49 just because they believe that until Messiah comes 08:53 they... it cannot happen. 08:55 Wow! Interesting; interesting. So, Sasha, let's talk about 08:59 what the Bible does have to say 09:01 about whether there will be a rebuilding of the temple 09:05 or not. I know that there are some specific things. 09:10 Ezra has things that he says prophetically 09:15 that seem to talk about the temple. 09:18 What can you tell us about that? 09:20 Well, the largest piece of information that talks 09:24 about the rebuilding of the temple is found 09:28 in the book of Ezekiel. This is a very, very large 09:31 magnificent prophecy that spawns from 09:35 Ezekiel chapter 40 to the end of the book - chapter 48. 09:41 It takes time and effort to actually read through this 09:44 because Ezekiel literally documents his vision. 09:49 And Ezekiel is a prophet of Babylonian captivity. 09:53 The people are there in Babylonian captivity. 09:56 And basically Ezekiel is taken in his vision 10:02 to the destroyed Jerusalem. Um-hmm. And he is led by 10:07 a heavenly being - an angel - who has a measuring rod. 10:13 And basically this heavenly being measures the dimensions 10:18 of the future temple. So like 3-4 chapters 10:21 is meticulous details about... which basically outline 10:27 the blueprint of the future temple. 10:29 So what temple is this prophecy speaking about? 10:32 I guess that's the big question. 10:34 Yeah, that's the big question and there is lots of discussion 10:38 about this because first of all 10:42 this temple is way, way much bigger 10:47 than the one which we know as Herod's temple. OK. 10:53 One other... And that's why many Christians who read this 10:58 they believe that there will be another temple 11:01 after the destruction of Herod's temple in 70 AD. 11:05 This is that idea of a third temple that will be rebuilt. 11:08 Yeah, that's the source. 11:11 Well, there is another source. We may talk about this later - 11:14 in the letter of Thessalonians - 11:16 but it's a little bit different issue. 11:18 But the main source of the Old Testament prophecy 11:23 is taken from that large prophecy because they see that 11:27 such a huge temple was never built. 11:30 But for a Christian to think that there will be a rebuilt 11:35 temple it will present a major problem. Right. 11:39 If you compare the size of the altar... 11:42 They have this dimensions of the altar 11:45 which is going to be in the new temple. 11:48 This is a huge altar. It's like somewhere in the vicinity of 11:53 ten by ten by ten feet. 11:56 This is huge! 11:58 The original was like... no, twelve by twelve feet. 12:04 The original was basically six by six by six feet. 12:09 So it was much, much smaller in dimension. 12:12 And then it goes into all the ordinances of sacrifices. Right. 12:17 Which that in itself presents a huge problem. 12:20 Yeah, for Christians. This is something, Rachel, that 12:23 I have never been able to understand 12:25 you know from many areas within Christianity. 12:28 And they start talking this whole idea that, yes, the temple 12:31 has to be rebuilt - um-hmm - and that sacrifice will be 12:35 re-established. Right away my mind goes to 12:39 OK, so how does this coincide with the idea that 12:43 Messiah is the perfect Lamb, the once-and-for-all sacrifice? 12:47 And things like in Hebrews is how it talks about that. 12:50 This is the perfect sacrifice. 12:51 That it never has to be done again. 12:53 So why would there be any need for the sacrificial system 12:59 to be re-initiated again? 13:01 And such a magnificent sacrificial system. 13:03 What will these lambs and all these sacrifices symbolize 13:08 if Jesus is already alive? Exactly. 13:10 And we know that the epistle of Hebrews talks about 13:14 Him being a High Priest in heaven. Right. 13:18 And even today among the Jews who are actually also planning 13:22 to rebuild the temple but in a little different way. 13:25 I have to notice that there is an institute. Yes. 13:30 It's called Machon HaMikdash: the Temple Institute. 13:34 The Temple Institute. Yeah, I've heard of that. 13:36 And I always take the tour groups to this institute 13:41 and have... My friend, the director of this institute, 13:44 always likes to talk about this. 13:45 And he uses the phrase: "As soon as we get permission. " 13:52 And that shows the difference. 13:54 See, there are many Christians and preachers I see 13:58 who instigate Jews to actually attack the Palestinians 14:02 and fight. But let it be known to Christians that 14:06 orthodox Jews are not going to go up to the Temple Mountain. 14:10 They are waiting for the Messiah to actually come 14:14 first and clear this place up. 14:16 You know, it's interesting you bring that up. 14:18 You know, I've been over there as well. 14:20 And they've gone to the pains to build this giant menorah - 14:24 um-hmm - and all the articles that the priests would 14:28 use. And they have the costume for the high priest 14:30 made and the banner that he wore across his head. 14:35 Kadosh L'Adonai: holy to the Lord. Yeah. 14:38 I mean I have seen all of that stuff, and they really... 14:40 They're ready. They're ready. 14:41 They think that this is going to happen. 14:43 And again, even just the logistics that this could even 14:49 happen. It's more probable that the orthodox Jewish view 14:54 that Messiah would come and evaporate the dome... 14:57 You know, because for that to be destroyed or to move... 15:02 can you imagine what the Middle East would look like 15:05 as far as the war and the things that would happen? 15:08 Just when they've tried to go up there 15:11 all kinds of things have happened. 15:14 And the problem is: actually they had an opportunity. 15:17 Remember the 1967 war? Right. 15:21 Moshe Dayan was on the top of the Temple Mount. 15:26 He completely had this area under control. 15:30 And he specifically consulted with the government 15:34 asking: "Shall we blow it up? Is this our chance? " 15:38 And the government, of course, contacted Rabbinate of Israel. 15:42 And the Rabbinate of Israel said - which is the rabbis, 15:45 the group of rabbis - yeah - and they said 15:47 "No way you're going to do it! " 15:49 Because they knew what is going to happen. 15:52 First of all, they understand that by their own hand 15:56 they cannot do it because right by the wall there 15:59 there are graves... there is a big cemetery. Right. 16:04 So you start tearing this thing down 16:07 you will end up in contact with dead bones. 16:11 And that goes against Jewish law. Exactly. 16:14 By Levitical law you make yourself unclean so you build 16:17 a temple which is inherently unclean to begin with. 16:23 They understood it perfectly. 16:24 That's why they're not even trying to do anything 16:27 until Messiah comes. Right. 16:29 Which I think becomes and is the greatest part of this 16:33 is getting the concept of the order 16:39 of how the Bible speaks about what things are going to happen 16:42 when. Well, but coming back to the prophecy of Ezekiel - 16:47 yes - and that's very substantial to understand: 16:50 that it is not only a blueprint of the temple 16:54 but what happens next. 16:56 Because when it goes all the way to chapter 46 and 47 17:02 we have a change of topic from the blueprint and from 17:07 the ordinances of sacrifice we go into the description of 17:11 the transformation of the land. 17:15 And you see that Ezekiel is seeing 17:18 that outside of the temple - right from the Most Holy - 17:22 right from underneath the ark 17:26 there is a little stream that flows down. 17:30 And it flows out of the temple 17:32 and Ezekiel is led in the vision 17:36 by the stream. And he sees that this stream 17:39 gets deeper and deeper and deeper 17:42 and goes all downstream down to Jericho 17:46 through the Judean desert. 17:48 And Ezekiel describes how the Judean desert 17:51 turns into a blooming garden. 17:55 And then it flows straight into the Dead Sea. 17:59 And if you - Alex - have been at the Dead Sea 18:03 you probably haven't seen any single living organism. 18:06 No, of course not. There's nothing. 18:08 That's why it's called dead. Yeah, 'cause there's so much 18:10 salt in it, you know. It's the result of Sodom and Gomorrah 18:14 judgment. You know what's an amazing thing 18:16 about the Dead Sea? Not to cut you, but... 18:19 I know the first time that I was there 18:21 and you ride the road that's heading down. You see it 18:24 and let me tell you: it is the most beautiful-looking body 18:27 of water. It's got this amazing color of blue, 18:30 right? Um-hmm, yeah! And then when you get up to it 18:34 first of all the stink is unbelievable 18:37 because of the salt and the sulphur. 18:40 You get out of the tour bus and start making your way there 18:43 and it's like: "What is that smell? " 18:45 And then you get down and, you know, you've seen pictures 18:48 of people floating. The salinity is so high 18:50 and, of course, there's nothing living in the water. 18:53 To me that's one of those great ironies: something that 18:56 looks so beautiful yet is completely dead. 18:59 But in the prophecy of Ezekiel 19:01 the water from that stream enters the Dead Sea 19:05 and makes it livable. It desalinates. 19:09 And it ends up with this vision that he sees 19:12 in the area of Ein Gedi all the way down to the south 19:17 fishermen fishing the fish there. 19:20 So you can see that this was a great plan 19:24 that God had for the people of Israel after their return 19:29 from Babylon. So that's what the idea was? 19:32 And that's what this prophecy is? 19:33 Yeah, we talked about the old covenant. How the temple, 19:37 how the land of Israel was supposed to become 19:41 center of the entire - I would say in Christian lingo - 19:46 preaching of the gospel across the world. Right. 19:49 Israel was supposed to be an example 19:52 for all people to follow so that everybody according to Isaiah 19:57 would go up to the mountain of the Lord so that from Zion 20:01 the Torah would come. 20:02 So God had this... God was giving to the people of Israel 20:07 this chance, after all these troubles of idolatory 20:11 they went through... You know, come back, 20:14 come clean, and He would again bless the nation 20:19 so that they would become that model country for the 20:23 entire world. And there in the midst is this picture 20:28 that Ezekiel has of this temple - exactly - 20:30 that provides rivers of living water and so on. 20:34 The only problem was that it required unity. Hmmm. 20:39 Everyone was supposed to leave Babylon 20:43 and go to Jerusalem and start working. 20:47 But you know, in the book of Ezra 20:50 there is an episode when they laid the foundation of the 20:54 temple - um-hmm - the older people who were there 20:57 when they saw the Solomon's temple they started weeping 21:00 'cause it's just so small. In comparison to what? 21:04 Because such a small number actually left the comforts 21:09 of Babylon. That's the thing that a lot of people don't 21:12 realize also is that when... 21:13 When the Hebrews, when the Jews 21:16 left Babylon there was a large percentage that didn't leave 21:20 because they were comfortable. And wow! 21:25 You know, that again paints such a picture for us. 21:29 You know, how so many people... they don't want to come out 21:31 of the world. They don't want to come out of Babylon 21:34 and go to where God has for them. 21:37 Which God was promising to them this beautiful place 21:40 with this beautiful temple with the waters that would 21:43 turn the Dead Sea alive and all of this 21:46 yet they remained where it was comfortable. 21:49 Because of a lack of faith. Yeah. And comfort. 21:52 Yeah, but on the other hand the prophecy is being fulfilled. 21:56 And it's modified... that's where the new covenant comes. 22:00 The new covenant is not only making a centralized 22:05 country of Israel. The new covenant through salvation 22:09 which is offered on Calvary provides the transformation 22:14 not only of the Dead Sea and the Judean desert 22:17 but the entire world. Exactly. 22:19 A new heaven and a new earth. 22:20 So John the Revelator sees 22:25 the river the same as Ezekiel. 22:28 And on both sides of the river there are trees 22:33 that provide fruit for food and for medicine. 22:37 He sees the same thing, but he sees it 22:40 on a scale of the entire world 22:43 not on a scale of only one small country. 22:46 Wow! God's plan is always so much better. 22:48 Right. And you know, it's such a shame that people take 22:53 this idea of God's plan being so much bigger 22:56 and have to distill it down to see it the way... 22:59 you know, in such a limited... Because really when you're 23:02 thinking about: OK, they're going to build some kind of 23:04 re-established temple - physical - on the Temple Mount 23:09 as opposed to what you're describing it is once again 23:12 it's humankind putting God in a box. 23:15 Limiting and not seeing how huge God... what He really 23:20 is going to do. So you know we're getting close now 23:25 to ending it. And I want to... just the last thing here 23:30 again. You know, is... Sasha, does there really need to be 23:35 a new physical temple rebuilt? 23:37 Absolutely not. 23:39 We have a High Priest - our Lord, Yeshua, Jesus - 23:44 who is now ministering in the great heavenly temple 23:48 that cannot... is not susceptible to destruction. 23:52 Right. Rachel, I know you have another wonderful song for us 23:54 today. Why don't you go over and get ready. 23:56 And Rachel's going to be singing a song all about Miriam 23:59 and how as the children of Israel had made their way 24:03 through the Red Sea Miriam led the women 24:07 as they danced and they prayed. 24:09 Miriam Danced. 24:20 And the women dancing with their timbrels 24:24 followed Miriam as she sang her song. 24:27 Sing a song to the One whom we've exalted. 24:31 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 24:37 And Miriam was a weaver of unique variety. 24:41 The tapestry she wove was one which sang our history. 24:45 With every strand and every thread she crafted her delight. 24:49 A woman touched with spirit, she dances toward the light. 24:55 And the women dancing with their timbrels 24:59 followed Miriam as she sang her song. 25:03 Sing a song to the One whom we've exalted. 25:07 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 25:13 When Miriam stood upon the shores and gazed across the sea 25:17 the wonder of this miracle she soon came to believe. 25:21 Whoever thought the sea would part with an outstretched hand 25:24 and we would pass to freedom and march to the Promised Land? 25:31 And the women dancing with their timbrels 25:35 followed Miriam as she sang her song. 25:39 Sing a song to the One whom we've exalted. 25:42 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 25:48 And Miriam, the prophet, took her timbrel in her hand 25:52 and all the women followed her just as she had planned. 25:56 And Miriam raised her voice in song. She sang with praise 25:59 and might: "We've just lived through a miracle! 26:02 We're going to dance tonight. " 26:07 And the women dancing with their timbrels 26:11 followed Miriam as she sang her song. 26:14 Sing a song to the One whom we've exalted. 26:18 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 26:23 And the women dancing with their timbrels 26:26 followed Miriam as she sang her song. 26:30 Sing a song to the One whom we've exalted. 26:34 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 26:40 Miriam and the women danced and danced the whole night long. 26:48 Amen! Rachel, what a great song! 26:52 God is good. Amen; amen. 26:54 Martin, thank you once again for joining us. 26:58 It's been a wonderful program today. 27:00 You know, I want to recommend to those of you watching 27:03 that the next time someone comes up and says: 27:07 "What do you think about the temple being rebuilt? " 27:09 you just look 'em right in the eye and say: 27:12 "The temple will not be rebuilt because our Messiah 27:16 is the perfect Lamb and we don't need 27:19 the sacrificial system again. " 27:21 So we look forward to having you join us. 27:24 Our next program is going to be all about the Shabbat. 27:28 It's going to be exciting. Rachel, thank you so much 27:30 for being with me once again. No problem. It's always a joy. 27:34 Sasha, Martin: again thank you so much. 27:37 And may the Lord bless you and may He keep you. 27:40 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you 27:42 and be gracious to you. 27:43 May the Lord lift His countenance upon you 27:45 and bring you His peace. 27:56 Bless you. Shalom. |
Revised 2014-12-17