Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000002
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00:01 If somebody asked you: "Is the New Testament
00:03 a Christian book? " is there an obvious yes to that answer? 00:06 Stick around today on Back To Our Roots 00:09 and we're going to explore this and so many more things. 00:12 Great to have you with us. 00:36 Welcome to Back To Our Roots. 00:39 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler and I'm Rachel Hyman, 00:42 minister of music, and we're so happy that you've joined us 00:45 for today's program. We have a very, very interesting topic 00:49 today. We're going to be talking about is the New Testament 00:52 a Christian book? And maybe for some people 00:54 they would hear that and go: "Excuse me? 00:57 That's a pretty obvious thing. " 00:58 But as we get into it today in this show, you're going to see 01:02 that it's not so cut and dried as we may think. 01:04 You know, Rachel, the whole idea of New Testament 01:09 it appears in the book of Jeremiah chapter 31. 01:12 That's the first time that it comes up. 01:14 And in Hebrew it's the term B'riyt HaHhadashah 01:16 which literally means not testament but new covenant. 01:19 Hmmm. We're going to be dealing with that today. 01:22 You know, Rachel, both of us were raised 01:25 in Jewish families and Jewish homes. 01:27 And maybe one of the hardest things to understand 01:30 is what do Jewish people think about the New Testament? 01:33 Well when we hear new it's kind of disrespectful in a way 01:37 and slightly offensive because we feel like, 01:40 you know, that's the second testament. 01:42 The Old Testament... that's the first testament. 01:45 And when we hear new it almost sounds like the Old Testament 01:48 has been done away with... taken over. 01:51 Exactly. And that is a very common thing - 01:54 and not even just with Jewish people - to think about 01:57 the New Testament. 01:59 Even within Christianity, you know, there's this idea 02:02 of old vs. new. And we're going to get into that in depth. 02:06 You know, growing up as a young Jewish man 02:10 in south Florida, if someone asked me the question 02:14 "What did I think about the New Testament? " 02:19 I don't know that I could have answered 02:20 because I don't know that if I... Exactly. Yeah. 02:23 My first thought would have been that's not for us at all. 02:26 Yeah. That's the Christian's book. 02:28 Exactly. But you know, it couldn't be farther 02:30 from the truth - hmmm - you know. 02:32 The New Testament is extremely Jewish. Totally. 02:37 It was written by Jews. That's right. 02:40 It was written in a period of history where everything 02:41 was revolving around the Jewish people. So as I said, 02:45 we have some really interesting things to get into. 02:47 And before we go any further 02:49 we have a very special guest. He is our resident theologian: 02:53 Alexander Bolotnikov. 02:57 So I'm going to invite Alex - or Sasha as we call him - 03:00 come on. Join us, Sasha. 03:02 Our Russian friend. Yes. It's great to have you again, Sasha. 03:05 Thank you for having me on your program. 03:09 Yeah, Sasha is a great blessing. I've known him 03:12 for a whole bunch of years. 03:14 We've had the opportunity to travel around the world. 03:17 And so we've walked the streets of Germany together, 03:21 and we look forward to a lot of new things coming. 03:23 Sasha, today we're talking about is the New Testament 03:27 a Christian book or is there more to it? 03:30 And I want to ask you from a theological perspective 03:35 and not getting too deep, but from a theological perspective 03:38 what's the difference if we were to say 03:40 Old Testament/New Testament? 03:42 And I know that you've talked with me and said 03:44 you know, it's probably better put to say old covenant/ 03:47 new covenant or first covenant/ second covenant. 03:49 What do you think about that? Actually... actually yes. 03:52 The Bible does not talk about the testaments. 03:56 In fact, Jesus Himself never calls the Old Testament 04:03 Old Testament. He uses the term "scripture" - 04:07 Hebrew scripture - because it's written in Hebrew. 04:10 And He also uses the term in Luke 24:44 04:16 saying: "the law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms" 04:21 which is actually an equivalent of tri-parted 04:26 Hebrew canon was known as Tanakh, Torah nevi'im, ketuvim. 04:31 Which is the Torah which people would know is 04:33 the first five books of the Bible. Right. 04:35 And the prophets are the prophetic writings 04:36 and the writings are Psalms and Ecclesiastes 04:40 and so on, right? Nevertheless the Bible talks about 04:43 the covenant. And the word covenant in itself is very 04:47 interesting. Because basically the same word, 04:50 the same wording is used in a marriage relationship. Right. 04:54 So it's how God builds the relations with His people. 04:59 And that's the Hebrew word beriyt. Yeah, beriyt... exactly. 05:03 So when we were talking prior to the show 05:07 you shared something with me that was really interesting. 05:09 And that's that the old... I don't want to say old... 05:13 but the first covenant... maybe better put... 05:15 the first covenant was based on the things that went around 05:19 the temple. Exactly. Explain that a little bit. 05:22 Actually old is not a bad term as long as it's the covenant 05:26 because if you are talking about the epistle of Hebrews 05:30 of course first or old covenant, both terms are used. 05:33 Right. It's really the center of this old covenant 05:37 was the sanctuary... the temple... 05:41 the symbolism. And in fact, if we go 05:44 back into the prophecies 05:47 Isaiah talks about the way how God actually, initially 05:52 planned the role of the temple. 05:55 It talks about the mountain of the house of God 05:59 becomes higher than all other mountains 06:02 and all people stream up onto this mountain. 06:07 And there is a nice Hebrew song: For from Zion 06:11 the Torah shall come 06:13 and the word of the law from Jerusalem. Right, right. 06:16 So the initial idea of the old covenant 06:21 was to put Jerusalem as the center of divine worship 06:26 for the entire world. Right. 06:29 So when we get to the book of Jeremiah in particular 06:33 chapter 31 where God speaking through the prophet 06:36 begins to express this idea that OK, where the center 06:41 of worship was, as you said, the temple 06:44 and everything was painted around that, 06:46 now God starts to paint a new picture in Jeremiah, right? 06:49 Exactly, exactly. What Jeremiah is prophesying 06:52 and again we have this discourse in the epistle of Hebrews 06:57 describing this... That's chapter 8? Yes. 06:59 It's chapter 8 and then it goes into chapter 9. 07:02 But in Jeremiah in chapter 31 07:06 it speaks about the new covenant where the law 07:10 will be in the heart. Right. And this cannot be taken 07:15 out of the context because in the temple 07:19 knowing - based on Hebrews, based on the interpretation 07:23 given in the epistle of Hebrews - 07:25 the old covenant is in the temple. 07:28 So the law in the temple was inside the ark 07:31 which was located in the Most Holy Place. Right. Beautiful! 07:35 That's where God's presence was there. 07:39 It was the divine glory, the Shekinah, Schechinah - 07:43 right - was there. And it's interesting 07:45 it was once I took the group of ministers to Israel 07:50 and the Rabbi spoke to us and he blithely said 07:55 that: "You know, Christian Shekinah is in Hebrew terms 07:59 that's the Holy Spirit. " 08:01 He... the Rabbi knows that. So he professed that. 08:04 Yeah, but this makes sense. 08:07 If you look at the way how Jesus describes 08:11 in the gospels, 08:13 that's talking the Shekinah is the Holy Spirit. 08:18 Right. And so going to... 08:21 You think Jews look at the Shekinah glory 08:23 as the Holy Spirit? Yes! Yeah, that's... the Spirit of God 08:27 the Ruach Adonai, the Spirit of God or Shekinah, 08:31 this is used in Hebrew literature interchangeably. 08:35 So what we have is nice words 08:40 Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman. Right, right. 08:43 When she asks Him: "Where is the place of worship? 08:46 Where are we supposed to worship? 08:50 In Jerusalem or on Mount Garazim which Samaritans use? 08:55 Where is the truth? " And Jesus first said 08:58 "Well, you Samaritans don't know what you're talking about 09:02 because salvation is of Jews. " 09:04 But then He said: "The time will change. " 09:07 "The time is coming and now is when the true worshipers 09:11 will worship God in truth and in spirit. " 09:15 Not upon the mountain but in truth and in spirit. 09:19 So that moving then... This experience of God 09:24 from an external one now to an internal experience. 09:28 Exactly. And that's what Jeremiah was speaking about. 09:31 So if we're... The glory of God... 09:35 What Jesus is pointing: the glory of God, 09:38 the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, moves from the location - 09:42 from geographical location inside the Most Holy - 09:46 into the hearts of the believers. Into us... exactly. 09:48 And Paul... that's the new covenant... Paul now speaks: 09:53 "You are the temple of God, 09:56 not in Jerusalem, and the Holy Spirit lives in you. " 09:59 So that's the only difference we can see 10:03 between the old and the new. 10:05 It's where the Holy Spirit is located: 10:08 in the geographical location 10:10 or inside the individual believer. Exactly. 10:14 So I've heard people also talk in the context that 10:19 the gospels, you know, primary stories about Jesus, 10:24 that they find within that that Jesus in some way is 10:27 speaking against the old covenant or the New Testament. 10:31 So when Jesus is preaching - and so much of what we read, 10:35 you know, obviously in the New Testament - is Him... 10:37 one of the things we have to look at is what authority 10:41 did Jesus appeal to when He's speaking? 10:44 Was there a change? 10:47 Where did Jesus get His ideas, 10:49 you know? Because He's talking about love; 10:52 He's talking about grace; He's talking about forgiveness; 10:54 He's talking about salvation; and, of course, 10:56 the message of the kingdom of God. 10:58 Are these things exclusively New Testament ideas? 11:02 Or these are things that we find throughout 11:04 the first covenant? Absolutely not. 11:06 First of all, Jesus - no matter what people say - 11:10 "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" - 11:13 Jesus does not contradict the Torah. 11:16 Because the problem often is - especially among the Christians 11:20 that many Jews pick on this - 11:22 Christians do not actually read 11:25 what the laws of the Torah actually are saying. Um-hmm. 11:28 And "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" 11:31 particularly Jews are first is the restitution. 11:35 It's not the... You know, it's not the commandment 11:38 allowing some kind of brawls or quarrels. 11:41 It's the way how to be... You know, if you made a damage 11:45 you pay restitution. 11:46 I mean, what Christians are supposed to do now? 11:50 According to Jesus, do you assume that if I wreck your 11:53 car I say: "Oh, give me another car, I'll wreck it again? " 11:58 You know, Jesus does not condone irresponsibility 12:02 in relations. What Jesus is talking 12:05 the Torah talks to offender. 12:08 If I offended, I have to pay restitution. 12:11 What Jesus is talking is to the offended one 12:14 not to go for a wedge. 12:17 Not to go sue this person but be nice in relations. 12:21 So if we read Torah carefully 12:24 the Sermon on the Mount does not bring any contradiction 12:28 to its laws. Right. In fact, in fact... 12:32 You know, to study and I hope that in future programs 12:37 we'll be able to touch deeper on this. 12:38 When you look at the Sermon on the Mount, 12:41 you know, it's typically called that but really this is... 12:44 this is a teaching - a very in-depth teaching - 12:47 that Jesus is giving on understanding the Torah 12:50 and we could even say on the accepted 12:53 Rabbinic teachings of the time. 12:55 He's commenting on all of that through the Sermon on the Mount. 12:59 Oh exactly! See, when talking about the Jewish book 13:02 the Sermon on the Mount cannot be understood without 13:06 the proper context understanding that Jesus is 13:10 as a Rabbi presents to the public His school. 13:15 The Sermon on the Mount is basically a program speech 13:19 about what He's going to teach His disciples about. 13:23 That's right. He sets the standard. 13:24 He said: "If your righteousness will not exceed 13:28 the righteousness of Pharisees and scribes 13:32 you're not going to enter. " And see, the term He uses 13:36 it's only in the gospel of Matthew: the kingdom of heaven. 13:39 Um-hmm. Which all other gospels and Matthew, too, 13:42 also uses "the kingdom of God. " 13:44 These are two different terms. 13:46 The kingdom of heaven is basically the school. 13:50 That's why we have all these parables He explained. 13:53 This is the school which... the title of His school 13:56 He is going to teach His disciples. 13:58 So He said: "My standards in My school which I call 14:02 the kingdom of heaven - that's the one that teaches you 14:05 how to get saved - My standards are higher than the ones 14:09 which are in a similar school you can find among the 14:12 Pharasaic Rabbis. " And so in this context 14:16 you can see that the sermon does not contradict the Torah. 14:21 In fact He said you know: "I did not come to teach against 14:25 Torah" - right - "or prophets. " Right, right. 14:29 So really, if people feel like He did contradict 14:32 the Torah, really if they spend more time reading 14:35 the Torah - what Jesus was reading - they'll clearly see 14:38 that Jesus was totally in sync. 14:40 Exactly. The biggest problem which Christians have 14:44 is that because of the stigma the Old Testament... 14:48 And coming from the Russian Jewish background, the national 14:51 language is even more obvious. 14:53 The Old Testament is called actually, literally 14:56 dilapidated testament. Ummm. 14:58 So people are... Broken down. Almost like despised almost. 15:01 Yeah, yeah. It's kind of something which disintegrates. 15:05 You know it's so old... dead. 15:07 You know, the real tragedy of that 15:10 is that so much of what we desire to understand 15:14 from the writings of Paul, from the writings of John 15:18 if we don't put those things in the context of which they 15:20 were written, in that Old Testament context... 15:23 For example, to understand the book of Revelation 15:26 we understand that we've got to go to the book of Daniel. 15:29 Exactly. But that becomes the key. But even more than that 15:32 most people don't know that there's more quotes - 15:35 direct and indirect - from the Old Testament in the book of 15:38 Revelation than any other book. 15:40 So if you don't... If we don't become students 15:43 as well of the Old Testament we're going to miss 15:47 what scripture is saying. 15:49 And just for a little bit I wanted to talk about 15:52 Paul some. Because, you know, 15:54 Paul is getting placed on him this stigma that Paul was 15:58 very much anti-Torah and anti-Jewish. 16:01 And Paul's the one that did away with all of that. 16:04 From the Rabbis often you get much worse statements about 16:09 Paul than about Jesus. 16:12 And it's again because of the Christian interpretation 16:15 and understanding of Paul. Right. 16:18 And again, that could be such a deep subject. 16:22 But I think it's like what Rachel said. 16:24 Whenever we look at these things and Paul's writings 16:27 seem to contradict New Testament or seem to move us 16:31 away from things that... OK, wait a minute. 16:34 Paul seems to be inferring that the Old Testament 16:37 is done away with and that the Torah of God is no longer valid 16:40 and all of that. Let me propose that maybe 16:43 the problem is not what Paul's saying. 16:45 The problem may be is how we're interpreting. 16:47 Or better, it's like we've put on a pair of glasses... 16:50 we've put on a pair of glasses that's filtering 16:53 the scriptures in a wrong way. 16:54 One of the big problems in our reading of the New Testament 16:58 is that we don't understand how rabbinically this book 17:02 is written. And what I mean is 17:05 there is a thing which is called rabbinic shorthand. 17:07 When rabbis write their sermons or other things 17:11 they would use one or two words that point to the 17:14 passage of the scripture. And you won't understand 17:18 the thought unless you go back to the original passage 17:22 and you read it in its entirety. 17:25 Those two words just are they like today 17:29 in the Internet. When you see a link you have to click. 17:33 To get the fullness of it. Yeah. If you don't click, 17:37 you don't know what is it talking about. 17:39 And that's how the statements are often taken out of context 17:44 and understood absolutely incorrectly. 17:49 We need to be less lazy. Yes. 17:50 The study of scriptures requires lots of time... diligence, time. 17:56 Right. Well and one of the goals of this show is not 18:01 that we're going to be able to teach everything there is. 18:03 Obviously. Of course. This is a lifetime of study. 18:05 But we're hoping that you, as our friend, family, 18:07 those of you that are following the shows as we progress - 18:10 the programs as we progress - that you will begin to get 18:15 a hunger within you. And understand that as we've 18:18 said in the past, yeah, you can come to know Jesus 18:21 but as we did into the roots - 18:25 the Hebraic roots of it as Sasha was sharing - 18:27 you know these little things about how a rabbi would take 18:30 his notes and understand. Would the average person 18:33 begin to find that out? No. But when you see that there's 18:36 something way deeper to it - um-hmm. 18:38 Hopefully it's going to get us all to begin to say: 18:41 "OK, there's more to this 18:43 and I really want to know who Jesus is. " 18:46 When Jesus had completed His ministry and He ascends 18:51 to heaven and at a certain time after that 18:55 we start getting some writings, right? Matthew and Luke 18:58 and these guys... they start writing down the accounts. 19:01 And then we have Paul, of course, and Peter and James. 19:05 And they're all... You know, this begins 19:08 30, 40 years after Jesus is gone. 19:11 Right? A lot of people believe that most of these things 19:14 were written before 70 AD 19:16 just because there's not any mention of the temple being 19:20 destroyed. But my point is when they're writing 19:23 and they're referring to scripture and they're talking 19:26 what scripture are they talking about? 19:27 What are they referring to? 19:29 Is Paul referring to the gospels? 19:32 Impossible. Exactly. The only scripture 19:36 which existed in the first century 19:39 was the Hebrew scripture - the Torah, prophets, and writings. 19:44 Right. And this is always... 19:48 In fact, often there is a discussion even among the 19:52 Christians about the church gives the canon of scripture. 19:57 And this is absolutely not true. 19:59 If we look at the statements of Jesus 20:02 recorded in the gospels, Jesus constantly 20:05 refers back to Hebrew scripture. 20:08 John chapter 5: "Search the scriptures 20:12 because through them you hope to find eternal life. 20:16 And they speak about Me. " 20:19 And those scriptures He's talking about can't be 20:22 the New Testament at that point. 20:24 He talks to the Pharisees. Now but can He... 20:28 Is it possible, Sasha, that yeah, He's talking directly 20:31 to the Pharisees. Is it possible that this is also prophetic? 20:34 Is He speaking about what would be coming? 20:37 Could maybe we consider that? 20:39 Not at all because in the context you cannot take this 20:44 text out of... 5:39 out of context. 20:47 Before that He had a whole discussion 20:50 about His authority - right - to heal the sick, 20:56 to give resurrection of life. 20:59 And He raises the discussion 21:03 as an objection to Pharasaic accusation 21:06 that He breaks the laws of Torah. 21:09 And that's why He brings His own authority. 21:11 As you often teach in your sermons, Alex, 21:14 that the difference what we often have this problem 21:18 with the Pharisees, they have problem with Jesus teaching 21:22 on His own authority. Exactly. 21:25 And really what Sasha's talking about if I can interject, 21:28 you know, even today within Rabbinic Judaism 21:33 the tendency is not... 21:35 When I say Rabbinic Judaism vs. Biblical - right - 21:39 Rabbinic is the Judaism that exists today under the authority 21:42 of the line of rabbis. Exactly. 21:44 When a rabbi teaches today 21:47 they teach on the authority of their teachers 21:49 and their teachers before them, and this is something 21:51 that we can trace back even way before Jesus' time. 21:55 In other words, a rabbi wouldn't look and wouldn't say 21:58 "This shirt is blue. " He would say: "On the authority 22:01 of whoever his rabbi was before him 22:04 I say that this shirt is blue. " 22:06 And this is what leads to what Sasha is talking about 22:09 is that when Jesus taught He would say 22:12 "Well you have heard it said such and such but I say this. " 22:16 This was the real controversy with Him, right? 22:18 Exactly. But He taught on His own authority. 22:20 Every time we look at the New Testament 22:23 we have to understand that Jesus does not criticize 22:28 the scripture - the Hebrew scripture - exactly - but He 22:31 criticizes the oral tradition that sometimes incorrectly 22:36 interprets the Hebrew scripture. 22:39 Right, right. So as we wrap this up 22:44 just a little bit, I guess when we speak about the difference 22:48 between the old and the new covenant 22:50 maybe the easiest way for people to understand 22:53 is that in what we call the Old Testament 22:56 this was really an external experience. 22:58 And as we move into the New Testament - new covenant - 23:01 God has now taken it and moved it to an internal, 23:05 very personal experience, right? Yeah, the old covenant 23:08 was external experience because Jesus has not come 23:12 into this earth and all His plan of salvation 23:16 was demonstrated in symbols. Hmmm. 23:18 So moving on. Rachel, you know I've sung in the past 23:24 and I know that you've got an amazing voice. 23:26 I want to invite you to head over and get ready 23:29 and we're going to have a song. All right. And Rachel's 23:31 brought a very special friend with her. 23:33 Martin is going to accompany her. 23:36 And she's doing a song that's called Etz haChayim. 23:40 Sasha, real briefly what's that about: Etz haChayim? 23:43 This is a song about the Torah. 23:45 The revelation of God. 23:47 The Etz haChayim means the Tree of Life. Right. 23:50 So let's go to Rachel now as she sings the beautiful song 23:54 Etz haChayim... He's the Tree of Life. 27:39 Thank you for that song. 27:41 He's the Tree of Life for those who take hold of it. 27:43 Well friends, we want to thank you for joining us 27:45 on today's program and we really look forward 27:48 to you joining us again in the future. 27:50 On behalf of myself and my co-host Rachel 27:53 May the Lord bless you and keep you. 27:55 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you always. 27:57 Thank you and join us again on Back To Our Roots. |
Revised 2014-12-17