Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000003
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00:01 Do Jews and Christians worship a different God?
00:04 Does the Old and New Testament portray God the same 00:08 or differently? 00:09 Stay tuned and you'll find out. 00:31 Hello and welcome to Back To Our Roots. 00:35 Today we are talking about once again a really interesting 00:39 subject: is God portrayed differently in the Old Testament 00:44 and the New Testament? And do Jews and Christians 00:47 worship or follow two different Gods? Rachel, 00:51 I'm sure that for some people they might even get confused 00:54 about that. Have you run into situations with that? 00:57 Well mostly I hear people say: "Well you know God seems so mean 01:00 in the Old Testament and He seems so nice and kind 01:03 and gentle in the new one. " 01:04 You know, that's perfect because that's exactly 01:07 what we're going to be dealing with today. 01:08 You know, one of the things about the God that we serve 01:12 as we look back over the Old Testament 01:14 God is revealing Himself progressively. 01:17 And He's revealing Himself through historical events 01:20 and He is revealing Himself through the relationship 01:23 that He is building with His people. 01:25 You know for example in the Old Testament 01:28 God is declared to be compassionate. 01:30 He's declared to be a gracious God. 01:33 Slow to anger. That He's abounding in love. 01:37 That He's got great faithfulness. 01:39 This to me doesn't sound like an angry God. Um-hmm. 01:42 This is a God who loves. 01:44 You know, this idea also of the God of the Old Testament 01:48 being a God of wrath like you said 01:51 where the New Testament is a God of love. 01:56 We want to show today that in so many ways 01:58 as we seek to understand God portrayed in the New Testament 02:02 He's loving and kind and we know that 02:07 God is even more manifested in His love in the New Testament 02:12 through that beautiful passage in John 3:16, right? Yes. 02:15 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son 02:19 that whosoever... " I love the whosoever. 02:21 You know, the whosoever means that anybody - 02:24 whosoever would believe - would come in 02:29 and would not perish but have eternal life. 02:31 Jew and Gentle. Exactly. It doesn't matter who you are. 02:34 And you know, when we say Jew and when we say Gentile 02:37 remember that term Gentile means the nations. 02:40 It's not derogatory. It's a Biblical term that means 02:44 all of the other people. 02:45 You know, 'cause from that Biblical perspective - 02:47 especially Old Testament - there's the Jews 02:50 and there's everybody else. 02:51 And you know, we see God in the Old Testament 02:55 dealing with Israel in the same way. 02:58 He loves them and He deals with them as a father 03:00 would deal with a child. That's one of the things that 03:04 I think struck me so long ago is that as we watch God 03:08 it's like He's raising up a child, Rachel. 03:11 You know, we start in the very beginning 03:14 and humanity... they're so immature 03:17 they're like little babies. And you know, as a parent 03:20 when you have a little child, if that little child 03:23 keeps wanting to walk out into the street 03:25 and you tell them: "No, no, no" 03:27 you're going to have to get harsh with them. 03:29 Exactly. Because the last thing you want them to do is something 03:31 that's going to hurt themselves. 03:33 And I think that that's how God responded to His people 03:36 in the beginning. And as we matured as a people 03:39 how God related to us is very different. 03:41 And maybe even so that by the time we reached that 03:44 first century period as people 03:46 God is now treating us somewhat like teenagers. 03:49 We still have a long way to go 03:51 but He's now looking at us a lot different. 03:54 We once again were very blessed. 03:58 We have our great friend Alexander Bolotnikov 04:00 who has become our resident theologian. 04:03 Just a man of many words. We call him Sasha. 04:08 Brother, why don't you come on out and join us? 04:12 Good to see you again. Yes, welcome Sasha. It's good 04:15 to have you! How are you? You know, Sasha... we call him 04:17 our resident theologian. And all kidding aside, Sasha... 04:20 he's about to complete his Ph. D. Great! 04:24 He's worked very hard and Sasha, 04:29 we've had so many times, so many opportunities. 04:31 We've traveled a lot around the world. 04:33 And you and I have gotten into some really interesting, deep 04:36 conversations. And I know that this one in particular 04:39 is one that we've spent a lot of time talking about. 04:42 And we want to jump right in. 04:44 This is going to be the meat of our program today. 04:48 And it's beginning with this: Sasha, does the Old Testament, 04:52 does the old covenant ever speak of this idea 04:56 of the triune God? Now we know that within the New Testament 05:00 we see of course the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit 05:04 portrayed in many ways, but is that something 05:07 that we can find and does exist and is in fact brought out 05:10 in the Old Testament. This is a very deep question 05:15 as you mentioned especially. In order to appreciate it 05:19 we need to look at some of these things from the perspective of 05:25 Hebrew language. OK. Now remember, we don't all 05:29 speak Hebrew. Yeah, I'll have to be... 05:31 So go slow. Yeah, I'll have to be as slow as possible. 05:35 Yeah. What we have is the book of Genesis - right - 05:40 from the first chapter begins introducing God... 05:44 "In the beginning God. " Yes... 05:46 as His divine name Elohim. Right. 05:50 This name is from Hebrew perspective of Hebrew grammar 05:55 looks like plural. OK. Almost like, oh Gods. 06:00 What kind of God? But this is not God - OK - 06:05 because the next what follows after... 06:08 actually what precedes Him... is the action of creation 06:13 and the verb itself is in singular. 06:18 So this is the word bara which is really translated... 06:23 it's to create. Exactly, exactly. 06:27 And so what we have here 06:30 is this paradoxical combination 06:34 right introduced to us in the beginning. 06:37 You have basically the verb that denotes the action 06:43 of a single individual but then you have a... 06:46 then it's followed by something in multiple... 06:50 something in plural. And so let's back up now. 06:53 I mean, that's a mouthful. Yeah. OK, and we've got to remember 06:57 you know that it's hard enough to understand when we just bring 07:02 it forth. So essentially what's happening, 07:04 you know, typically in most languages if something is said 07:08 in a plural... that we have many of something... 07:12 whatever you're connecting with that it needs to be 07:14 a plural form of that same that comes together with it. 07:19 So what you're describing then is that the Elohim - 07:22 this term that describes God - is a plural. 07:25 It gives this impression that we're talking Gods. Yes. 07:28 But the words - the verbs - that are connected to it - 07:32 bara, to create - is actually a singular version. 07:36 So where normally we would have this... both things 07:39 should both be plural so that they agree... 07:43 we have a situation here as you're calling a paradox 07:45 where we have this plural form of God 07:48 yet the action that God's doing 07:50 is described in the singular form. Yes, exactly. 07:53 And there is another detail. 07:55 The verb itself bara - right, 08:00 to create - OK - is only 08:04 in the entire Hebrew Bible 08:08 it only goes together with the word God. 08:10 So human cannot do the action called bara. 08:14 Which that makes sense because really only God can create. 08:17 Yeah, this is... We as humans we talk about 08:20 that "we created something" 08:21 but the truth is we don't create anything. 08:23 God's the One that created everything. 08:25 All we do is take what God created 08:27 and reshape it and reform it into something else. 08:29 Even our brain which God created that's what we're using 08:31 to make something so... Exactly, and so 08:36 the verb itself is basically creation of something 08:41 out of nothing. OK, so... Start moving from there 08:45 and how does this now build this idea of this multiple 08:49 or this triune nature of God? 08:51 So the verb itself many scholars believe that 08:56 the root of this verb is actually the Aramaic 09:00 word for sun - bi. So it in a way corresponds 09:06 to what John in his gospel says: "through Him 09:11 everything came into being. " 09:14 So we have this connection already with the book of Genesis 09:18 and the gospel of John. So let me jump in. 09:22 Now John, of course, is speaking about Messiah... about Jesus. 09:26 Yes. Yeshua. Yes. That's the Him that he's referring to. 09:28 Yes. That's... "Him" is the One who became flesh. 09:31 So definitely... So we have a mentioning of the Messiah 09:36 of sun in a way, in the very first sentence 09:41 of the Bible. And then what happens next 09:45 is of course Genesis 1:27 09:47 when God said: "Let US make man in OUR image. " 09:54 And so rabbis always ask this question. 09:58 "To whom is He talking about? " 10:01 Who's the us? Yes, who is us? Who is He conversing with? 10:06 Right. And the rabbis come to the conclusion 10:10 that he coverses with an angel. 10:14 Hmmm. And from the point of view of Christians 10:18 oh... this is so wrong. 10:20 But let's not jump to the conclusion. 10:23 We do have an interesting way... an interesting occurrence 10:28 of the word angel. In the story of Moses 10:32 when He sees God in the burning bush in Exodus 3 10:39 the angel of the Lord appears to Moses. Right. 10:43 And then Moses comes closer to the bush 10:46 and God is talking to Moses. 10:49 The same phenomenon occurs later in the book of Exodus 10:53 chapter 13 when the people of Israel started exiting 11:01 Egypt and God... 11:05 at first it says "the angel of the Lord leads them 11:09 in the pillar of fire at night and in the pillar of smoke 11:14 at the daytime. " 11:16 And then again in the schedule 11:18 God is in the pillar of fire; 11:20 angel of the Lord is in the pillar of fire. 11:23 So we have this interesting expression: angel of the Lord. 11:27 Angel of the Lord which interchanges with God. 11:32 And sometimes it's confusing... we don't understand. 11:36 Who is it? Angel of God or God Himself? 11:39 And there is nothing to be confused about 11:42 when eventually we come to the book of Daniel 11:47 and we learn about the great Prince, Michael. Right. 11:51 And the name Michael actually means 11:58 "the One who is God. " 12:00 The One who is divine: Michael. 12:03 And there is an interesting text in the book of Daniel 12:08 chapter 12. It talks about the coming of Michael 12:13 the great Prince. And after His coming... at His coming 12:18 the dead are raised from their graves: 12:21 ones for eternal damnation, the others for eternal life. 12:25 And again we can bring and build a parallel 12:30 with the very same words found in the book of John, 12:33 the gospel of John chapter 5 when Jesus speaks about Himself 12:38 that the time will come when 12:42 those who are asleep in graves 12:45 will hear the voice of the Son of God 12:49 and the ones will again arise 12:52 for the resurrection of damnation 12:56 and the others for the resurrection of life. 12:58 So by putting these two verses together 13:02 there is only one conclusion can be reached: 13:04 that the One who is called by Daniel "great Prince Michael" 13:10 is the same person as the Son of God. 13:15 And He is that angel of the Lord 13:19 that appeared to Moses in the burning bush 13:24 and that led Israel as a nation out of Egypt 13:27 and appeared to Gideon. So all these occasions 13:32 illustrate that there is this... 13:36 that there is this God appearing in multiple ways. 13:41 Exactly. So then we take this back as you started with 13:44 in Genesis in the story of creation of Adam and Eve: 13:48 "Let US make him in OUR image. " 13:52 And where the rabbis are debating that this him 13:56 is the angel this is all pointing around to 14:00 what Daniel is speaking about and all of these. 14:03 That in fact... Yeah, so this is... this is... 14:06 While we don't see on the pages of the Old Testament 14:10 the expression God the Son or Jesus or Son of God 14:15 but we definitely deal with the person 14:18 who as Paul in Hebrews mentioned 14:22 is... always associates Himself with His creation. 14:28 Right. So at some point God associates Himself 14:33 with angels... appearing as Michael, archangel, 14:37 and another. The rabbis still see that as monotheistic. 14:42 Yes! This is the paradox: they don't see the difference. 14:46 They are not uncomfortable with the fact 14:49 that sometimes God appears as an angel of God. 14:55 Well, and the fact is is that - you know - we're talking about 14:58 God: Creator of all things. Right. 15:00 You know, to have a problem that God could choose to 15:03 appear... look... God can do whatever He wants. 15:06 If God decided to get Balaam's attention through 15:10 speaking through a donkey - yeah - OK? 15:12 causing a donkey to speak... let me put it that way... 15:16 You know, I know that from a Jewish perspective 15:19 this is a constant struggle and it really comes up as one 15:23 of the big issues. Of course there's many, but one 15:28 of the major issues the Jews have 15:30 that they see, from a Christian standpoint 15:33 you're talking about many Gods. 15:36 That Christians... this idea of God three... 15:40 they take their most beloved prayer and passage 15:45 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God... the Lord is One" 15:48 and they say that and they say: "How can it be? 15:52 How can this be true? " And they across the board will 15:55 throw that up as an argument. 15:58 Well, the famous central prayer 16:03 of the Jewish liturgy Shema Israel eloheinu ehad 16:09 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God 16:13 the Lord is One" 16:14 found in Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4. 16:18 This prayer uses this Hebrew word ehad. 16:23 And it was discovered by many scholars 16:28 studying this Hebrew word that there are two 16:32 different connotations 16:36 the way how the numeral I can be used. 16:40 There is also the word yahid. 16:43 For example, in the book of Genesis chapter 22 16:48 God speaks to Abraham and says: "Take Isaac 16:53 your only son. " And that's the usage of yahid. 16:59 Yahid means the only one. 17:01 Echadh is much broader. 17:04 Like we can say "One pair of something" 17:07 and that implies more than one of something. 17:09 Yes, it has broader connotation 17:13 and can... it doesn't ALWAYS mean composite unity 17:19 but it CAN mean composite unity. Interesting. 17:22 So let me jump over into the New Testament then 17:26 and we're talking about this term "echadh" in reference 17:30 to God being One. Now let me ask you your opnion on this: 17:35 you know, if we were to look at something like the passage 17:38 in John 17 where Jesus - where Yeshua - is making 17:42 that statement "I and the Father are One" 17:45 now I know that this is written in Greek, but is it possible 17:48 that the intent behind it is that idea of echadh? 17:51 Is that what He's saying? Oh absolutely! Absolutely! 17:54 And they clearly understand. When Jesus claims His divinity 18:00 His claim is absolutely correctly understood 18:04 because we know there are some groups that 18:08 claim that "Oh, Jesus never called Himself God. " 18:11 When He speaks "I and the Father are One" 18:16 in John chapter 10 verse 17 18:19 this is immediately understood because they want to stone Him. 18:25 And when He says: "What do you want to stone me for? 18:31 For what bad deed? " they say: "For blasphemy. " 18:35 And they spell it out. 18:37 "Because you are being a man calling yourself God. " 18:43 So... And in fact, we're going to talk about 18:47 the crucifixion. Jesus' verdict... Jesus was 18:52 convicted in blasphemy. 18:55 Not because He offended God but specifically because He 18:58 called Himself God. And how so? 19:02 When the high priest Caiaphas 19:05 asks Him blankly in the English Bible 19:11 "Are you Christ, the Son of God? " 19:13 Basically if we would have heard the Hebrew of this 19:18 he would say: "Are You the Messiah? " 19:21 And here's the interesting thing: the Son of God 19:26 as a Hebrew expression 19:29 often doesn't necessarily refer to like, oh, you know, 19:35 some kind of subordination 19:38 but it refers to a likeness kind of. 19:42 "Are you the divine Messiah? " 19:44 That's what Caiaphas implied. 19:47 And Jesus replies very clearly to him. 19:51 He says: "You said so, but you will see 19:55 the Son of Man... " so that's Son of Man basically 19:59 He calls Himself a human... 20:02 "standing at the right side of the power in heaven. " 20:07 The right side in Semetic mindset - in Hebrew mindset - 20:12 means equal position. Those who are on the left 20:17 are a little lower, but if you are on the right 20:19 you are an equal. And these words Caiaphas used 20:24 as statement proving that Jesus claims Himself as God. 20:30 And he takes as a blasphemy and the verdict was rendered. 20:33 So let me... time is getting away from us again. 20:37 It goes so fast on this program. 20:41 We've talked about this plural nature of God 20:45 in Elohim in the creation story and how we see the Son 20:49 represented also in the creation story and further. 20:52 Sasha... through the verb bara.. Right, exactly. 20:55 So let's talk just a little bit. 20:57 I know we had this discussion last night. 20:59 We were sitting together at supper, 21:01 we were talking about this. The idea of 21:04 the Holy Spirit and how there is even this concept 21:09 within rabbinic writings you were sharing with me. 21:12 Oh yeah. The Holy Spirit appears in the rabbinic writings 21:17 very clearly understood as the divine Shekinah, 21:22 the divine glory, that resides upon the ark. 21:25 That's how the Holy Spirit is actually introduced. 21:30 But specifically called Ruach Hako'desh - 21:32 exactly - the Holy Spirit... 21:34 not just the breath of God. Exactly. There is Ruach Elohim 21:38 which is the breath of God 21:40 and there is Ruach Hako'desh - the Holy Spirit. 21:45 And it is interesting that Jesus - answering the question 21:51 of the Samaritan woman about where is the place of worship, 21:55 you know, Jesus says: "Hey, it's in Jerusalem. 21:59 Salvation is from the Jews. 22:01 That's where you get the Holy Spirit. " 22:02 And the rabbis believe you have to come to the temple 22:06 to get the Holy Spirit. 22:08 But then He comes back and says: "But the time comes 22:11 when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem 22:14 but in truth and in spirit. " Yeah. 22:17 So let me back up a second. That's really interesting. 22:20 So from this rabbinic perspective, the only place 22:24 that someone could experience the presence - OK - of... 22:29 of the Holy Spirit was actually at the temple. 22:34 Exactly. At the Feast of Tabernacles. 22:36 That's Sukkot. Yeah, that's what the rabbinic 22:39 writing is implying you know. You've got to come 22:42 to the temple at the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles 22:47 to actually receive the Holy Spirit. 22:49 And that's called the last great day. Yeah, the last great day. 22:52 The great salvation is called Hashanah Raba. 22:55 And that actually, you know, real briefly 22:58 that's described in the gospels. 23:01 That's the time when Jesus actually has come 23:04 and it says it was last great day of the feast. 23:07 And this is when He's talking about the rivers of living water 23:10 and "I am the light of the world" and all of those things, 23:12 right? And the gospel right there interprets. 23:15 He talked about the Holy Spirit that the believers 23:18 have not yet received because Jesus wasn't glorified. 23:22 Sasha, that's a great point. 23:24 Alex has a song for us now which he wrote himself 23:27 from Psalm chapter 105 which is a liturgical song 23:31 of thanksgiving and praise. 23:35 La la la la la, 23:39 la la la la la, 23:42 la la, la la la 23:46 la la. 23:49 Give thanks to the Lord 23:52 for He is good. 23:56 His love 23:58 forever endures. 24:03 Give thanks to the Lord 24:06 and call on His name 24:09 for His mercy forever endures. 24:16 Give thanks to the Lord 24:19 for He is good. 24:23 His love forever endures. 24:30 Give thanks to the Lord 24:33 and call on His name 24:36 for His mercy forever endures. 24:45 Sing to Him; 24:47 give thanks to the Lord. 24:50 Sing praise to the Lord... 24:53 He is good! 24:58 Sing to Him; give thanks to the Lord. 25:03 Sing praise to the Lord... 25:06 He is good. 25:10 Remember the wonders 25:14 He has done. 25:17 His love 25:19 forever endures. 25:24 Seek the Lord; rejoice in your heart 25:30 for His mercy forever endures. 25:38 Shere lo, Hodu L'Adonai. 25:44 seme rule adonai 25:47 keto. 25:52 Shere lo, 25:54 Hodu L'Adonai. 25:57 seme rule adonai keto. 26:04 Give thanks to the Lord 26:07 for He is good. 26:13 His love forever endures. 26:20 La la la la la, 26:24 la la la la la, 26:27 la la la, la la la 26:32 la la. 26:36 Wow Alex, that's a beautiful song! 26:38 It's even more impressive that you wrote it. 26:40 Thank you. Well, all praise to God. 26:42 You know, it's about giving glory to Him 26:46 and how God... He calls us to praise Him. Um-hmm. 26:49 You know Rachel, this has been such a great program 26:52 today... touched on so many things that I think stir people 26:58 to understand that really we serve one God. 27:01 Um-hmm. The God that we worship, the God of Abraham, 27:05 Isaac, and Jacob: one God. 27:08 Jews, non-Jews... worshiping one God. 27:11 And you know, Rachel, I think that our real prayer 27:14 now has to be that through the power 27:17 of the Ruach Hako'desh... the power that we spoke about... 27:20 that God's presence will pour out on all people - um-hmm - 27:23 whether it be Jew or Greek or Arab or whatever, 27:28 that God's presence is upon them 27:30 so that they would come to know the true and living God 27:33 of Abraham. That's important. 27:35 So we want to thank you once again for joining us 27:39 on our program Back To Our Roots. 27:43 We have some really exciting things coming in the future. 27:47 Please... we want you to tune in. 27:49 Tell your friends about the program because 27:52 I think God wants to not just bless you 27:56 but bless your friends as well. 27:59 So we say now May the Lord bless you 28:02 and may the Lord keep you. |
Revised 2014-12-17