Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000006
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00:01 Today on Back To Our Roots we're going to tackle
00:03 one of the more difficult topics: Who Crucified Jesus? 00:07 Stick around and you're going to hear 00:08 some very interesting things. 00:30 And welcome once again to Back to Our Roots. 00:33 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler and this is my co-host 00:35 Rachel Hyman, minister of music. 00:37 Yeah, and we're so happy that you've joined us today. 00:40 Today we have what some people might consider 00:44 a pretty heavy topic, Rachel - yes - because we're going to be 00:47 talking about Who Crucified Jesus? Um-hmm. 00:50 And I want to tell you that for many people 00:53 this is... goes very deep. 00:55 Of course, it's a very important subject, 00:58 especially as we get into the context of how it affects 01:03 the Jewish people and how they interact with Christians 01:06 and their acceptance of the gospel because of that. 01:09 Um, Rachel, have you had experiences 01:12 from a negative standpoint before we really get into this? 01:15 Well it was just interesting growing up as a Jew. 01:18 Occasionally I had some Christian friends who would 01:20 invite me to their churches. And they were nice people 01:23 but you know I've always heard that 01:26 the Jews killed Christ or we were called Christ killers. 01:29 And I thought: "Well, how welcoming is that? 01:33 Why would they even want me there? I murdered their hero. " 01:37 So it wasn't very welcoming. 01:39 Well I have my story that I... always kind of comes up in me. 01:44 I was very young. I was in fourth grade - hmmm - 01:46 and I remember going out into the playground 01:50 and this girl in fourth grade along with me, she walked 01:53 up to me and she just smacked me - no way! - 01:55 in the face and said: "You killed my God. " 01:58 No way! And it was because she had sat in church 02:02 and had heard a sermon or something, I'm assuming, 02:06 where they talked about that the Jews had killed Christ. 02:10 We're going to get into this, and I want to invite our 02:14 special guest as always our good friend Alexander Bolotnikov. 02:19 We call him Sasha. Sasha, why don't you come on out 02:21 and join us? Hey Sasha. Good to have you again, Sasha. 02:25 Good to be with you again. This is our resident theologian. 02:31 So Sasha, today's show... today's program as I started out 02:35 really can get kind of heavy. 02:38 And you know, we have to deal with this because it's 02:40 an important topic. Today we're talking about 02:43 who in fact crucified Jesus. 02:46 Now the first thing that we want to get into 02:49 is the Biblical account vs. what people believe. 02:55 You know, what people have been taught. So the first 02:58 thing we have this idea that all of Israel - 03:01 and when I say Israel people will think all of the Jews 03:04 in total - all of Israel are guilty of the crucifixion 03:08 of Jesus. That's what it sounds like when they say "the Jews... 03:11 The Jews killed Christ. " 03:12 And that's the first biggest misconception 03:16 to represent the entire nation not just killing Jesus but 03:20 against Jesus. Where in the gospels 03:24 we see account after account so many Jewish people 03:28 followed Jesus. Yeah well let's get right to that 03:31 because the original community that followed Jesus 03:36 come on... they were all Jews. Um-hmm. 03:38 So it's really a pretty inaccurate statement 03:41 to say that all Jews... Well first of all we're talking 03:43 about Jerusalem because that's where it happened: 03:46 outside of Jerusalem. 03:48 So however many percentage of Jews were there 03:50 you know there's a lot more Jews than just the Jews in Jerusalem. 03:55 Yeah, in fact it is interesting that in the book of Acts 03:59 chapter 13 Paul, talking to a synagogue which is 04:04 outside of Judea in diaspora... 04:07 Well, the diaspora so people understand is anything 04:11 that is outside of Jerusalem would be considered diaspora. 04:14 Outside of Judea. Well, 'cause we're actually... 04:17 where we are here as Jews we're in the diaspora. 04:20 We're outside of the land. 04:22 Yes, yes. So he talks there and he specifically says 04:26 that the people of Jerusalem and their chieftans 04:31 they were the ones who actually set the crucifixion in motion. 04:36 So describe... when they say chieftans what is that? 04:40 What would that be? Chieftans means the high priest. 04:43 OK, would that be the Pharisees and the Sadducees? 04:45 Maybe the people that sat on the Sanhedrin 04:48 which was like the governing body? Yeah, we have to 04:51 be differentiative here when we talk 04:54 because there were definitely two groups of religious Jews 05:00 in Jerusalem: Pharisees and Sadducees. 05:02 There were some smaller groups but let's talk about the 05:06 Pharisees and the Sadducees. 05:07 The Pharisees actually represented the poor people 05:13 and they were the ones who taught in the synagogue 05:16 all across the country and even abroad. 05:19 The Sadducees were elite... Jerusalemite elite. 05:23 Very politicized. Very in cahoots with the Romans. 05:28 Right, right. And they were actually 05:31 for them Jesus posed a big threat because 05:36 He... with His sermons He was threatening their 05:40 political power. And the Romans put pressure on them 05:45 because the Romans relied on them for the order in Judea. 05:49 Right. Is it true, Sasha, that the main theological 05:54 difference - since we're talking about the Pharisees and the 05:56 Sadducees - I'm sure there was a lot 05:58 but the one that's most commonly spoken of was the fact 06:01 that the Pharisees believed in the bodily resurrection 06:05 of the dead whereas the Sadducees did not. 06:08 Is that correct? Yes, this is what's written in the 06:11 New Testament and it proves one thing... 06:14 and I don't have time to go into the entire history of this... 06:17 but to explain it simply is this: 06:19 the word Pharisee means the interpreter of the scripture. 06:25 OK. And Pharisees were teachers 06:28 who for the past about 150 years 06:32 taught the Torah to the simple people around Judea. 06:37 Sadducees were the ones who were rich people. 06:41 They were very Hellenized. 06:43 They accepted lots of Greek Hellenistic traditions. 06:47 Yeah, they wanted to compromise between the outside paganism 06:52 and Judaism. They wanted Judaism to sort of blend into 06:57 the general Hellenistic world 07:00 which was established especially after Alexander the Great. 07:03 Right. So basically what happened 07:07 you see in the New Testament fierce verbal discussions 07:13 between Jesus and Pharisees. Um-hmm. 07:15 Because Pharisees envied Jesus' authority 07:19 as the rabbi. He was not one of them. 07:22 He didn't teach on their authority. 07:25 A few times they asked: "Who gives You the right 07:29 to do the miracles? " Because they really are upset 07:34 that He didn't study with any of the rabbis. 07:37 Sadducees come from a different angle. 07:41 They say: "His preaching will raise rebellion 07:45 and the Romans will remove us 07:47 from being their puppet government. " 07:51 So really this in essence comes down to fighting over power. 07:55 Um-hmm. And you know, it's a sad thing when we think about 07:59 this first century period. You know, we have the great 08:02 Herodian temple that all the sacrifices and everything 08:07 is going on, but really in this period it's just a shadow 08:10 of really what it was. The ark of the covenant 08:13 is no longer there. And it really almost becomes 08:17 this puppet religious figure that's there. 08:21 Even as far as the high priest at this point, right? 08:24 Well exactly. Because the high priest is someone who's really 08:26 more under the thumb of Rome 08:28 than this is a religious institution. 08:31 Well to begin with Herod the Great... 08:34 king Herod the Great was not a Jew. He was Edomian. 08:38 The Edomians are the descendants of Esau. 08:42 He converted to Judaism for political reasons 08:45 because he wanted to stay in power. 08:48 Then you have this high priest. 08:51 Today... I mean, later in Jewish tradition 08:55 Talmud strongly questions whether... 08:58 Let me... sorry to cut you out but just Talmud is the 09:01 oral law that's been written down. We've talked about that 09:05 in the past. Go ahead. Yeah, but the Jewish tradition 09:07 questions the Aaronic descent 09:12 of Annas and Caiaphas... two high priests. 09:17 They were brought in politically. 09:20 Josephus in his history questions their Aaronic origin. 09:26 Lineage, yeah. So in other words they're saying 09:29 that these guys that have ascended, that are sitting 09:32 in this high priest role, 09:34 aren't of the Aaronic line which is what God had established 09:37 that it would be a priesthood forever 09:39 under the descendants of Aaron. 09:41 Exactly. And what is actually happening 09:45 is the whole story of crucifixion 09:49 is set in motion after the resurrection of Lazarus. 09:55 And that's what sets the Sadducees... gives them 10:00 a big anger. Because as you mentioned 10:03 they were against the resurrection. 10:06 Which you know what's interesting... We're leading 10:08 into this. You know, our next question is going to be 10:10 and you've already started, Sasha: who in fact 10:13 initiated the crucifixion? 10:16 And then the bigger question is why. But it's interesting 10:19 as we unfold this how what the Sadducees 10:24 in fact are fighting against in the long run really comes 10:27 back to even bite them more once they... 10:31 You talked about how it was initiated by the resurrection 10:33 of Lazarus. And since the Sadducees did not believe 10:37 in the resurrection as soon as there's this idea 10:40 that Lazarus is raised from the dead well it's really flying 10:43 in the face of everything that they taught. 10:45 Well what John... and the gospel of John is the great gospel 10:50 to read about this because it unfolds the debate. 10:55 John at first shows the debates of Jesus with Pharisees. 10:58 But then the main point - the highlight of this debate - 11:02 is His divinity. 11:05 Because Jesus was not interested in being recognized as just 11:09 a human Messiah. He is really pointing to the fact 11:14 that He is divine. 11:16 In fact in John chapter 10 during the holiday of Hanukkah 11:22 which is a historical Jewish holiday 11:25 He comes in straight forward and He says: "I and the Father 11:30 are One. " 11:32 And so the temple people, the Pharisees and Sadducees both... 11:37 both got upset about this. They take stones and want to 11:42 stone Him for blasphemy. 11:45 In fact blasphemy comes back in Matthew 11:49 because that's what He was actually indicted with, 11:54 you know, by the Sanhedrin. 11:56 But at this time - at the time of the feast of Hanukkah 12:02 or it's feast of dedication in English Bibles - 12:05 it is left like hanging, you know. So December passes 12:10 and so we come closer to the end of the winter 12:14 to the beginning of the Passover season. 12:16 And then we have Jesus back in Jerusalem and He is in Bethany. 12:21 And here His friend Lazarus dies and He comes straight then. 12:26 And He has this great miracle of resurrection. 12:29 And this chapter has a great proof - chapter 11. 12:33 Says after this many Jews believed this. 12:37 You know an interesting thing too, Sasha: doesn't... 12:39 He waits for three days. Um-hmm. Right? 12:41 Which there's a whole rabbinic connotation behind that. 12:44 That's not just coincidence that He waits three days, right? 12:47 Oh yeah. Isn't it true that within the understanding - 12:50 rabbinic understanding of the day - that you had to be dead 12:53 three days to be really dead. Yeah exactly. 12:56 Otherwise you could be considered just clinically dead. 13:00 Partially dead. Yeah... and come back. 13:03 And now he is really dead... he smells! 13:05 So Jesus waited until Lazarus was "really dead" 13:09 before He came. Which again that just comes right back 13:13 at what the Sadducees believed that there was no resurrection. 13:17 And here's Jesus raising Lazarus. 13:20 And it flies in the face of Pharisees 13:22 because actually by raising Lazarus from the dead 13:26 He proves the point that He and the Father are One. 13:29 That He has the power to raise people from the dead. 13:33 In fact, He does it not through the prayer. 13:37 He just does it, you know. Tells: "Lazarus, come forth! " 13:40 Boom. Right. So it's His own power, not... 13:44 So now we have the Sadducees to a greater extent 13:48 and the Pharisees as well 13:49 seeing the things that Jesus is doing. 13:53 And raising Lazarus - which goes absolutely against 13:58 one of the main tenets, one of the main things that 14:01 they believe, and they see their power being relieved from them. 14:05 So this is where we get to... You know, they are really 14:08 the ones now that initiate this move towards the crucifixion 14:14 through Rome, right? Because they didn't have 14:16 power to sentence someone to death, so they had to 14:19 create a scenario so that they could present 14:22 them to Rome... to Pilate. 14:24 And it is interesting again when we see the reaction of 14:28 the Sadducees and the high priests 14:30 to the fact that so many Jews 14:33 started to follow Jesus. They were really scared that 14:36 they're going to lose the power and authority. 14:40 And so Caiaphas - the high priest - 14:44 was the one who initiated this idea of one person 14:48 dying for the entire nation to save the nation. 14:53 And that's when John says: "Oh he didn't really know 14:56 what he was talking about" 'cause in reality 14:59 that was the mission of Jesus: to die for people. 15:04 He spoke prophetically and not even knowing it. Yes. 15:06 So the Jewish government at that time, 15:11 they don't have the power - as I said, right? - to... 15:14 They can't sentence someone to death 15:16 so they have to turn to Rome. 15:19 Yeah. Before they do this, of course, they have to 15:22 convict an individual 15:25 in the crime which would lead to a capital offense. 15:30 And then there had to be a capital offense then 15:34 for them to present it to Rome - yeah - and appeal for 15:36 capital punishment. And they had difficulty 15:40 because according to Jewish tradition - and it's very clear 15:44 that the Sanhedrin was supposed to present a fair trial. 15:49 It was very rare when an individual would be convicted 15:54 in a capital offense. It was a special set of procedures. 15:59 There had to be at least two witnesses 16:04 that would be true witnesses. Right. And according 16:08 to the Jewish tradition later recorded in the Talmud 16:12 and Mishnah, these two witnesses were the ones who were supposed 16:16 to start throwing the stones at the criminal. 16:22 So the trial of Jesus which we see recorded in 16:26 Matthew 26 does not concur 16:31 with any of the Jewish laws. 16:33 It was extremely political. 16:35 It was very... you know, was like during the Communist era 16:40 they did it. So I wonder, Sasha, and I don't know if you can 16:43 answer this, I'm just thinking. At this point... 16:47 was there any precedence or is there any history 16:50 where the Sanhedrin - which is the Jewish legislature, 16:54 the Jewish governing body - 16:56 where they had appealed to Rome 16:58 in the case like what they did with Jesus for the crucifixion? 17:02 Had they ever done that before? Do you know? 17:04 We don't have any of the records like this. 17:07 We know when Jews used to have kings, 17:11 you know, after the Maccabean revolts 17:13 the kings would approve the execution. 17:17 But since Herod took the power and he was representative 17:22 of the occupational forces 17:25 and plus Pilate was in there - He was the governor - 17:28 who was the governor... So we don't know what was going on 17:33 but it was very... Usually Romans were the ones 17:37 who were executing criminals for a kind of rebellion, 17:41 treason. And you know, another thing: 17:44 I'm sure that most people at least are somewhat familiar 17:47 that when it goes to Pilate, he even tries 17:52 to push it away because you know the tradition says 17:56 that at that time during the feast they would release 18:00 somebody who was condemned. And then we have this whole idea 18:03 of Barabbas, right? - yes - that is brought in 18:08 that Pilate tries to... "Here, we have this murdering 18:12 criminal vs. Jesus: which one do you want to set free? " 18:17 And you know, the accounts say that they start screaming 18:20 "Give us Barabbas. " 18:22 Which seems to be another one of those proverbial nails 18:26 that says: "Look how the Jews responded. 18:28 Here even was an opportunity. " 18:30 But again I think as we read the accounts 18:32 it's probably such a small percentage that are like 18:36 the rabble rousers. Exactly. These are the members... 18:39 See, the Sanhedrin was called hastily, so there was not 18:45 enough members. Mainly also the members of the Sanhedrin 18:49 were Roman-appointed Sadducees 18:53 with two or three Pharisees. 18:56 Like we hear about Joseph of Arimathea. 18:59 We hear about Nicodemus. There were a few Pharisees 19:02 that sat on this governing body: 19:06 the chief Sanhedrin. 19:07 And so then these people come into the courtyard 19:13 where Pilate's residence is. 19:16 And as I'm sure you're aware going through these places 19:21 around Via Dolorosa in the old city of Jerusalem 19:24 no more than 50 people could fit into any of the courtyards. 19:30 It's a very small... They're so small. 19:33 So it is absolutely impossible even to infer 19:37 that the entire Israel was behind these people. 19:41 So let me switch over as our time is winding down 19:45 once again so fast. 19:47 You know, Sasha, over the years since I've been a believer 19:51 as I've thought back to those years prior to being a believer 19:55 some of the things that were said to me as a Jew 19:58 and now really understanding the truth of the gospel 20:01 is that, you know, if we don't understand 20:05 that it was our individual sin that put Him on the cross 20:10 we can't find atonement in what He did on the cross. 20:14 So the really sad thing is that whenever somebody 20:18 is pointing the fingers at the Jews and saying: 20:20 "Oh, it was the Jews that killed Jesus! " 20:23 then they're missing the whole point of gospel, 20:27 of the atonement. And I know that in subsequent shows, 20:30 Sasha, we're going to really get into this whole concept of 20:32 atonement, so... In fact, those who point out 20:36 to someone else trying to find an individual 20:40 guilty in the crucifixion of Jesus 20:43 in fact basically asserts his or her own sinlessness. 20:49 Because Jesus came to die voluntarily for our sins. 20:54 If it is not our sin who killed Jesus, 20:57 then I am sinless... and that's the biggest offense 21:01 in the eyes of God. Right. Wow! 21:04 And scripture really clearly says that "All have sinned 21:08 and fallen short of the glory of God. " 21:11 So just to kind of wrap this up now, let's look at 21:15 a couple things, Sasha. I wanted you to talk just 21:17 a little bit about how does the New Testament address those 21:21 that are really behind the crucifixion of Jesus? 21:25 You know, we have the gospel of John. We have Acts. 21:28 Let me start with Acts because I inferred to this 21:32 how what the Sadducees did in fact kind of backfired on them. 21:37 Because if in fact one of the real issues they had 21:41 was that Jesus at first taught about the resurrection 21:45 and did it through Lazarus. Well now once Jesus is crucified 21:51 and Jesus is placed in the tomb and He resurrects 21:54 then we have in the book of Acts we have Peter and John 21:58 coming in and basically talking to the Sanhedrin 22:02 there in the beginning of the book of Acts 22:04 and saying: "Look this is Jesus, the very guy that you crucified, 22:08 that you put to death. He has been resurrected. " 22:12 So everything that they did to try and silence it 22:15 now it even comes back a hundred-fold bigger to them. 22:18 And there is a two-fold issue about when Peter and the other 22:23 apostles talk about the crucifixion of Jesus. 22:26 Peter address the Sanhedrin: "You crucified Jesus. " 22:29 And Peter addresses the crowd at the feast of Pentecost. 22:34 Exactly. This is the crowd of pilgrims who even weren't there 22:39 when Jesus was crucified. Exactly, exactly. 22:42 The fact is there are two different responses: 22:45 the Sanhedrin who is guilty in doing this 22:48 is really going against Peter and the people 22:52 who came as pilgrims as a result the Acts says 22:57 when they heard this they said: "Brethren, what shall we do 23:01 now? " Exactly. The message of the cross, guys, 23:04 it's all about our Messiah... Him dying for us 23:08 and for the world. Rachel, I know you have 23:09 a beautiful song for us. Why don't you go get ready? 23:11 All right. Sasha, tell us about this song Dona Dona. 23:14 Yeah. Dona Dona means Adonai Adonai. 23:17 Lord, Lord. It's a song about the suffering and freedom. 23:22 Ah, OK. Rachel, let's hear this beautiful song. 23:38 On the wagon bound for market 23:43 there's a calf with a mournful eye. 23:48 High above him there's a swallow 23:52 winging swiftly through the sky. 23:57 How the winds are laughing. 24:01 They laugh with all their might. 24:06 Laugh and laugh the whole day through 24:10 and half the summer's night. 24:13 Dona Dona... Dona Dona Dona Dona. 24:19 Dona Dona Dona. 24:24 Dona Dona Dona Dona... 24:29 Dona Dona Donai. 24:36 "Stop complaining" said the farmer 24:41 "who told you a calf to be? 24:45 Why don't you have wings to fly with 24:50 like the swallow so proud and free? " 24:55 How the winds are laughing. 24:59 They laugh with all their might. 25:04 Laugh and laugh the whole day through 25:08 and half the summer's night. 25:11 Dona Dona... Dona Dona Dona 25:15 Dona. 25:17 Dona Dona Dona. 25:22 Dona Dona Dona Dona... 25:27 Dona Dona Donai. 25:34 Calves are easily bound and slaughtered 25:39 never knowing the reason why. 25:44 But whoever treasures freedom 25:48 like the swallow has learned to fly. 25:53 How the winds are laughing. 25:57 They laugh with all their might. 26:02 Laugh and laugh the whole day through 26:06 and half the summer's night. 26:11 Dona Dona Dona Dona... 26:16 Dona Dona Dona. 26:21 Dona Dona Dona Dona... 26:26 Dona Dona Donai. 26:31 Dona Dona 26:32 Donai. 26:42 Rachel, thank you. What a beautiful song. 26:44 And Martin, once again thank you. 26:47 It's great joy to have you with us. 26:49 Friends, we want to thank you so much for joining us 26:52 once again. Today was not one of the easiest 26:55 topics that we will deal with. It strikes a deep chord 26:59 in so many people, Rachel, you know. 27:01 But it's an important thing because the message of the cross 27:05 scripture does say it's an affront 27:08 and sometimes it's hard for people to hear. 27:10 But it's all about the price that Jesus paid for each one 27:14 of us. And each one of us put Him on that cross 27:18 through our sin. So it wasn't the Jews. It wasn't the Muslims. 27:21 It wasn't... It was all of us. All of us. 27:24 And we have to accept that. Um-hmm. 27:26 So once again we want to thank you for joining us. 27:29 And please, please: thank God for the blessings that 27:34 He gives us every day. And may the Lord bless you. 27:37 May He keep you. And may the Lord make His face 27:39 to shine upon you and be gracious to you. 27:41 And may the Lord lift His countenance upon you 27:44 and bring you His peace. 27:46 So once again on behalf of my co-host, Rachel, 27:49 I'm Pastor Alex and we want to thank you for joining us. 27:52 We'll see you next time on Back To Our Roots. |
Revised 2014-12-17