Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000005
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00:01 Why do some Jews reject the idea of Jesus being the Messiah?
00:06 Is salvation through the Messiah a Christian concept? 00:11 Well stay tuned with us on Back To Our Roots 00:13 and we'll find out. 00:35 Well welcome once again to Back To Our Roots. 00:39 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler and I'm Rachel Hyman, 00:41 minister of music, and we're so happy that you've joined us 00:45 once again. Today we are going to be discussing 00:48 Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? Um-hmm. 00:54 Boy I can tell you, Rachel, this is something that 00:57 going back - knowing what I do now - 01:01 um-hmm - I would have never thought it when I was younger. 01:03 If anything, it was exactly the opposite. 01:06 You know, I grew up in a situation growing up 01:09 in a Jewish home in south Florida where the last thing 01:14 I would have thought was Jesus had anything to do with the 01:17 Jewish people. Exactly. You know, in fact, as crazy as it is 01:21 I remember all the negative things that were said - 01:25 family members and so on - when they talked about Jesus. 01:28 And I had this picture in my mind of who Jesus was. 01:33 And of course the last thing would have been that He was 01:35 Jewish. Yeah. You know, this picture that you see 01:38 all the time of Jesus with blue eyes and blonde hair... 01:42 And I have to tell you it was quite a shock to me 01:46 the first time that God led me to the New Testament 01:49 and I opened it up. And I began to read 01:51 and heard Jesus weeping over His people, over Jerusalem 01:55 in Matthew. Like "Hey, that's me! " 01:58 Yeah, and then flipping back the pages and reading in the 02:01 beginning of Matthew the lineage of Jesus 02:03 that clearly shows that He is of David and He is Jewish! 02:08 What a surprise that was to me. Hmmm. For most Jewish people - 02:13 yes - the way Christendom portrays Him. Absolutely. 02:17 And you know, that's really a sad thing because 02:19 I think that, you know, as a Jew 02:22 when God started opening my eyes spiritually 02:26 the first place I should have gone was to the Jewish Messiah. 02:30 And truthfully after many years of seeking and searching 02:35 that was the last place I went. Um-hmm. 02:38 You know the interesting thing about that is as I looked at 02:43 all these different religions as I was awakening, 02:46 as God was calling to me I realize now, 02:49 all the truths, all the things within these different religions 02:52 that grabbed me as I began to read the gospels 02:56 and read Jesus' words I began to see that all of those truths 03:00 were contained in Him. 03:01 Where all of these other religions had little pieces 03:03 He was the fullness of it all. Yes. 03:07 So as I said, today we're going to be talking about 03:10 Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. 03:13 And specifically we're going to be looking at... 03:16 at scriptures - at the Old Testament today. 03:18 What does the Old Testament say about the Messiah? 03:23 We're also going to be talking about from a Jewish perspective 03:26 and from the ancient rabbinic writings, how did they speak 03:32 about Messiah? So before we get much deeper into this 03:37 we want to welcome - as we do every time - 03:40 our Ukrainian friend, our resident theologian: 03:43 our brother Alexander Bolotnikov. 03:46 We call him Sasha. Brother, please come join us. 03:48 And once again we welcome you. 03:51 Good to be with you again. Yes. Rachel. 03:54 How have you been, Sasha? Have you been well? 03:55 Well... doing fairly well. You know we haven't mentioned 03:58 so far in any of the programs but Sasha is a proud new papa. 04:02 Yeah, yeah. My son is almost four months old. 04:06 Yes, yes. Proud new papa. 04:09 So if he looks a little tired sometimes that's the reason why. 04:14 So Sasha, today we're talking about 04:18 Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. 04:21 And we want to start exploring actually what 04:26 does the Torah speak in terms of Messiah. 04:31 And I know that we can go all the way to barashi, 04:34 to Genesis. And really that's the first indication 04:38 that God has a plan that is going to redeem His people. 04:43 Yeah. We can start with the famous statement 04:48 in Genesis 3:16 about the 04:53 Seed of the woman. And it is interesting how 04:56 some scholars noticed this expression 05:01 which occurs only once in the entire Old Testament 05:06 because the woman doesn't have "seed. " 05:08 So... And this Seed 05:12 is referred in Hebrew as He. 05:15 So there is some hints already there 05:19 about an interesting way 05:22 of dealing with the serpent, Satan. 05:27 But the main definition of the Messiah 05:31 comes from the book of Isaiah. 05:34 Actually everything about the Messiah - exactly - is... 05:38 we can find in the book of Isaiah. 05:40 And Isaiah 61. Right. That's the key 05:45 to understand what this word Messiah... 05:49 how we say it in English - Mashiach 05:51 how it is in Hebrew itself. 05:56 But the English equivalent of it is "the Anointed One. " 06:01 And what the Anointed One actually indicates 06:06 Isaiah 61 says... and it's not Isaiah definitely 06:11 speaking because Isaiah wasn't the "Anointed One, " 06:14 but he speaks in the first person saying this: 06:20 "The spirit of the Lord God is upon Me 06:25 and with Him... " with the spirit means... 06:30 "He anointed Me to bring good news to the afflicted 06:35 and to declare the Jubilee year. " 06:41 The acceptable year. The acceptable year, that's 06:44 where everything is forgiven: all debts, 06:47 all claims are let go. 06:49 So this is actually the definition of the Messiah. 06:53 Someone has to come who is anointed by the divine spirit. 06:59 And this is important 07:01 because often the rabbis would say: 07:04 "Oh there are many anointed ones. " 07:07 Uh-huh. The kings, the priests were anointed. 07:09 But they were anointed with oil. 07:12 This one is anointed with God's spirit 07:16 and that's what's making Him the REAL Messiah. 07:20 Unlike king is a Messiah... one of many kings, 07:24 one of many. This one is unique. Right. 07:26 So, not to get way ahead of ourselves 07:29 but you know as soon as you start speaking of Isaiah 61 07:32 right away my mind goes to Jesus being called 07:36 to read from the Torah. 07:38 And He actually takes the prophets - the reading from 07:41 the prophets for that day. 07:42 And He quotes Isaiah 61. He reads it 07:45 but then He says: "In your hear- ing this has been fulfilled. " 07:49 Yeah, that was a divine providence because 07:52 on that particular Sabbath - we can look up the calendar, 07:56 the schedule of prophetic readings which existed then - 08:00 it was somewhere around June... May, June 08:03 in the Hebrew month of Sivan... 08:06 where Isaiah 61- that passage - was actually read. 08:11 And Jesus was... right at this when He was called to read 08:15 these words. Right. You know, that's something really 08:19 interesting that we want you to get ahold of is that 08:22 even today within Judaism there is a cycle 08:26 of reading the sections - the Torah portions. 08:30 The five books of Moses are broken up into individual 08:34 sections and every week in synagogues all around the 08:37 world that same schedule is followed. 08:41 And there is a reading from the Torah 08:43 which is the first five books of Moses 08:45 and then there is also a reading which is called the haftorah 08:48 which is from the prophets... a coinciding reading. 08:51 So again, that's on a schedule. 08:55 Now the schedule that existed in the first century 08:57 is different than the one that exists today. 09:00 But the point of this is is that Jesus didn't just 09:03 walk up and just haphazardly grab the Isaiah... 09:07 grab the scroll of Isaiah and just roll it until He found 09:10 the right thing. "That's the thing I want to read to you. " 09:13 No. This day that He walked in was that day of reading. 09:18 And like you said, it was absolutely God's providence. 09:21 It was His Father that directed all of this. 09:23 And that corresponds to the idea which we discussed 09:27 about the Jewishness of Jesus. 09:29 That He was a member of that community of Nazareth 09:33 that the community knew. He knew how to read - 09:36 that He would read well - and they selected Him 09:40 to be the reader. Right. Which again, by the way, 09:43 not anyone could just walk up and grab a scroll and read. 09:47 Like Sasha's saying, they would have to have known Him 09:50 and known that He could read, He could interpret 09:53 the scripture in the right way. 09:55 And they would have invited Him to come up and read. 09:58 He didn't just walk in and "Excuse me; excuse me. " 10:01 Push His way up and grab the scroll and read. 10:03 Which again even solidifies this idea of how Jewish He was 10:09 and how He was accepted amongst His people at that time. 10:14 So let's go back and continue a little bit. 10:16 How does the Torah now... You know, we go... 10:19 Of course, Isaiah 61... 10:21 but there is another really important passage 10:25 in the book of Isaiah that speaks about Messiah 10:28 in a completely different way. 10:29 Right? And that's Isaiah 53. Yeah. 10:32 This passage is talking about 10:34 so called the poem of suffering servant. Exactly. 10:38 And this is... this was a difficult passage 10:43 for Jewish people to understand. 10:45 Because when you look at the pattern of how 10:51 the teaching about the Messiah is developed 10:55 throughout the scripture it's always glorious Messiah. 10:59 Glorious Messiah. And then suddenly 11:02 this chapter 53 where there is not a single word 11:07 talking about the Messiah but just "my servant" 11:11 and it's just suffering, you know, death. 11:14 He is presented as being a sacrifice - um-hmm - 11:19 for the people, and this is a tough chapter to grasp. 11:25 But if we look at the way how 11:29 this servant is presented as a willing sufferer - exactly - 11:35 then He is presented as the One who makes atonement 11:40 for the sins of people. 11:43 We definitely see that it goes beyond just a human 11:47 personality. It's definitely talking about the Messiah. 11:52 Right. Let me ask you this, Sasha: I've heard in the past 11:55 that there is within Judaism... within rabbinic teachings... 11:59 there is a concept that's not talked about very much. 12:03 But this concept of how the Jews saw that Messiah would 12:06 come in two ways and would fill two different roles. 12:09 And I've heard it stated as Messiah Ben Joseph... 12:14 which is Messiah, the son of Joseph... 12:16 and then Messiah Ben David... Messiah, the son of David. 12:20 And I've understood that that there is this concept 12:24 of Messiah suffering as well as the conquering king. 12:28 Now before you jump in and answer I just want to share 12:31 that I have a Passover order of service 12:36 that dates prior to World War II. 12:39 And within that order of service there is a little passage 12:43 that asks the question: Where will you find Messiah? 12:46 And the answer says You will find Messiah 12:49 outside the gates of Imperial Rome among the lame, 12:53 the suffering and the beggars. 12:55 And I always found that... Wow, is this alluding 12:58 to this concept of Messiah Ben Joseph... 13:00 the suffering Messiah. 13:02 Exactly. It is interesting that rabbis - even though 13:07 they did not accept Jesus as being the Messiah - 13:10 they acknowledged the existence of suffering Messiah... 13:15 afflicted Messiah... as well as they acknowledge 13:21 the existence of the glorious Messiah. 13:25 So unlike the Christians who believe in first and second 13:30 coming, Jews - the rabbis - believe in two Messiahs. 13:36 The afflicted one comes before the glorious one. 13:42 Right. So other than how we're interpreting 13:47 I mean really we're talking about the same thing. 13:49 And if you go to the first century then 13:52 if we understand this idea that there was this expectation 13:57 that yes, there's a suffering but also a conquering Messiah 14:01 and we put it in the context of the first century 14:05 and the oppression that the Jewish people were feeling 14:07 under Rome, it really makes a lot more sense why 14:12 so many of the Jews... Of course not all, because 14:15 many accepted Him. We know that. 14:17 But there were also many that at first 14:20 we see when He makes His triumphal entry into Jerusalem 14:24 and they're waving the palm branches and crying "Hosannah 14:28 save us, " You know, I think - correct me if I'm wrong - 14:32 "Save us the son of David. " Right. 14:35 So they're expecting Messiah the son of David. Yeah. 14:40 Conquering Messiah. They're expecting that He's going to 14:42 come in and wipe out the Romans. 14:45 But what they get instead is Messiah Ben Joseph. 14:49 Exactly. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53. 14:53 Well, not only Isaiah 53 but also a very important prophecy 14:57 which is Daniel 9. OK. 15:00 That prophecy specifically says 15:03 that Messiah shall be cut off. 15:07 And this word "cut off" there is basically the same word 15:13 which was used in Genesis 15 when Abraham 15:19 and God made the covenant. 15:21 God cut off the covenant with Abraham. 15:24 Remember how Abraham prepared the sacrifice 15:27 and how he cut... cut it in half and then God goes through 15:31 with a smoking fire pot. Yeah. And that's a beautiful 15:35 picture of how God... You know, it was taken 15:39 from an ancient ritual - ancient covenant treaty - 15:43 when the defeated party, 15:49 the defeated king, would walk in between the 15:53 corpses of donkeys that were cut in half 15:57 and said: "This is what you shall do to me and your God 16:00 shall do to me if I break my covenant, if I break 16:04 this treaty. " So Abraham here expects 16:08 to see God at the end of this row of animals 16:14 waiting for him to pass through with some kind of promises. 16:19 But instead, God and the fire walks between 16:23 saying: "I'm going to take... " But by Himself. 16:26 By Himself... which is important. By Himself. 16:29 "If you break the covenant, I will suffer like this animal. " 16:33 Well and really, isn't it the fact that God 16:36 is in that circumstance He is making a covenant 16:39 that depends on nobody else. 16:42 Exactly. Nobody can break the covenant. 16:44 It's all dependent on God, 16:47 which when we move that forward and we talk about this 16:49 concept, this idea of suffering Messiah 16:52 and what Jesus does in programs to come we're going 16:57 to talk in much greater detail about this idea of atonement. 17:01 But how Jesus as the suffering Messiah 17:05 dying for us and making atonement for us 17:09 is really in effect somewhat of a parallel to what 17:12 God did in the covenant that He made with Abraham. 17:15 Because this is a promise that at that point He makes it 17:19 really this is dependent on us. 17:21 That's exactly right. That's exactly what Daniel is driving 17:24 at actually saying that the Messiah will be cut off 17:28 the same way as these animals were cut off 17:32 by Abraham. And after that 17:36 what's interesting: it gives exact timing. 17:39 Exact timing that concurs with the date of crucifixion 17:44 of Jesus. Through prophecy we can calcuate that. 17:47 And after that it says the temple will be destroyed. 17:51 And truly that's what happened. 17:53 The temple was destroyed after that. Amazing. 17:56 So we do have a very clear prophecy - at least for 18:00 me as I was going to the synagogue 18:05 and debated Christians on the topic of Jesus 18:10 they couldn't convince me of any prophecy. 18:13 Isaiah 53... nothing was convincing. 18:16 I could find refutation. 18:18 But to Daniel 9 I could not find refutation. Wow. 18:23 I know I've heard talked about 18:26 if you bring up this idea of Isaiah 53 18:29 in rabbinic context, most of the time don't they 18:32 turn that around and say "But this is talking about 18:34 the Jewish people or Israel. " Yeah, that's how you can 18:37 refute it, although in the context it's as you thought. 18:41 It's incorrect. Yeah, 'cause Israel cannot 18:43 sacrifice for itself. Right; exactly. That's not... 18:48 So Sasha, if we can can we talk just a little bit 18:51 about... We jump forward to today. 18:53 I know that there is this Messiah... this Messianic 18:58 idea that exists within Judaism. 19:01 Can you talk just a little bit about that? 19:03 Um, what do they see? What do they? Today I'm talking about 19:07 from a Jewish perspective. Well we have to understand 19:10 that especially after the Holocaust 19:14 and especially after the age of Jewish enlightenment 19:19 which happened in the 19th century 19:22 with the creation of the progressive Jewish movement 19:26 a majority of the Jews don't expect any Messiah... 19:31 any specific Messiah. You talk to reformed rabbis 19:35 they'll say: "Oh, we're in some kind of Messianic age. " 19:39 Only ultra orthodox or orthodox rabbis 19:43 they still expect Messiah 19:45 who will come and rebuild the temple. Right. 19:49 So that's the Messianic idea in Judaism today. 19:55 Well, and this idea of this Messianic age. 19:58 It's not so much as we understand that OK, 20:03 as when Messiah comes and we're talking about 20:05 establishing a whole new earth. 20:08 You know... stepping into eternity as we would 20:11 understand it. Yeah. That sin is gone and... 20:14 And that's what we're going to be talking when we touch 20:18 about the rebuilding of the temple. 20:20 That in the prophecy actually that appears to talk 20:24 about the rebuilding of the temple actually opens up 20:27 this new perspective how God will rebuild not only 20:31 the land of Israel but the entire earth 20:34 making a new earth, a new heaven. Right. 20:37 So why is it then we can look back at the first century 20:41 and we can see some obvious things? 20:44 But many, many Christians will ask: "OK, it seems so obvious. " 20:50 You look at the Bible; we look at the prophecies; 20:53 we look at the New Testament and we go "how can this be 20:57 anyone but Jesus? " 20:59 And the question is: why is it that some Jews 21:02 even though it seems so obvious 21:05 why is it that they would reject that Jesus is the Messiah? 21:08 Well from the Christian perspective 21:11 people take it for granted. Yeah. 21:14 You're raised Christian. You've been taught from a child. 21:17 How else can it be? From a Jewish perspective 21:21 it is not obvious. What does it look like to a typical Jew? 21:23 To a typical Jew the major sticking point of Jesus being 21:27 the Messiah is His claim of divinity. Exactly. 21:31 Because it is very difficult for a Jew to accept that Messiah 21:36 is God. But this is exactly... You mean like a man is God or? 21:41 Well, that's what they have a problem! Messiah? 21:44 Oh, it's a human... it's not divine. 21:47 And Jesus was adamant about calling Himself 21:50 a divine Messiah. 21:52 So what we have and this is interesting 21:56 is that there is a very famous prophecy 22:00 recorded in the book of Micah chapter 5 22:03 where it talks about "You Bethlehem Ephrathah... 22:07 aren't you least among the thousands of Judah? 22:12 But from you will come the One who becomes the ruler 22:16 of Israel. " And then there is a little statement: 22:19 "Whose going forth is from everlasting. " 22:25 From the days of old. 22:27 This word the yemim haolam. Right. From eternity. 22:33 And that's really divine title. 22:36 So if the Jews are not expecting a Messiah 22:38 in a man/divine form or divine/man form 22:41 how are they expecting Him? 22:44 The orthodox Jews don't have much of a specific 22:48 idea. They say: "Oh, when He comes we will see. " 22:52 Yeah well. I mean we could really jump off and 22:55 you know there is a sect within orthodox Judaism - 22:57 the Lubavitch - that they believe Messiah has come. 23:01 Oh yeah! You know, and the problem with that was 23:05 that the Messiah came and then He died. 23:07 But... So do they believe He's going to come back? 23:11 How do they answer that? It is interesting. When you go 23:13 to the main yeshiva of this group 23:16 you will see a huge poster. It said: "Long live 23:22 our rabbi, our Messiah, our king, our God. " 23:27 So... And so how can they from the other side 23:32 when we say this salvation through the Messiah 23:35 a Christian concept? The answer is "No. " 23:39 No! This is SO Jewish in its essence all the way back. 23:43 Exactly. It is just to understand who that divine 23:46 Messiah is. That's the issue. Right. 23:49 Jesus or Schneersohn? 23:51 Alex, have you got a song for us? 23:53 Sasha, why don't you tell us about it. 23:55 The song is from the words of the prophet Jeremiah. 23:59 Ode Shimah. Again in the streets of Jerusalem 24:05 will be heard the voice of bride and groom. 25:20 A song shall be heard in the cities of Judah 25:24 and in the streets of Jerusalem. 25:28 A song shall be heard in the cities of Judah 25:33 and in the streets of Jerusalem. 25:37 A voice of joy and a voice of gladness... 25:41 voice of the groom, voice of the bride. 25:45 A voice of joy and a voice of gladness... 25:49 voice of the groom, voice of the bride. 27:01 Amen! That was beautiful! 27:04 What a fun song, huh? Great song! You know, some day... 27:07 Someday soon I pray Jesus will return 27:11 and maybe we'll dance to this - that'd be nice - 27:15 with the wedding feast of the Lamb. 27:16 What a great time that will be. It will be. 27:18 You know, today we spoke about Jesus. We spoke how He 27:23 is truly not just the Messiah of the Christian faith 27:29 but He is truly the Messiah of all. That's right. 27:32 The Messiah of the Jewish people. And we want to 27:34 encourage you that open up your heart and allow God 27:39 to speak to you. And it's just been wonderful 27:43 that you've been with us today. 27:44 May the Lord bless you and may He keep you. 27:47 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious 27:50 to you. May the Lord lift His countenance upon you 27:52 and bring you His peace. On behalf of Rachel 27:55 and Sasha we want to say God bless you 27:58 and shalom shalom. Join us again. Yes. |
Revised 2014-12-17