Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000007
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00:01 When a Jew comes to Christ is he still Jewish?
00:05 What do the scriptures have to say about this? 00:07 Stay tuned with us on Back To Our Roots 00:09 and learn some interesting things. 00:32 Welcome to Back To Our Roots. 00:36 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler 00:37 and I'm Rachel Hyman, minister of music, 00:40 and we are so happy that you've joined us today. 00:43 Our program today is going to be really, really interesting. 00:47 Rachel, today we're talking about conversion 00:50 and the born again experience. 00:52 And what exactly... what does that mean 00:55 when we speak about being converted? 00:57 And what did Jesus mean when He was talking about 01:01 that you must be born again? 01:03 You know, Rachel, both of us have similar experiences, 01:08 similar testimonies being raised Jewish 01:11 and at some point in our lives God revealing Himself 01:15 through whatever circumstances it may have been. 01:18 And you know, within Judaism this idea of conversion 01:23 is such a delicate thing. 01:27 When we speak in the context of being converted 01:30 from one thing to another 01:33 it really sends almost shockwaves. 01:36 Almost like you're joining the enemy's ranks. 01:38 Exactly. And I remember just even this thought 01:42 that how could I ever do that? 01:44 You know, it's very interesting 01:47 that one of my first experiences 01:50 after I had become a believer 01:53 the natural tendency - and I know you expressed this 01:56 to me in the past - is that we... 01:58 as a Jewish person that comes to Jesus 02:02 it's very hard initially to reconcile 02:05 "OK, I'm now a follower of the Christ... that's Christian. " 02:09 Right? That's what it literally means. 02:11 "And how can I be a Christian and be a Jew? " 02:14 Um-hmm. So I know that I went through this process of 02:17 really kind of pushing that aside. 02:20 How did that affect you? 02:21 Well yeah, it makes sense because Christendom portrays 02:25 Christianity as something that's totally separate from Judaism. 02:29 And so we just grow up with that mentality. And so 02:31 when we see that Jesus does fulfill the Messianic prophecies 02:34 and we accept Him as our personal Savior as a Jewish 02:37 person it just makes us feel like we're joining a totally 02:41 different religion because that's what's been represented 02:45 to us. But then as we study the scriptures deeper 02:48 we can clearly see that "Wow, this isn't a totally 02:51 separate religion. " Right. 02:52 And you know, for me it's interesting because 02:56 I don't know so much that I thought about the religious 02:59 part of it because, you know, we've talked about this 03:03 in previous programs that there is this interesting component 03:07 that exists within Judaism 03:09 and that is that yes, Judaism is a religion 03:12 but it also - being Jewish - is an ethnicity. 03:16 That's right. You know, unlike Christianity 03:20 where you're a Christian and you can be an Italian 03:24 and you can be Jamaican and, you know, whatever it is - 03:27 right - and you would never see yourself as 03:31 well once I accepted Jesus now I am no longer Italian 03:34 or German or whatever it is. Right. 03:36 But when a Jew comes to Jesus there is this paradox, 03:41 this thing that we face: that how can we be Jewish 03:44 and be Christian? Yet who we are at a core level - 03:49 our ethnicity, our culture - is being Jewish. 03:53 Which even though you know my heritage is Italian 03:56 and German I still would probably defer to the fact 04:01 that I'm Jewish first - hmmm - 04:03 and then those other things come. Right. 04:05 I remember very early going into a church 04:09 and a really blessed sister welcoming me. 04:14 And she said: "Oh, you used to be Jewish! " 04:19 Like saying: "Oh I heard you used to be Jamaican. " Right. 04:22 "But now you're a Christian. " Right. 04:24 So when we talk about conversion - 04:27 we're going to get into this in just a couple minutes - 04:29 what really is conversion? Because obviously we're not 04:34 talking about an external thing. 04:36 We're not talking about an ethnic thing. That's right. 04:39 We're not really talking about cultural - no - which 04:42 you know within the Seventh- day Adventist church 04:43 Seventh-day Adventism has its own culture. 04:46 Right. Very much so. 04:48 So when somebody becomes a Seventh-day Adventist 04:51 does that mean that who they were culturally 04:55 gets left behind? 04:57 Maybe sometimes depending on if it goes against the Bible 05:00 I guess. Exactly. Of course. If anything within your culture - 05:04 and I think that holds true across the board - 05:06 is contrary to the Biblical teaching 05:10 then you know obviously those are things that God will 05:12 work with us and leave behind. Right. 05:14 But you know of course... Judaism... 05:16 well and any other thing: being Italian, being Jamaican, 05:19 being German, being French. You know there's components 05:21 of who a person is - right - 05:23 that I think always stays with them. 05:26 And they're never expected to leave that behind. Right. 05:28 And they shouldn't be demanded to either. Exactly. 05:33 We have our resident theologian with us as always: 05:37 our brother Alexander Bolotnikov. 05:39 Great friend of ours. We call him Sasha. 05:41 Sasha, why don't you come on out and join us? 05:43 And we're going to get into the meat of this. 05:46 How are you today, Sasha? Well, I am good. 05:49 I'm glad to be with you again. 05:51 I'm glad to see you're looking good in lavender I guess 05:54 that is? Light purple. 05:57 Our brother Sasha... he is... I kid and I say he's our 06:02 resident theologian but all kidding aside 06:04 Sasha, it's such a privilege and a honor that you're able 06:07 to be with us. Sasha is completing his Ph. D. 06:11 but let me tell you: it's as if he has several of them 06:14 because I've known very few people that have a command 06:17 of both the Old and New Testament 06:20 and the rabbinic writings the way that you do 06:23 that brings such a beautiful perspective to our discussion. 06:26 So thank you so much, Sasha. 06:28 Sasha, today we're talking about this idea of 06:31 conversion and the born again experience. 06:34 And I'd like you to talk just a little bit. 06:37 We know that God instructs His people through the Torah. 06:41 Again the Torah - when we speak of that - that is the first five 06:44 books of the Old Testament but it also can include 06:47 all of the Old Testament depending on the context. 06:50 And he speaks in context of conversion of the nations. 06:55 Sometimes the term goyim is used, and I know that that 06:59 has had some negative connotation. 07:01 But truly the Hebrew word goyim literally means the nation. 07:05 And there's the Jews in the Bible and then there is 07:08 the nations so of course this isn't derogatory. 07:11 So talk to us a little bit about how God through the Torah 07:14 does speak about the conversion of the nations. 07:18 The Torah is very clear 07:20 that the major role - the major idea - why God has chosen 07:25 the nation of Israel is to preach the truth about Him. 07:31 About Him as the Creator of heaven and earth. 07:34 I'm sorry to interrupt you. I just want to back up 07:37 just a little bit and let's clarify. When we say the nation 07:40 of Israel we're not talking about the physical country. 07:43 Right. We're talking from an Old Testament perspective: 07:46 God's chosen people. 07:48 And you know we can use that term. 07:50 Yes. Just so people don't get confused. 07:51 The old, theoretical Biblical Israel. Yes; OK. 07:56 Twelve tribes of us. Yes, go on. Sorry, Sasha. 07:58 So this theoretical state was selected by God 08:03 for the sole purpose of actually bringing the entire world 08:07 into the knowledge of the Creator of heaven and earth 08:12 and His plan of salvation. 08:14 For this reason God commanded to build such a sanctuary 08:19 so that everyone could see in symbols 08:23 His plan of salvation. 08:25 And the only way for a non-Israelite - 08:31 a pagan, because all other nations are pagan 08:35 by definition - the only way to change his/her way 08:40 was to join the ranks of Israel. 08:44 So Israel wasn't just genetic descendants of Abraham. 08:49 We read in the book of Exodus chapters 12 and 13 08:54 that after the last plague - 08:57 the killing of the firstborn - 09:02 there were many, many non-Israelites, Egyptians, 09:06 who heeded the command of God 09:09 and took the lambs to their houses and slaughtered them. 09:14 Well you would think that after God and Moses 09:17 have proved to be right and true with nine plagues, 09:21 right? - yeah - that by the time you get to the last one 09:23 which is that the firstborn's going to die, I bet there was 09:27 a lot of Egyptians and whoever was there saying: 09:30 "You know what? Moses has been right 9 times. 09:33 I'm not going to take a chance on this happening. " 09:35 Yeah, you'd think so. Exactly. Listen, that's the idea. 09:38 God never had a goal in the Old Testament to have some kind 09:42 of a higher class nation and a lower class nation. 09:46 Everybody could actually... But it was a certain way. 09:50 Everybody come in to the ranks, you know. 09:53 Yeah, they had to circumcise their males. 09:56 That's why 14 days were given. 09:59 You know, warning was advanced enough to be able to do it. 10:03 And as a result we know the Bible says... 10:06 Exodus 13... Exodus 12 10:09 great multitudes of other people left Egypt 10:15 with the people of Israel. Right. 10:16 And they integrated into these twelve tribes somehow. Right. 10:22 And that's the great example from the Torah. 10:27 Right. Well and we also know that the way God situated 10:32 the tabernacle and all the tribes around it 10:35 it must have been an incredible sight. 10:38 I've heard estimates of excess of over two million 10:40 people - something like that - right - that had gathered. 10:46 Can you imagine? The tents and the tabernacle in the middle. 10:49 This would have been such an amazing sight for anyone. 10:53 And God really had situated them kind of in the crossroads 10:57 of the known world, right? Where all the trading was going on. 11:00 So people would pass by and they would see this 11:02 which would given them an opportunity to say: 11:05 "Wow, what's going on here? We want to press in 11:07 and find out. " And that's exactly the location where 11:11 God wanted to be the homeland, the country for His people. 11:16 Not somewhere... He could have destroyed Egypt 11:18 afterward and said: "Now it is your land. 11:22 It's so comfortable. Here is this river Nile flows through. 11:26 You have ideal conditions for agriculture. " 11:29 You know even when Abraham and his father Terah left Ur 11:34 of the Chaldees it was in Mesopotamia two rivers: 11:38 Tigris and Euphrates. Comfortable conditions. 11:41 No, God told them to go to this place. 11:44 This is not a really hospitable place. Right. 11:48 Just teeny little river Jordan compared to the Nile. 11:52 You know, rains are falling on a pattern. 11:56 May not fall and you have hunger. 11:58 No, God said: "Go and you stay there 12:01 because this is where everybody crosses this area 12:05 on the trade route and that's how My glory will be known. " 12:10 As we're looking at this progression and we're following 12:14 how God is desiring to bring people and to bring the nations 12:18 in to know Him, to become His people, 12:22 you know I think about from the Biblical perspective 12:27 one of the most beautiful stories about someone who was 12:31 not one of God's people but desired is the story of Ruth. 12:35 The Moabite woman who through circumstances finds herself 12:40 in a situation where she literally cries out: 12:43 "I want your people to be my people. " 12:45 So talk to us about... 'cause I know that along with that 12:49 there's some other parallel stories to that. 12:51 What about? Ruth is a very, very beautiful story... 12:56 a paradoxical story 12:58 of this Moabite woman who married into the Jewish family, 13:04 a family of those who actually left Israel 13:08 to look for something better. They left Bethlehem; 13:12 went to Moab, the foreign land. 13:15 And this woman, and she and another, there were two brothers 13:19 these two women married in. 13:21 And God didn't bless this family out there, you know. 13:25 The father, Elimelech, died. 13:27 The two brothers died. 13:30 So this lady Naomi - a widow - with absolutely nothing. 13:36 No rights, no land, nothing. 13:38 She just returns back to her homeland. 13:41 She wants to just come back, just stay there. 13:44 Beg. You know, be just a pauper. 13:47 And so she says to her widowed daughters-in-law 13:52 "Oh my daughters, I have nothing for you. 13:54 Just go back to your parents. " 13:56 And one decides to go and the other said: "No. 14:00 I want to follow because I see something in your God. 14:04 Your God is my God 14:06 and your people are my people. " 14:09 And actually when she enters with Naomi 14:14 there was this man Boaz who actually got romantically 14:20 attracted... she became romantically attractive to him. 14:24 Just as I have explained: "Just because, wow, you didn't 14:28 see any... you didn't see some riches. 14:31 You made this heroic act 14:35 of actually becoming a member of the community of Israel 14:40 not out of richness but out of utter poverty. 14:44 But somehow God spoke to you and called you in. " 14:48 And you know the story ends with them being married. 14:52 And Ruth the Moabite is the grandmother of king David. 14:57 Right. She's entered into the Messianic line 15:00 even as someone from the nations. It's just so beautiful. 15:05 And it's not only Ruth but 15:09 we have the story before: Rahab - right - 15:12 the harlot, the temple prostitute. 15:15 You know, if she was in Israel she would have been stoned 15:20 to death for doing it. But since she was pagan 15:23 she didn't know better. But when she realized 15:27 the might of God of heaven and earth 15:30 during the time when He destroyed the Egyptians 15:33 at the Red Sea, oh she changed her heart and she went 15:38 and she followed the Lord. 15:40 And it says: "Rahab and all her family" - big family - 15:44 "lives among Israel until this time. " Beautiful. 15:47 And once again we have this beautiful story 15:51 of God's desire to take the people that weren't His people 15:54 in the beginning and to bring them in... to draw them in. 15:58 We're going to jump way forward now in history 16:03 and I want to talk about a story that maybe 16:06 some people would not connect with this. 16:08 But I think you're going to find this very interesting. 16:10 What I'm talking about is found in the gospel of Matthew. 16:13 primarily. It's also in John but Matthew chapter 21. 16:17 And this is the story of Jesus coming into what is known as 16:21 the court of the Gentiles. This was the large area 16:25 in front of the area that was restricted to only Jews. 16:29 That's why it's called the court of the Gentiles. 16:31 This is the place where God allowed the nations to come 16:35 and worship Him... to come towards Him. 16:38 And this of course is the story of Jesus coming in 16:41 and being very upset - putting it mildly. 16:45 Gospel of John says that He fashioned cords into a whip 16:49 and He drives these so-called money changers. 16:51 These are the people that are exchanging the currencies 16:55 from the nations out 'cause these are typically 16:57 the people, primarily the Jews that are coming in, 17:00 and they're exchanging their money for temple money 17:02 so that they can buy the sacrifices 17:05 so they can do the things they need to do. 17:07 And the exchange rate is always speculative. 17:12 Probably to the benefit of the exchangers, right? 17:15 Yeah, and the animals are extremely overpriced. 17:19 Well, and the people had to do what they had to do. 17:21 But Jesus comes in, and we know the story of Him 17:24 overturning the tables, whipping them out. 17:26 And He's saying: "My house shall be called a house of prayer 17:30 but you have made it a den of robbers. " 17:33 But in the other translation it says: "My house... 17:36 My Father's house should be a house for all nations. " 17:38 And this is the real clue that we need to pick up. 17:41 Because what Jesus is angry about is not... 17:45 Some people might think: "Oh, they were buying and 17:47 selling on the Sabbath. " Or... Let me tell you, 17:50 the reason why our Messiah was angry 17:54 was because these people had taken over the area 17:58 that God had set aside for the nations to come 18:02 and to press in to Him and they were excluding them. 18:05 This is why it was called the court of the Gentiles. 18:07 It's interesting. If we look in the book of Isaiah 56- 18:11 um-hmm - where Jesus takes this "My house will be the house of 18:15 prayer... " Which is what He's drawing it from. 18:17 Yeah, we have to read the whole statement. 18:20 The whole statement starts with the fact that 18:22 Isaiah talks about the Gentiles who keep the Sabbath, 18:27 who follows the laws of the Torah. 18:30 And he will be brought to the temple because God wants 18:34 every nation. And talking about the conversion, this is... 18:38 Isaiah is a great gospel I would say... gospel. 18:41 It's not talking about the Messiah but the conversion 18:44 of all the nations. And the conversion is always upward 18:47 to Israel - exactly - to the people, to Israel... 18:52 not out of Israel. Right. Hmm. 18:55 I want to move ahead because I had mentioned 18:57 the gospel of John. As we get past that 19:00 it's interesting what happens now. 19:02 After Jesus has done this the Pharisees, they come 19:06 and they question Him. And they ask Him directly 19:08 "In what authority have You done this? " 19:11 You know, and we're introduced to a man by the name of 19:14 Nicodemus in this story. And Nicodemus begins to speak out. 19:19 Sasha, take it away from there. 19:21 What happens at this point? Well it's interesting. 19:24 The Pharisees are not happy with what Jesus has done 19:28 because He is not of their "click. " 19:31 And so: "Who gave You authority? " 19:34 "Why are You doing this? " 19:35 Nicodemus is the one that usually in Christianity 19:39 Nicodemus is negatively portrayed. 19:41 No, he is not negative. He is the one who acknowledges 19:45 "Your authority comes from God. " 19:49 He calls him Rabbi. Right. Now this is what 19:52 launches this dialogue now that Jesus is going to have 19:55 with Nicodemus that Jesus Himself brings up this idea 19:59 of the born again experience, right? Exactly. 20:01 And Jesus explains to him. Jesus is not trying to rebuke 20:04 Nicodemus and say: "You are so bad. " 20:06 But Jesus explains to him what did He want to illustrate 20:11 in His cleansing of the temple. 20:14 He shows: "Look, even you have to born again. " 20:18 Be born again. "I have cleared the temple 20:23 for the Gentiles who want to have this conversion experience 20:28 so that they would enter into the Passover. 20:31 All this cleansing. Two times it is described in the gospels 20:34 always before the Passover. Right. 20:36 'Cause the Passover was the time - as we talked before - 20:40 that the Gentile enters into the house of Israel. 20:43 He participates from the eating of the Passover lamb 20:49 and now he is the same. That was that final step 20:52 of someone entering in. Yeah, he is no longer Gentile; 20:56 he is a Jew now. "Well, what about you, Nicodemus? 21:00 You were born to it. You don't have to go through this 21:04 stuff. You were born; you were circumcised on the 8th day. 21:08 What about you? Do you think you don't need conversion 21:13 experience? " That's what the message to Nicodemus. Right. 21:17 And He uses the term "to be born again. " 21:19 And of course, Nicodemus is: "What are You talking about? 21:22 I'm an old guy. What are you saying? I'm supposed to enter 21:25 back into my mother's womb? " Exactly, because the discussion 21:29 is Nicodemus feels all right. It is them who needs to have 21:33 this experience. I was born. " "No, you need to 21:37 be born again. It doesn't matter whether you're born 21:42 and who you were born by. " 21:43 And you know, isn't that the bottom-line truth? 21:48 It's true! Because, you know, a lot of Jews are told that 21:51 since they're the "chosen ones" you know that they're 21:54 immediately saved because they're a "son of Abraham. " 21:58 But in reality, that's not what saves them. 22:01 Whether you're a Jew, whether you're Muslim... whether you're 22:04 whatever... Buddhist... you have to have that experience. 22:09 Yeah, the scripture is very clear: 22:10 there aren't multiple ways, there's only one way 22:13 to the Father and that is through our Messiah Yeshuah. 22:18 Through Jesus. And conversion is not some kind of a political 22:21 action. Exactly. Conversion is our building our relationship 22:26 with our Creator: God of heaven and earth. 22:29 Right. With our Redeemer, Jesus. And this really points to 22:33 a really important thing that I think ultimately what Jesus 22:37 is saying even to Nicodemus 22:39 and the scriptures are saying to us 22:41 is that we have to establish - each individual - this 22:45 relationship, this personal relationship with God 22:49 the Father. This was what Jesus was talking about 22:51 with Nicodemus: this born again personal experience. 22:54 The truth is is that you can't inherit it. 22:57 The truth is that there will be no grandchildren in the 23:01 kingdom of God. It's all first generation... 23:05 no matter how old you are! 23:06 A lot of Christians come to me and they say "Oh, you're Jewish? 23:10 You're so blessed. You're the chosen one. 23:12 I mean you're so much more special than I am. " 23:15 I'm like: "Not really. " 23:17 No, not at all. I mean we are all 23:22 sinners - that's right - saved by Messiah. 23:25 So I hate to cut this off but time has gotten away from us 23:30 once again. Great topic. 23:32 So today is my opportunity to bring a song. 23:37 Yeah, I think you have the traditional Jewish song 23:39 MikaMocha, right? I do. So I'm going to go get ready. 23:42 Sasha, why don't you tell us about this song? 23:44 MikaMocha is the song that is taken from the... 23:48 the words are taken from the book of Exodus chapter 15:11. 23:51 "Who is like You, O Lord? " 23:54 Ummm... beautiful. 23:57 All right, Alex. Praise God! 23:59 Who among the gods is like you, O Lord? 24:03 Who is like You? Majestic in holiness; 24:07 awesome in glory; working wonders. 25:08 Who is like Thee, 25:13 O Lord, among 25:17 the gods? 25:23 Who is like Thee 25:28 O Lord? There is 25:32 none else. 25:38 You are awesome 25:43 in praise, 25:45 doing wonders. 25:51 O Lord, who is 25:55 like Thee, 26:00 O Lord? 27:12 Wow! Beautiful Hebrew/ English song! 27:15 Amen. Who among the gods is like Thee? 27:17 Friends, we're so happy that you joined us today. 27:21 I hope that you were touched and moved 27:24 just understanding truly what it means when God is speaking 27:28 of us converting. It's coming to Him 27:32 and this born again experience that is a personal one. 27:36 So on behalf of myself and Rachel and Sasha 27:39 may the Lord bless you and may He keep you. 27:41 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you 27:45 and be gracious to you. 27:46 May the Lord lift His countenance upon you 27:49 and bring you His peace. 27:52 Have a wonderful, blessed day 27:54 and come back again and join us next time 27:57 on Back To Our Roots. |
Revised 2014-12-17