- Some of the most vocal
people in American politics
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.13
also appear to be
the most religious.
00:00:03.13\00:00:05.80
I mean, not all
of them of course,
00:00:05.80\00:00:07.97
but it is quite a few.
00:00:07.97\00:00:09.44
And of course, it is right
for Christians to be involved
00:00:09.44\00:00:12.34
in the public arena.
00:00:12.34\00:00:14.01
But the question I
want to ask today is,
00:00:14.01\00:00:15.61
what exactly
should that look like?
00:00:15.61\00:00:18.55
[dramatic music]
00:00:18.55\00:00:21.32
You know, I'll have to admit,
00:00:39.70\00:00:40.97
when I first arrived
in the United States,
00:00:40.97\00:00:43.34
the world of
American Christianity,
00:00:43.34\00:00:45.37
well, it took a
little getting used to.
00:00:45.37\00:00:48.11
Right off the
bat, I couldn't believe
00:00:48.11\00:00:50.38
how open people
were with their faith.
00:00:50.38\00:00:52.75
I mean, I heard people
openly discussing Christianity,
00:00:52.75\00:00:56.48
their faith, on the
shuttle from the airport,
00:00:56.48\00:00:59.29
and they were doing
this with perfect strangers.
00:00:59.29\00:01:02.09
I mean, mot that
Canadians or Europeans
00:01:02.09\00:01:04.63
don't discuss
their faith in public,
00:01:04.63\00:01:06.36
but by comparison,
well, they really don't.
00:01:06.36\00:01:10.07
I was surprised at
how open it seemed,
00:01:10.07\00:01:12.40
and how the people
doing this just assumed
00:01:12.40\00:01:14.34
that the rest of
the bus didn't mind.
00:01:14.34\00:01:17.17
And honestly, I
thought it was a good thing.
00:01:17.17\00:01:19.94
I enjoyed moving to a country
00:01:19.94\00:01:21.64
where people were so free
with deeply personal things,
00:01:21.64\00:01:24.91
and it made my life,
as a Christian speaker,
00:01:24.91\00:01:26.98
a hundred times easier.
00:01:26.98\00:01:28.65
I mean, in the United States,
00:01:28.65\00:01:30.65
I'm pretty much free to
say what I want, when I want,
00:01:30.65\00:01:34.29
and that wasn't always true
00:01:34.29\00:01:35.56
in some of the
other places I've worked.
00:01:35.56\00:01:37.69
So it's a good thing,
00:01:37.69\00:01:39.23
and I'm particularly thankful
for the wisdom of our founders
00:01:39.23\00:01:42.36
when they drafted
the First Amendment.
00:01:42.36\00:01:44.53
But at the same time,
00:01:45.47\00:01:47.54
I also noticed that
America's broad comfort,
00:01:47.54\00:01:50.17
with religious topics
has also created some,
00:01:50.17\00:01:53.71
well, let's say,
interesting characteristics.
00:01:53.71\00:01:56.88
Not only are
there lots of people
00:01:56.88\00:01:58.31
who are free about
sharing their faith,
00:01:58.31\00:02:00.38
as it should be,
00:02:00.38\00:02:02.15
but compared to other places,
00:02:02.15\00:02:03.59
there are plenty of
people who are kind of,
00:02:03.59\00:02:05.72
well, in your face about 'em.
00:02:05.72\00:02:07.62
They don't want to
just share their faith,
00:02:07.62\00:02:09.39
they want you to accept it.
00:02:09.39\00:02:10.83
In fact, they insist.
00:02:10.83\00:02:13.29
And I'm not talking
about just evangelizing people,
00:02:13.29\00:02:15.76
because I'm all for that.
00:02:15.76\00:02:17.37
I mean, if you really
believe that the Bible is true,
00:02:17.37\00:02:20.70
how selfish would you have to be
00:02:20.70\00:02:22.34
to just keep it to yourself?
00:02:22.34\00:02:24.41
But what I'm describing
is something different.
00:02:24.41\00:02:26.34
It's kind of a
militant Christianity.
00:02:26.34\00:02:29.81
Now, of course,
we all have stories
00:02:29.81\00:02:31.65
about obnoxious Christians,
00:02:31.65\00:02:33.15
kind of like most of us have
stories about obnoxious vegans,
00:02:33.15\00:02:36.52
because everybody's met one.
00:02:36.52\00:02:38.95
I'm just glad that we
also have sterling examples
00:02:38.95\00:02:41.39
of the right kind of people.
00:02:41.39\00:02:43.43
I remember a few years ago,
00:02:43.43\00:02:44.59
when the notable
skeptic Penn Gillette,
00:02:44.59\00:02:46.26
you know, the famous magician.
00:02:46.26\00:02:48.16
He got on YouTube to talk
about a Christian businessman
00:02:48.16\00:02:51.03
who gave him a Bible
after one of his shows.
00:02:51.03\00:02:54.00
And instead of being
offended or irritated,
00:02:54.00\00:02:56.54
Gillette was touched.
00:02:56.54\00:02:57.84
He said, "It was wonderful.
00:02:57.84\00:03:00.18
"I believe he
knew I was an atheist,
00:03:00.18\00:03:02.04
"but he was not defensive.
00:03:02.04\00:03:03.85
"And he looked me
right in the eyes,
00:03:03.85\00:03:05.48
"and he was truly complimentary.
00:03:05.48\00:03:07.62
"It wasn't in any way,
00:03:07.62\00:03:09.42
"it didn't seem
like empty flattery,
00:03:09.42\00:03:11.82
"he was really
kind and nice and sane,
00:03:11.82\00:03:14.86
"and looked me in the
eyes and talked to me,
00:03:14.86\00:03:17.53
"and then gave me this Bible.
00:03:17.53\00:03:19.69
"And I've always said, you know,
00:03:19.69\00:03:21.10
"that I don't respect
people who don't proselytize.
00:03:21.10\00:03:23.57
"I don't respect that at all.
00:03:23.57\00:03:25.23
"If you believe that
there's a heaven and hell,
00:03:25.23\00:03:27.37
"and people
could be going to hell,
00:03:27.37\00:03:29.24
"or not getting
eternal life or whatever,
00:03:29.24\00:03:31.64
"and you think it's not
really worth telling them this,
00:03:31.64\00:03:33.88
"because it would
make it socially awkward,
00:03:33.88\00:03:36.24
"and atheists who think
people shouldn't proselytize,
00:03:36.24\00:03:38.91
"just leave me alone,
00:03:38.91\00:03:40.12
"keep your religion to yourself,
00:03:40.12\00:03:42.32
"how much do you have to hate
somebody to not proselytize?
00:03:42.32\00:03:45.72
"How much do you
have to hate somebody
00:03:45.72\00:03:47.42
"to believe that
everlasting life is possible,
00:03:47.42\00:03:50.13
"and not tell them that?"
00:03:50.13\00:03:51.89
Now, that gives us
a lot to think about.
00:03:51.89\00:03:54.20
For starters, it's
kind of nice to hear
00:03:54.20\00:03:56.00
about a Christian sharing
his faith and doing it kindly.
00:03:56.00\00:03:59.23
I think most of
us could tell a story
00:03:59.23\00:04:01.27
about somebody who
embarrassed half of Christendom,
00:04:01.27\00:04:03.97
by the way they
represented the faith.
00:04:03.97\00:04:06.78
But finally, here's a
guy who gets it right.
00:04:06.78\00:04:09.81
He was kind, he was considerate,
00:04:09.81\00:04:12.11
he didn't say
anything wacky or weird.
00:04:12.11\00:04:14.05
And most importantly,
he left a good impression.
00:04:14.05\00:04:17.75
I mean, Penn Gillette
obviously didn't convert,
00:04:17.75\00:04:20.96
but it's still significant
that he came away impressed,
00:04:20.96\00:04:23.53
because let's be honest,
00:04:23.53\00:04:25.69
that doesn't always happen.
00:04:25.69\00:04:27.50
The other thing
that intrigues me
00:04:27.50\00:04:29.16
is how open Mr. Gillette
was to hearing this guy.
00:04:29.16\00:04:32.83
It's an openness that
I can't help but admire.
00:04:32.83\00:04:35.54
And I guess
that's what I want to say
00:04:35.54\00:04:37.47
about the United
States as a whole.
00:04:37.47\00:04:40.08
There's an openness
here to contrary ideas
00:04:40.08\00:04:42.88
that you don't always
find in the rest of the world.
00:04:42.88\00:04:45.81
Now, unfortunately,
I think that openness
00:04:45.81\00:04:47.75
has been deteriorating,
00:04:47.75\00:04:49.38
and the advent of social
media has certainly helped
00:04:49.38\00:04:52.19
that deterioration along.
00:04:52.19\00:04:54.66
People are
nowhere near as polite,
00:04:54.66\00:04:56.62
and receptive
as they used to be.
00:04:56.62\00:04:58.53
Civility seems to be collapsing,
00:04:58.53\00:05:01.53
but still, what
you have in America
00:05:01.53\00:05:04.70
is a pretty wonderful thing,
00:05:04.70\00:05:06.10
until it isn't.
00:05:07.17\00:05:08.60
Sometimes a person's
zeal for his or her faith
00:05:08.60\00:05:10.74
goes completely off the rails,
00:05:10.74\00:05:12.57
and the results are disastrous.
00:05:12.57\00:05:15.21
Most of you remember
the Reverend Fred Phelps,
00:05:15.21\00:05:17.81
and his Westboro Baptist Church,
00:05:17.81\00:05:19.85
the guy who picketed
the funerals of gay people,
00:05:19.85\00:05:22.75
US service members,
00:05:22.75\00:05:24.05
and even the
victims of natural disasters
00:05:24.05\00:05:26.55
with huge placards declaring
that God hates these people,
00:05:26.55\00:05:30.63
and he's punishing them.
00:05:30.63\00:05:32.53
We also have the
example of Terry Jones,
00:05:32.53\00:05:34.63
the pastor from Florida
who burned copies of the Quran
00:05:34.63\00:05:38.10
outside his church building.
00:05:38.10\00:05:40.04
He also burned a
picture of the prophet Mohamed.
00:05:40.04\00:05:43.34
It started as a protest
00:05:43.34\00:05:44.94
against the imprisonment
of a Christian pastor in Iran,
00:05:44.94\00:05:48.41
but grew beyond that,
00:05:48.41\00:05:49.91
when he planned to burn
an additional 2,998 copies,
00:05:49.91\00:05:54.82
I think, as a response to
the people who died on 9/11.
00:05:54.82\00:05:58.99
Now, to be perfectly
clear, in the United States,
00:05:58.99\00:06:02.02
you have the absolute
right to burn anything you want,
00:06:02.02\00:06:05.43
even the American flag,
00:06:05.43\00:06:07.60
so long as he
wasn't burning something
00:06:07.60\00:06:09.30
that belonged to somebody else,
00:06:09.30\00:06:11.10
so he wasn't
technically breaking the law.
00:06:11.10\00:06:15.34
But I do have to say,
as a practicing Christian,
00:06:15.34\00:06:17.47
I have to wonder what he
thought his actions were saying
00:06:17.47\00:06:19.77
about the nature of Christ.
00:06:19.77\00:06:21.84
John 3:17 says,
00:06:21.84\00:06:23.35
"For God did not send
His Son into the world
00:06:23.35\00:06:25.91
"to condemn the world,
00:06:25.91\00:06:27.32
"but that the world
through Him might be saved."
00:06:27.32\00:06:29.95
And honestly, it's
really hard to picture Jesus
00:06:29.95\00:06:33.12
burning somebody
else's religious text
00:06:33.12\00:06:35.42
as a form of public protest.
00:06:35.42\00:06:37.79
Oh, I know,
00:06:37.79\00:06:39.23
he did drive the money
changers out of the Temple,
00:06:39.23\00:06:41.43
but if you think about it,
that was an internal matter.
00:06:41.43\00:06:45.07
He was driving out people
00:06:45.07\00:06:46.57
who were making a commercial
mockery of his own faith,
00:06:46.57\00:06:49.80
which makes me wonder, frankly,
00:06:49.80\00:06:51.31
what he'd say about some of
the big commercial ministries
00:06:51.31\00:06:54.58
that claim to
represent Christianity today.
00:06:54.58\00:06:57.55
How much would
Jesus love the way
00:06:57.55\00:06:59.68
that Christianity has become
big business in this country?
00:06:59.68\00:07:03.65
But I digress.
00:07:03.65\00:07:05.55
Would Jesus actually
burn a copy of the Quran
00:07:05.55\00:07:07.79
to get attention?
00:07:07.79\00:07:09.19
I doubt it.
00:07:09.19\00:07:10.93
So here's where
I'm going with this,
00:07:10.93\00:07:13.19
as I've discussed
in another episode,
00:07:13.19\00:07:15.43
our present form of
Christianity in the West
00:07:15.43\00:07:17.67
seems to have this deep
desire to assert itself,
00:07:17.67\00:07:21.44
to claim its rights.
00:07:21.44\00:07:23.37
And of course, it's true,
00:07:23.37\00:07:25.04
we do have a
constitutional right
00:07:25.04\00:07:27.34
to worship as we see fit,
00:07:27.34\00:07:29.08
which was kind of the
point of this republic,
00:07:29.08\00:07:31.98
and I value that.
00:07:31.98\00:07:33.68
But sometimes I get the
impression that some Christians
00:07:33.68\00:07:36.62
want a whole lot
more than freedom.
00:07:36.62\00:07:39.15
They seem to think
00:07:39.15\00:07:40.66
they should be
running the country.
00:07:40.66\00:07:42.66
And what's curious about that,
00:07:42.66\00:07:44.39
is the way that this is a
relatively new development.
00:07:44.39\00:07:47.86
It used to be that
Christians simply fought
00:07:47.86\00:07:49.83
to be left alone,
00:07:49.83\00:07:51.07
to have the government
stay out of their hair.
00:07:51.07\00:07:53.57
But in recent decades,
00:07:53.57\00:07:54.87
I've been getting
the distinct impression
00:07:54.87\00:07:57.07
that some people
want a lot more than that.
00:07:57.07\00:08:00.44
They appear to want a theocracy,
00:08:00.44\00:08:02.94
even though history
has no shortage of stories
00:08:02.94\00:08:05.68
about what a
horrible idea that is.
00:08:05.68\00:08:08.52
We seem to forget
why Thomas Jefferson,
00:08:08.52\00:08:10.72
championed the idea of
separating church and state.
00:08:10.72\00:08:13.72
And now I hear
more and more voices
00:08:13.72\00:08:15.89
calling for the church to
seize the reins of government,
00:08:15.89\00:08:19.13
so they can make
everybody tow the line
00:08:19.13\00:08:21.66
that we want to
draw in the sand.
00:08:21.66\00:08:23.80
When America was born,
00:08:24.70\00:08:26.17
it was an
experiment in religious liberty
00:08:26.17\00:08:28.27
that was going to end
what James Madison once called,
00:08:28.27\00:08:31.47
Europe's career of intolerance.
00:08:31.47\00:08:35.11
But compare Madison
to some of the attitudes
00:08:35.11\00:08:37.18
we've seen since
the 1980s, and honestly,
00:08:37.18\00:08:39.91
it feels like a new form
of religious intolerance,
00:08:39.91\00:08:42.98
and people seem to be
good with it because after all,
00:08:42.98\00:08:45.99
we'd be the ones in charge.
00:08:45.99\00:08:48.09
Okay, some of
you are now wondering
00:08:48.09\00:08:49.92
where I'm going with this,
00:08:49.92\00:08:51.19
if I've lost my
mind and you're thinking,
00:08:51.19\00:08:52.79
I no longer
believe that America is,
00:08:52.79\00:08:54.86
or was a Christian nation,
00:08:54.86\00:08:57.60
but you're gonna have to
wait until after the break
00:08:57.60\00:08:59.53
to find out what I'm driving at.
00:08:59.53\00:09:01.60
- [Narrator] Life
can throw a lot at us.
00:09:05.01\00:09:07.44
Sometimes we don't
have all the answers,
00:09:07.44\00:09:10.78
but that's where
the Bible comes in.
00:09:10.78\00:09:13.21
It's our guide to a
more fulfilling life.
00:09:13.21\00:09:16.32
Here at The Voice of Prophecy,
00:09:16.32\00:09:17.89
we've created the
Discover Bible guides
00:09:17.89\00:09:20.06
to be your guide to the Bible.
00:09:20.06\00:09:21.62
They're designed to
be simple, easy to use,
00:09:21.62\00:09:24.13
and provide answers to many
of life's toughest questions,
00:09:24.13\00:09:27.13
and they're absolutely free.
00:09:27.13\00:09:29.13
So jump online
now, or give us a call,
00:09:29.13\00:09:31.47
and start your
journey of discovery.
00:09:31.47\00:09:33.70
- To be honest, there
aren't a lot of Christian shows
00:09:35.10\00:09:37.31
that are gonna share quotes
00:09:37.31\00:09:38.47
from the famous
infidel, Thomas Paine,
00:09:38.47\00:09:41.01
especially in a positive light,
00:09:41.01\00:09:42.71
so let me be the one to do it,
00:09:42.71\00:09:44.85
because at one point
he actually said something
00:09:44.85\00:09:47.32
really useful
about organized religion.
00:09:47.32\00:09:50.25
This comes from his
book, "The Rights of Man,"
00:09:50.25\00:09:52.62
a treatise that he
published back in 1791,
00:09:52.62\00:09:55.79
and he says, "All
religions are in their nature
00:09:55.79\00:09:59.13
"kind and benign and united
with principles of morality."
00:09:59.13\00:10:03.26
Now, I know what
some of you are thinking,
00:10:03.26\00:10:04.80
he couldn't be more wrong
because we have lots of examples
00:10:04.80\00:10:07.84
of religion that isn't
mild, and certainly not benign,
00:10:07.84\00:10:11.87
but let's let him continue.
00:10:11.87\00:10:13.31
He says, "They could not
have made proselytes at first
00:10:13.31\00:10:16.54
"by professing
anything that was vicious,
00:10:16.54\00:10:18.38
"cruel, persecuting, or immoral.
00:10:18.38\00:10:21.05
"Like everything else,
they had their beginning,
00:10:21.05\00:10:23.39
"and they proceeded by
persuasion, exhortation,
00:10:23.39\00:10:26.59
"and example."
00:10:26.59\00:10:27.99
And of course
that's really true,
00:10:27.99\00:10:29.39
Christianity at
the very beginning
00:10:29.39\00:10:31.26
was a persuasive
religion, not a coercive one.
00:10:31.26\00:10:34.83
But that changed, so Mr.
Paine asks this question,
00:10:34.83\00:10:38.30
"How then is it that they
lose their native mildness,
00:10:38.30\00:10:41.17
"and become
morose and intolerant?"
00:10:41.17\00:10:43.57
Now, you gotta listen to the
answer that he gives to that.
00:10:43.57\00:10:45.91
He says, "Persecution
is not an original feature
00:10:45.91\00:10:49.38
"in any religion,
00:10:49.38\00:10:50.75
"but it is alway the
strongly marked feature
00:10:50.75\00:10:52.95
"of all law religions, or
religions established by law.
00:10:52.95\00:10:57.29
"Take away the
law establishment,
00:10:57.29\00:10:59.69
"and every religion re-assumes
its original benignity."
00:10:59.69\00:11:03.86
Now, I don't always
agree with Thomas Paine,
00:11:03.86\00:11:06.73
but in this
regard, I think he's right.
00:11:06.73\00:11:09.20
It when religions control
the secular reigns of government
00:11:09.20\00:11:12.43
that we start to
get a serious problem.
00:11:12.43\00:11:15.00
In the old world, the
established state churches
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.31
confiscated the
property of heretics,
00:11:17.31\00:11:19.87
and then executed them for
the supposed crime of heresy.
00:11:19.87\00:11:24.78
Here in America, it was
supposed to be different.
00:11:24.78\00:11:27.58
So in that sense, the
United States was born
00:11:27.58\00:11:30.89
as a Christian country.
00:11:30.89\00:11:32.55
It was an attempt to go back
00:11:32.55\00:11:33.82
to the ancient roots
of the Christian faith,
00:11:33.82\00:11:36.29
when individuals were
able to live by the dictates
00:11:36.29\00:11:38.96
of their own conscience
and answer to God directly,
00:11:38.96\00:11:42.46
as individuals, without
interference from government.
00:11:42.46\00:11:46.80
It's not that the early church
00:11:46.80\00:11:48.30
didn't have a
problem with heresy,
00:11:48.30\00:11:49.80
because obviously they did.
00:11:49.80\00:11:51.91
Even a brief glance
through some of Paul's letters
00:11:51.91\00:11:54.68
makes that obvious.
00:11:54.68\00:11:56.54
But here's the difference,
00:11:56.54\00:11:58.41
they weren't
condemning heretics to death,
00:11:58.41\00:12:01.08
and they weren't leveraging
the power of the state
00:12:01.08\00:12:04.05
to get rid of
people they didn't like.
00:12:04.05\00:12:05.99
But then after Constantine,
00:12:07.26\00:12:08.69
things began to
change in the West,
00:12:08.69\00:12:10.69
and Christian clergy were
suddenly showered with favor,
00:12:10.69\00:12:13.90
and they were given
the powers of state,
00:12:13.90\00:12:17.20
and that created a
path that led straight
00:12:17.20\00:12:19.63
to the Spanish Inquisition,
00:12:19.63\00:12:21.24
and the other embarrassing
chapters of Christian history.
00:12:21.24\00:12:24.74
So Thomas Paine was right,
00:12:24.74\00:12:26.88
religion is seldom a problem,
00:12:26.88\00:12:28.88
unless it becomes
established by law.
00:12:28.88\00:12:32.31
What we have in this country,
00:12:32.31\00:12:33.95
and in many
other liberal democracy
00:12:33.95\00:12:35.68
since the birth of America,
00:12:35.68\00:12:37.95
is the freedom to
exercise our religious beliefs
00:12:37.95\00:12:40.42
without the
state deciding for us.
00:12:40.42\00:12:43.19
There is no official
state religion, not today.
00:12:43.19\00:12:47.23
And honestly, it's
really, really important
00:12:47.23\00:12:50.23
that it stays this way.
00:12:50.23\00:12:52.00
I know a lot of people think,
00:12:52.00\00:12:53.50
but the early founders
were profoundly Christian,
00:12:53.50\00:12:56.71
there's a
modicum of truth to that,
00:12:56.71\00:12:58.61
because some of them
were devout Christians
00:12:58.61\00:13:01.14
in the sense that
modern evangelicals
00:13:01.14\00:13:03.04
might understand that word,
00:13:03.04\00:13:05.18
but many of them were deists,
00:13:05.18\00:13:06.61
and some of them
were outright infidels.
00:13:06.61\00:13:09.58
And yes, they used the
ideas of Protestant reformers,
00:13:09.58\00:13:13.19
and English dissenters to
help draft the Bill Of Rights,
00:13:13.19\00:13:17.09
but they were also adamant
00:13:17.09\00:13:18.43
that individuals
should be free to follow God,
00:13:18.43\00:13:20.50
however the individual sees fit,
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.83
which would mean not following
God, if that's what you want.
00:13:23.83\00:13:28.37
That's why the
Constitution is very specific
00:13:28.37\00:13:30.84
when it says
that no religious test
00:13:30.84\00:13:32.74
shall ever be required as a
qualification to any office,
00:13:32.74\00:13:36.64
or public trust
under the United States.
00:13:36.64\00:13:40.02
Compared to the
rest of the world,
00:13:41.18\00:13:43.08
America is an openly Christian
country, profoundly so,
00:13:43.08\00:13:47.56
and it did use
biblical principles
00:13:47.56\00:13:49.66
as one of the foundations
for the Constitution,
00:13:49.66\00:13:52.79
combined with good ideas
from classical civilization.
00:13:52.79\00:13:56.93
But at the same
time you'll notice,
00:13:56.93\00:13:58.53
that it wasn't founded
00:13:58.53\00:13:59.73
on any particular
flavor of Christianity,
00:13:59.73\00:14:02.54
perhaps apart from
broad Protestant principles.
00:14:02.54\00:14:06.31
And that's a good thing,
00:14:06.31\00:14:07.88
because I mean, let's be honest,
00:14:07.88\00:14:09.24
most of you wouldn't want me
00:14:09.24\00:14:10.68
to organize your
religious beliefs,
00:14:10.68\00:14:12.51
and I don't wanna
live by your ideas either.
00:14:12.51\00:14:15.75
All of us need
to be perfectly free
00:14:15.75\00:14:17.49
to read the scriptures
and decide for ourselves
00:14:17.49\00:14:21.36
how we'd like to respond.
00:14:21.36\00:14:23.69
Which brings me back to
the matter of Christians
00:14:23.69\00:14:26.09
asserting their rights.
00:14:26.09\00:14:28.26
We do have the right,
under the First Amendment,
00:14:28.26\00:14:30.63
to assemble
peaceably and speak our minds.
00:14:30.63\00:14:33.07
And the government
does not have the right
00:14:33.07\00:14:35.07
to prohibit the free
exercise of religion.
00:14:35.07\00:14:38.34
You get to decide what
you're going to believe,
00:14:38.34\00:14:40.51
and how you're
going to apply it.
00:14:40.51\00:14:42.34
And believe me,
00:14:42.34\00:14:43.88
there are lots of Christians
in other parts of the world
00:14:43.88\00:14:45.75
that would love to
have a First Amendment,
00:14:45.75\00:14:48.28
because they do not have
the freedom that we have.
00:14:48.28\00:14:52.19
I'm thinking about
Christians in China,
00:14:52.19\00:14:54.39
or Myanmar or other places
where living the Christian faith
00:14:54.39\00:14:58.33
can actually be
hazardous to your health.
00:14:58.33\00:15:02.10
But you know, I also
find it a little disturbing
00:15:02.10\00:15:05.57
when Christians go
beyond enjoying their freedom
00:15:05.57\00:15:07.94
to expressing outrage,
00:15:07.94\00:15:09.50
and demanding that
people bow to their wishes.
00:15:09.50\00:15:12.47
I mean, yes, we do
have the freedom to worship,
00:15:12.47\00:15:16.08
and it's guaranteed in writing,
00:15:16.08\00:15:19.05
but the tendency
for some Christians
00:15:19.05\00:15:21.28
to demand things
from everybody else,
00:15:21.28\00:15:23.99
that's a relatively
new development here.
00:15:23.99\00:15:26.35
Let me use a rather touchy case,
00:15:27.42\00:15:28.96
one that's still, well, pretty
raw in most people's minds.
00:15:28.96\00:15:32.39
In fact, there's almost no
way for me to talk about this
00:15:32.39\00:15:35.33
without making
somebody mad, but here we go.
00:15:35.33\00:15:39.30
Over the course of the pandemic,
00:15:39.30\00:15:41.04
I went to a lot of
virtual church meetings,
00:15:41.04\00:15:43.64
because public
gatherings had been banned
00:15:43.64\00:15:46.34
just about everywhere.
00:15:46.34\00:15:48.98
And on a number of occasions,
I had church members tell me,
00:15:48.98\00:15:51.75
"We're not gonna stop meeting
or practice social distancing
00:15:51.75\00:15:54.42
"because it's our
right to gather for worship."
00:15:54.42\00:15:57.95
And of course it
really is our right.
00:15:57.95\00:16:00.76
But here's what I
want you to think about,
00:16:00.76\00:16:02.09
at what point do
Christians consider
00:16:02.09\00:16:03.83
whether it's more
important to preach the gospel,
00:16:03.83\00:16:07.13
or assert our rights?
00:16:07.13\00:16:09.16
Now, if the government had
specifically targeted churches
00:16:09.16\00:16:11.97
and said only
Christians may not meet,
00:16:11.97\00:16:14.64
that'd be one thing,
00:16:14.64\00:16:15.87
then I probably
would defy the government,
00:16:15.87\00:16:17.71
just like Daniel did.
00:16:17.71\00:16:19.54
If they had said,
00:16:19.54\00:16:20.74
"You may not teach
your message anywhere,
00:16:20.74\00:16:22.41
"including on the internet,"
that would be a problem.
00:16:22.41\00:16:26.11
But the closures
over the last few years
00:16:26.11\00:16:28.32
affected just about everybody,
00:16:28.32\00:16:29.82
restaurants, bars, theaters,
barbershops, you name it.
00:16:29.82\00:16:33.86
It wasn't exactly
singling out Christians,
00:16:33.86\00:16:36.39
but a lot of
Christians felt like it was,
00:16:36.39\00:16:38.99
and they behaved like it was.
00:16:38.99\00:16:41.26
Now, whether or not you believe
00:16:42.23\00:16:44.27
that public health
measures were effective,
00:16:44.27\00:16:46.17
is completely beside the point.
00:16:46.17\00:16:48.57
The closures were by and
large a public health measure
00:16:48.57\00:16:51.31
that wasn't targeting
any group specifically
00:16:51.31\00:16:54.41
because of its
religious beliefs.
00:16:54.41\00:16:56.98
Now, it's true that
sometimes the measures
00:16:56.98\00:16:59.55
were unevenly applied,
00:16:59.55\00:17:01.05
so that bars had fewer
restrictions than churches,
00:17:01.05\00:17:04.32
and well, that
would be a problem.
00:17:04.32\00:17:06.59
And in hindsight, there
were probably a lot of things
00:17:06.59\00:17:08.82
that could have
been done better,
00:17:08.82\00:17:11.06
but one thinks for
sure this wasn't really
00:17:11.06\00:17:13.46
about targeting Christians.
00:17:13.46\00:17:15.36
Now, I know some people
strongly feel that it was,
00:17:15.36\00:17:17.80
as if the public
health orders were somehow
00:17:17.80\00:17:20.00
the mark of the beast,
00:17:20.00\00:17:21.77
but let's be
honest, up till now,
00:17:21.77\00:17:23.24
nobody was specifically
targeting Christians by law.
00:17:23.24\00:17:28.14
And yet a lot of
believers spent a lot of time
00:17:29.51\00:17:30.75
getting worked up and
demanding their rights.
00:17:30.75\00:17:33.18
And yes, again, we absolutely
have the right to worship.
00:17:33.18\00:17:36.82
And yes, I'm also
concerned about the possibility
00:17:36.82\00:17:39.79
of government
overreach, I really am.
00:17:39.79\00:17:42.69
And there are
some things going on
00:17:42.69\00:17:44.23
that make me really,
really uncomfortable,
00:17:44.23\00:17:47.23
but that's not the
point I'm getting at.
00:17:47.23\00:17:50.00
What I want to
talk about is the optics
00:17:50.00\00:17:51.83
of how Christians behave.
00:17:51.83\00:17:53.94
I remember getting a phone
call from a police officer,
00:17:53.94\00:17:56.24
who was not a
practicing Christian,
00:17:56.24\00:17:58.61
and he asked me just one thing,
00:17:58.61\00:18:00.24
"What in the world is
wrong with you people?"
00:18:00.24\00:18:03.01
"What do you mean?" I said.
00:18:03.01\00:18:04.28
"Well," he said,
00:18:04.28\00:18:05.75
"it always seems like
it's the religious people
00:18:05.75\00:18:07.02
"who are the most
difficult to deal with."
00:18:07.02\00:18:09.95
He'd been dealing with churches
that refused to cooperate
00:18:09.95\00:18:12.65
with public health measures,
00:18:12.65\00:18:13.89
and well, he
found it bewildering.
00:18:13.89\00:18:16.32
"Why is it," he said, "that
you Christians just don't care."
00:18:16.32\00:18:20.16
Now again, maybe you
believe that you have the right
00:18:21.53\00:18:23.80
to worship in large groups,
00:18:23.80\00:18:25.10
no matter what the
health department says,
00:18:25.10\00:18:26.97
I'm not gonna argue
about that, maybe you're right.
00:18:26.97\00:18:30.77
But I am going to
plead with Christians
00:18:30.77\00:18:32.71
to think about
what's most important
00:18:32.71\00:18:34.41
in our devotion to Christ.
00:18:34.41\00:18:36.48
What are we
actually doing in this world,
00:18:36.48\00:18:38.65
and how are we representing
the attitude and faith of Christ
00:18:38.65\00:18:41.65
in front of everybody else?
00:18:41.65\00:18:43.79
And I get it,
00:18:43.79\00:18:45.19
the pandemic is a
super sensitive topic,
00:18:45.19\00:18:47.96
and some of you
are absolutely appalled
00:18:47.96\00:18:49.82
that I'm talking about it.
00:18:49.82\00:18:51.33
And I'm sure some of you are
tempted to change the station
00:18:51.33\00:18:53.73
or write me a letter,
00:18:53.73\00:18:55.16
but I guess I
can live with that,
00:18:55.16\00:18:56.43
because what I really
want is for Christians
00:18:56.43\00:18:58.93
to think about why
we do the things we do.
00:18:58.93\00:19:02.94
So here's what I'm gonna do.
00:19:02.94\00:19:04.37
It looks like it's time
for another quick break,
00:19:04.37\00:19:06.21
and when I come back,
00:19:06.21\00:19:07.71
we're going to take a look
at ancient Christian history
00:19:07.71\00:19:09.88
to see what kinds of
issues they were worried about,
00:19:09.88\00:19:12.88
and how they handled
the almost daily violation
00:19:12.88\00:19:16.12
of their personal rights.
00:19:16.12\00:19:17.82
So hang tight,
because in a minute
00:19:17.82\00:19:20.02
I'll be back
with a whole lot more.
00:19:20.02\00:19:21.82
- [Narrator] Here at
the Voice of Prophecy,
00:19:25.13\00:19:26.59
we're committed to
creating top quality programming
00:19:26.59\00:19:28.90
for the whole family.
00:19:28.90\00:19:30.37
Like our audio adventure
series, Discovery Mountain.
00:19:30.37\00:19:33.54
Discovery Mountain
is a bible-based program
00:19:33.54\00:19:36.00
for kids of all
ages and backgrounds.
00:19:36.00\00:19:38.34
Your family will enjoy
the faith building stories
00:19:38.34\00:19:41.11
from this small
mountain summer camp and town.
00:19:41.11\00:19:43.98
With 24 seasonal
episodes every year,
00:19:43.98\00:19:46.48
and fresh content every week,
00:19:46.48\00:19:48.62
there's always a new
adventure just on the horizon.
00:19:48.62\00:19:51.82
- Christian apologetics is
the art of defending the faith,
00:19:55.42\00:19:58.39
explaining to
non-Christians who we are,
00:19:58.39\00:20:00.96
and what we believe.
00:20:00.96\00:20:03.43
Now traditionally, a
lot of Christian apologists
00:20:03.43\00:20:06.57
have dedicated themselves
00:20:06.57\00:20:07.80
to trying to
prove that God exists.
00:20:07.80\00:20:10.11
Some people like
Augustine were rationalists,
00:20:10.11\00:20:13.11
and they tried to reason their
way to the existence of God.
00:20:13.11\00:20:16.85
Other people like Thomas
Aquinas were empiricists,
00:20:16.85\00:20:20.02
they tried to
demonstrate the reality of God
00:20:20.02\00:20:22.48
by just appealing to
the evidence of our senses.
00:20:22.48\00:20:26.29
But at the very
beginning of the church,
00:20:26.29\00:20:28.12
in the earliest years,
00:20:28.12\00:20:29.79
a lot of the most
important apologists
00:20:29.79\00:20:31.79
were doing something else.
00:20:31.79\00:20:33.56
They were trying to
explain to the Roman Empire
00:20:33.56\00:20:35.76
that they were wrong in
their perception of Christians.
00:20:35.76\00:20:39.73
For the most part,
00:20:39.73\00:20:41.04
and this is
probably gonna surprise you,
00:20:41.04\00:20:42.94
the Romans thought the
Christians were atheists,
00:20:42.94\00:20:45.54
because they
didn't have have statues,
00:20:45.54\00:20:47.71
and they refused to
acknowledge the pagan gods.
00:20:47.71\00:20:51.01
And that made
Christians seem like a threat
00:20:51.01\00:20:53.75
to the stability of the Empire.
00:20:53.75\00:20:56.38
In addition to that, because
Christians were different,
00:20:56.38\00:20:59.25
nasty rumors
started to circulate.
00:20:59.25\00:21:02.06
Christians, for example,
00:21:02.06\00:21:03.32
symbolically
ingest the blood of Christ
00:21:03.32\00:21:05.83
when they drink the wine
of the communion service,
00:21:05.83\00:21:07.93
so the Romans said
they must be cannibals.
00:21:07.93\00:21:11.87
Christians called each
other brother and sister,
00:21:11.87\00:21:14.50
and participated in love feasts,
00:21:14.50\00:21:16.84
another term for
the communion service,
00:21:16.84\00:21:18.97
so the Romans
accused them of incest.
00:21:18.97\00:21:22.84
So what we find in the writings
00:21:22.84\00:21:24.85
of the early
Christian Apologists
00:21:24.85\00:21:26.58
is an attempt to clear the air.
00:21:26.58\00:21:29.02
Take for example, the
work of Justin Martyr,
00:21:29.02\00:21:31.59
who was killed for
his Christian faith
00:21:31.59\00:21:33.69
in the second century.
00:21:33.69\00:21:35.59
Before his execution,
00:21:35.59\00:21:37.26
he was very influential
with the Roman Emperor,
00:21:37.26\00:21:40.70
and from what we can tell,
00:21:40.70\00:21:42.20
he managed to dial back
the persecution of Christians.
00:21:42.20\00:21:45.67
And the way he did
that was important,
00:21:45.67\00:21:48.20
he did not make demands,
00:21:48.20\00:21:50.47
even though one of the subtitles
in his first apology is,
00:21:50.47\00:21:54.58
'Demand for Justice.'
00:21:54.58\00:21:56.71
But when you read it,
you find this well read,
00:21:56.71\00:21:59.41
knowledgeable Christian,
00:21:59.41\00:22:00.72
who makes a rational
appeal to the Emperor
00:22:00.72\00:22:03.28
to treat Christians
like everybody else.
00:22:03.28\00:22:06.65
Here's what he wrote.
00:22:06.65\00:22:08.36
"For we have come not to
flatter you by this writing,
00:22:08.36\00:22:11.09
"nor to please you by
our address, but to beg."
00:22:11.09\00:22:14.76
Notice that word.
00:22:14.76\00:22:16.36
"To beg that you pass judgment
00:22:16.36\00:22:18.93
"after an accurate and
searching investigation,
00:22:18.93\00:22:21.90
"not flattered by prejudice,
00:22:21.90\00:22:23.61
"or by a desire of
pleasing superstitious men,
00:22:23.61\00:22:27.04
"nor induced by
irrational impulse,
00:22:27.04\00:22:29.41
"or evil rumors which
have long been prevalent,
00:22:29.41\00:22:32.88
"to give a
decision which will prove
00:22:32.88\00:22:34.55
"to be against yourselves.
00:22:34.55\00:22:36.62
"For as for us, we reckon
that no evil can be done us,
00:22:36.62\00:22:39.65
"unless we be
convicted as evil doers,
00:22:39.65\00:22:42.36
"or prove to be wicked men.
00:22:42.36\00:22:44.16
"And you, you can
kill but not hurt us."
00:22:44.16\00:22:48.96
He was partially quoting
the words of Jesus who said,
00:22:48.96\00:22:51.57
"Do not fear
those who kill the body,
00:22:51.57\00:22:53.97
"but cannot kill the soul."
00:22:53.97\00:22:57.01
Because you see,
00:22:57.01\00:22:58.74
no matter what laws are passed,
00:22:58.74\00:23:00.48
no matter who comes to power,
00:23:00.48\00:23:02.54
no matter how much the rights
of Christians get trampled,
00:23:02.54\00:23:06.28
nobody has the power to
take you away from Christ.
00:23:06.28\00:23:10.05
"For I am
persuaded," Paul wrote,
00:23:10.05\00:23:11.82
"that neither death nor life,
00:23:11.82\00:23:13.46
"nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers,
00:23:13.46\00:23:16.42
"nor things
present, nor things to come,
00:23:16.42\00:23:18.43
"nor height, nor depth,
nor any other created thing
00:23:18.43\00:23:22.13
"shall be able to separate
us from the love of God,
00:23:22.13\00:23:25.80
"which is in
Christ Jesus our Lord."
00:23:25.80\00:23:28.14
Justin Martyr didn't
demand that the Emperor
00:23:29.27\00:23:31.97
become a Christian.
00:23:31.97\00:23:33.27
He didn't demand
that the Roman Empire
00:23:33.27\00:23:35.88
adopt a Christian worldview,
00:23:35.88\00:23:38.35
but he did appeal to the Emperor
00:23:38.35\00:23:40.25
to consider Christianity,
00:23:40.25\00:23:42.32
and investigate its claims
00:23:42.32\00:23:44.42
without any hint of establishing
some kind of theocracy.
00:23:44.42\00:23:49.19
And that's how it was with
most of the early apologists,
00:23:49.19\00:23:52.13
they simply
appealed to the pagans
00:23:52.13\00:23:54.30
to reconsider the untrue rumors,
00:23:54.30\00:23:57.20
and stop putting
Christians to death.
00:23:57.20\00:23:59.87
Here's another example,
00:24:00.94\00:24:02.27
this time from the
writings of Athenagoras,
00:24:02.27\00:24:04.17
a second century
Christian apologist
00:24:04.17\00:24:06.34
who wrote a letter to
the Emperor, Marcus Aurelius.
00:24:06.34\00:24:09.94
First he mentions how
kind and great the Emperor is,
00:24:09.94\00:24:13.85
and then after
mentioning how the Emperor
00:24:13.85\00:24:15.95
has a benevolent
disposition toward everybody,
00:24:15.95\00:24:19.05
he points out that Christians
appear to be an exception.
00:24:19.05\00:24:22.19
Here's what he wrote.
00:24:22.19\00:24:23.79
"But for us who
are called Christians,
00:24:23.79\00:24:25.59
"you have not in
like manner cared,
00:24:25.59\00:24:28.00
"but although
we commit no wrong,
00:24:28.00\00:24:29.80
"nay, as will appear in
the sequel of this discourse,
00:24:29.80\00:24:32.70
"are of all men most
piously and righteously disposed
00:24:32.70\00:24:36.34
"toward the Deity and
towards your government."
00:24:36.34\00:24:39.37
In other words,
he was pointing out
00:24:39.37\00:24:41.01
that Christians model citizens.
00:24:41.01\00:24:43.41
"You allow us to be harassed,
plundered, and persecuted,
00:24:43.41\00:24:46.88
"the multitude
making war upon us
00:24:46.88\00:24:48.98
"for our name alone.
00:24:48.98\00:24:50.52
"We venture
therefore to lay a statement
00:24:50.52\00:24:52.55
"of our case before you,
00:24:52.55\00:24:53.82
"and you will
learn from this discourse
00:24:53.82\00:24:55.66
"that we suffer unjustly,
00:24:55.66\00:24:57.36
"and contrary to
all law and reason,
00:24:57.36\00:25:00.26
"and we beseech you to bestow
00:25:00.26\00:25:02.13
"some
consideration upon us also,
00:25:02.13\00:25:05.00
"that we may cease at
length to be slaughtered
00:25:05.00\00:25:07.44
"at the
instigation of false accusers."
00:25:07.44\00:25:11.04
Now, compare that to the way
00:25:11.04\00:25:13.17
that some modern
Christians behave,
00:25:13.17\00:25:14.78
and it really does
give you pause to think.
00:25:14.78\00:25:17.81
I'll be right back after this.
00:25:17.81\00:25:20.02
- [Announcer] Dragons,
beasts, cryptic statues,
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Bible prophecy can be
incredibly vivid, and confusing.
00:25:28.39\00:25:32.99
If you've ever read
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00:25:32.99\00:25:35.16
and come away scratching
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00:25:35.16\00:25:38.17
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00:25:38.17\00:25:40.57
are designed to help you unlock
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00:25:40.57\00:25:43.34
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00:25:43.34\00:25:46.34
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00:25:46.34\00:25:47.51
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00:25:49.88\00:25:52.78
- Well, again, it looks like
I've been long-winded as usual,
00:25:54.18\00:25:57.52
so maybe I'll
just wrap up with this,
00:25:57.52\00:25:59.15
a statement from a
man who clearly understood
00:25:59.15\00:26:01.56
what it was like to
have his rights trampled.
00:26:01.56\00:26:04.29
Paul was once a
member of the Sanhedrin,
00:26:04.29\00:26:07.03
and a Roman citizen,
00:26:07.03\00:26:08.93
and he studied at the
feet of the great Gamaliel,
00:26:08.93\00:26:11.50
one of the most revered
teachers of the ancient world,
00:26:11.50\00:26:14.74
and yet he was treated abysmally
00:26:14.74\00:26:16.77
just about everywhere he went.
00:26:16.77\00:26:18.81
So what's his advice
00:26:18.81\00:26:20.31
when it comes to relating
to people that don't like us?
00:26:20.31\00:26:23.04
Well, here it is.
00:26:23.04\00:26:24.28
In his letter to the
Colossians, he writes,
00:26:24.28\00:26:26.78
"Walk in wisdom
toward those who are outside,
00:26:26.78\00:26:29.92
"redeeming the time.
00:26:29.92\00:26:31.49
"Let your speech always be
with grace, seasoned with salt,
00:26:31.49\00:26:34.86
"that you may know how
you ought to answer each one."
00:26:34.86\00:26:38.86
This is why burning a Quran
in the parking lot is wrong.
00:26:38.86\00:26:42.86
This is why
picketing funerals is wrong.
00:26:42.86\00:26:46.10
This is why asserting
ourselves in the marketplace
00:26:46.10\00:26:49.20
under the assumption that we
00:26:49.20\00:26:50.64
are the most important
segment of society is wrong.
00:26:50.64\00:26:54.91
Some of us want
our speech to be salty,
00:26:54.91\00:26:57.41
but the Bible's counsel is
to season our speech with grace.
00:26:57.41\00:27:02.42
What we need to
ask ourselves is this,
00:27:03.59\00:27:04.89
what's more important,
00:27:04.89\00:27:06.49
the kingdoms of this world,
00:27:06.49\00:27:08.29
or the kingdom of Christ?
00:27:08.29\00:27:10.16
What have we been
asked to do as a church?
00:27:10.16\00:27:12.49
Seize the reins of government,
and force people to listen.
00:27:12.49\00:27:16.30
Or have we been
asked to persuade people,
00:27:16.30\00:27:18.43
and make disciples.
00:27:18.43\00:27:20.07
And how can we
possibly make disciples
00:27:20.07\00:27:23.44
unless we ourselves
are disciples of Christ?
00:27:23.44\00:27:27.54
Maybe there's a
reason we're losing
00:27:27.54\00:27:28.98
our audience here in the West.
00:27:28.98\00:27:30.91
Maybe we just don't look
and sound like Jesus anymore.
00:27:30.91\00:27:35.08
Maybe it's time to get
back to the basics of faith,
00:27:35.08\00:27:37.72
and quit complicating
it with political pursuits,
00:27:37.72\00:27:40.72
and maybe it's time to recapture
00:27:40.72\00:27:42.56
the humble spirit of Christ
00:27:42.56\00:27:44.59
"For you know the grace
of our Lord Jesus Christ,"
00:27:44.59\00:27:47.10
Paul wrote, "that
though he was rich,
00:27:47.10\00:27:48.86
"yet for your
sakes he became poor,
00:27:48.86\00:27:51.33
"that you through his
poverty might become rich."
00:27:51.33\00:27:55.40
Thanks for listening.
00:27:56.24\00:27:57.44
Until next time,
I'm Shawn Boonstra,
00:27:57.44\00:28:00.21
and this has been, Authentic.
00:28:00.21\00:28:02.94
[dramatic music]
00:28:02.94\00:28:05.68